Occam, I am not going to dissect your post.
But I will say a few things.
1) If you think the change from 2nd to 3rd was the sharpest in history, wait till 3rd to 4th.
And,
2) If you aren't reading everything WoTC has released on 4th Edition, and noticing just how different it is from 3rd, so be it. But sarcastically semi-accusing me of making things up isn't going to help your case at all.
And for the point of 4th Edition will work just fine with books alone...
I never claimed it wouldn't.
Anything you thought I posted in that regard is your own speculation.
True, I questioned what good is 4th Edition without the bells and whistles...
But that wasn't as a consumer. I wasn't asking what 4th Edition would be to me without the bells and whistles.
I was asking in a sort of "analyze the market" kind of way.
Look, you are all excited about 4th Edition. Good for you. I hope it delivers to you.
But what happens if any one of the four "pillars" of 4th Edition falls?
What if the community side doesn't generate enough revenue? Or, more scarily, the digital subscription side?
What then?
WoTC / Hasbro have invested a lot of time and capital in the entire 4th Edition plan.
If their audience isn't going to generate returns on the whole spectrum... What then?
Will 4th Edition fall, if any one of its pillars fall?
That remains to be seen.
Sorry. I am not going to invest in an inferior product simply to support a mis-guided cause. Table top gaming can not compete with video games. The more it tries, the more it will loose. RPGs should focus on what sets them apart instead of trying to catch up to an industry that has a huge head start.
For a court fool, you have much wisdom. And as many flaws as people are eager to pin on AD&D, at least it is closer to true tabletop gaming than anything that's come since, and that's one reason why I still support and play it. From the videos I watched today of 4e, it looks like it's trying to be D&D, Dundjinni, and an MMOG all at once.
Can this go back to talking about campaigns and questions about spells and feats and suppliments and such?
...Just thought I'd ask, I have a question about the flame blade spell but I'm afraid it will be whisked away
Never.
It's going to be nothing but "4th Edition is the sux0r vs. 4th Edition will RAWK!!!1!1!!" until May of 2008.
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To hell with it. I just had an epiphany. The epiphany I had made this vulgar situation tenable to me. Even entertaining. I have something to look forward to; either way I win.
I'll keep my epiphany to myself; I've been labeled "Cassandra" or "doomsayer" or "pessimist" too many times in life by too many people to whom I've inevitably proven the veracity of my foresight.
Only in the most dire of circumstances do I feel moved to speak.
So,...Sebastian, I'll be taking that pie now; if figurative then it is as much as consumed and swallowed. If literal please see to it that none of the ingredients contain salmonella or hepatitis.
I'll sign on as a virtual Pollyanna for all of this 4e. hullaballoo. I'll join Sebastian in his little celebratory jig. Cheerio, jolly chums! Cheerio.Ah! Heathy has been possessed. Get an axe!
I'm glad to hear you giving it a try. If it sucks, I'll be there with you, cursing those bastards at WotC all the way. And if it rocks, we can play some virtual D&D together.
But you should record your ephiphany so that you can prove you were right later.
Proving I am right is eternally immaterial. There's usually so many wounded lieing around that it just doesn't matter. It's my curse.
well, we need to know more before we can really continue to comment; it has possibilities, but we just dont know enough.
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well, we need to know more before we can really continue to comment; it has possibilities, but we just dont know enough.
Oh I bet that there are plenty of people out there who still will comment. :-)
Overall, I have been kind of 'meh' about the whole announcement. I have been trying to figure out why. Here is what I have come up with. I really looked forward to 3.0. The reason was that I really felt like the 2nd edition was broke -- and broke bad. Not having played it for 8 years, I still remember a lot of the problems I had with 2nd edition -- percentile "skills", saving throws, progression of classes, multiclassing, no monster advancement, the fact that a 14 Str was little better than an 8 Str, and so on. These were real problems with the game mechanics that I really felt didn't make sense and were frustrating to the point that pretty much everyone I knew had their own house rules to overcome them. For me, 3rd edition was a very welcome change and 3.5 fixed a lot of problems that came out with 3.0.
