I am about to start a RoTRLs game, so I am rereading the PG. ARe the dieties universal to everyone or are some races more inclined to worship certain dieties? If so, can I get a short list of which races specifically worship which diety? Or is that coming out in a book soon?
Contributor
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I am about to start a RoTRLs game, so I am rereading the PG. ARe the dieties universal to everyone or are some races more inclined to worship certain dieties? If so, can I get a short list of which races specifically worship which diety? Or is that coming out in a book soon?
They're universal. Some deities appeal more to certain races than others, of course. James can probably tell you better than can I, though, but it should be pretty obvious (elves like Desna, dwarves like Torag). The races might have a few minor deities of their own, but aside from an evil dwarven god of toil, we haven't needed to include one yet.
Creative Director
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Here's the way I see the "favored" deities of the core races working out.
ELVES
Desna, Calistria, Nethys
DWARVES
Torag, Abadar, Irori
GNOMES
Shelyn, Nethys, Gozreh
HALFLINGS
Desna, Erastil, Pharasma
HALF ELVES
Cayden Cailean, Calistria, Sarenrae
HALF ORCS
Gorum, Rovagug, Torag
TIEFLINGS
Calistria, Lamashtu, Asmodeus
AASIMAR
Iomedae, Sarenrae, Shelyn
GOBLINS
Lamashtu, that old stump that looks sort of like a monster face, their current chieftain
Of coruse, there are also certainly lots of minor gods (some of whom, like Minderhal and Droskar, we've mentioned—some of whom, like Cyth-V'sug and Zyphus we have not) who are far more specialized and worshiped only by certain types of people. We'll get to those when we get to them, though.
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I can't tell you how much I appreciate the fact that you haven't gone the "racial deities" route. I've always found it to be truly annoying in a depersonalizing kind of way - people should worship gods that mean something to them spiritually, not merely who their race "tells" them to.
That was our thinking. We're glad you approve. ^_^
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I can't tell you how much I appreciate the fact that you haven't gone the "racial deities" route. I've always found it to be truly annoying in a depersonalizing kind of way - people should worship gods that mean something to them spiritually, not merely who their race "tells" them to.
That was one of the selling points for Kingdoms of Kalamar for me, my campaign world of choice for the last six years or so.
Kudos to Paizo for making a product good enough to make me switch worlds for a while.
I can't tell you how much I appreciate the fact that you haven't gone the "racial deities" route. I've always found it to be truly annoying in a depersonalizing kind of way - people should worship gods that mean something to them spiritually, not merely who their race "tells" them to.
Kudos to Paizo for making a product good enough to make me switch worlds for a while.
I am of the exact same mind as these gentlemen. This was a very wise decision, indeed. Kudos Paizo.
Thank you for the list and thank you for making them universal. I like that also. I like the fact that "favor" doesn't equate to "have to because of race."
I too like the idea of one pantheon rather than individual racial ones. I also think it would be cool if there where slight differences between how different races and cultures perceived their deities. Kind of equivalent to the multiple branches of a single faith like christianity or islam. I think it could add a bit of realism and could make for some interesting plot hooks.
I too like the idea of one pantheon rather than individual racial ones. I also think it would be cool if there where slight differences between how different races and cultures perceived their deities. Kind of equivalent to the multiple branches of a single faith like christianity or islam. I think it could add a bit of realism and could make for some interesting plot hooks.
I relish this idea as well. I liked that in the cd-ROM game, Heart of Winter, there's a cutscene when you go to parlay with the *Barbarians* that their chief spits out something to the effect of *You who call us Barbarians, but you are the ones butchering our people and taking our lands. You even take our gods away from us.* He refers to how they felt their god originated with their people and was later adopted by the Ten Towns folk who also began pronouncing the god's name differently.
This is what I imagine might be going down in the lands near Korvosa as the Hell Knights try to subjugate nearby territories.
