18%
While I don't think 4e is going to blow chunks like some believe. I also see no need of switching editions in the near future. I just started with a new group in a new campaign (3 sessions thus far). We had a brief discussion at our last session, everyone is excited about where the campaign is going and their characters. We see no reason to scrap the current campaign to start playing a new edition. If everyone is stoked about the campaign now just after 3 sessions, I can only imagine how involved we'll be after 7 months or so (when 4e comes out). So, to answer the question, our group will be playing 3.5 at the end of 2008 and beyond. I'll probably pick up the 4e PHB out of curiousity, but can't imagine switching systems for a while (maybe when they come out with 4.5, maybe not). I've really enjoyed the first 3 PF's and will most likely continue with my subscription no matter what edition is used.
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I'm not exactly what you would consider a fan of 3.5e. It's just never been much of a draw for me. So initially, 4e was a great announcement for me. Not because I thought the system was going to be great, I liked it because it made the 3e crowd squirm, which in turn made me chuckle.
Initially, I wasn't a huge fan of Paizo either, they were just another d20 company to me. Big deal. I didn't pay Paizo any mind until the cancellation of the magazines and the announcement of Pathfinder. Pathfinder seemed like an interesting venture so I signed up to check it out. Now, 3 issues of Pathfinder later plus a Game Mastery subscription to boot, I have have to say that Paizo has won me over. Without being a bootlicker, I have to admit that this is some of the most innovative RPG material I have ever seen, regardless of system.
In fact, the Pathfinder and Game Mastery stuff has me doing something I haven't done in a few years now. I've pulled my 3.5e core three books off the shelf and dusted them off. The Paizo produced stuff has me impressed enough that I actually want to give it a whirl in the system that it was designed for and not convert it to another system. That is a pretty big accomplishment.
So, that changes me to the "I go where Paizo goes" column. I care more about content than the actual rules. If I didn't I wouldn't have been a Shadowrun fan all these years ;P. So 3.5e or 4e, wherever you guys decide to go, I'll be there. Rules quirks and all.
I will probably make the change to 4th Edition. By all accounts, I'm really liking where things are going. I dont entirely agree with everything written, but then, the game isnt out yet so I'm not sure if those nitpicks are actual issues...yet.
I am hoping that if I do like 4th Edition, and Paizo is still working on 3rd Edition products, that it will be easy to convert their material. Otherwise, I may be forced to run both 3rd and 4th Edition games, or, as some have said, a kind of hybrid 3.75th Edition game to cater to it better.
Anyway, if 4th Edition DOES suck, I hope that coincidentally Paizo isnt going that route.
Basically, I'm hoping that Paizo just happens to stick with what I'm playing. :-P
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I voted "need more info", but really it's probably going to be more like "Both 3.x & 4e". I know some people who still prefer 3.0 and some who are eagerly awaiting 4. Of course, that assumes I'll be playing any. (Our main group fell apart early THIS year, and I don't know if we're ever getting back together...)
Cold very undead hands lol. Actually more like well the manicured Vampire Lord hands (that old 3.0 template in the Monster Mayhem by Robert Wiese). The villainous plan is to drain 4e of all it's tasty internal fluids to empower my 3.5 game. There is some stuff about the new edition I like, leveling race options and reworking classes, but aside from that I can't say I'm overly happy with the new reincarnation.
I didn't really like the use of version numbers in regard to printed books. 3.5 is 3rd Edition D&D 1st Revision. What I plan on rewriting for my group is a 3rd Edition 2nd House Revision, the 3.75 that should have been released in 2008.
I have been defending 3.5 in other threads and logically I will keep playing 3.5 in the next 24 months and beyond. The problem for me is not sticking to 3.5 because I believe is the best made and it can't be improved, I don't think like that, the problem for me is that 4.0 will start from zero and asks you to forget and probably eliminated all what has been previously made. 3.5 gave you the option to convert most of the material from 2nd edition and other people took classic modules from 1st edition and converted so nothing was lost. But now WOTC says that I must ignore the great work made by great publishers (including themselves)because they can't be converted, that will be a terrible waste. If only d20 material could be converted to 4.0 I would not have any problem to take a chance on the system.