2nd edition (to me) was broke. It needed fixing. To me, 3.5 is not "broke". Sure there might be some minor elements that people don't like ("I don't like warlocks", "I don't like the Leap Attack feat", "I think XXXXXXX spell is too powerful", etc.), but I really like the mechanics of how 3.5 works -- a lot.
"If it ain't broke, don't fix it." -- Right? Not necessarily. But because I don't think that it is broke, I'm just not looking as forward to it as I was 3rd edition. Will I support 4th edition? Yes (at least for a while). Why? Because I want to support my favorite hobby. Even if I don't like 4th edition, I will still be able to use ideas from the 4e materials to use in my 3rd edition games.
This is a move that WotC pretty well needed to make. I will continue to support good D&D products whether they come from WotC or Paizo or wherever. Updating the game doesn't really change that for me. On the other hand, updating the game doesn't really get me all excited about it either. So I'm kind of 'meh'.
In either case, it's going to be a year before the product comes out. Valegrim's right -- even with all the advance warning they gave us about 3.0, we still really didn't know what was going on until the books actually hit the shelves. I expect it will be fairly similar.
I posted this over here, but it's relevant in this thread, also.
I understand that WotC is trying to expand the D&D market to draw in the EQ/WoW crowd, but I'm a bit concerned that they will go too far down the hack-and-slash/miniatures orientation route where "power-ups" are the main focus of "character development." The last run of 3.5 supplements doesn't make me confident, though. I'm still taking a "wait and see" attitude.
I don't buy the rallying cry scenario. I'm gonna watch/read/discuss everything i can in the next 8 months before I make a final decision.Prove to me why you should get my money ..not give me your money then We'll prove why it was worth it.
However I think Moff does hit on something with 3.5 still feels like it works vs 2.0 which got lost.
My major concern isn't will 4e be fun. I'm sure it will be.
Its the DI that greatly concerns me..I'm a reader and online player only. So everything about it is where I'm interested.
I currently love my xbox360 but I hate paying for online play and have come to the realization that in general (there are exceptions) micro transactions are horrible for the end user.Digital Distribution becomes a way to make more profit not a way to increase value to our customers far to easily.
I've also been an avid MMORPG ( Massively Multi-player Online Role-playing Game) gamer over the years. AS well Im one of those guys that have used Kloogewerks/OpenRpg ect for years now to play.I feel very well educated in this digital world of entertainment and gaming to spot some very alarming things in the whole DI initiative.
1.Going after the MMORPG market is a fools errand.
MMORPG really aren't RPG's except in the character advancement sense. They're huge chatroom-action games..they really are.CRPG gamers that like stuff like bauldersgate ect are the guys that will get into Dnd Online.I think that Ryan D. said this and I agree 100%
2.kids don't pay for MMORPG's their parents do or they buy prepaid cards.
who are they targeting with there subscription services?
3.Players don't need dm tools to play dnd and shouldn't have to pay for them to play online. There has to be teirs to the subscription system.
I need to see a Play for free option with limited access to the DI site..the table and character vault specifically. Weather thats a limited to a few playsessions a month, limited characters ect.YOu can't expect to draw in a large amount of non PnPRPG players to this system without giving them a good taste to get them into it so they'll want to pay for more access.
4.Rent vs buy. I won't subscribe to a service that doesn't allow me to use the products offline.To me thats a dealbreaker I know the 9million people paying 15bucks a month for wow is a real pretty carrot to chase but dnd isn't a mmorpg.
Whats included in the service how much are these enhancements to physical books going to cost(micro transactions say hi)Will virtual Mini's cost money ect ect .
There is soooo much potential for abuse without definitive answers to all these things.
