Yeah, Armour storm Soldiers and Prototype armour Mechanics can get the Proficiency without spending feats.
Armoury page 74 for improving Power armour
Armoury page 74 for improving Power armour
Thanks for pointing this out! The only character I've played so far who used power armor only got to 6th level (at the end of a 3-part AP), so those rules weren't really relevant for him, but they will be VERY useful when one of my new characters gets to that level in SFS. (Looks like I'll definitely want to invest in Engineering by then, too...)
the rules for upgrading power armor are out and out broken. They assume and cost as much as upgrading your armor every level. That takes more money than your character earns. (which is why you'll notice chracters buying armor a few levels ahead letting it lag and then getting new armor)
Doesn't work in SFS, but iirc, calculating out the final upgrade cost for armor costs about as much as a new suit of armor. (for example, upgrading from level 6 to 12, the cost for the upgrade from 11 to 12)
So, for house rules, that might work for your table, but doesn't in SFS.
Ah, right, I forgot to check Additional Resources before getting excited. And yeah, it's a lot simpler (if annoying) to just buy new armor every couple levels. I have to do that for every other PC anyway, and the Armory seems to fill the awkward level gaps in the CRB power armor table.
Be warned that other than the experimental armor prototype mechanic, power armor works best between 5th level (the earliest that proficiency can be gained) to about 13th level (when a PC can probably afford heavy armor, a forcepack, and standard speed suspension to end up with better EAC/KAC and movement options* than power armor for about the same amount of credits).
The Str from the powered armor is usually about the same or less than what a PC can have at the same level with advancements and personal upgrades. The only exceptions, IIRC, are the jarlslayer and some of the other 15th+ level powered armors; and even then, they are pretty much only +2 Str** over the highest possible PC Str for that level (starting with 18 Str at 1st level, advancements at 5th/10th/15th/20th, and highest personal upgrade in Str).
Power armor can be OK, but it's expensive and (especially the ones with usage of 1/minute) limited compared to other options in higher level play.
*- note that powered armor movement is separate from (and effectively replaces) normal PC movement, plus the jump jets, jetpacks, and forcepacks armor upgrades cannot be installed on power armor (listed as Light, Heavy on the upgrade table)
**- the warmaster's harness (19th level) has a 31 Str and a thrall hardshell (19th level) has a 30 Str one level before a PC can have 28 Str; reactor guard (17th level) also has 30 Str, but it's extremely slow (speed 25 ft)
Power armor jockey can make that strength problem more manageable at some levels.
Also, power armor tends to be most attractive to people without high strength to start with who shoot, but also want to be good in melee.
Pretty good for a Vanguard. They focus on Con, which adds to their damage. At later levels they also get to add Strength so the PA can help boost the secondary stat
While I certainly agree that the rules for upgrading power armor are rather pricey (I really think you should get SOME discount based on what you already have, you're hardly starting from scratch after all. My thoughts on homebrew for this are that upgrading a level costs 50% of the current cost, which gets added to the base price of the suit. This almost always results in a higher price than the next tier suit while not being ridiculous, and letting you keep the special features of the suit.), it allows you to retain the special features of the suit, some of which are quite nice, or even vital in some scenarios, while getting base stats appropriate to the tier.
You can technically buy them at the appropriate level (with the sale price of the previous armor it's even cheaper) so there isn't any real reason to have impossibly expensive upgrades.
You CAN'T just buy them at the desired level. They only can be bought at the listed level. That's the problem/point of this thread. The only reason to upgrade power armor is to hang onto the special features of the suit (like Celerity Armor's speed) while still having ACs that are appropriate to the party's tier.
This is what I was looking for. But as I understand it from this thread and rules as I have come to understand them, RAW does not really allow it in a practical or affordable manner. I would have to really look at the list to figure out the rough progression at each tier, but would there be any harm in allowing the EAC/KAC and str to increase at the same rate? But with maybe a only 50% cost, or is Starfinder designed around the 'disposable' armor from level to level as part of a money sink...? (we will be using a lot of written material from AP's to Starfinder Society modules...)
