Creative Director
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Excuse me? Publish as 3.5? Yes because new 3.5 products are selling so well these days right? Sarcasm aside I think that the time spent converting it to PFRPG would be well worth it as NG fans, me included, have moved onto other stuff, namely Golarion.
You're dead on about the 4E though. Bleh.
Well.. Paizo's doing well enough selling 3.5 products to support a company of 25 or so employees, so from where I'm standing 3.5 stuff's doing pretty well indeed.
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Creative Director
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I didn't think this last scenario was even possible based on what Clark has said, although I would love to see it. However, I'm confused as to why the revised GSL has to come out to make such a thing possible. What does the GSL have to do with a 3.5 product? (Or do you mean (IIRC) the provision restricting use of the OGL if a company adopts the GSL?)
As for releasing it under Pathfinder, I just figured Necromancer would release it through you as "compatible with OGL/3.5 and the Pathfinder RPG", not a Golarion adventure.
Your statement about confusing the brands, however, is an interesting point, but that unfortunately means that should Necro decide to publish this or anything for the Pathfinder RPG that they would be subject to creative restrictions (make it fit Golarion). Potentially makes the partnership a bit odd, no? (I'm probably missing something, but what seemed like a match made in heaven when it was first announced doesn't make sense to me now.)
The industry is a vastly different place today than it was when the Paizo/Necromancer partnership started, of course. Clark doesn't seem that interested in doing new 3.5 stuff, and the GSL won't currently let him do 4th edition products the way he wants, so Necromancer stuff has pretty much been in a dead-end limbo for many months as a result. All of which is more or less fallout from the debacle that is the 4th Edition GSL. I'd LOVE to publish Necromancer Games-branded 3.5 adventures, and I personally think that they'd do well—the line's problems have never been due to the quality of the products themselves, but due to shabby distribution type woes. That's a place Paizo's poised to do a great job with... a better job, I'd say, than the previous distribution deals Necromancer's had. But until the GSL thing clears up, or until Clark abandons his hopes of doing any 4th Edition product at all... everything remains in that limbo I mentioned above. Alas. :(
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Well.. Paizo's doing well enough selling 3.5 products to support a company of 25 or so employees, so from where I'm standing 3.5 stuff's doing pretty well indeed.Excuse me? Publish as 3.5? Yes because new 3.5 products are selling so well these days right? Sarcasm aside I think that the time spent converting it to PFRPG would be well worth it as NG fans, me included, have moved onto other stuff, namely Golarion.
You're dead on about the 4E though. Bleh.
Fair enough, I'm just calling it as I see it. Every FLGS I've been in lately is boxing up ALL their 3.X stuff and letting it go at a hefty discount. Paizo had a similar green ronin sale this week didn't they? The stores I've been in certainly are receptive to 4E and Pathfinder RPG both having huge displays. That's "new" stuff though, 4E and "3.75". They can move that. They need to unload the dead merchandise, especially in this economy.
If you as a publisher say hey retailer I've got this great new 3.5 adventure for you I'd be surprised if they didn't laugh. Dude they've got stacks of 3.X stuff they're trying to unload and here you are trying to add more to the problem. Not going to happen. Also customers are going to balk at full price. Why in your right mind would you buy a new full price 3.5 adventure when everyone is loading up on discount 3.x stuff? I could probably buy three adventures for the price of that one. It's probably even old Necromancer stuff.See where I'm coming from?
Thanks for the candor, James! I hope your thoughts become reality. :)
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Alex i think Jacobs' point was that right now all but the PFRPG of Paizo products is still 3.5e and still selling well.
As for the other 3.5 stuff well lets be fair a lot of it wasn't very good and some was god awful and their was a metric ton of it released. So i am sure sales dropped and likely after the major buy some people went on to grab those last minute items of 3.5 to complete their libaries I am sure sales have dropped. Plus most of it that is left in most stores least locally are stuff I seen mostly get bad reviews.
Now I am not saying 3.5 would sell real well new stuff, but I think if it was sold thru Paizo. Stores would order it cause they are still ordering Paizo 3.5 stuff and it sells good enough to keep paizo going. Necro stuff marketed that way might not sell as well but I am with James I think it would sell well enough. I understand why Clark is waiting and why he worries it won't but I personally think it will.