I went with an older edition. I came of age when 2nd Ed. hit, and loved it...then watched it turn into something I wasn't fond of. Skills and Powers sort of ruined it for me. Thus I was a huge fan of 3e when it launched...and the same thing happened. I remember convincing my players to go with 3rd because all the rules we needed would be in one place, easy to access, and most of all, CHEAP! Now I have more hardcovers on my shelf than I ever had for 2nd. I just know this will happen with 4th as well, not to mention I have been following the Design and Development articles at WotC.com, and I can honestly say I'm apprehensive about the direction in which they are taking the game. It feels too much like "Final Fantasy" to me...I like video games, but I want my pencil & paper RPG to be a different thing from my video RPG. Thus I have returned to AD&D 1e/OD&D, at least for now. The PDFs are a huge bargain, at any rate. ;)
I found this information a bit interesting. It is an FAQ about the OGL/SRD/d20 on the wizards site.
A: The company believes that one of the major factors which caused the collapse of the commercial tabletop RPG market from 1993 to 1996 was the proliferation of different, incompatible, core game systems.
The company believes that when many different game systems proliferate in the market, they cause significant problems with the shared rules knowledge and preferences between communities of players necessary to sustain a long-term, commercial market for RPG products.
The company has decided it is possible that consumers can be educated to understand the problems of system over-proliferation, and for those consumers to apply pressure to publishers to use standardized systems.
To jump-start that effort, Wizards of the Coast has created the System Reference Document, and the Open Gaming License (OGL) to allow royalty free, nonexclusive use of the game system at the heart of Dungeons & Dragons by anyone who wishes to do so, for both commercial and noncommercial works.
Wizards of the Coast believes that by doing so, and by educating consumers about the benefits of Open Games, the fundamental economics of the tabletop RPG category will be improved. One (obvious) consequence of this strategy is that if it works, Wizards will see significant, long-term financial benefits. Thus, the company sees this as a win-win situation, where it can benefit along with, rather than at the expense of, other publishers.
A: Sure, they'll probably try.
However, using the OGL, anyone who wants to can "fix" that content and publish the fixes, returning the variation to the core d20 system known by hundreds of thousands of gamers. And if those "fixes" are more popular than the variations, pretty soon, the "fix" will become the standard, and the variation will become a curiosity known only to a few people.
Over time, if the effort to vary the basic d20 System rules keeps failing, the number of people who attempt it will decline. At some point far in the future, commercial publishers may stop bothering to try at all.
The interesting thing about "open" projects (software, tabletop RPGs, etc.) is that they tend to suppress, rather than encourage "forks". Since everyone has the right to take an "open" project and make whatever changes are necessary to conform to the public standard, those who try to deviate from that standard are often perceived as wasting everyone's time, and being disruptive to the value of the shared community experience. Innovation happens at the edges of the envelope, rather than at the core. Changes to the core require a general consensus from large numbers of people to be successful, otherwise they'll just be ignored or "fixed" to maximize compatibility.
In fact, one of the biggest groups affected by this force will be the Wizards of the Coast tabletop RPG Research & Development team. When the time comes to make a new edition of Dungeons & Dragons, they'll have to make a very persuasive case to the market to adopt any changes to the core rules they want to make! The R&D team has already made some variations close to the core. The Star Wars rules include a different system for tracking character health, the Vitality Point/Wound Point system. Only time will tell if two variations that close to the core will both be supported by the market.
So has WotC forgotten what they once believed?
I'll be playing 3.0/3.5 until my Players are sick of D&D...so, at least a few more years. I have a mountain of 3.0/3.5 stuff that cost an arm and a leg and a long time to aquire, so I'll 'go with what I know'. I see no reason to ditch what it took me so long to collect just because some marketing geniuses at WoTC decided it was time to. I mean, I literally have years of D&D books/adventures I could use for a near endless amount of campaigns, so what would be the point of starting over?
As far as following Paizo goes, I think they alone are what made D&D great through the entirety of the 3.0/3.5 editions, but if they ditch those to go with 4th, I'll play out all their back issues of Dungeon & the Adventure Paths, then quit D&D and just find another game.
Shoggothic
Now I have more hardcovers on my shelf than I ever had for 2nd. I just know this will happen with 4th as well
That is their business fellow to make you buy all what they publish.
There are three kind of customer: 1) those who buy the core books and print out or invent their adventures and settings (they can jplay with the core books for years) 2)those who buy the core books plus a setting (and no expansions)and some adventures intended for that setting and esporadic books they are interested in and 3)the completist ones that buy everything that goes out every month.So customers type 1 and 2 are not important to WotC and they must be converted to 3. An the only way they can do that is changing the system whenever they can.