You CAN'T just buy them at the desired level. They only can be bought at the listed level. That's the problem/point of this thread. The only reason to upgrade power armor is to hang onto the special features of the suit (like Celerity Armor's speed) while still having ACs that are appropriate to the party's tier.
Starfinder tends to be written for the disposable armor paradigm.
Buying new armor every level (powered or normal armor) will bankrupt your character. Every 3-5 levels is more normal depending on how often your character gets shot at/stabbed at. The power armor upgrade rules don't account for this paradigm. It's far more expensive to level up your power armor three times than it is to buy new power armor three levels above your old suit.
The reason behind this, is that with the upgrade rules, each upgrade is equivalent to buying a brand new suit of power armor. See the problem where you go bankrupt if you buy new armor every level.
If you aren't playing SFS, then calculating out the final upgrade price plus the original suit price, will give you a price roughly equivalent to other suits of the same level. If you're GM is cool with that, it may be an option.
Why can't you? Is there some rule that says that you can only ever buy items at the listed price as the stock item? Is it impossible to buy a weapon made of special materials or with an installed fusion? Upgraded power armor is of the level it is upgraded to and even has a price to match.
Because there aren't stats for an i level 3 Estex 1.5 suit.
For upgraded armor, the problem is that the price gets absurdly high by the formulae given. It should have been figured out on a 1/4 level upgrades not a 1/1 level upgrade
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Why can't you? Is there some rule that says that you can only ever buy items at the listed price as the stock item?You can technically buy them at the appropriate level (with the sale price of the previous armor it's even cheaper) so there isn't any real reason to have impossibly expensive upgrades.You CAN'T just buy them at the desired level. They only can be bought at the listed level. That's the problem/point of this thread. The only reason to upgrade power armor is to hang onto the special features of the suit (like Celerity Armor's speed) while still having ACs that are appropriate to the party's tier.
All armor, equipment, and weapons are assigned an item level (CRB page 167). It sounds like you are trying to make an argument that the printed tables assigned one item level, but you can choose to assign a higher one if you feel like it.
Is it impossible to buy a weapon made of special materials or with an installed fusion?
You can buy a weapon made of special materials (CRB page 191). You could "buy" a weapon with an installed fusion because that would be identical in cost and function to buying a weapon then installing the fusion. It's a distinction without a difference.
Upgraded power armor is of the level it is upgraded to and even has a price to match.
Yes, you are correct. I think we're confused about what you are trying to say here. I'm going to fully quote your first post in the thread and maybe you can clear it up for us.
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The way I had originally read the rule was that it cost 150% of the current price and 24 hours for each level gained (150% x 150% x 150% x 150% for 4 levels or 506.25% of the current price and 96 hours).
That is entirely correct.
The wording is absolutely atrocious. Considering the sentence structure could be read like the above or that you pay the base price every level upgraded, not having an example where they increased multiple levels in one go is honestly confusing.
They do have an example. Ironclad bulwark is improved to 11th level for 28,875 credits and then to 12th for 43,312 more credits.
You can technically buy them at the appropriate level (with the sale price of the previous armor it's even cheaper) so there isn't any real reason to have impossibly expensive upgrades.
This is what we don't understand. What are you saying here? Are you suggesting that you can "skip item levels" when improving power armor to avoid paying for them?
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Yeah, no.
You buy a level 11 version of a level 5 power armor by the rules, it costs as much as the level 5 armor plus the upgrade to 6 plus the upgrade to 7 plus the upgrade to 8, etc... And is ridiculously overpriced.
Now... if that armor was prices as the level 5 price plus the final upgrade to 11 price it's reasonable, but that's not how the rules read.