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Its nice to see that even the EiC of Pathfinder thinks that NG could still make a go with 3.5 if they really wanted to.In addtion I also think that thats pretty high praise For NG if the worst aspect of the products was the distubution problems.
It just reinforces in me the idea that NG is a great company and could really put out some great product again if Clark gets out of the OGL/GSL Limbo. Either 3.5 or 4e (hopefully 3.5 stuff, fingers crossed)
Ill admit it tho, Im a Greg Vaughan fanboy! Must have more published Vaughan material...seriously unless you want me pulling a Misery kidnapping thing on you Greg get writing...
I'm back w/ some more concrete suggestions to get this published for 3.5. Recent threads have clarified a few things for me (like, forget about retooling it for Golarion).
Have a new GameMastery line similar to LB (Last Baron). Call it NG (Necromancer Games), OW (Other Worlds), whatever. This defuses the argument that people aren't buying 3.5x. Stores are definitely buying Paizo releases, and this gets the product into stores. Plus, promote the hell out of it here on the website, as well as NG's website. It will at the very least sell as well as any other GM module(s).
The further advantages are that this product appeals to various subgroups on these boards and elsewhere:
those who want a 3-part story arc (similar to Greg's excellent Istivin trilogy in Dungeon) rather than a full-fledged 6-part AP;
those who are fans of Greg's work in general, from Dungeon and/or Pathfinder;
those who simply love well-done adventures;
NG fans who have waited forever for some new product, many of which won't be following Clark if he takes the company over to 4.x; and,
those who might want an adventure covering higher levels (I actually have no idea of the level-range, but it did mention a demon lord, so I've guessed it might be for higher levels at some point).
My earlier offer to buy up $500 of the 1st module, and let Paizo use them in a contest of some sort to drum up interest, still stands. People would only have to pay the postage; the module would be otherwise paid for if they were a lucky winner. Creative marketing I hope.
I know the real hold up to remain is the "revised" GSL, aka potential vaporware. But maybe this could contribute to a decision in some small way for Clark, in which case it would be time (and money) well spent for me.
These adventures will take a 7th-level party to 20th level or higher.
those who might want an adventure covering higher levels (I actually have no idea of the level-range, but it did mention a demon lord, so I've guessed it might be for higher levels at some point).
Sah-weet! Hard to imagine, but I want it even more now.
These adventures will take a 7th-level party to 20th level or higher.
Yes, but that's only if your character can survive that long.
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CEO
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Fair enough, I'm just calling it as I see it. Every FLGS I've been in lately is boxing up ALL their 3.X stuff and letting it go at a hefty discount. Paizo had a similar green ronin sale this week didn't they? The stores I've been in certainly are receptive to 4E and Pathfinder RPG both having huge displays. That's "new" stuff though, 4E and "3.75". They can move that. They need to unload the dead merchandise, especially in this economy.
Just wanted to point out that the reason there are all these deep discount sales of various d20 products is that those manufacturers used the d20 license instead of the OGL license. Wizards has rescinded the d20 license and all stock needs to be sold or destroyed by the end of 2008. Thus the big blow-out sales. You are better off getting something for your backstock than nothing. The OGL will never end, and since Paizo is using that license, we don't need to sell off our stock.
Now, I am not saying that some 8 year old product isn't dead in the water, but new 3rd edition stuff is doing just fine as far as I can tell.
-Lisa
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These adventures will take a 7th-level party to 20th level or higher.Yes, but that's only if your character can survive that long.I never said a party of "the same characters."
Note: BV210 took part extensively in the playtest of ST1 and actually had one of the lower death tolls of the group. Of course, not everyone has a half-ogre PC that can take a header off a 200-ft. cliff and still get up to run away...so his perspective may not be that of the average PC.
Ok then, what was the average death toll for the campaign?