If the bean counters end up dictating how it will be I'm pretty sure its going to be bad.If the developers that are techno savey gamers have more reign It could be really cool..
the next year will be very interesting thats for sure.
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I think everybody gets you, Occam. You are going to rail and pick apart anyone who posts something against 4E. Great, wonderful. We all have an opinion that needs your wisdom to analyze it and immediately feed us our faults in having an opinion or feeling that differs from your own.
I'm sure I am wrong in this statement and that you will show me the err in my ways.
I'm sorry to meet your expectations, Fakey, but you have, in fact, misinterpreted my responses. If someone posts their opinion that 4e is the crappiest thing since white bread based on actual facts about it, more power to them. My problem, and the point that started this thread, is that people are already complaining about "different" and incompatible 4e will be, or how it'll be unplayable without minis and online access, or how it'll play "like a video game", and we haven't even seen a real preview of the game yet. Why get all up in arms over something before you even know what you're facing?
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Look, you are all excited about 4th Edition. Good for you. I hope it delivers to you.
Let me be clear: I don't know what to think about 4e yet. I haven't seen it. I'm prepared to dive in if 4e makes for cooler characters, quicker and more dynamic combat, and greatly reduced prep time as DM; I'm prepared to stick with 3.5e if it doesn't. I just think that adopting at least a neutral stance about the change, possibly providing specific criticisms as information is released in the hope that you can influence development in a way you'd like, is a more constructive response than railing against supposed flaws in a product we haven't seen yet.
If they bring back Spelljammer, I will willingly be assimilated.
Dear God, Aberzombie I'm so there...Say it with me..."We are the Scro! You will be assimilated!"
But seriously...Lots of anger. Confusion, hatred ,sarcasm, I see. Most of it is misplaced at each other when for the most part noone on this board came up with 4th edition. So yes, everyone needs to chill and stop fighting EACH OTHER when they're really mad at Wizards, their PR department, the circumstances of 4th ed, or some combination thereof. I doubt I'll play 4.0 for very long- if at all- although I may take a few ideas from it to see if they will incorporate into 3.5. A friend of mine claimed many of the ideas in it come out of Unearthed Arcana and Tome of Battle(if that's the name of it), so they aren't entirely alien. I'm just not wowed by what I've heard so far. Those who don't want to drink the punch don't have to. To those who do, bottom's up. I'll be by the 3.5 water cooler unless your trip is so utterly fantastic(read: Spelljammer) that I have to take a sip.
I'll try it, I'll try just about anything once.
I don't like the online model... sure it beats not playing... but I do like getting together with people face to face.
If nothing else, I'm sure there'll be some OGL stuff I can use if I don't feel like buying the books, but I'm sure before long I'll switch to 4th. I do agree with a few of the race and class comments that are up right now and am interested to see what it will look like.
We don't know a lot though... hopefully in fixing what they're trying to fix they don't break a whole ton of other things.
Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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One interesting note on the "compatibility front", WotC has said that the upcoming 3e books will be designed to be edition neutral. Take from that what you will, but it does seem to indicate that the degree of compatibility is high.
Alternately, feel free to assert that it will be just like WoW, completely missing the fact that it will remain a tabletop rpg with tabletop elements playable from real books made of real paper. Maybe you're running some sort of strange version of WoW with which I am unfamiliar that runs on a kitchen table. Then again, perhaps you are confusing superficial similarities (e.g., the ability to customize a character online for play) with substantive game elements (last I checked, you can play D&D without a picture of your character. Who knows, maybe 4e will change this, and hoardes of compliance police will come storming into your house to see if you are using WotC approved character portraits.)
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Alternately, feel free to assert that it will be just like WoW, completely missing the fact that it will remain a tabletop rpg with tabletop elements playable from real books made of real paper. Maybe you're running some sort of strange version of WoW with which I am unfamiliar that runs on a kitchen table. Then again, perhaps you are confusing superficial similarities (e.g., the ability to customize a character online for play) with substantive game elements (last I checked, you can play D&D without a picture of your character. Who knows, maybe 4e will change this, and hoardes of compliance police will come storming into your house to see if you are using WotC approved character portraits.)
