Oh, and regarding the Erik Mona vs J- Jacobs thing:
If S.G. had actually read what I wrote, he would know that I do realize my theory regarding Mona vs. Jacobs is mostly wishful thinking.
I said I WISH there was a behind the scenes conflict. Because if there is not, than everything Erik Mona said regarding 4e and old-school/Spirit of D&D is just...marketing and has nothing to do with the truth.
If Haldefast had actually read what I wrote he wouldn't be claiming that the encounters I mentioned in ToD were intended to be resolved with the sword. In fact, no mention of killing said monsters was ever made at all.
Guess we're even now.
Can we still be friends? :)
Thank you again, for proving that none of you understands what a strategic challenge is.
I'm sorry Haldefast, I must have gotten strategic chllenge mixed up with up with President Bush's strategery you know A dangerous plan is better than no plan.
Instead of mocking old modules, you might want to take a look at them.
Lets say the Companion modules for BECMI. That might give you a head start on strategic level playing, and concise writing.
This point allows me to make a suggestion to you, Haldefast: if you don't like the way adventures are written now, spend some time writing ones structured the way you like. If, as you say, there are plenty of people unhappy with the way things are currently written, you could really start a shift in gaming.
We've seen it happen in the last few years with adventure paths. Everyone seems to like the sort of "1 through 20 in a box" types of campaigns, which explains why mega-dungeons and prewritten campaigns are all the rage. I remember having to pick through adventures carefully, tying them together in creative ways in order to make a sensible campaign story running from 1st level to high level. Now I just go buy a book (Shackled City, World's Largest Dungeon), buy a boxed set (Rappan Athuk, Ptolus) or subscribe to a magazine (Pathfinder, AoW, STAP) and I get it. Very easy, and also very popular.
Probably it won't last: the industry will move in another direction, and 10 years from now we'll all look back and say, "Hey, do remember when everyone was coming out with campaign-long adventure paths? Man, those were the old days! But now we've got _____!"
Maybe this new thing is the tactical/strategic open-ended play that you support. The best way to get that is to write it and put it out there.
What doesn't help is just griping about how you wish things would be the way you like. If you aren't willing to commit to your belief by writing and supporting those kinds of adventures, you can't really complain when people respond to you with an attitude of "if all you're going to do is whine, take it somewhere else."
Many people in your shoes might find excuses, like "I don't have the skill to write" (then practice) or "I don't have time to write." This last one rarely holds any water with me: it's just a matter of being committed to doing it. I know people who have full time jobs, full time school, families, and *still* they find time to write adventures just the way they like.
If it's really important to you, and it seems like this is, do something about it. Don't just gripe, write the kind of stuff to open our eyes and show us how things can be so much better than the STAP. If I like it, I'll be the first one to say, "Haldefast, you told us so!"
This is just smurfing resmurfulous. Exposition is not smurfroading. You're just trying to cause a smurfing smurf war. This smurf's for you, buddy.
I've got my smurfing board ready to go. Can someone put some sun tan lotion on my back? I don't want to get burned while I'm in the Green Room, dude. Hang ten, brah!
Ah-hah! My lurking secretly on these boards for so long has paid off. I now understand what my audience wants in 4e:
1. Less passive-aggressive whining.
2. SMURFS!!!
LOL
Well, I've never run something published as it was written, and that's partially due to the sentiments you've aired.
Get a new DM.
Well said.
If this is going all 'Smurfy', can we get the Vomit Guy here too?
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Kvetching, posturing, self-satisfied prigishness, ignoring anything substantive anyone had to say
Dude, really, just stamp your little foot petulantly, stick your fingers in your ears (at best) and say "La! La! La! I can't hear you! Doody-heads!" It will save space. Otherwise, off you your little bridge.
2. SMURFS!!!
Does this mean we'll get the Great Book of Smurfs, including a sourcebook full of hooks where we always face the same bad guy at the end of every episo - er, adventure? Smurfy keen smurfy cool!
RPG Superstar 2013 Top 32
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2. SMURFS!!!Does this mean we'll get the Great Book of Smurfs, including a sourcebook full of hooks where we always face the same bad guy at the end of every episo - er, adventure? Smurfy keen smurfy cool!
Yeah, the Smurfs series was a total railroad. I mean, the DM was obviously way too attached to that Gargamel character. It seems like just about every encounter involved him in some way. Sheesh.
Good luck with your games, Haldefast.
Penultimate bowl of balls.
El Skootro
If this is going all 'Smurfy', can we get the Vomit Guy here too?
Vomit guy is officially my favorite Paizonian. He should write the next AP. Unlike these pampered primadonna bullpen wannabes, Vomit Guy actually gets the spirit of D&D.
If this is going all 'Smurfy', can we get the Vomit Guy here too?Vomit guy is officially my favorite Paizonian. He should write the next AP. Unlike these pampered primadonna bullpen wannabes, Vomit Guy actually gets the spirit of D&D.
Ya know, I happen to know Vomit Guy and he's really... um... vomitty.
Haldefast, this discussion seems to be dealing with two separate issues.
From your statements, you felt that the first scenarios of the Savage Tide Adventure Path left the player characters with few options other than combat and following the "clue trail" and saw the structure as supporting a repetitive "fight, loot, fight..." cycle.
As the responses that you've received must suggest, many people disagree with your perception. I know that I didn't see these scenarios that way. I was enthused by the opportunity to plug elements of "Lost Shrine of Tamoachan" into the campaign, and didn't see the limited encounter described by the author as the group's only option.
The authors of the Paizo scenarios aren't able to anticipate the needs and tastes of every group: They are forced to take a lowest-common denominator approach to many situations. The encounter with the phanatons is an excellent example of that. By throwing the PCs into a dangerous situation where they can help the phanatons, the author facilitates an alliance that might not otherwise happen. Certainly, it's contrived, but how often do PC groups spontaneously ally themselves with strange creatures they met by chance? Without a reason to trust each other, the party and the phanatons are likely to ignore each other.