I can't tell you how much I appreciate the fact that you haven't gone the "racial deities" route. I've always found it to be truly annoying in a depersonalizing kind of way - people should worship gods that mean something to them spiritually, not merely who their race "tells" them to.That was our thinking. We're glad you approve. ^_^
And I think that's fine too. But I've always had a problem with, for example, dwarves worshiping a human-appearing god. I think every race should imagine a god in their own image like in Eberrron, or at least as "multiracial", such as Ulaa in Greyhawk (bit dwarvish, bit gnomish) or Ehlonna (alternates human/elven).
And I think that's fine too. But I've always had a problem with, for example, dwarves worshiping a human-appearing god. I think every race should imagine a god in their own image like in Eberrron, or at least as "multiracial", such as Ulaa in Greyhawk (bit dwarvish, bit gnomish) or Ehlonna (alternates human/elven).I can't tell you how much I appreciate the fact that you haven't gone the "racial deities" route. I've always found it to be truly annoying in a depersonalizing kind of way - people should worship gods that mean something to them spiritually, not merely who their race "tells" them to.That was our thinking. We're glad you approve. ^_^
I can see the perspective. I think for me, I've felt this depended on the cosmology to figure out: 1) who created the race in question; 2) what does the god look like. An old Greek line of philosophy concluded that people make gods in their own image, and that if horses had gods, they'd appear horse-like in form. Although this explains some pantheons, you've had other pantheons even in the real world where the image of gods didn't mirror the humans worshipping them. In Egypt, you have gods like Anubis. In Mesopotamia, you have gods like Pazuzu. In Hinduism, you have gods like Ganesha. Perhaps bipedal, or otherwise having humanoid elements, they also contain aspects of the non-human. So we know a little of what some of the Golarian gods look like, and we definately now know what Desna looks like, but what about the others? The gods represent certain values, and it feels like these values in Golarian consume more priority than their specific appearance.
I can see the perspective. I think for me, I've felt this depended on the cosmology to figure out: 1) who created the race in question...
The cosmology... it's important.
I can see the perspective. I think for me, I've felt this depended on the cosmology to figure out: 1) who created the race in question; 2) what does the god look like. An old Greek line of philosophy concluded that people make gods in their own image, and that if horses had gods, they'd appear horse-like in form. Although this explains some pantheons, you've had other pantheons even in the real world where the image of gods didn't mirror the humans worshipping them. In Egypt, you have gods like Anubis. In Mesopotamia, you have gods like Pazuzu. In Hinduism, you have gods like Ganesha. Perhaps bipedal, or otherwise having humanoid elements, they also contain aspects of the non-human. So we know a little of what some of the Golarian gods look like, and we definately now know what Desna looks like, but what about the others? The gods represent certain values, and it feels like these values in Golarian consume more priority than their specific appearance.
Very true. I don't have a good grasp on the cosmology of Golarion yet. We know that at least one god ascended from a mortal human (and later died), but did other gods ascend from other races, did they arise de novo, what are the various races' creation myths? I look forward to learning more!
And I think that's fine too. But I've always had a problem with, for example, dwarves worshiping a human-appearing god. I think every race should imagine a god in their own image like in Eberrron, or at least as "multiracial", such as Ulaa in Greyhawk (bit dwarvish, bit gnomish) or Ehlonna (alternates human/elven).
I like to imagine each race interacting with the gods in the same way that Dream appeared to different cultures in Neil Gaiman's "Sandman" series. His appearance, including facial features, hair style, and clothing, was very different when he manifested to a 1920's citizen of San Francisco than it was when he appeared before the Caliph of Baghdad in the 10th Century. Each observer saw Dream as he or she expected to see him, and his "true appearance" was never really established, because it really doesn't matter to him. He is beyond identifying himself as belonging to a particular time-period, race, or culture. This is how a universal pantheon of gods should react, as well.
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And I think that's fine too. But I've always had a problem with, for example, dwarves worshiping a human-appearing god. I think every race should imagine a god in their own image like in Eberrron, or at least as "multiracial", such as Ulaa in Greyhawk (bit dwarvish, bit gnomish) or Ehlonna (alternates human/elven).