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The group I run will be playing 3.5 for some time to come just because of the amount of money and time we have invested. Since I'm the primary GM for the crew they play whatever I run. And for the foreseeable future that will be the system we have now.
Once the Age of Worms is over however we may go to a different system (read non-DnD) Genre.
I was very excited when I first heard about 4e (and I am still optimistic); however, I recently got back with my gaming group for some sweet RotRL and we were going over are extensive 3.5 library. Bottom line I may purchase 4.0 stuff, but unless it absolutely blows me away, my choice will be Paizo-dependent.
I've got enough money invested in 3.5E to cover my gaming needs for the foreseeable future. Roughly 75% of the players locally are in the same boat, with the other 25% playing other systems. Those reasons alone will keep me from upgrading anytime soon.
I have a great deal of money in 3rd edition stuff also (including a lot of Paizo stuff) and I have had a great deal of fun with it all. That's exactly why 4th edition could be so great. 3rd edition reenergized me and roleplaying has become fun again. With that in mind I am excited for the new edition because it potentially can have the same effect on me all over again. That is very exciting.
To make a long story better then, while excited about the future, I will have to see after I have the core books in my anxious hands.
Goo
I will certainly try out 4e. As much as I hate to have to do it, and admit it, I will plunk down my cash, so I can read the new rules.
However, I am certain I will be playing a 3rd edition game for many years to come, and will always stay-on-game with Paizo.
I am worried playing multiple systems multiple systems will induce schizophrenia... racing thoughts, difficulty concentrating, delusions, empty-wallet syndrome, etc.
I wrote of 4th edition because I spent a considerable amount on 3.5 already and it only makes sense to make use of the material. In today's age it won't be aby trouble finding replacement books when I finally wear them out. Not that I wanted to see 3.5 come to an end, but in a way it is nice because I have a large collection and don't feel like there is more to come.
With all of the changes they have made to the fluff it solidified my decision as well. I don't need to see the finished copy of the game to make an informed decision. For me it isn't about whether the game is better or worse than 3.5, there's a lot of things about 3.5 I don't like. Regretfully, many of these things, such as feats (to many) prestige classes (don't even like the idea of them), and the rapid level increase (hate it) are all being carried over to 4th edition anyway.
I'm sure 4th edition will have it's moments where it is an improvement, but like any game, it will have just as many weaknesses. Nothing here justifies starting over after spending a lot on 3.5.
So I'll stick with 3.5 when I do play D&D. Chances are I'll be playing something else entirely. For me, D&D comes and goes.
I've talked it over with my group months ago, and all of us have agreed that we will be sticking with 3.5 for at least a few years. I don't see switching to 4E anytime soon. To much invested in 3.5, and no real need to upgrade. I don't hate 3.5 at all, simple as that.
In all honesty, I think I'll wait till 4.5 in the long term (and that is no joke).
I can wait it out. I have enough 3.5 material to last me about 20+ years (literally)!
Basically, I'll use whatever Pathfinder uses, but I know this for sure: Whatever games I'll be playing will not include Dragonborn as a major player race.
There won't be any critters called "eladrins" that are a player race, either. Now I might use those, but I won't call them eladrins only because Wizards wants to pull the wool over our eyes and call one of their elven subraces by a different name to make the most gullible of roleplayers believe that they really got rid of subraces.
I think the issue might be more fundamental then all of that. Paizo's current products are not meant to be stand-alones (I believe). They all depend on the play groups having DMGs, PHBs, and MMs. Now once WotC stops production of new 3(.X) books, that means there will be limited supply of them. If Paizo stays with 3(.X), that means they will be severly limited on their growth potential. They will be limited to people who were already invested in the game or new players who are able to purchase old copies of the core texts.
They will not be able to get the new group who just started playing and does not have any old core books to start buying their products. They will have to switch to 4th edition eventually if they want to be able to have the ability to grow, or even to stay constant (because you will always lose some customers and if you can't get new ones to replace them ...).
So I don't think it is a question of whether Paizo will start making 4th edition products, they will, the question is when will they begin and will they continue to make 3(.X) products as well. It doesn't have to be one or the other it could be both, and for the first year or two should probably be both.
Now if 4th edition is not OGL then it is possible that Paizo could make books with the core rules from the 3(.X) OGL, I think. Like how games like Conan and such have done. In that case if Paizo could control the creation of core books, they could then keep their ability to attract new customers with the older rules as viable.
