Although the final installments in the STAP are still a fair bit off, my players have come up with a spell combo, which, while not really overpowered, does cause me some headaches with regard to Khala (who is entering their sights pretty soon) , Demogorgon and all of the other "two brains and/or sets of full round actions" guys
The bone of contention is "ray of dizziness" from the SC (p, basically a mind affecting, no save ray-delivered single person slow, reducing the target struck to either a standard action or a move action each round, but forbids full-round actions.
Since JJ is the man behind Demogorgons reincarnation, what is your take on the effect on Big-D ? Does this spell affect only one of the minds of Demogorgon, both and if yes, in what way ?
My take would be (atm) one head gets reduced to single standard or move actions, the other stays unaffected. Random roll as to see who gets affected first.
As for Khala, does a "mind affecting (compulsion)" type spell present a 'confusion', and is hence affected/blocked by his immunity ? This of course concerns Gorgant the two-faced as well.
Thanks a bunch
That's a pretty nasty third level spell. I'd be as nasty as possible and rule it in the way that will most favor your villain. It is your job to keep the game challenging for the players. At least Khalla or whoever can dispel it on himself. Try to take advantage of some of Khala's own tricks, like project image, his gaze and his nastier spells. Hit that mage with feeblemind. If they pull this try to keep the Wastrilith alive so he can swap out and then dispel the effect on himself then come back into battle by teleporting in behind the spell caster and then kick the crap out of him or her.
I find it disturbing that a 1st level spell can inflict more of an ability penalty (requiring only a ranged touch attack roll, allowing no saving throw) than a bestow curse (at the least allowing a saving throw). Granted, the curse lasts longer, but since most fights are over within 5 rounds or less, it doesn't matter overmuch.
Unless the curse is around long enough for multiple encounters, then it's ok.
Creative Director
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Ray of dizzyness (which is a 3rd level spell, in any event) would affect Khala; his immunity to confusion and charm won't save him. That said, it would only affect one of his minds, I would say.
That said... the design philosophy that "rays don't allow saves" is treacherous. In the case of things like simple damage rays, I'm okay with it, but in cases like this, saving throuws shouldn't go out the window so easilly...
Ray of dizzyness (which is a 3rd level spell, in any event) would affect Khala; his immunity to confusion and charm won't save him. That said, it would only affect one of his minds, I would say.
That said... the design philosophy that "rays don't allow saves" is treacherous. In the case of things like simple damage rays, I'm okay with it, but in cases like this, saving throuws shouldn't go out the window so easilly...
Oh, Mr D is not going to get punked out with me at the screen with such cheese as an Otto's Dance, let alone anything of less substantial magical oomph. Basically, a Mind Blank that translates mind-affecting effects are contingent upon whatever affects him mentally has to affect BOTH of his minds to work at all, much like the Compartmentalized Mind advantage from GURPS. Well, actually, he has a Compartmentalized Mind, so I guess it would be more accurate to say that hostile mind-affecting effects have to be placed identically [say, via Twin Spell metamagic] and simultaneously in order to work on him at all. If one successfully resists but the other does not, that effectively neutralizes him for at least a round as a Greater Dispel has to be expended to throw off the effect.
'Sides, he has that lovely uber-item-crafter special ability, and almost no gear to speak of in his write up. Demogorgon is VERY customizable 'as written'. *Grins evilly*
Effects such as Spell Turning come readily to mind ... counterspelling items ... counterspelling in general ... yeah, the main baddies are not so squishy as some would like to believe them to be. *Continues grinning evilly.*
Ray of dizzyness (which is a 3rd level spell, in any event) would affect Khala; his immunity to confusion and charm won't save him. That said, it would only affect one of his minds, I would say.
I'm inclined to agree that Demogorgon (and his aspects) are immune to the effects of mind-affecting spells that have one target; or, better still, he would only be affected if both minds were target. Since the spell doesn't necessarily target any part of the aspect's physiology, I would only let this fly in my campaign if the spell were...say, split, or twinned.