Yes, I think it's safe to say that dwarven worshipers of Irori make him look like a dwarf. We'll probably present most of our deities to look like humans, since Golarion is such a humanocentric world. :)
Yes, I think it's safe to say that dwarven worshipers of Irori make him look like a dwarf. We'll probably present most of our deities to look like humans, since Golarion is such a humanocentric world. :)
Oh oh! I sense the seeds of religious war being sown between gnomish and human worshippers of Shelyn over the appropriate size of nose. :)
GOBLINS
Lamashtu, that old stump that looks sort of like a monster face, their current chieftain
THAT'S SORT OF LIKE A DEMON FACE, BLASPHEMING HERETIC! PREPARE YOURSELF AND YOUR FAMILY TO DIE HORRIBLY!
What?
One vibe that I've gotten from my limited steps into Golarion is that *anything* can be a god. I haven't seen RotRL #2 yet, and its write-up of Desna, but earlier comments about devas and devils being able to grant divine spells leads me to that assumption.
I like the idea of there being whole bunches of potential gods floating around the outer planes and allowing each culture and community to pick the one (or ones) they want. It just feels right in my head that Golarion gods aren't all-powerful beings, just more-powerful-than-you beings.
It even suggests a way to differentiate between clerical and druidic magic. I can see druids eschewing the worship of a small batch of gods and instead worshipping whole slews of minor nature spirits. Although a nature spirit like a lake spirit may have less power than the sun god, druids make up for it by worshipping hundreds of the little buggers. The end result is the same, but it certainly allows druids their own vibe rather than just being a cleric of a nature god.
Is there anything in the planned cosmology (or even the printed cosmology in all those books I don't have) that would counter this idea?
Silly gnome, Shelyn doesn't have pigtails.Oh oh! I sense the seeds of religious war being sown between gnomish and human worshippers of Shelyn over the appropriate size of nose. :)Totally. Plus hair color and... very importantly... pigtail length. :D
Yes she does, and clearly Ameiko is her avatar...
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So we know a little of what some of the Golarian gods look like ...
Actually, we know what folks THINK some of the Golarion gods look like. I have to lean in same direction as Arcesilaus. First of all, people imagine the gods to look a lot like themselves, and even if a god manifests him/herself on Golarion, who says he/she takes a consistent form? Tying a very, VERY old and very, VERY powerful being to the physical form of one of the (relatively) newer creatures on continent of one planet in the multiverse. Desna may appear as a mixture of human and elven, but she ain't, she's a god. This form may please her and it may strengthen the bond between her and two groups of her worshipers, but I doubt it is her TRUE form (if a god even has such a thing).
So we know a little of what some of the Golarian gods look like ...Actually, we know what folks THINK some of the Golarion gods look like. I have to lean in same direction as Arcesilaus. First of all, people imagine the gods to look a lot like themselves, and even if a god manifests him/herself on Golarion, who says he/she takes a consistent form? Tying a very, VERY old and very, VERY powerful being to the physical form of one of the (relatively) newer creatures on continent of one planet in the multiverse.
Or they go Volon on everyone and condition the races, over centuries, to see them each in an unique way. That means if Gorum manifests to a mixed group of humanoids, the dwarf will actually see a stocky, bearded fellow with heavy armour and a heavy, rune-adorned flamberge, but the elf will see a tall, slender elf with warpaint, light armour, a bow on his back, and a long, slender courtblade.
Or they go Volon on everyone and condition the races, over centuries, to see them each in an unique way. That means if Gorum manifests to a mixed group of humanoids, the dwarf will actually see a stocky, bearded fellow with heavy armour and a heavy, rune-adorned flamberge, but the elf will see a tall, slender elf with warpaint, light armour, a bow on his back, and a long, slender courtblade.So we know a little of what some of the Golarian gods look like ...Actually, we know what folks THINK some of the Golarion gods look like. I have to lean in same direction as Arcesilaus. First of all, people imagine the gods to look a lot like themselves, and even if a god manifests him/herself on Golarion, who says he/she takes a consistent form? Tying a very, VERY old and very, VERY powerful being to the physical form of one of the (relatively) newer creatures on continent of one planet in the multiverse.
