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Come off it - a single flask of oil is going to burn down the building? I think not. Let's start with the strictly practical - this is a building, made of logs, not twigs, on an island surrounded by water. So, you've got big logs, and wet at that. Your flask of oil is going to make smoke, not burn the place down.
Next (and this is intended for future shenanigans like this), where did they throw it from? Unless they were right on top of the place - in which case they've got goblins to deal with - they're hardly getting the best effect out of it. Again, they're not going to burn down even temporary structures that way, let alone buildings.
If they want to burn the thing down, they'll need a sustained fire, which involves setting something up to burn hot - carrying over tinder, setting it alight, and tending it for a while. If they want to go through this, they'll probably get a lot of attention, remembering how much goblins love fires.
Depending what you've already told them, I'd backtrack a bit. Give them the flames from the oil, and then say they burn out. If you want, feel free to describe a small black mark on the building. Oh, and the guards should be alerted, so they can stop torturing the birds and come to investigate.
Drew Garrett
I don't think the goblins would sit inside while their fort burns to the ground. They would either rush out to attack the party or escape into the underground parts and wait to ambush your party there.
Make it rain.
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It was several flasks of oil and a natural twenty. They threw to oil (like a fox-tail) onto a shielded and non-wet portion of the stockade. I made several rolls to see if the fire would be put out but no cigar. The goblins rushed out and, as goblins will be goblins, they rushed out onto their own booby-trapped bridge. One of the PCs is psionic, so he lit the oil with a fire-blast.
Making it rain is sooo cheating. ;-)
Portions of the Thistletop stronghold may have burnt, but remember:
1. Goblins are scatterbrained.
2. Goblins love fire.
Based on that, it's reasonable to rule that if the fortress could be burned down easily, it would have burned long ago.
In all likelihood, Thistletop has already had several fires in its history, which resulted in slipshod patches of stone, wattle and daub, and mud. Fires breaking out will burn until they hit one of these unintentional firebreaks, then will die out.
Here is how I would probably handle this situation.
It would quickly become obvious to the inhabitants that a fire broke out. Especially if one of the 'smarter' goblins went below to warn the group of intruders. Definately something that Ripnugget should have the intelligence/wisdom to do or maybe just dumb luck because of how he feels about Nualia. The solution I would use would be one of two options, depending on how 'evil' you wish to be to your players.
First option, there is nothing to say you can't handily install a scroll with three stone shape spells located beneath the fort. Probably not difficult to imagine for enimies embedded in a dungeon made of stone. It is a die roll for Nualia or Lyrie to be able to cast the spell off the scroll(s) but since the caster level could be six, this shouldn't be that hard (DMG pg. 238). The inhabitants below are sure to not easily give up the possibility of what lies below and may decide to lock themselves below using the stone shape spells. This would allow them to avoid any smoke that would permeate the levels below. If they are successful then when the characters search the rubble, you can make sure that the characters know that recently both passages leaving downward were closed from inside. When all seems clear you can have Nualia/Lyrie attempt to cast the final spell to allow themselves out (this may or may not work depending on the die roll).
This would be beneficial because the characters can realize what took place (possible spellcraft or very handy if you have a dwarf) and can realize that their brash actions cut them off from the depths of the base. There are many different ways for the adventurers to handle this situation but at the least it should teach them the disadvantages of hastily burning down the enemy stronghold.
This would be my personal favorite as I would then have the troops trapped below set an ambush en masse for the group whenever they return as it is obvious they are under attack.
Second option. It is rare that tombs were built without an escape route. Simply install one and allow the enemies to escape with the information they have only to return at a later time. During the parties couple of weeks off from the adventure, Shelelu can return to town and tell the adventurers that the fort was indeed burnt down but activity has resumed. (Could also happen if the party leaves while the stone shape spells are in place.) This should be enough to get the adventurers to return and face the rest of the badguys.
What I personally don't like about option two is it would make it difficult to kill the badguys upon return as they can once again make an escape through the "back door" however, this may not be an option for them as they don't want to leave the prize they feel is located within the dungeon. Smart adventurers might try to find the third entrance and seal it off before completing the dungeon.
As far as experience goes, I would award experience for defeating any goblins that they killed or ran off, but none of the experience for the bosses down below until they are dealt with.
Either way I would make sure that they had a difficult fight when they do eventually go below and if I used the second option I would probably install some 'alarm' spells to notify Nualia and her henchmen that they are once again under attack.
Hopefully this helps
I'd say as you restart the game, say something along the lines of..
"The raging inferno that you caused takes many minutes to die down, and when the smoke clears a vast section of the building has been burned to the ground..." and knock off the first few encounter rooms, with the rest on high alert.