I think that it is funny how many people are saying that it is going to be just like WoW. What? They already have that -- DDO. Why do it again and get rid of something else. That is -- well, a silly thing to say. WotC hasn't said this and there is no reason for them to do that. In fact it is rather contradictory to other things that I have heard them say. There will be a lot of online support and content (in theory). It will not be their version of WoW.
As far as character portraits -- I better start practicing before the compliance police get to my place. My stick figures don't do my characters justice.
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I have to admit that I wasn't thrilled about the announcement of the release of 4th edition. I still have too many 3.5 edition campaigns that I want to run!
That being said, every edition of the game has been better then the previous version (in my opinion). If they continue the trend, then 4th will be the best yet.
I do play for fun. What is it about 4ed that implys it will be inherently not fun? The only argument I have heard against 4ed thus far is of the "I spent thousands of dollars on 3ed, and by God I won't switch to 4ed even if it is fun" variety.<snip>
The problem is, where will the line finally be drawn? Are we just going to hear this again come 5E? Seriously. If I dive into 4E for the "Great Cause" as Sebastian has elegantly put it, how will that apply when 3 to 4 years into 4E, WotC is just going to start working on 5E.
How does it apply then?
If 4E is going to be so awesome, then I'd like to see it stick around for more than 5 years...more than 10 years...maybe even more than 15 years. If I'm going to end up seeing 5E after five years of 4E, what's the point?
I want the hobby to corrode. Because then Hasbro might actually sell off D&D. And then someone who cares about the fundamentals of the game will finally take over.
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One interesting note on the "compatibility front", WotC has said that the upcoming 3e books will be designed to be edition neutral. Take from that what you will, but it does seem to indicate that the degree of compatibility is high.
Alternately, feel free to assert that it will be just like WoW, completely missing the fact that it will remain a tabletop rpg with tabletop elements playable from real books made of real paper. Maybe you're running some sort of strange version of WoW with which I am unfamiliar that runs on a kitchen table. Then again, perhaps you are confusing superficial similarities (e.g., the ability to customize a character online for play) with substantive game elements (last I checked, you can play D&D without a picture of your character. Who knows, maybe 4e will change this, and hoardes of compliance police will come storming into your house to see if you are using WotC approved character portraits.)
*lol*
As hard as it is to bear your sarcasm, Sebastian: You are right.And as hard as it is to bear some people's ignorance: First read all of the GenCon news, then place your rants here!
For you:
1. Digital gaming is optional and not mandatory.
2. The upcoming products contain both 3.5 and 4.0 rule information.
4.0 will be a d20 product.
So make up the rest about compatibility of the editions...
3. Who of you loves the current rules for grappling? The easiness of high level play? The attractiveness of a 1st level character?
Make up the rest about the potential to improve upon...
4. And how many of your grew up with TSR? *evil grin*
Your sentiments about WotC say everything...
They are a profit oriented company.
This means: They have to gain as many customers as possible.
This means: If possible, they are to keep the current customers and make them buy the pretty new books *and* to gain new customers which make up for those of us who drop out of hobby for whichever reasons.
You will never manage to achieve both things 100%ly. And if you only rely on existing customers, you bet on the wrong horse (economically speaking). Even if this horse is us.
Oh, and finally:
5. Is it a question of rules edition, which kind of players play at your table? Does 4th edition dictate you to accept MMORPG players at your table? Or is there just an underlying fear that the relative reclusiveness of our hobby may come to an end?
For me more D&D players would mean: a higher number of potential players for my D&D group to choose from, a bigger D&D market, therefore maybe lower prices, and surely more D&D/ OGL products to choose from.
