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Hmmm..... for the first time on these boards I find myself in the very small minority...
To answer some of the complaints, both around the teaser commercial and the announcement of the upcoming edition:
I enjoyed the commercial, and I laughed at the jokes.
I'm very, very interested in 4e, and I can't wait until May.
I already use my MacBook at the table, so as long as the DI supports Mac, I'll be there.
I used a Proxima at the meeting room at the hospital for the last four years, projected the map on the table, and used a digital white board to track progress and display HOs, so the DM's Eye View display and HOs support got me jumping.
I think every edition of the game has released the books a month or more apart; I know 1E did and 3E did, I don't remember RE 2E...ha, ha, hee, hee... ;)
Most of my support of the game books so far has been the fluff books; of which info is unlikely to change too much due to mechanical changes in the game. Mechanics are expected to change, so who cares?
As far as online Dragon and Dungeon, it looks to be promising, and the first issue includes an adventure by Logue, and a return to Tsojcanth; and another Demonomicon installment by James Jacobs, so while I still and will always miss my HC mags, the really important stuff is still there. Unless the subscription is just totally outrageous, or there is a caveat of 'can't read what I've paid for in the past because my sub ran out', I'll subscribe to both and probably the full online experience, as well.
I can't be the only guy out there...
I'm positive about the whole thing.
Frankly, I think D&D needs some changes, I just hope they satisfy.
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The response on the EnWorld boards is trending more towards the positive side than on the Paizo boards.
Having said that, me no likey the 4e announcement. I'll keep an open mind, but 4e needs to be a significant advancement both in game play and game atmosphere for me to sign on.
Anecdotally, I've been through the 2e and 3e conversions. Both of those I was quite excited about, as were the folks I gamed with. Currently I game with 3 groups (16 players/DMs total) and not one is excited about the new edition. There are 3 people who are neutral about it. The rest of us actually feel sad and a bit upset about it. There are 0 advocates for a change to the new edition (where for the previous editions there were always advocates right out of the gate).
The overall feeling from my groups is 'it isn't time' yet for a new edition (for 2e and 3e we were ready), plus an overall fear that this represents a new WotC/Hasbro business model that necessitates a new edition every 4 to 5 years.
With 3.5 not too long ago, we're already experiencing conversion fatigue.
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... plus an overall fear that this represents a new WotC/Hasbro business model that necessitates a new edition every 4 to 5 years...
DESIGNER: Grapple is just not working.
SUIT: We must finalize and get to print, now.DESIGNER: Yeah...but...grapple is just not working, plus clerics, and Bards! We still need to--
SUIT: Excellent! Save it for 4e. That's a wrap! Get it to Print, pronto!!
DESIGNER: But--
SUIT: We're done here. Now start your notes for the next edition--
DESIGNER: But we haven't published this one!
SUIT: Start you notes...or clean out your notes--capisci?
DESIGNER: Uhh...yeah, I guess.
Hmmm..... for the first time on these boards I find myself in the very small minority...
To answer some of the complaints, both around the teaser commercial and the announcement of the upcoming edition:
I enjoyed the commercial, and I laughed at the jokes.
I'm very, very interested in 4e, and I can't wait until May.
I already use my MacBook at the table, so as long as the DI supports Mac, I'll be there.
I used a Proxima at the meeting room at the hospital for the last four years, projected the map on the table, and used a digital white board to track progress and display HOs, so the DM's Eye View display and HOs support got me jumping.
I think every edition of the game has released the books a month or more apart; I know 1E did and 3E did, I don't remember RE 2E...ha, ha, hee, hee... ;)
Most of my support of the game books so far has been the fluff books; of which info is unlikely to change too much due to mechanical changes in the game. Mechanics are expected to change, so who cares?
As far as online Dragon and Dungeon, it looks to be promising, and the first issue includes an adventure by Logue, and a return to Tsojcanth; and another Demonomicon installment by James Jacobs, so while I still and will always miss my HC mags, the really important stuff is still there. Unless the subscription is just totally outrageous, or there is a caveat of 'can't read what I've paid for in the past because my sub ran out', I'll subscribe to both and probably the full online experience, as well.
I can't be the only guy out there...
Pretyy much agree 100%.
Did you hear, (Mike Mearls blog) they are mostly ditching Vancian spellcasting as well.
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I agree. It's a step in a positive direction, not just the mixing of tabletop with digital media. I also hope I read the Wizards site correctly in regards to race. It sounds like they are going to incorporate the racial classes concept into the leveling up. So you would not only gain the abilities for your class but also any new abilities for your race.
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Did you hear, (Mike Mearls blog) they are mostly ditching Vancian spellcasting as well.