It's not like they could have burned out the dungeon levels below either, goblins could have easily retreated there.
The AP made it quite clear that starting a fire is moot since all brush and wood is saturated with the cold, damp moisture of an area infested with frequent foggy conditions on the coast. I remember trying to start a fire with a stack of old magazines, and I couldn't do diddly quat with oil either. I had a means to keep the source of the fire burning, but I only managed to char the outside. If something has been treated to resist flames, I'd imagine it'd survive; 20 or not when it comes to aim. As far as distance and a natural 20, would that mean a PC could hit the moon if a natural 20 is rolled? What goes on behind the DM screen doesn't need to be binding. Might as well chuck the DM screen.
As far as rolling with the punches, having gone ahead and declaring Thistletop burned to the ground, I'd imagine that they'd also kill Shadowmist and lose out on the reward and XP (they'd also kill Ameiko if she returned), and then they'd have to dig through the rubble to get to Naulia's gang, and or think the mission solved as her gang still manages to survive and plan stage two of their assault of Sandpoint.
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The plume of smoke would be large enough to be seen by all the goblin tribes. They'd come running to aid their new allies or (more likely) to loot and frolick in the chaos. Either way, the PCs would find themselves in the middle of a near riot within a few hours of burning down the fort. Nualia could capitalize by destroying the bridge (with shatter) and promising Thistletop to the tribe that brought her the PCs' heads (provided Ripnugget perished in the fire).
When you're the DM, you have be able to tell the players that their plan has no chance of succeeding. When they whine about die rolls, you just have to stand firm and tell them no.
The PCs should NEVER be able to defeat multiple encounters with one d20 check followed by a few "rolls" from the DM to see if the PCs get obscenely lucky. As others have pointed out, it makes no sense in this context because of the conditions around the fort.
It's one thing to avoid being too hard on the players and delighting in TPK's. But there's such a thing as being too easy on the players too.
For Shame, sir.
As far as XP rewards, you're in a tight spot. I don't think they deserve much. But if the PCs get no XP for the entire first floor of Thistletop, they will be a bit behind on leveling up for the rest of the AP unless you give them some side quests to "catch up".
Don't forget, the folks in the lower levels don't have to worry about smoke. They get plenty of fresh air because of the big hole in the side of the dungeon at the Tentamort lair. Truly desperate goblins could try to escape the fire by climbing down the cliffs and in through this entrance. If they charged in en masse or threw in a few birds first (or a dog), many of them would be able to get past the Tentamort while it was feeding on the first few unlucky souls.
My PCs tried this too, but the only goal they had was to create a diversion. They did a lot more than throw several flasks of oil. One of them (with a high Strength score) drank a potion of fly and dragged a bunch of burlap sacks each containing a quart of lamp oil and a flask of alchemist's fire along with her. They did this in the middle of the night, to try to lower visibility.
Hovering about a hundred feet above the island (to keep out of their darkvision range), she started by throwing a sack onto the western guard tower. I made her roll to hit, and included deductions for the wind. (I said that the weather was bad, and that it was raining. They'd asked for a vague forecast early on and were delighted by the rain, and factored it into their plan.) She hit the tower and a fire started, waking them up and startling the guards in the eastern tower (who received the second sack).
She dropped a bunch and threw some at specific targets, but my mindset was similar to Sir_Wulf's: if this place was easy to burn down then it would have done so long ago. I decided that the goblins would be woken up in the dorm by the commotion, so they were showing up and putting out the fire. They even sang a song about it. :)
In the meantime, some of the guards who weren't in danger started shooting back as best they could. After a few rounds I had Lyrie show up, and she was working on a way to use shatter on the airborn assailant. She ducked back inside the compound while considering her options. The player was pretty concerned by this (though of course she didn't know about the shatter--she just thought that this was worrisome). She wanted to swoop down and throw one of her few remaining sacks in at an angle. I told her that even a nineteen wouldn't be enough given the various modifiers in play. She attempted it anyway and rolled a natural twenty. I said that this would set off the alchemist's fire but not the oil. Since it was a threat though I told her to roll to confirm. There was some serious tension around the table at this point. She rolled another natural twenty.
So I don't know if Lyrie survived, but I certainly removed her from the encounter. There was a lot of cheering and the players felt really great about things. The flyer cut things short; she dropped her remaining sacks and let them land where they may, swigged a potion of invisibility, cut the ropes on the bridge, and dove into the sea to join her companions in their entrance into the helmet room.