Darn Spell Compendium rays...
Ray of dizzyness (which is a 3rd level spell, in any event) would affect Khala; his immunity to confusion and charm won't save him. That said, it would only affect one of his minds, I would say.I'm inclined to agree that Demogorgon (and his aspects) are immune to the effects of mind-affecting spells that have one target; or, better still, he would only be affected if both minds were target. Since the spell doesn't necessarily target any part of the aspect's physiology, I would only let this fly in my campaign if the spell were...say, split, or twinned.
Darn Spell Compendium rays...
Sounds to me like there are some broken spells or at the very least a partially broken mechanic.
At one point in the STAP sometime during Divided's Ire, Big-D begins to take notice of the party, I plan on having Big-D take more than a passing interest in the party, so much that he has some of his minions scrying on them almost continuously, examining them for techniques, tendancies and tactics. So when it comes to the big meeting, Monkeyboy will have counters for all their tricks to date, via spells, magic items or other preparations.
Could one head concentrate on countering spells while the other plays whack-a-mole?
Cheers!
Thanks for the quick answers, CoBI comes up on the WE, and with my luck, they simply drop in on Khala shaft-wise in the first session, hehe
As for "pimp the Big-D"...
well, looking at Big-D only realizing the angle at which the final battle resolves at the very last moment ( in the middle of a raging battle with Eladrin, which strikes me as an inopportune time, if any ), I would sincerley doubt him "well-prepared for the PCs".
Frankly, to my mind, he/they don't expect to meet the mortal agents (PCs) anytime soon ( or he would not have made that business appointment with Gwenny..),besides the obvious indicators in the STAP's flavour text at that point, so I guess, he doesn't carry around his "super-stuff", or rather, different super stuff (like something to cause grieveous harm to Eladrins )
. Also, being in the middle of a multiple front war with Orcus' troops, the Shining Host and others ravaging through his demesne, he might just be a bit short on his "spare-time" to create magic items. Or, rather BUSY !!!
Plus, taking a look at the two "mind blank" items currently stated in the rules (both at a 110 - 125k price ) he will take roughly 4 months to create one from scratch.... Time, which in all likelihood and with regard to the time-restraint the players are acting under after WoD (66 days), he will not have. Right, let him break the the rules of the game for his own convenience, but that basically brings down the game to the point of the GM arbitrarily deciding "shall the players or I win" ... not all that mature in attitude. YMMV
Third, given the absurd save-modifiers Demogorgon features (basically he can only fail a save on a "1"... I mean his modifiers are above +40, right ? How big can the save DC for an arcane caster become ingame ? DC 32 or DC 34 ? OMG...) renders any offensive magic with a save against him rather..... useless ? Did I mention he has SR ?
Fourth BBEG need (IMHO ) a weakness so they can be overcome at all. Given that Demogorgon already fights in constrained quarters (vastly favouring him), and with the advantage of a surprise round (which really looks arbitrary, from the whole setup of the battle), and at a CR that nicely exceeds that of Kassus in AoW... not to mention the fact that the PCs are dumped into the final battle without much warning and with depleted capabilities... I guess, under those circumstances Ray-delivered spells are just about the only offensive magic that really has a chance of directly affecting the battle much.Especialyl since DnD does not feature all taht many debuffs to soften up the target...
Oh, and lastly, looking at his hefty AC 19 vs ranged touch attacks, probably having to be fired smack into a melee, too (-4 to hit, unless the mage wasted two feats ), I would say, it is not so easy at all to even get to him with the ray at all. I mean we are looking at casters here, with a max +10 (?) BAB, less if multi-classed and perhaps a +4 from Dex ? Yikes... a rough 50/50 chance to even hit him.... and that is, before his tremendous SR even comes into effect..... what was it again ? SR 56 unmodified ? Poor sod.... does he even stand a chance ? Right, he does !
But I will likely run with JJs suggestion for him - have one mind be affected, the other staying fully operational.