Your group may be excellent, your DM may be excellent, but something is wrong if you're frustrated with an adventure series. Your feeling is that the scenarios themselves are poorly conceived, an accusation that the authors and editors naturally resent and disagree with. They did the best that they could, but no scenario will suit everybody that plays it.
The second issue that has entangled this thread is one of disrespect. Your posts can seem very inflammatory. You may not read them as such, but it's hard to tell what you're trying to accomplish. If you're critiquing the adventure path and offering suggestions for what you would like to see in future adventures, please remember that these people worked hard on the adventures you think so little of. They feel insulted when you criticize their efforts. When your words are perceived as being disrespectful, they are naturally going to defend themselves.
BUT: I am also angry at the two adventures before yours. They were railroads in the literal sense, whereas your adventure mostly lacked any intellectual, roleplayng or tactical depth, but left us the choice of the order in which we approach the sub-encounters.
You have to admit that you wrote that in anger. How can you expect to achieve anything with such inflammatory writing?
Haldefast, what do you want to accomplish here? If you think Paizo's authors should do things differently, consider their reasons for the "railroady" structure that irritates you and then suggest what you would do instead. Comparisons like "look at Fortress Badabaskor" don't really help much. I love some of the old-school Judges' Guild material, but their structure is very different from the plot-based adventures that you dislike. If there's a way to reconcile those differences, explain your ideas how. There's no one here that couldn't potentially benefit from different ways to approach writing and DMing.
Oh, and regarding the Erik Mona vs J- Jacobs thing:
If S.G. had actually read what I wrote, he would know that I do realize my theory regarding Mona vs. Jacobs is mostly wishful thinking.
I said I WISH there was a behind the scenes conflict. Because if there is not, than everything Erik Mona said regarding 4e and old-school/Spirit of D&D is just...marketing and has nothing to do with the truth.
So tell us Haldefast, what do you think the truth is?
No no no. You guys don't get it! This thread is so, like, 20 minutes ago man. The Smurf Brigade is here! That's all that matters now! Leave Gargamel to his vomiting.
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The truth:Paizo is catering to an audience of reactive tactical thinkers, who let themselves be blinded by appearances without thinking too much on their own.
I WISH that Erik Mona is not on that steam-train, thusly I fantasize myself into the land of wishful thinking. I HOPE Erik does not endorse that ...style...maybe he does.
Then there is no saviour.
No one will bring back sanity to D&D.
The strongholds of goood taste will enlengthen the battle.
But if Paizo AND WotC go down that primitive "per encounter"-avenue, I won t be able nor willing to follow.
Its undying. Like some shambling zombie climbing out of the grave. And my gods, its spouting cliche and tired metaphors! Run!
Of course this is a 4e zombie so not only does it attack but it mobs you, dragging you to the ground.
Or perhaps it is some foul demon. It tells you its going only to come back and torture you more. How terrible!
I am a big storytelling fan. I like Paizo. I am not even sure you know what you are saying when you claim the Paizo fanbase is "an audience of reactive tactical thinkers". Paizo has been really good at providing a number of adventures that appeal to all tastes. I am not an idiot like you presume. According to you I have bad taste. Well, if you represent good taste I think I would rather be tacky thank you very much. Oh, and I have been gaming since 1984. I think I have a good idea what old school means to me. Paizo does a fantastic job of upholding that idea.
Damn! I fed the troll. Sorry....sorry about that.
Well, feast little trollie, feast away.
Come smurf brigade. Help fix the mistake I made with my inability to keep my mouth shut. Scare the nasty troll away.
Smurf it right outta here!
Ok. I have a few questions.
...reactive tactical thinkers...
1. What do you mean by the phrase above?
...who let themselves be blinded by appearances without thinking too much on their own.
2. What appearances are they allowing themselves to be blinded by?
3. What are they being blinded to?
...I HOPE Erik does not endorse that ...style...
4. What style are you referring to.
I am just trying to get a clear idea of what you are trying to say because every time I think I understand what you are trying to get across I get confused again.
Hey! How do I get to be a smurf? I feel left out! Meanies.... =(
Smurfing smurf! I got it! Hurray! May the smurf be with you!
Something just occured to me. All of the trolls I have come across on these boards do not have an avatar. Just a name and some troll spew. It's like they cannot even be bothered to pick one. Sheesh. Picking an avatar was the most entertaining part of creating an account. Smurf!
Get an axe!Is it Smurfing dead?
Luckily I don't think it'll swallow my soul.
Is he saying that he's quitting D&D in favor of the new Muppet D20 system?
Wait! No, he's trying to show us what he looks like. Err... No! He IS a muppet! That explains why he can't be reasoned with. He was just a muppet all along. Now I get it. :)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ynjIoymWHvU
Now his argument makes sense. Whew! I thought I was only confused.
Am I going to get left out of the smurf love?
And I resent being called a troll. I just can't decide on a avatar pic. ;-)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ynjIoymWHvUNow his argument makes sense. Whew! I thought I was only confused.
Am I going to get left out of the smurf love?
And I resent being called a troll. I just can't decide on a avatar pic. ;-)
Well I guess that theory was smurfin' shot to hell. Oh well. But, I can understand. It took me a while to pick my avatar because like I said, I really enjoyed picking one. Smurf love all around.
Is he saying that he's quitting D&D in favor of the new Muppet D20 system?Aw, I was looking forward to that! I wanted to be Beaker! But if he's there, it's dead to me.
Who? The smurf? Didn't Sebastian suggest getting an axe? Where's that axe already!?