I like this idea best. See what the dieties want you to see. That will be how I approach the dieties.
...for once, the inclusion of pigtails into D&D wasn't my doing.
Add some freckles and you've got the perfect woman. Pigtails and freckles... ah...
That means if Gorum manifests to a mixed group of humanoids, the dwarf will actually see a stocky, bearded fellow with heavy armour and a heavy, rune-adorned flamberge, but the elf will see a tall, slender elf with warpaint, light armour, a bow on his back, and a long, slender courtblade.
While interesting, it doesn't really address the idea of cultural identity in the different races. Even if they see the gods differently, they all appear to be worshipping the same beings in the same way.
So far, there's been precious little said or done in Golarion to give the demi-humans any strong cultural identity. I'm down with the idea that they all worship the same gods, but I'd really like to see them do it in different ways.
I was a little let down by the dwarven monastery in 'Hollow's Last Hope', fer instance, because it didn't look like a dwarven building. Aside from the anvil in the shrine, it was as common as any human building.
I really like Drakthar, the dwarven god of toil. The backstory in 'Crown of the Kobold King' gives the Golarion dwarves so much character that I'm looking to expand that and make it the default faith for my Golarion dwarves. I like the idea of putting a darker twist to the dwarves industriousness and it's a very cool element that a collapsing empire could be saved by this otherwise wicked religion.
More flavor like that goes a long way to giving the other races their own identities.
{While interesting, it doesn't really address the idea of cultural identity in the different races. Even if they see the gods differently, they all appear to be worshipping the same beings in the same way.}
I don't think that's necessarily true. Some cultures are going to elevate certain principles and downgrade others. A god of agriculture might appear to a dwarf as a mushroom-farmer, an elf as an orchard-worker, and a goblin as a scrawny weak goblin unfit for the "manly" arts of hunting and war. Argiculture is somewhat important for dwarves but requires active work n an environment where normal plants won't grow, for elves it's just a matter of selecting from the bounty that nature provides, and to the goblin it's completely ignored, just taken as spoils of war or as "women's work."
The dwarves worship him as a provider deity, perhaps strongly associated with the home and defense of the clan (as you need food for those long sieges, and you can grow mushrooms anywhere without needing a lot of flat land).
The elves worship her as a companion, servant, or child of the primary nature deity, a useful being but not of primary importance over nature itself.
The goblins don't worship him at all. He's not worth it.
And to throw another race in the mix, the non-nomadic humans probably consider a harvest deity one of the eldest and principle founders of civilized life, with ties to cooperation, cycles of time, and perhaps even law itself.
Despite these different appearances and valuations, these four races can all be worshipping the same deity. Electricity means one thing to an Amish person, another to a guy running a farm in Kansas, and yet another thing to a computer nerd like myself in California ... but it's still electricity, and even though we have different perceptions of and uses for it doesn't change its fundamental nature. How we view electricity says a lot about us; we project ourselves onto the tools we use, and in this context a deity is just an incredibly powerful tool that we can "wield" in certain ways according to certain rules.
So I think the shared-deity-but-different-perceptions model works pretty well. I wish we had taken that step with FR for D&D 3.0, but people probably would have freaked.
Hi @all!
New here to the boards (although i read them regularly)...
I don't need thousands of deities (FR anyone?) with 75% (or so) of them being irrelevent (at least in my games). It is not only that i have a bad memory (paerhaps its my age *cough*) but also my players have no interesst inso many religions and can barely remember the names and "codes of conducts" of clerics/devout.
So, I like the the unified pantheon approach and hope that Golarian will not be flooded with greater deities, medium deities, lesser deities, demigods, greater spirits or whatsoever...