Which leaves my Khala question basically unresolved - but well, what is fair for the master, is good enough for the serf, I guess.
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When it comes to Khala, there are a few things to keep in mind that affect what you are talking about. First, is he has a SR of 28. According to the adventure guidlines, the party should be level 14 when facing him. Even with a player who has full caster progression, and the Spell Penetration feat, they will have to roll a 12 on the d20 to get the ray through his SR. Then if they succeed in that, they need to hit a touch AC of 16. Again, assuming a dedicated caster, they will have a base attack of +7 at that point, and probably a Dex modifier between +4 and +5 at that point, but at a -4 if firing into melee. Thus they need to hit a touch AC of basically 20 with a ranged touch modifier of around +10 or so. That means they have only 50/50 odds of hitting his touch AC. So you take the 40% chance they have to get by SR, and then add on to that the 50% chance they will hit his AC, and you only have 20% odds that they can do both. If they make it through bot of those, good for them. Once he is affected, he can cast Greater Dispel Magic at will at 20th caster level. So he can dispel the effect on himself readily enough with a fairly inconsequential role on the dispel check.
I personally don't see a reason to mess with the spell itself. Khala is still allowed a standard action each round if affected by the spell. More to the point, he has 6 Skulvyns and their associated slow auras along with a summoned retriever backing him up. If the PC's come from the main entrance, you can place things such that the PC's have to face 6 saving throws against Slow auras, and have to do that while the Retriever sits back and peppers them with eye rays the whole time. The Slow aura requires a DC 19 will save to overcome, so your casters will likely make it easily enough, but your melee types likely will fail at least one of them. If your caster is spending every round casting Ray of Diziness, then they aren't using artillery type spells to hurt Khala. If your melee type is tied up by Slow auras, then there is no easy way to hurt Khala until the caster starts using offensive magic. Since Khala can dispel every round, the party will eventually run out of Ray of Dizziness spells and realize they need to actually try to hurt Khala. If the party uses it just to buy themselves a round so Khala has to spend that round dispelling the effect, then good for them. They are thinking well ahead. If they plan to just fight him at range, while keeping him occupied with Ray of Diziness, then no worries. Set up the Skulvyn's to block the entrance, and then have the retriever and Khala used their ranged attacks. The retriever basically gets a 12d6 energy attack every round as a free action, and Khala gets a 6d6 acid plus 1 level drain every round using his breath attack. Just pepper the party until they are forced to do something to engage or do something else. Better yet, have Khala start off hiding, and projecting an image to the party. They likely won't bother to figure out the projected image isn't Khala and fire away. Let them burn that Ray of Diziness on his image while the Retriever and Skulvyns wear them down. Then have Khala cast his Feeblemind on the caster (total save DC of 22, but at a -4 penalty if the character is a primary caster). Then have Khala get in close where the party has to avert their eyes to avoid making Will saves every round against his two gaze attacks. If they can't see him, they can't target him.
I never like nerfing spells or the like to try to make fights harder for the players. There are better ways to do things. Heck, if you just have Khala start off within 30 ft of where the players enter, everyone has to make two DC 27 will saves every round to avoid being affected by fear or confusion. Even a dedicated caster has only a 50/50 chance to make a DC 27 will save, and that is if they have some decent saving throw boosting abilities or items. To avoid the saves they have to avert their eyes, which means no targeting Ray spells.
I think if the players manage to use the spell then they shouldn't be penalized for it, and even if they do, that is no guarantee that Khala is done. He is plenty tough enough as is, especially when factoring in his environment and his minions without unnecessarily nerfing a spell that he can deal with using greater dispel magic every round if necessary.
k, thanks, my freehand calculations came to nearly the same expected chance.
And looking at my group, a DC 27 will save is plenty. Except for the multiclassed mage everybody else is dealing with a +9 - +12 will save modifier.. which is not going to be all that easy to survive with. And I don't think they skimped on equipments or buffs.