Does it beat Rappan Athuk Reloaded?Anyway, I am really sad that we probably won't see this Campaign until late 2009. I am also sad that we will pobably see it in 4th edition. Although I like and play 4th edition, I think, from what I have read so far, that this epic is more suited for 3.5 than 4th. In the end, if it comes to fighting the BBEG. And if the BBEG is what I think he is, I want him to be a fearsome foe with dozens of abilities, spells, attacks and so on and not an elite xxth level solo monster out of the MM. So Clark, if you read this, whip up some cool campaign that fits 4th edition rules and 1st edition flair perfectly, but give us Sleeping Tsar as 3.5!
Just wanted to point out that the reason there are all these deep discount sales of various d20 products is that those manufacturers used the d20 license instead of the OGL license. Wizards has rescinded the d20 license and all stock needs to be sold or destroyed by the end of 2008.
Other than an interview with Scott Rouse posted in an online magazine (IIRC), how do we know this? Has WotC officially terminated the d20 license in writing? Because I have not seen any such official notice.
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I have mixed feelings about the "killer dungeon". On the one hand Its nice to be challenged both as a PC and a player. On the other I find it hard to play in a long term game when your character gets killed all the time. Raise dead solves that problem if circumstances make it possible. I think character death is important for a game but it needs to be handled properly by both the DM and the players.
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CEO
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Other than an interview with Scott Rouse posted in an online magazine (IIRC), how do we know this? Has WotC officially terminated the d20 license in writing? Because I have not seen any such official notice.Just wanted to point out that the reason there are all these deep discount sales of various d20 products is that those manufacturers used the d20 license instead of the OGL license. Wizards has rescinded the d20 license and all stock needs to be sold or destroyed by the end of 2008.
Since we haven't used the d20 license to make products, Wizards wouldn't have contacted us. I am assuming that other manufacturers were contacted by WotC. But perhaps not. Perhaps people are just making assumptions that what Scott posted is correct. Since WotC doesn't HAVE to give notice, I think manufacturers are taking Scott at his word and getting out while they can.
-Lisa
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I don't know that I'd call them "killer dungeons." That makes me think of Tomb of Horrors or, I guess, Rappan Athuk to a certain extent. Those seem like dungeons designed with killing in mind as much as anything. Of the three adventures, only ST3 is a true dungeon, and it, like all three of them, is designed with "story" in mind.
I always see "killer" adventures as the RPG equivalent of "Die Hard". The Playr should survive but come out of it victoribous but bloodied and at the end of their ressources.
No fun to slaughter PCs, that is easy, but to kep them on th knife's edge and let them having fun, now that is difficult!|
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I don't know that I'd call them "killer dungeons." That makes me think of Tomb of Horrors or, I guess, Rappan Athuk to a certain extent. Those seem like dungeons designed with killing in mind as much as anything. Of the three adventures, only ST3 is a true dungeon, and it, like all three of them, is designed with "story" in mind.I always see "killer" adventures as the RPG equivalent of "Die Hard". The Playr should survive but come out of it victoribous but bloodied and at the end of their ressources.
No fun to slaughter PCs, that is easy, but to kep them on th knife's edge and let them having fun, now that is difficult!
I would agree very strongly with this statement.
I found when I ran Rapen Athuk killing the PC's was easy. I became rather disastisfied with that particular game,which was thankfully and an end anyway. I decided that from there on in as a DM I would strive to make the PC's fear for their lives buy being fair and firm, and making sure that everyone was having fun.
I guess thats one of my peeves about Call of Cthulhu. I ran Shadows of Yog-Sothoth using the BRP rules and the players and my self had some good fun playing. Near the end of the campaign the players investigate this movie set in the desert and a TPK ensued shortly after. After that they all rolled up new characters and we continued on with the game, but after that it had lost the momentum and when the new characters finally killed the long running arch nemisis it was rather anti-climatic.
Since we haven't used the d20 license to make products, Wizards wouldn't have contacted us. I am assuming that other manufacturers were contacted by WotC. But perhaps not. Perhaps people are just making assumptions that what Scott posted is correct. Since WotC doesn't HAVE to give notice, I think manufacturers are taking Scott at his word and getting out while they can.
-Lisa
It's nice that Paizo doesn't have to care about it, isn't it? :)
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I would agree very strongly with this statement.