What does all the rambling on these boards say about the quality of 4e?
Nothing, we will see. I'll give it a chance. I can still stay with the old edition - if 4e isn't to my liking and if I find players who are content with 3.5.
Greetings,
Günther
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(...) I want the hobby to corrode. Because then Hasbro might actually sell off D&D. And then someone who cares about the fundamentals of the game will finally take over.
And if it corrodes: Which company is to take it over?
How many products is this company to produce on an ever shrinking market?Where are the new players to come from?
If you want your old school D&D there are different offerings like C&C.
And if your group thinks like you, nobody forces you to change to 4e.
There are already enough products out there to play for ages using 3.5e. A new edition will only mean that these products will eventually grow cheaper.
So cheer up! ;-)
Greetings,
Günther
P.S.
I also have a 50+ 3.5e book collection and wouldn't like to see it turn invalid. But hopefully compatibility issues won't be as bad as during the transition from 2e to 3e. (see previous postings about probable compatibility)
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The problem is, where will the line finally be drawn? Are we just going to hear this again come 5E? Seriously. If I dive into 4E for the "Great Cause" as Sebastian has elegantly put it, how will that apply when 3 to 4 years into 4E, WotC is just going to start working on 5E.
How does it apply then?
If 4E is going to be so awesome, then I'd like to see it stick around for more than 5 years...more than 10 years...maybe even more than 15 years. If I'm going to end up seeing 5E after five years of 4E, what's the point?
I want the hobby to corrode. Because then Hasbro might actually sell off D&D. And then someone who cares about the fundamentals of the game will finally take over.
What's the longest you have ever owned a car? And the truth is that you have probably put more money into that one car just to replace it with another one 4-6 years down the road. I have had my car for 10 years but it is time for an upgrade.
Think about what you are saying -- "where will the line finally be drawn?"
Finally? Honestly, I don't know that I want the line to be finally drawn. It certainly wasn't "finally" drawn with 3.5. The rules from Complete Scoundrel (especially) are a fairly good deviation from 3.5. If they were "finally" done, they wouldn't have put out (what I feel was) such a good book.
Finally?
I would like Microsoft to "finally" put out a userfriendly product that is very easy to use, infinitely compatible and expandible and more secure than Fort Knox.
I don't think that WotC needs to be (nor should be) "final" in just about anything. It won't "finally be drawn". They want you (and/or others) to continue to buy product. How or why is this strange?
And to be perfectly honest, what difference does it make if they do? If you feel that you have bought enough then what difference does it make if they create an updated edition? If you don't think that the current plethora of useful and useless information for 3.X is enough -- well, you really need to get out more.
I want the hobby to corrode. Because then Hasbro might actually sell off D&D. And then someone who cares about the fundamentals of the game will finally take over.
The problem, as some of the worthies here at Paizo have pointed out, is that "As goes D&D, so goes the RPG hobby." Eventually, if D&D implodes, there will be no new players that aren't recruited by an existing gaming group to spread the word, and every current gamer that dies, leaves the hobby, what have you, will be an irrevocable attrition.
You have to admit that the longer you go from having new material to keep you interested, the less you have the energy to care about something. I know I haven't played Star Frontiers or Top Secret for a while, and I loved playing those in the day.
I'm not going to tell anyone to buy something they don't like, but don't assume that D&D is this eternal entity that will survive beyond its current stewards. I doubt many people would clamor to pick up the license if it falls flat on its face, and if they did, its just as likely they would use the name to sell video games, movies, and other items rather than trying to revive the property as a table top game.
I'm just saying that if D&D falls apart, I can see a lot of people, instead of clamoring for a new version of D&D or fantasy roleplaying, just finally giving up and playing World of Warcraft from then on.
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I'm just saying that if D&D falls apart, I can see a lot of people, instead of clamoring for a new version of D&D or fantasy roleplaying, just finally giving up and playing World of Warcraft from then on.