Men this is one of the best opinions ever about the 3.5/4.0 debate, I have never thought it that way, but now if your premise is true. Paizo has next options:
1)Produce 4.0 and still produce 3.5
1)Produce 4.0 and convertions to 3.5
2)Make their own derivative system from the d20 using the OGL and offer their own core books.
Moreover if 3.5 lost followers the most probably think is they sell their books so other can pick tehm up.
The first session after hearing about the new edition my gaming group had a (very) brief discussion and decided that with the entire gross annual output of a small nation invested in D&D products since the early eighties between us, we had no need of yet another edition - the current one works for us, we have a thousand years worth of material still to run and we can pick up any missing 3.5 books dirt cheap in the sell offs that have already started.
4th ed could be a universal panacea, but we're just over the whole better, stronger, faster thing.
We're happy to hide in our little corner of the world and let everyone pass us by.
Reggie.
Agree with you.
Combining the stuff I have in all versions of the game (not accounting for other games: MERP, CoC etc...), I could have my group play for a century all day long. I invested the value of a nice car into that (almost) during 15 years.
I have no more room for it (at least this is my wife's position).
I will probably look at 4th edition, get an insterest in any Greyhawkish production (meaning probably almost zilch), but that's all for the years to come.
I do not play enough to spend much more money on a new version. If Paizo goes to 4th, I will probably not follow either, unfortunately, despite the quality of the output, unless they continue to provide 3.5 OGL conversion guidelines.
My experience as a DM converting from 2nd to 3rd and 3rd to 3.5 in the middle of campaigns taught me never to try that again. I expect Runelords will last my group until 2009.
No one in my group is likely to demand 4th edition. I'm neither for nor against 4th edition as a rules set, but I do think WoTC should have let 3.5 and the Internet mature another couple years.
Also I think WoTC has a tendency to use and then drive off talented developers, whereas Paizo has shown an ability to nurture talent, both of which should serve this company well in the transition.
I currently play D&D 3.5 +, with some house rules. I have no intention to buy any new 4th edition books. Wizards could put out 1 book with some rules revised, there is no reason for a new line. We currently play Eberron with some of the Pathfinder Campaign thrown in.
No!!! 4th edition, waste of money what about a revised book.
I play in two groups. One is switching, the other isn't. However I have decided to no longer purchase anything 3rd edition, including adventures, until after I have seen the 4th edition rules and make my mind up. the only adventures I will get are my pathfinder converted issues (if I could put this on hold after Pathfinder 1, and resume later I would be elated, but I suspect that isn't a possibility).
So I voted that the jury is still out.
I hope Paizo continues to support 3.x in 2008. By mid 2008, I hope Paizo will see a proven, ongoing 3.x market. Hopefully, Paizo will be able to feel confident about continuing to support 3.x and possibly, eventually, publish an OGL 3.x compatible Paizo core rulebook. I wouldn't rush the latter. Although it is tempting to hope for the perfect 3.x core rulebook, I suspect there will be plenty of 3.5 PHBs for the near future.
Well I am not who to break your hopes but listening WotC talking about their new system it is clear that they firmly believe 4.0 will fix "rifts" from the 3.5 edition, at least when I saw the presentation video on youtube I could see always the flavor of "now you don't have to do this, this way is easier" WotC believes 4.0 is a serious improvement for the D&D game, so I don't think they will sell that idea to the players saying "well 4.0 will fix what lacked to 3.5, buy it, but well 3.5 is good too so here you have some books for you too"
Since WotC clearly said: "there are not conversion notes you have to start from level one" that says to me that this is an all or nothing situation to WotC, success or die. I don't think they have the way to produce books to both systems.
Well I am not who to break your hopes
Talking about not breaking anyone's hopes: Right now, there's more crap coming from wizards as from a million elephants' behinds. They can talk all they want about their great big super system, if they turn it into WoW the board game, I'll gladly embrace 3e's rifts.
Talking about not breaking anyone's hopes: Right now, there's more crap coming from wizards as from a million elephants' behinds. They can talk all they want about their great big super system, if they turn it into WoW the board game, I'll gladly embrace 3e's rifts.
Well I am not who to break your hopes
Amen
Talking about not breaking anyone's hopes: Right now, there's more crap coming from wizards as from a million elephants' behinds. They can talk all they want about their great big super system, if they turn it into WoW the board game, I'll gladly embrace 3e's rifts.
Well I am not who to break your hopes
Amen
I'm getting ready to start running Rise of the Runelords in 3.5. I'm sure it will take us until way past 2008 just to get halfway through, because we only play once a month.
