Ok, before all 4 of you reading this get excited, I haven't heard anything from Wizards about psionics in 4th ed. Though come to think of it, that'd be another factor in whether or not I make the switch.
Anyway, to start a small little thread for those of us who like and use 3.5 Psionics, what are your thoughts about how the mechanics would change? Yes, this is pure speculation since we know nothing. Let me rephrase the question: what would you like to see changed in 4th edition psionics?
I'll start: not a whole hell of a lot! Having played through every iteration of psionics since 1st edition, I honestly think 3.5 nailed it. Sure, no system is perfect or beyond reproach, but I truly think that 3.5 psionics is one of the highlights of everything Wizards has offered for this version of the game. I know Complete Psionics was a letdown for many of us, but there's enough in there for me to pull out and use to complement the EPH that together there's a lot of good stuff to use.
That then begs the question, if they're going to radically overhaul all the mechanics, just what would they do w/ psionics? At this point, knowing nothing of their design plans, I'm hoping that 3.5 psionics is too new and already different to count as a "sacred cow" they need to fiddle w/ too much. For example, since it's not based on Vancian spellcasting exactly, hopefully they won't throw out the power point pools and scalability of powers. I am worried about one thing in general, and that's that psionics is seen as either a bit too "complex" for some--and that could target it for either a radical overhaul or even, shudder, the axe--or "just not fantasy enough".
I'm posting this here b/c, honestly, I can't stand the WOTC boards any longer. Any thoughts? Hopes? Fears?
You know, being as psionics has always been an add-on/alternate "magic" system, I wonder if the 3.5 psionics would be easily portable to 4E. Part of the reason that the non-Vancian magic systems always had trouble working in 3.x (and believe me, I tried) was because the system and encounters had always been inherently designed with it in mind.
Yet psionics have always been engineered from exactly the opposite angle. i.e. The authors designing the psionics system to dove-tail with or even replace standard magic systems. The key reason why this is successful where Recharge, Vitalizing, Mana Pool and other Unearthed Arcana-style magic options fail is largely due to the manpower of writers behind it and that it's been thoroughly playtested. In essence, where the other options largely require the DM to figure things out and do tons of work, psionics is prepackaged and ready-to-go.
After having looked thru the SW Saga book on multiple occassions now, I was very tempted to buy it and whip up my own 3.75 game. The core mechanics like HP, saves/defenses, weapon damage and AC values (while streamlined) are calculated so much like in 3.x that I have little doubt that the vast majority of 3.5 spells could be employed without breaking stride. The only thing that stopped me was the fact that I wouldn't have had any suitable character classes to substitute for the D&D core classes.
I won't speculate on what form 4E psionics might take, but right now I've got a hunch that Your 3.5 psionics books might not require an upgrade so much as a few hot-fixes. Only time will tell, but it will be interesting to see...
EN World reports only two things on psionics and 4E. First that psionics will not be core but will eventually be supported. Second, Bruce Cordell has said that psionics will work as a "power source", that can be added to the core three (arcane, divine, martial).
To me, that sounds like they plan to follow the format they have created for magic in terms of how psionics will work.
EN World reports only two things on psionics and 4E. First that psionics will not be core but will eventually be supported. Second, Bruce Cordell has said that psionics will work as a "power source", that can be added to the core three (arcane, divine, martial).
To me, that sounds like they plan to follow the format they have created for magic in terms of how psionics will work.
Daeglin, thanks for that report. I never imagined psionics would be core in 4th edition, but it's the "eventually supported" angle that worries me. But it sounds like they've got an idea how to fit it into their new "power source" paradigm. So we'll see how that works out.
Laithoron, I too am hoping that the transition from 3.5 psionics to 4.0 will be less of an overhaul and more of an "adjusting". But since I'd like at least one psionic character in any future parties I play w/, my decision to go w/ 4th ed. will likely be ultimately delayed until they roll it out. Which is fine, actually. I've already decided that I want a year or two to play through my existing 3.5 stuff anyway. So I'm in no rush to be an early converter.
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EN World reports only two things on psionics and 4E. First that psionics will not be core but will eventually be supported. Second, Bruce Cordell has said that psionics will work as a "power source", that can be added to the core three (arcane, divine, martial).
To me, that sounds like they plan to follow the format they have created for magic in terms of how psionics will work.
I'm a big fan of 3.5 Psionics; saying that I like what I just heard here. Hopefully Wilders and Soulknives will be back and a bit better done.
Mind Switch, True better return too. My favorite NPC I designed is based around that power.
I'm a big fan of 3.5 Psionics; saying that I like what I just heard here. Hopefully Wilders and Soulknives will be back and a bit better done.
I haven't tried out a Wilder, but I've heard they can be problematic. My Soulknife character, on the other hand, I very much am enjoying (I have him w/ the Illumine Soul prestige class as well). I know the new feats in CP could have been tightened up a bit, and some people think his BAB is not high enough, but I have no major complaints myself. I use a Psychic Warrior (currently) for my main damage dealer, while the Soulknife is a complementary fighter w/ some great versatility (e.g., can throw his Mindblade).
Ever since I read about psionics in the 1e appendix, its had this definite cool factor that "plain ol' magic" didn't always convey. Like other things in 1e though, I could never get it to balance. Similar to other posters above, 3.5 really seemed to get it right for me, and I hope they are able to keep the flavor in 4e. I suspect the "Vancian" aspects that were applied to keep psionics balanced with the magic system will have to be modified to match whatever they do with the new magic system, but there are two things that keep me hopeful that they'll keep psionics on the right track.
