Pathfinder Grand Inspiring Cognatogen Clarification

[Jslotskies]

The above named discovery says:
"Benefit(s): The alchemist’s inspiring cognatogen now grants a +4 dodge bonus to AC and a +4 bonus to Reflex saving throws; a –6 penalty to Strength and Constitution; and the effects of having the item lore, tenacious inspiration, and underworld inspiration investigator talents."

The less potent version is Greater Inspiring Cognatogen, and it says:
"Benefit(s): The alchemist’s inspiring cognatogen now grants a +2 dodge bonus to AC and a +2 bonus to Reflex saving throws; a –4 penalty to Strength and Constitution; and the effects of having the amazing inspiration, eidetic recollection, and expanded inspiration investigator discoveries."

The base model says, in part:
"Benefit(s): An alchemist with this discovery learns how to make an inspiring cognatogen, a mutagen-like mixture that grants him inspiration (as the investigator’s class feature) at the expense of Strength and Constitution.

Upon drinking the inspiring cognatogen, the alchemist gains a pool of inspiration equal to 1/2 his alchemist level + his Intelligence modifier (minimum 1). He also gains a +2 dodge bonus to AC and takes a –2 penalty to both Strength and Constitution. As a free action, the alchemist can add 1d6 to the result of an ability or skill check (including any he takes 10 or 20 on) by expending one use of inspiration. This ability works exactly like the investigator’s inspiration ability, except that the alchemist gains the pool of inspiration upon drinking the inspiring cognatogen, and any unspent inspiration is lost at the end of the cognatogen’s duration. If the alchemist already has access to inspiration, the inspiration added by the inspiring cognatogen is added to his inspiration pool, but each time he expends at least one use of inspiration while this ability is active, he must succeed at a DC 20 Will saving throw or become dazed for 1 round. He cannot use inspiration to augment this saving throw."

I think it is safe to infer from base to greater (based on the investigator discoveries greater provides) that you get to keep the inspiration pool. This is less obvious for Grand. Do you get to keep the discoveries from greater when drinking grand, or is it a swap? Would anyone in their right mind take the increased negatives for a less viable set of discoveries, and potentially no pool? Does grand, which doesn't specifically provide the inspiration pool related discoveries let you keep the inspiration pool from the base model? Is the dodge bonus in greater or grand meant to replace the one provided by the lower level cognatogen, or be additive; if it is meant to replace it, why mention an unchanging dodge bonus from base to greater? If the formula is mention everything that stays the same or changes, for clarity, why not include the inspiration pool, which RAW, only applies to the base model (note the use of the definite rather than an indefinite article near the start of the second paragraph of the base model ("the" vs. "an" or "a")?

Finally, I know the base model is worded to add only the weaknesses of mutagens to inspiring cognatogens, but they also include some of the strengths like persistence and use the word "etc." Did the developers intend for a discovery like bone spike mutagen to be applicable to an inspiring cognatogen?

Clarification would be appreciated.

[Derklord]

Jslotskies wrote:

Do you get to keep the discoveries from greater when drinking grand, or is it a swap?

To answer this question, we look at how the talents work. GreaterIC and GrandIC both are passive talents that modifies the basic Inspiring Cognatogen. When you have GreaterIC, you aren't crafting a "Greater Inspiring Cognatogen" item, you're crafting a "Inspiring Cognatogen" item (that has additional effects when drunk), dito for GrandIC.

This means that both GreaterIC and GrandIC are added to the effects of the base IC. RAW, this includes to numeric bonuses and penalties, which also all stack except for the reflex save bonuses. RAW, you get -12 con, -12 str, +8 AC, +4 ref, and all the inspiration stuff and Investigator talents.

I think it's clear that this is not intended, I am very sure the intended effect is that you use the numerical stuff from the highest level talent, and add in all the other stuff from all the talents.

Jslotskies wrote:

if it is meant to replace it, why mention an unchanging dodge bonus from base to greater?

Presumably to clarify that it's not lost. There are many examples of such text, e.g. that many bonus feat class features say "These bonus feats are in addition to the feats that a character of any class gets from advancing levels.", despite that being utterly redundant thanks to the meaning of the word "bonus".

Jslotskies wrote:

If the formula is mention everything that stays the same or changes, for clarity, why not include the inspiration pool, which RAW, only applies to the base model

Presumably to save space. As addressed uppost, RAW the inspiration pool is applied.

Jslotskies wrote:

Finally, I know the base model is worded to add only the weaknesses of mutagens to inspiring cognatogens, but they also include some of the strengths like persistence and use the word "etc."

Er, what? There is no "etc." in the text. That Infuse Mutagen and Persistent Mutagen can be applies is a special exception, it does not apply to anything beyond those two mentioned talents.