I haven't decided yet what state I'm going to have the upper level be in if the PCs end up there. I'm sure there's chaos and certainly everyone's on the alert now, probably in the next level down as well. Big chunks of it will be charred. My PCs had been talking about taking over the place if they cleared out the Thistletop goblins, so they'll actually be pretty disappointed if I burn the compound to the ground.
The party is just about to walk in on Nualia. I think I'll have Ripnugget run down to talk to her several rounds after they get there, since he'd want to warn her that something's going on.
IMO, there is a very easy solution to this: have 90% of the goblins/NPCs alive at the time the fire was started retreat and barricade themselves in dungeon level 1 and 2. We already know that they're used to going down to those levels for Lamashtu worship sessions, and the lower levels have openings to the outside, so clean air isn't a problem. Further, the lingering preservative enchantments in/on/to the "head" of Thistletop should be enough to prevent large scale fire damage.
so, to sum up: Give the PCs a minor award for destroying the wooden palisade on top of Thistletop, repopulate the rooms below with 80-90% of the goblins/npcs found in the wooden palisade. problem solved.
When you're the DM, you have be able to tell the players that their plan has no chance of succeeding. When they whine about die rolls, you just have to stand firm and tell them no.
The PCs should NEVER be able to defeat multiple encounters with one d20 check followed by a few "rolls" from the DM to see if the PCs get obscenely lucky. As others have pointed out, it makes no sense in this context because of the conditions around the fort.
Not so - this smacks of railroading. I.E, I wrote it, and by gawd, they are going to go through it. If player's come up with something that you didn't foresee, and bypass a big chunk of your adventure, then go with it. Its not you against the pc's, its you and the pc's together. Figure out a way for the adventure to continue in a fun fashion.
Now that is just a bit hasty as a reply.
If they come up with something FEASIBLE, then perhaps one might consider letting them have a partial success, rework the relevant adventure parts and continue. .... and have the effect backfire at them some time later.
of course, there is such a thing as rolling over and having one's belly scratched by the players, because it is more important to the GM to be liked and adored, than to provide a fun and challenging story - if that is what you are aiming for, Good Luck, and ignore this advice
plus for the roll of a natural "20"... yeah, so they hit what they aimed for perfectly.... but does that make a fire burn more efficiently, more brightly or what ? If I hit a damp log or a stone with a roll of "20", that doesn't make it flammable, right ? Especially not from a flask ( of perhaps a half-pint of rural-quality) lamp oil....
I would be inclined to say the flames and the smoke attracted the attention of the Sandpoint Devil! Let them earn their xp that way hahahahaa!
plus for the roll of a natural "20"... yeah, so they hit what they aimed for perfectly.... but does that make a fire burn more efficiently, more brightly or what ? If I hit a damp log or a stone with a roll of "20", that doesn't make it flammable, right ? Especially not from a flask ( of perhaps a half-pint of rural-quality) lamp oil....
If you're referring to my game, the PC was trying to hit Lyrie with the flask but it was a tough shot.
I think that the plan was sufficient to cause a distraction and raise the alarm, but not enough to do any significant damage to the structure.
of course, there is such a thing as rolling over and having one's belly scratched by the players, because it is more important to the GM to be liked and adored, than to provide a fun and challenging story
Exactly.
It's not railroading to prevent the PCs from getting a "cheap win" that makes no sense in the context of the adventure write-up. There are ways to avoid the Goblins on level 1, if you use the various alternate entrances. But it's silly to think an occupied sea-side building with multiple basements is going to be easily burned to the ground with no survivors.
We've been harshing on the OP a bit, mainly because the fire seemed a bit too easy and unrealistic. Maybe a bit of a "belly scratch" moment, but whatever. If you're the DM and you like the idea of the Goblin Fort burning to the ground, so be it.
In the OPs defense, he never stated that he was going to allow all of the Goblins to die in the fire. If he heeded the advice of the majority of the posters here, they will be waiting for the PCs on the lower levels.
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Just to make more work for the DM.
You have the stats for the bulding, hardness, and hitpoints...
You can make chacks each round to see what burns, in 5' sections.
This will take a long, long time. The players *will* get board, they *will* learn their lesson, especially as the fire *will* wake the goblins (make listen checks, it should only be DC10 or something to hear, and get easier as the fire burns longer, gets bigger.
This is a big structure, as others have mentioned, if it burns at all, it will burn slowly, you have the rules there. Use them.
This is a big structure, as others have mentioned, if it burns at all, it will burn slowly, you have the rules there. Use them.
Yeah, join the choir. Very few people have liked the idea of letting the fort burn down. Doesn't really help the OP, as the fort has been a pile of ash in his campaign since last October.
Funny thing is, the OP hasn't been back since October. Wonder what happened to him and his campaign?
You can make chacks each round to see what burns, in 5' sections.