Hmm...kind of a traditional D&D approach, but that might go quickly towards making wizards and their ilk considerably more fun after the first five minutes of play. "Sorry, guys! that's all I memorized for today and I need at least half a day to memorize some more, plus four hours sleep; have fun storming the castle...sorry :/"
You guys realize that it makes all the 3rd-3.5 edition books we have shelves full of obsolete.
And these things aren't as light (or cheap) as the 2nd edition books either. That's a lot of dead weight I'll have then.
Of all the things, it this that rubs the worst.
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You guys realize that it makes all the 3rd-3.5 edition books we have shelves full of obsolete.
And these things aren't as light (or cheap) as the 2nd edition books either. That's a lot of dead weight I'll have then.
Of all the things, it this that rubs the worst.
I still don't think the new mechanics will completely invalidate the bulk of my fluff books. Whether wizrads have to memorize spells, bards are eliminated, or fighters can grapple with a single die roll, Waterdeep is still Waterdeep and Xen'drik is still a cool place to visit.
Seeing as I am about to move across the country and leave my awesome group behind, 4E looks pretty good. We will be able to play over the internet. Did they say how much the monthly subscriber fee would be? If it is under $20 per month I'll do it.
The new rules are interesting but lets see how they play out.
First, let me apologize. Due to insomnia last night, I am now too tired to find the links to back up what I am going to say. So... Please take everything I am about to post with a grain of salt, even though I am quite sure the information is correct.
The monthly fee for the D&D Insider is supposed to be $9.95 (US) per month. Of course, they have several months to change their minds.
I am not sure that "mostly ditching Vancian spellcasting" is quite accurate. But there are plans to improve spellcasters abilities besides spells. The reserve feats from Complete Mage are an example of this. But, we don't have a clue what the actual form might be.
And what I got from the Race adjustments isn't quite "you will get new racial abilities over the course of your levels," but more like "you will have the choice to get racial abilities (quite possibly instead of class abilities) over the course of your levels."
Semantics, I know. But this early after the announcement, I'd rather not have that much misinformation being spread around.
What they said as far as Vancian spellcasting goes is that its less dominant than it was, but still exists. Your more powerful abilities and spells will all "expire" and you have to rest to recharge them, but spell casters will always have some kind of magical ability to use, if minor, in combat.
It more or less sounded like reserve feats are the new familiar, or in other words, every spellcaster is going to have a kind of reserve ability. The example they gave was that wizards will always have something on the line of a magic missle to use in combat and clerics will always have something along the lines of cure light wounds to use.
Yeah, sorry about my wording . . I was on my way to work and just read the blog. I think you guys have put it best -- they are tweaking the system and its much less reliant upon a normal Vancian casting system (which Mearls said he was surprised to find out how happy people were that the Vancian system was being 'usurped')
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You guys realize that it makes all the 3rd-3.5 edition books we have shelves full of obsolete. And these things aren't as light (or cheap) as the 2nd edition books either. That's a lot of dead weight I'll have then. Of all the things, it this that rubs the worst.
You know there will always be a second-hand market for 3.0/3.5. Even 1st edition still sells at car boots and stuff so you can recoup some of your losses if you want too.
4E however may not have a second edition market. Why? because of the codes.
I would imagine the "nominal" cost wizards have put ontop of activating the codes of a book to gain access to extra content will be limited to one per person. If this extra content involves access to tools and the like you can pretty much tear up your 4E books once your done with them bacuse no-one is going to want to buy them if they can't use the codes.
This may not seem like a big issue but I personally consider some of my older versions (I have AD&D, 2nd edition, and even the blue boxed set D&D) as investments that I can either hand down to my kids to play or sell on so that others can re-live classic D&D.
It would also affect campaign specific books. say you bought 3.5 edition Eberron but no one liked it, you could sell the book on ebay and recoup some of your cash. If you did this in 4E you may as well cast the book into your waste disposal.
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I gave magic back to the spellcasters a while ago in my last 3.5 campaign. I simply doubled the number of 1st level spells all classes got and made 0 level spells limited to the characters spellcasting ability score.
So a 2nd level wizard with 17 intelligence had 5 1st level spells [(2 x 2)+1] and 17 0 level spells.
It worked pretty well; wizards could now rely on ray of frost instead of pulling out that weighty crossbow or trying to hit thin air with their quarterstaff.
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The overall feeling from my groups is 'it isn't time' yet for a new edition (for 2e and 3e we were ready), plus an overall fear that this represents a new WotC/Hasbro business model that necessitates a new edition every 4 to 5 years.