Seconded.
There are too many examples of games which aren't played anymore due to lack of continuing support by a company.Greetings,
Günther
One interesting note on the "compatibility front", WotC has said that the upcoming 3e books will be designed to be edition neutral. Take from that what you will, but it does seem to indicate that the degree of compatibility is high.
Alternately, feel free to assert that it will be just like WoW, completely missing the fact that it will remain a tabletop rpg with tabletop elements playable from real books made of real paper. Maybe you're running some sort of strange version of WoW with which I am unfamiliar that runs on a kitchen table. Then again, perhaps you are confusing superficial similarities (e.g., the ability to customize a character online for play) with substantive game elements (last I checked, you can play D&D without a picture of your character. Who knows, maybe 4e will change this, and hoardes of compliance police will come storming into your house to see if you are using WotC approved character portraits.)
Isn't there a p&p version of WOW running around somewhere? Or maybe it's everquest. I always get those two confused.
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Isn't there a p&p version of WOW running around somewhere? Or maybe it's everquest. I always get those two confused.
There is a P&P version of WoW.
And do you know what it is based on? ;-)Have a look here:
http://secure1.white-wolf.com/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=656
To be fair: WoW-RPG's predecessor was simply called "Warcraft". And Warcraft wasn't a MMORPG, but a strategy game. So it was first and all a rpg set in a computer game fantasy setting. WoW arrived later...
Greetings,
Günther
What's the longest you have ever owned a car? And the truth is that you have probably put more money into that one car just to replace it with another one 4-6 years down the road. I have had my car for 10 years but it is time for an upgrade.
10 years vs...how long has 3.5 been out?
Not trying to be nasty(see above post), just making a point. 3.5 has a lot more life left in it, and while I'm happy to see that there will be support for 3.5 after 4.0 is released, it isn't time for a new car just yet. Then again, leases are all the rage nowadays, maybe that's the model they're following for some of their stuff?
Isn't there a p&p version of WOW running around somewhere? Or maybe it's everquest. I always get those two confused.There is a P&P version of WoW.
And do you know what it is based on? ;-)Have a look here:
http://secure1.white-wolf.com/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=656To be fair: WoW-RPG's predecessor was simply called "Warcraft". And Warcraft wasn't a MMORPG, but a strategy game. So it was first and all a rpg set in a computer game fantasy setting. WoW arrived later...
Greetings,
Günther
Oh come on now. We all played Warcraft and Starcraft with others via various internet and LAN connections. This does not invalidate the statement of the "above ranters".
I'll bite:
For you:
1. Digital gaming is optional and not mandatory.
True. For the individual it isn't mandatory. But for the company is it? I am not saying no one will by into the digital gaming... But if they don't, what would happen to the product line? (I actually work in "big business" environments, and am well aware that if there isn't enough support for the Digital side, Hasbro might 'encourage' WoTC to scrap the whole line. No, I am not claiming it it likely, but it certainly is possible.)
3. Who of you loves the current rules for grappling? The easiness of high level play? The attractiveness of a 1st level character?
I'll say me. Love might be strong, but as I pointed out elsewhere there isn't anything wrong with the grapple rules. The problem lies in the fact that few people consider it cool, or useful enough, to bother to learn the rules. Grappling is no worse than trip, or charge. Everythig else is a fault of the system. As long as it is D&D, high level play and first level characters will always be a problem.
4. And how many of your grew up with TSR? *evil grin*
Your sentiments about WotC say everything...
I did. And have come to loathe it ever since I found out there were other systems. In fact, my group generally refers to D&D as the "gateway" RPG. It is what you use to let people learn the hobby, and then move on to something better once they get the hang of it.
5. Is it a question of rules edition, which kind of players play at your table?
As a general rule, yes. Sure, the players have further control over it. But the rules very much controls the level / quality of the players at the table.