Cheers
If the gods did have a Vrolon quality to them, I think that would be cool. I also enjoy the electricity analogy which references that, and how certain aspects to the gods will be interpreted differently: elevated by some and downgraded by others. I can also see how this could lead to religious wars, two sides splitting hairs over the same god.
Pipi Longstocking is exactly how I saw Desna. . . very dangerous but very useful for a DM to toy with annoying players. Revenge is a dish best served cold and with pig-tailed, freckled little girls, hee hee.
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New here to the boards (although i read them regularly)...
Hello! :D
So, I like the the unified pantheon approach and hope that Golarian will not be flooded with greater deities, medium deities, lesser deities, demigods, greater spirits or whatsoever...
No, we won't flood Golarion with needless deification. We'll probably tuck in references to other deities now and then, but we won't have a cast of thousands. :)
If the gods did have a Vrolon quality to them
I totally read that as Voltron quality...
But which six would combine to form the uber-god?
I think he means Vorlon, Mighty Mike. As in Babylon 5.
Every race had archtypal mythic figures of shining being with wings (angels). That was due to the fact that the Vorlons had paid 'visits' to study every race, and it got lodged in cultural and racial memories.
Later, when those races became an interstellar society, they concealed their forums to hide this fact till they wanted to capitialize upon it. Timing is everything you know.
"And I'll form...the head!"
But to answer Sean K., I think I wasn't clear enough on the cultural variation I was looking for. Sure they can worship the same gods for different things, but they still all seem to be worshipping it the same way.
As it stands now, I see nothing that would indicate that an elf could not seamlessly walk into a human temple and pray to his god just as the locals do. That's like saying "I have no cathedral handy, but this local mosque will do."
Like I said, I'm totally down with the different races sharing the same gods, and you've some great ideas for how they might see them differently, but I'd like to see how they worship them differently.
If humans pray to the agriculture god with a feast of thanks and great celebration, perhaps the neighboring elves prey to him via solemn blood sacrifice to return life to the land. Imagine how offended each group would be if it witnessed the other group's ritual?
If by "visit to study" you mean "merrily messed with their heads so they'd recognise them as exalted beings, and also create telepaths", then your summary is correct. ;P
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I think he means Vorlon, Mighty Mike. As in Babylon 5.
Every race had archtypal mythic figures of shining being with wings (angels). That was due to the fact that the Vorlons had paid 'visits' to study every race, and it got lodged in cultural and racial memories.
Later, when those races became an interstellar society, they concealed their forums to hide this fact till they wanted to capitialize upon it. Timing is everything you know.
Ah, I see. Thankee thankee. :)
My knowledge of B5 has now increased by 100% from reading your post. :)
Also... he he... Mighty Mike. ^_^
If by "visit to study" you mean "merrily messed with their heads so they'd recognise them as exalted beings, and also create telepaths", then your summary is correct. ;P
I did put the word visit in quotes. ;P
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As it stands now, I see nothing that would indicate that an elf could not seamlessly walk into a human temple and pray to his god just as the locals do. That's like saying "I have no cathedral handy, but this local mosque will do."
If humans pray to the agriculture god with a feast of thanks and great celebration, perhaps the neighboring elves prey to him via solemn blood sacrifice to return life to the land. Imagine how offended each group would be if it witnessed the other group's ritual?
I think you may be attributing more variation to racial worship than actually exists. Christianity and Islam, while having the same basis, are two completely different religions. A better analogy would saying someone can't find a local catholic church, so he goes to the southern baptist church instead. While there may be some differences to the style of worship, all the basic stuff will still be there: the preacher at the pulpit, the communion, the singing, etc.
So, while the humans are might have a huge feast of thanks, consisting of both grains and meat, with much dancing and celebration, the elves would have a more solemn affair, with just grain and fruit on the table and a dance symbolic of the first harvest. There would be differences, but both the humans and the elves would instantly recognize it as a worship to their god. They might find some of the things the other does kind of weird, but not enough to pronounce them heretics.
Just my opinion.