I'm not suggesting that you "skip item levels" so much as pay for the level you upgrade to rather than the levels in between. The rules say that "it costs a number of credits equal to 150% of the armor's current price (...) for each level gained." It never says you pay the cost at every level. Let's use the provided example. In 2 upgrade events it would be 28,875 and 1 day + 43312 and 1 day. However, in just one event you would pay 43,312 and spend 2 days...
Fantastic. Good luck finding someone willing to sell you their power armor that they've so lavishly upgraded. Nor is anyone that looted such off of a corpse going to drop off such a rare prize at the store; they're either going to use it, or if they can't, sell it to a collector or on the AbadarCorp equivalent of eBay.
That's what the current price is though. Price means what it costs to buy. Current means now. 10% of the current price is what you get when you sell it.
How is that the current price? It's just a small fraction of the price the previous owner spent to acquire that item. They still spent all those other credits on the item.
I agree that it is the reasonable price and encourage GMs to use it or similar for upgraded suits, but it is not the price according to the rules.
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I'm not suggesting that you "skip item levels" so much as pay for the level you upgrade to rather than the levels in between. The rules say that "it costs a number of credits equal to 150% of the armor's current price (...) for each level gained." It never says you pay the cost at every level. Let's use the provided example. In 2 upgrade events it would be 28,875 and 1 day + 43312 and 1 day. However, in just one event you would pay 43,312 and spend 2 days working. The reason this works is because you don't pay every level. So the cost is the end result. 2 levels in a single upgrade would be 150% per level or 150% * 150% for 225% of the current price which would be that 43,312. If you were level 20 and wanted to upgrade it from level 10 to 20 it would cost 1,110,052 and 10 days of work.
You are suggesting you skip item levels. Calling it "pay for the level you upgrade to rather than the levels in between" is just a long-winded way to say the same thing.
You have placed your ellipses in an attempt to inject ambiguity where there is none.
It is possible (though expensive) to improve powered armor to make it a more effective, higher-level piece of equipment. It costs a number of credits equal to 150% of the armor’s current price to improve the armor’s item level by 1 and takes at least 24 hours for each level gained. Thus improving an ironclad bulwark to 11th level would cost 28,875 credits. The price paid to improve powered armor by 1 level becomes its new current price, so selling an ironclad bulwark improved to 11th level would bring in 2,887 credits, while improving it to 12th level would cost 43,312 credits.
The text and the example are clear. If you want a level 12 ironclad bulwark you have to improve it to level 11 first.
Many players - myself included - do not like the fact that there is no economically feasible way to improve your existing items, especially for power armor (which often has unique properties). But the Starfinder paradigm is "buy something new, don't upgrade." Trying to twist the language to shoehorn in a clearly incorrect reading isn't the way to deal with that.
If it's a home game and you are the GM, just say "I don't like the way this works, so we're doing it this other (lower-priced) way." Or discuss with the GM if you are a player. If you feel that the rule needs a rework at the design level, address a reasoned argument to the Design Team. "Spellcaster's Aegis is a great armor for an 8th level caster. But there's nothing remotely equivalent for a level 11+ caster. They can't afford to improve the Aegis very far. It doesn't make any sense that no one is making armor with those properties for higher-level casters. The market would definitely be there. If the improvement costs are going to stay the same, can we get rules for adding unique properties from one power armor to power armors of a higher level?"
Many players - myself included - do not like the fact that there is no economically feasible way to improve your existing items, especially for power armor (which often has unique properties). But the Starfinder...
This was the reasoning behind my proposed +50% house rule. Personal Submersible has a base cost of 7,200. Adding 50% (3,600) would move the base price to 10,800, which is more than the 10,250 for Spellcaster's Aegis, but not enough so to be crippling. Personal Submersible would seem to be an excellent candidate for such improvement as well, being one of the very few alternate environment access platforms.
In all cases, adding 50% gets you a base price that is close to that of the armor on the next tier, and is slightly more in the majority of cases.