I've said this before from looking at other successful systems and companies: The general business model of the RPG industry indicates an edition change every two to six years. The five-year cycle is actually a bit on the long side.
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I've said this before from looking at other successful systems and companies: The general business model of the RPG industry indicates an edition change every two to six years. The five-year cycle is actually a bit on the long side.
That's good context.
I've only played D&D. Started in 1e and I'm still here today. However, I'm pretty sure I would not be here today if ol' TSR had adopted such an agressive revision schedule (even if perhaps there was too much time between 2e and 3e).
The good news is that, with none of my fellow gamers keen to make the 4e jump (unless it turns out to be a vastly superior product), we can continue with 3.5e. If 4e doesn't hit it out of the park, it's my hope that one of the a-list 3rd party companies (Paizo, Goodman, Green Ronin, Necromancer) can continue to support 3.5e. In fact, a bit of real competition could be healthy for WotC. It might even remind them to stay focused on the customer.
I'm excited about 4E, and my group as a whole is open to the idea of giving it a go, but that is probably because we gave up on 3/3.5 several years ago. So when 4E arrives we will get a PHB or two and see what its all about. As long as the print products are solid and useable without anything from online, no problem. If I have to download things and subscribe to their website to get full value from my books, then my foray into 4E will be even shorter than my one into 3E.
For me D&D is and always will be a face to face game. If the new version doesn't offer a better face to face game than my current system (C&C), then I have no use for it.
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Again, pure speculation, but it's fun.
Codes for repurchased books (I sell you my old one, or you buy it at a garage sale or on ebay used) could be DRMed like iTunes, where you allow and disallow a set number of machines to access your data, and WotC could simply sale new codes at the DDI site--I buy a used 4e DMG on ebay, log on to the website, and purchase a code for that book.
First--ever since 2nd edition was announced, there has been *loud* resistance from nay-sayers every time the next revision comes along. Every iteration of the game has vocal supporters. Yet I have to say that every edition has improved things (Alignment languages made no sense. Multiclassing only for demi-humans and dual classing only for humans aggravated me. I never liked level limits for demi-humans. Thieves were hampered by fixed percentages for successful use of skills tied to level, and they were also hurt by terrible THAC0 progression so they couldn't land a backstab at higher levels. Stat blocks are so complicated that high level play is really hard to prepare. Unlimited advancement above 20th level is cool, but Epic levels feel tacked on instead of being a natural part of character progression). The list of things I have seen improved (or want to see improved) stretches all the way back to the the day when AD&D 1st edition came out.
Second--I'm not convinced that the books of today are that much more expensive than previous HB editions--not when you adjust for inflation. I have always struggled to find the $$ to make such purchases, regardless of the decade.
Third, I am astonished that people are willing to take sides over a concept whose true scope is months from being fully realized, and is still being developed.
Fourth, today's younger gamers are different from old fogies like me. Gone are the days when most new players would be willing to level as slowly as occurred in the D&D Boxed Sets. Versions 3.0 and 3.5 level characters much more quickly, and even with this faster pace there are still gamers complaining about level advancements that don't bring enough bells and whistles. That's a reality that game designers must deal with.
Personally, I think the game needs streamlining--stat blocks are too complex, there are way too many feats to keep track of, and I have no need for 'swift' and 'immediate' actions cluttering up already complex action rounds.
The proof, as they say, is in the pudding. Personally, I prefer a smooth, rich vanilla.
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...Second--I'm not convinced that the books of today are that much more expensive than previous HB editions--not when you adjust for inflation. I have always struggled to find the $$ to make such purchases, regardless of the decade...
The proof, as they say, is in the pudding. Personally, I prefer a smooth, rich vanilla.
Actually, it's "The proof of the pudding is in the eating."
And I agree that with inflation the books have reasonably increased in price, especially when you hold the 3.5 PHB against the 1E PHB... production quality alone is awesome.
Oh, and I think you're right regarding the other stuff, too. ;-)
I'm excited too, and optimistic.
...if it does "suck", well I have enough 3.x books and published adventures (mostly in my hard copies of Dungeon) to have games for many many years to come.
I think it is going to be good though. Yes it will be different, but 3.0 was a huge difference from 2nd edition, and IMHO much better than its predecessors.
I just hope WoTC doesnt leave Paizo totally in the lurch. Paizo did a lot of good things for D&D (and in turn WoTC).
I am NOT at all excited about running FR or Eberron (the two supposedly WoTC supported campaign worlds), so I will be looking to Paizo or some other publisher to supply a 4e campaign world for me (assuming we convert).
I'm getting excited. I was more excited when I heard about 3rd edition. There was a real need for a change back then.
Although I do not think 3rd edition is a played out system, there could be some improvements.