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So, while the humans are might have a huge feast of thanks, consisting of both grains and meat, with much dancing and celebration, the elves would have a more solemn affair, with just grain and fruit on the table and a dance symbolic of the first harvest. There would be differences, but both the humans and the elves would instantly recognize it as a worship to their god. They might find some of the things the other does kind of weird, but not enough to pronounce them heretics.
Just my opinion.
I think you have the right tack. Let me add my own 2 cp.
Some semi-random thoughts.
Religion is always controversial because it deals with Truth. For this reason it can also be a unifying factor when two people from different backgrounds find a common reference for truth. Truth is not racial.
Lets consider for a moment the protestant - catholic wars. National identity in these wars played some importance but not as much as doctrinal identity. English Catholics would just as happily burn an English Protestant as a French Protestant (or maybe almost as happily). In later years American Protestants (and Catholics) would (and do) pray for the safety of their religious brethren in nations that persecuted them.
I have walked into a worship service in Mexico, where I did not speak the language, but the participants believed as I did and the worship was familiar to me.
To Varisia now... Imagine one god, we'll take Desna - worshipped by both humans and elves. It would be possible, maybe even probable, that splits in doctrine would be more a matter of the interpretation of truth and divine will and less a matter of race. I could see a disagreement in the Desna church - one side teaching the path to enlightenment lay with greater sleep - the other saying it lay with greater travel. They split sharply calling themselves Travelers and Sleepers. Give it some time and you could have a situation where an Elf Sleeper would feel tainted if she worshipped with an Elf Traveler but when visiting a human village she could slip into the Sleepers Ceremony there and though she thought the ceremony a bit simple, would recognize and appreciate all the elements.
To Varisia now... Imagine one god, we'll take Desna - worshipped by both humans and elves. It would be possible, maybe even probable, that splits in doctrine would be more a matter of the interpretation of truth and divine will and less a matter of race. I could see a disagreement in the Desna church - one side teaching the path to enlightenment lay with greater sleep - the other saying it lay with greater travel. They split sharply calling themselves Travelers and Sleepers. Give it some time and you could have a situation where an Elf Sleeper would feel tainted if she worshipped with an Elf Traveler...
Pretty neat ideas... An interesting approach. It doesn't have to be human versus elf, you can have that schism regardless of race.
"I want my children raised as dreamers"...?
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I like the unified pantheon that we have now, but I have always felt something was missing.
I like the idea of dozens of pantheons, for different races and cultures. WHen we look at ancient history, there were scores of peoples living side by side with different, though similar, pantheons. Wars were fought and gods were captured from their home cities and destroyed or held ransom.
That sort of thing is completely missing from most D&D games. How cool would it be for a cleric of the Sun God to run into another cleric of another Sun God and battle it out. Or the god of war makes war upon another god of war and nations go to war.
SInce Pathfinder uses City States, it would be cool if the cities had patron gods. The greek cities each had a patron city god, as did the egyptian and babylonians, etc. The egyptians went through a period where the city that had Aten as a city god gained power and forced all of the country to worship Aten as the one and only god. WHen the city lost favor and a new Pharaoh came in pantheon worship resumed.
But, the downside is tracking dozens of gods and their agendas and such. A small pantheon is useful but I think it misses a lot of background flavor.
{That sort of thing is completely missing from most D&D games.}
Well, that's because in a D&D game, the gods themselves can go to war to decide who is really the god of X. In real life the worshippers take care of all that. If real-life deities had as much of an active presence in the world as D&D deities do, there'd be a huge throwdown and we wouldn't have such redundancies in our pantheons.
I think you may be attributing more variation to racial worship than actually exists. Christianity and Islam, while having the same basis, are two completely different religions. A better analogy would saying someone can't find a local catholic church, so he goes to the southern baptist church instead.
That's actually pretty much my point.
I want the races to be as culturally different as Christians and Muslims. If all that seperates elves from dwarves is that one is Lutheran and one is Baptist, then you're missing a great opportunity for cultural diversity.
From a player's perspective, it becomes "do I want nightvision or darkvision for my cleric?"