I guess I should chime to this, both with my opinions on 4e, and with my experiences as the single most prolific DM of my alma mater (Southern Oregon University)in the time I attended (and the years since). Keep in mind that everything I say I do so from my own perspective; these statements are simple listings of my experiences, not ironclad universal truths or facts. So forgive me in advance if I get a bit rantish, it isn't meant to be that way.
In the six years I have attended college (I took a break in the middle, but kept the freinds.) I have NEVER seen MMORpgs pull anyone away from D&D. I HAVE seen D&D pull people from MMORpgs. Reasons cited is that the social experience is superior, the game system allows more flexibility in character creation, and most of all, that the adventures are NEW, rather than the same starting quest over and over.
Attention spans are shortening. But this has been happening since the dawn of thought. My only real fear is that 4e will follow in the footsteps of 3e's response: accelerating level ups. In 2nd edition, an orc was worth 15xp. Took a lot of orcs to hit 2000xp (which was the average total to hit level 2) especially when divided by 4 people. In 3rd, it takes 27 CR 1/2 orcs to level up, because 13.3 encounters of a CR equal to your level will "fill the bar" of a member of a 4 person party. Thats a lot faster. The combination of the 30 level progression and faster leveling does make me wonder if the new character sheets will burst into flame from the speed of my leveling.
Again from my experience, NO ONE gets into D&D on their own. EVER. Never seen it happen, don't expect to either. D&D is a social game, and every player I have ever met can trace it to 2 roots: they saw a group playing and asked about it, or a freind asked them to join a group. By my interpretation, that means that MMORpgs don't "steal" players from D&D, it means they pick up the people that don't see D&D being played, or who don't get invited by their freinds. To me, the responsibility of bringing fresh blood into the game has never been TSR's, or WotC's, its my responsibility, and the responsibility of every person I've already pulled in.
Regarding 4e directly, I agree with Sebastion for the most part, but I also agree with many others here, on both sides of the issue. For me, Im hopeful. And here's why:
1. The OGL is here to stay. That means even if 4e tanks, I've always got 3.5 (or my heavily houseruled 3.6).
2. 4e is still labeled as "D20 Engine". That means conversions from 3rd to 4th are going to be a lot easier than from 2nd to 3rd, and I do those all the time.
3. What they've shown in the Design and Development articles interests me. No more, no less. It's been like seeing an ad in a magizine for a new model car, where they show you a silhouette of the car. I like the outline they've given, it interests me. Would I consider purchasing the car based on that outline? Of course not. Only after I've seen the whole car, looked under the hood and chassis, and taken it for a test drive, would I consider buying it.
My only real beef has been the marketing and PR that WotC has done over the last few months, but even then, the idea that some of it may have been deliberately done to give Paizo a fair chance to launch Pathfinder makes me a little more forgiving. WotC, and Hasbro, and Paizo even, are all businesses. Everything about their existance ultimately springs from making money. The best we can hope for is that the people in charge are serious about doing their best to deliver to us an edition that gives us the best play experiences we can possibly have. An impossible goal, due to the variety of player tastes, quirks, and peeves? Maybe, but I still hope they try.
Rant done.
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Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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Again from my experience, NO ONE gets into D&D on their own. EVER. Never seen it happen, don't expect to either. D&D is a social game, and every player I have ever met can trace it to 2 roots: they saw a group playing and asked about it, or a freind asked them to join a group.
I'm sure I won't be the only one to challenge this statement, but I got into dnd on my own. Ui had heard about it generally from the media, I asked a friend about it (he had seen it played) and he told me generally what it was like. I went to the comic store, asked the guy behind the counter what I needed to play dnd, he pointed me to the red box. I read it cover to cover, roped some friends into playing, and have been hooked ever since.
I've known several others like me, so I know I'm not unique. As a kid, my gamer friends and I distinguished ourselves as self taught from those who had been taught by someone else.