This will take a long, long time. The players *will* get board, they *will* learn their lesson, especially as the fire *will* wake the goblins (make listen checks, it should only be DC10 or something to hear, and get easier as the fire burns longer, gets bigger.
I don't think I've ever seen a situation where making the game miserable for everyone is a good strategy. You end up with grumpy players and a grumpy GM--what good does that do? Maybe the players won't do the same thing again, but you've still started out on the wrong foot. If you really need them not to burn things down, I'd try saying "Please don't burn things down, it throws me off."
Myself, I'd just let the fort burn, without bogging-down mechanics, but slowly enough that plenty of goblins escape. If the PCs get a bit of an advantage, so what? It's not as though they are going to be able to solve all of their problems with fire--most of the subsequent locales are stone.
It's easy to get locked into "I have all these encounters statted up, I have to run them all as written." But things will generally flow better if you abandon this idea. My PCs skipped a major encounter in #4--they opened a trap door, saw it, said "Egads, this place is cursed!" and closed the door again. Never came back. If the GM can become comfortable with occasional events like this, the whole game will be more relaxed, and I think more fun.
Mary
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In general, if the PC's come up with a good idea, they should see some sort of result from it, but I would not let it ruin the feel of the adventure.
In this particular case, I would have a chunk of the fort burn down, a handful of goblins die, re-map the top with the results of the burning (maybe half of it destroyed), and keep going. The lower levels should still be in good shape, the element of surprise is lost, and there are a bunch of pissed off goblins.
When you told the PC's that it has burned to the ground, what does that really mean? Most structures that burn, still have something left standing. To me, it is more of a stretch to say that there is nothing remaining except bare rock. There would be ruins that could hide sneaky goblins (read sneak attacks). Since you stopped at that point, it seems to me that you could still say some of the structure survived, and still keep the interest of the players.
How ironic, that one of my PC's decided that burning it to the ground would be a good idea as well.
I said, sure its made of wood, keep in mind that it is wet wood, but get a big enough fire going and it would probably burn, also remember it is misty every morning and it is late autumn when the adventure starts, so it has been raining on and off for a few weeks. He even suggested getting some flasks of oil to help start the blaze.
Throwing oil at the building from a distance and lighting it is not going to work, at the most it would damage and area of the building before the goblins crazily beat the flames out.
Starting a controlled fire is a different matter, But that is more difficult to do that in a stand up, drag out fight with the goblins.
When it was mentioned, I decided I would also have a nearby tribe of goblins turn up to see what was going on, the smoke should be visible for miles. This would ensure that the players fight the correct number of goblins. The important goblins, mainly the throne room, would relocate to the dungeon level first room. I would also have the horse break free, and pelt blindly off the cliff face to its death in the surf below them to remind them that arson has its penalties.
Any idea what sin arson would come under?
Any idea what sin arson would come under?
It depends on why they're starting the fire, I think. It might sloth or wrath, but probably the latter. Lust, greed, envy, pride, and gluttony seem less likely to me.
When my PCs saw Thistletop and the wooden building on it, they took the flasks of oil one of my players had, and burnt the whole thing to the ground. Luckily, the play session ended directly after that. What do I do, and how much XP should I give them?
Just to quickly pipe in on this.
Setting fire to wood isn't all that easy really. If you have a unsplintered log of wood that still has the bark on and everything that sucker aint burning anytime soon, not to mention if it's wet!The way oil works in starting a fire is that it gives the fire some fuel for it to burn hotter and potentially hot enough to set the wood on fire.
Generally what will happen if I'd pour some oil over a piece of wood, then set it on fire is that there'll be some fire until the oil is completely consumed then it'll die out. All I'm really left with is some scorched wood smelling like oil =D
Now for your proper way to light a piece of wood on fire, is for it to be dry and for you to hack some furrows into it. This way the fire can start in the small splinters of the wood and hopefully work its way into the main log. A great DM'ing tool and resource is to go camping! First hand knowledge of some of the basics of camping will add some great flavor to your games.
The Thistletop problem has been tackled nicely in the thread, but I just wanted to point out the tenacity of wood ^^
Just to quickly pipe in on this.
Setting fire to wood isn't all that easy really. If you have a unsplintered log of wood that still has the bark on and everything that sucker aint burning anytime soon, not to mention if it's wet!
This is a good point. Forest fires, historically anyway, rarely burn down many trees, it mostly just clears out the underbrush.
Part of the reason we get the raging inferno's we've been dealing with in more recent times is that, since the '50s, we have been far to good at putting out fires so the underbrush does not get to burn. We've essentially created forests full of kindling three feet deep that goes for miles.