With Eberron being a main setting, they have to address psionics early (likely in tandem with core rule creation) because psionics is so firmly entrenched in a major plot branch of the setting (Sarlona and the Riedrans/Kalashtar). Also, Bruce Cordell has obviously always had a real soft spot for psionics, and with him being a lead designer of 4e, I think there's a good chance he'll be trying to protect his "baby".
Also, Bruce Cordell has obviously always had a real soft spot for psionics, and with him being a lead designer of 4e, I think there's a good chance he'll be trying to protect his "baby".
Ooops. He's not a lead designer, he's on the development team. My bad.
With Eberron being a main setting, they have to address psionics early (likely in tandem with core rule creation) because psionics is so firmly entrenched in a major plot branch of the setting (Sarlona and the Riedrans/Kalashtar). Also, Bruce Cordell has obviously always had a real soft spot for psionics, and ... I think there's a good chance he'll be trying to protect his "baby".
Good points, and promising! I don't play in Eberron, but you've confirmed what little I know about the role psionics plays there.
I think the signs are pointing to psionics support in 2009 (possibly in a PHB 2 since indications are that they'll have a new PHB with new "power sources" each year).
The most promising quote, however, is from Chris Perkins' blog
Everyone Has Opinions
In tinkering with the "story" of D&D, we want to make sure that we don't turn it into something that's not D&D. That's a bit of a trick, because everyone has their own opinions about what's D&D and what's not. No specific example illustrates this point better than psionics, which has been in the game since 1st Edition (and was even in the 1st Edition Player's Handbook). However, some people rebuke it, saying "that's not medieval fantasy!" Maybe they're right. The story team assigned to 4th Edition is committed to making it work. (That said, rules for building psionic characters don't appear in the Player's Handbook. However, we are building these rules now so that they're integrated with the core system.) Naturally, a DM can still choose to disallow psionics in his or her campaign; I heartily empower all DMs to make the call that's right for them and their players. That includes scrubbing the D&D cosmology, the D&D core pantheon, or whatever else doesn't work in your home game.
As for how the rules might look, there's also this quote from an earlier blog of his
So, Andrew Finch came to me this morning with a great idea for what could be done with the d20 Modern magic and psionics subsystems, based on his experiences playing Force-users in the Star Wars RPG Saga Edition. He'd spent the weekend thinking about it, 'cause that's what people in R&D do when they're not watching Heroes on DVD. I love hypothetical rules discussions. This particular conversation was arguably the best 15 minutes of my day, which, as it happens, is quickly coming to an end.
However, take that with a grain of salt because it's grammatically unclear. Is it "d20 Modern magic" and "psionic" subsystems? Or is it d20 Modern "magic and psionic" subsystems? (I hope that makes sense - basically whether or not 'Modern' modifying only 'magic' or both 'magic' and 'psionic'.)
Either way, I would figure the 4e psionics would probably include several of the things we are hearing about with other 4e spellcasting. Namely:
- the splitting of power levels over all 30 (rather than just 9)
- class abilities that are per day (like psionic powers currently in their own way), per encounter, and at will. With the psionic flavor, those could be very interesting in my mind.
- possibly some separating of powers into the "silos" they refer to, which could be related to the per day/encounter/at will differences. Namely probably separating offensive, defensive, and utility abilities into different tracks so that you don't have to worry as much about sacrificing utility to get more combat ability, etc.
I could easily see current psionic powers that are really only useful out of combat becoming their own list of things that psions can use at will. Just a guess, but combat is typically where you have to more restrictive in number of uses and such. So non-combat abilities are easier to have balanced as "at will" and not worry about making players keep track of them.
I also wouldn't be surprised to see psion and wilder merged together. The psion will most likely get more class abilities (probably talent trees like are in Star Wars Saga Edition) and one or more of the talent trees will be wilder-like abilities.
As long as they keep the soulknife around in some form (and psion, too, but that's obvious) because I really love the concept of that class, I'll be happy. Psy Warrior I could see being made obsolete by better multiclassing rules for psion-fighters, but there could be enough flavor concept to build a class.
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It is my belief that what WoTC is doing to is make "Power Sources" run on essentially the same mechanic. 3E and previous had different mechanic for Martial Powers (a la BoNS) Psionics, Magic (Vancean), Eldritch (warlock), etc. etc.
This new paradigm will work under the same underlying mechanic. What this means to me is that Arcane users, Divine Users, and Martial Users (and Psionic, Nature if introduced) will have a great deal of similarity in regards to the actual "spells" cast. The differences will largely be in name only. I think they are going to make the mistake of making the classes seem functionally similar along the "defender, striker, controller, leader" lines at best, and very similar along all class lines at worst.
I think the signs are pointing to psionics support in 2009 (possibly in a PHB 2 since indications are that they'll have a new PHB with new "power sources" each year).
The most promising quote, however, is from Chris Perkins' blog... So, Andrew Finch came to me this morning with a great idea for what could be done with the d20 Modern magic and psionics subsystems, based on his experiences playing Force-users in the Star Wars RPG Saga Edition....
Interesting. I'm going to have to go check out what d20 Modern has for psionics. I suspect your predictions will be spot on.
I think the signs are pointing to psionics support in 2009 (possibly in a PHB 2 since indications are that they'll have a new PHB with new "power sources" each year).
That might work out for me after all. If I switch to 4th ed., it won't be early on anyway. Too much 3rd ed. stuff to play through. I'll have to keep my fingers crossed it all works out.
Thanks for the updates.