So unless Paizo re-releases PDF's of all the pathfinder books we haven't gone through yet with re-calculated stat blocks and let's me download them for free, I probably won't convert.
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In my Opinion, Wizards is going to kill DnD with 4E, and then, they will say that its the fault of the people who did not buy the books.
I have 1E, 2E, 3E, and 3.5E books, taking up most of my apartment. I, and the group that I play with are not going to switch from v3.5 anytime in the next, 3-5 years, when all of our, 3 globe-troting campaigns, come to an end. That is assuming, that someone does not start up another one, before those ones end.
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In my Opinion, Wizards is going to kill DnD with 4E, and then, they will say that its the fault of the people who did not buy the books.
I have 1E, 2E, 3E, and 3.5E books, taking up most of my apartment. I, and the group that I play with are not going to switch from v3.5 anytime in the next, 3-5 years, when all of our, 3 globe-troting campaigns, come to an end. That is assuming, that someone does not start up another one, before those ones end.
agreed, I have dozens of RPG boxes around my house, dating back to 1E. 3.5E works for me!
NONE OF THE ABOVE. From what I've seen, I expect to be playing an unnatural hybrid of 3e, 3.5e, and 4e. I like some of the 4e preview stuff I've seen, and intensely dislike some of the other elements. So I'll start with the more flexible base system (we'll see which one), prune off the stuff I dislike, and then graft on favored elements from the other one.
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After I took about 24 hours to think about it, I've switched from "need more info" to "3rd forever."
My reasoning: The latest info from ENWorld flat out states that 30th level is the end. No more after that. You've killed gods and are one now. There is nothing left for you to do except die when someone else reaches 30th level. Have a nice day... Why? Because it's "truer" to older editions? Since when did this edition care about a "sacred cow"?
My various groups found the idea of unlimited gameplay thrilling and exciting. The idea that no matter how powerful you got, there was always some new area to explore or some new enemy to fight, was an innovation fo us. For us, 3.x epic was a challenge and gave us a good opportunity to develop characters. I have a group that has reached 35th level after 5 years of gameplay and they want to continue. From what I've heard about level advancement, 4th edition can't even offer the same amount of gametime as 3.x did for 30 levels.
Thank you, but no.
I expect Paizo and other publishers will do what they feel they have to do. They have bills to pay, just like I do, and to pay bills you have to earn money, which in their case means selling products. I would be delighted if they stayed with 3.x, but would not begrudge anyone who switched to 4.0. Paizo has always treated me in a professional manner and I have really enjoyed buying from them. At this point, I feel I will be staying with 3.x for a long time.
Since were planning on playing the Savage Tide adventure path in a month or two and that it took us 2 years to finish the Age of Worms I'm not worried about 4e as of right now. In fact I view it as the Vista of RPG, I'll give them a year or two to work out the bugs!!!
This is my feeling also as we are playing Shackled City. I am excited for the possibilities of 4E, but to use your metaphor, I'm still using XP...and will continue to do so for the foreseeable future.
Darth Frodo3.5 for us!
Mutants and Masterminds Second Edition for now.
agreed, I have dozens of RPG boxes around my house, dating back to 1E. 3.5E works for me!In my Opinion, Wizards is going to kill DnD with 4E, and then, they will say that its the fault of the people who did not buy the books.
I have 1E, 2E, 3E, and 3.5E books, taking up most of my apartment. I, and the group that I play with are not going to switch from v3.5 anytime in the next, 3-5 years, when all of our, 3 globe-troting campaigns, come to an end. That is assuming, that someone does not start up another one, before those ones end.
The video teaser for 4th edition claims: "the game will remain the same" "the game will remain the same" yes the same: buy the three core rule books buy later the flood of books they will produce recycling the same concepts from previous editions and after 8 years "make the change" "this is the new D&D 5th edition. Yes "it will remain the same"
Given what I have read until now about 4th Edition, I think I will never switch to it. I just _hate_ the direction they have taken in their game design. It's not the game I have played and loved for more than 20 years.
I will wait to read the definitive rules, but with little hope.
So it will stick to a 3.5 game with some house rules, or rules borrowed from other books.
Also since their adventures are dungeon crawl only, they can keep them too.
Cyberpunk 2020.. 4th corpwar most definately NOT going the official way ;) (& 203X sucks balls)
Runequest ;) -the old one, thank you very much. Uleria & trickster gods ftw!!
And a little fav..
Cthulhu dark ages & Pendragon combined.