Thanks!
A few years ago there was Campaign Log on EN world called Twenty Years After: the Temple of Elemental Evil 2" written by (contact). This campaign is for me the epitome of "killer dungeon". I think they had about 17 PC deaths. But if you read the logs - and I strongly suggest that you do- you really want to play with these guys. This is how you do killer dungeons as DM and player.
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Holy Crap!
Thats a great campaign log, and long...like 314 pages long!
Thanks for the pointer, reading it does make you wish you could set in on that kind of action yourself.
Yeah, but only the first 45 pages are of The Temple of Elemental Evil II. The rest is for the campaign "The Liberation of Tenh" where Heydricus and Co. kill the sh$t out of Iuzians...
Is it this one, or this one, Dread Orcus?
Yeah, pour Tabasco in the cut, Vaughan...
Greg,
Hopefully I'm not stepping out of line here but I figured I would pass this along in case you may have missed it.
Greg, if you are out there, email me.
Clark
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Not at all. I had indeed missed it. E-mail going out now. Thanks.Greg,
Hopefully I'm not stepping out of line here...
Oh my gosh, this is the best news I've heard in a really, really long while.
Greg, is there anything your fans can do to help?!? I could mail you one of those gel wrist pads that help when lots of typing is looming...
Paizo, please, please publish this.
Necromancer, please, please release this!
Who else can I beg to?
~sighs sadly~ Fine! Be that way! Just come up with more ways to abuse my poor, poor wallet! Meanie! You are FORCING me to buy this, I will have you know. Especially if it is updated for the PF RPG ruleset! You big bully! Leave my wallet alone!
My wallet seems to have taken a liking to the abuse. The mere mention of Paizo will send it into a fit of screaming "Whip me! Beat me! It hurts so good!". It can be rather embarassing when it happens in public.
Actually, the possibility that it would be released later, updated to the PfRPG rules, would make it well worth the wait.
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Want to see it for Pathfinder or 3.5!
Want to see how Orcus in all his dark Majesty and Glory does the Players in at the end*
So:
Paizo - publish it!
Necromancer - give it to Paizo for publication.
Clark - badger the Rouse that he gets annoyed enough to not only speak about working on the GSL but really doing it. Then open up the Floodgates and swamp us with 4th edition necromancer goodness!
*note: in my Games Orcus will NEVER loose!
Starts to set aside money to procure book
Ohhh Dread Santa Claus! Heed thy humble petitioner and bring me this book! It looks sooooo KEWL! I promise no cookies, only prime rib and pre-1933 American gold coins by the hearth this year! Grant me this one boon!
Spread the love.
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It's not a matter of Necromancer releasing it and Paizo publishing it, it's a matter of Paizo and Necromancer publishing together through their partnership--the best of both worlds. :-)
I stand corrected!
This is the best of both worlds.Will you create a mixed company?
How will you call it? PaiNe? NecroZo?
And Erik and Clark walking in a field of daisies into the sunset...
And Erik and Clark walking in a field of daisies into the sunset...
*Backs away slowly*
(Not that there's anything wrong with that.)
Hey Greg A. Vaughn, does the "A" stand for "Awesome"?
You rock! I sooo hope this gets published.
I think I know how to drum up interest.... start one of those "curiosity campaigns". From now on, anyone who is interested in Slumbering Tsar ends every post on this or any other D&D related message board as follows:
<Slumbering Tsar>
At first it will be weird and people will be curious. Then people will get to know what it is (with the all powerful google). It'll catch on like wildfire. Eventually it will get annoying, but by that time, it'll be published, and the world will be a brighter place.
And I can just see the commercials for the Necromancer/Paizo partnership:
Clark: "Hey you got Paizo in my Necromancer!"
Erik Mona: "No, you got Necromancer in my Paizo!"
"two great publishers that publish great together."
<Slumbering Tsar>
Please, please, please, please, please let this happen...
Hey Greg A. Vaughn, does the "A" stand for "Awesome"?
Somewhere Richard Pett just felt a great disturbance in the force.
Darth Tammeraut
I like that. I'll have to add that to my repertoire at family gatherings.