Anyway, just had to chime in on that. I'm sure others will pop in to say the same thing. There was a thread not too long ago where people talked about how they started playing. Many received the red box as a gift and taught themselves that way as well.
Y'know, model railroading is still out there and still has its devotees.
When I was a kid, gaming was an even more obscure and nerds-only activity than it is now.
These days, model railroading is considerably more obscure than roleplaying games. But somehow, model railroading still has print magazines.
-The Gneech
Amen!
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What's the longest you have ever owned a car? And the truth is that you have probably put more money into that one car just to replace it with another one 4-6 years down the road. I have had my car for 10 years but it is time for an upgrade.10 years vs...how long has 3.5 been out?
Not trying to be nasty(see above post), just making a point.
Ok, but I'm not expecting the car industry to stand still until I need a new vehicle either.
My point is that this stuff is going on all the time -- why should any other industry be any different? Computers? The computer I bought last year is obsolete. I will be very lucky to get even 4 years out of it. VHS tapes? DVDs? Do you think that Blu Ray (or however you spell it) will still be the hot item in 5 years? Are my VHS tapes compatible with DVDs? Are DVDs "reverse compatible" with VHS? Anyone here remember BETA?
I just think that it is a bit lacking foresight to say that just about anything is "finally" done.
It will be done (for me) when I am dead. Until then, there will be changes. You can either change or not -- it really doesn't make a difference. The change will happen -- but no one has told you that YOU have to change. You don't have to get a new car. You don't have to get a new computer. You can still play your VHS tapes.
Maybe I should put this on the rant thread.
I don't care what the new edition is going to be like. I really don't. I could be great. It could be crap. I know nothing about it. But to get upset about changing things that don't have to affect you at all just feels to me like all these people have this victim mentality. It's like they are saying "WotC doesn't care about me" or "WotC is out to get me" and so therefore "I'm going to go in the corner and eat worms". Give me a break. "Woe is me -- I have all this material that I won't be able to use any more." Pahleease. 1) If you can't come up with a way to use the old books with the new system -- whatever it is -- ask your DM for help. If you are the DM then find a new profession. 2) If you can't come up with a way to use the new books with the old system -- well see #1. and 3) between Iron Kingdoms, Ptolus, all the books that WotC put out and everything else that is out there for 3.X, you should have plenty of material to keep you happy for the next 15 years, even if you never support another updated product -- and you can probably get a lot of the books you have been missing cheap in the next couple of years at used bookstores. I still use a lot of my AD&D and 2nd edition stuff in my games.
Sorry Freehold DM. Not really meant to be directed at you. I just expect whining from my 5 year old -- not here at Paizo.
I'm sure I won't be the only one to challenge this statement, but I got into dnd on my own. Ui had heard about it generally from the media, I asked a friend about it (he had seen it played) and he told me generally what it was like. I went to the comic store, asked the guy behind the counter what I needed to play dnd, he pointed me to the red box. I read it cover to cover, roped some friends into playing, and have been hooked ever since.
I've known several others like me, so I know I'm not unique. As a kid, my gamer friends and I distinguished ourselves as self taught from those who had been taught by someone else.
Anyway, just had to chime in on that. I'm sure others will pop in to say the same thing. There was a thread not too long ago where people talked about how they started playing. Many received the red box as a gift and taught themselves that way as well.
I'm happy to be refuted; rather, I expected to be. My experiences are framed by the community I have lived in. A community which, despite possessing a diverse and passionate RPG playing subset, lacks the overall scope of interest to fully support an RPG outlet. In the Rogue Valley of Southern Oregon, Comic book shops and Gaming shops go under almost reliably within two years of forming. The ubiquitous More Fun Comics of Ashland is the only remaining location in the valley that can be called a gaming shop. This isn't to say its the only place to purchase RPG books; Barnes & Noble has a decent selection, as does Waldenbooks. But it is the last place where I can go to browse used 2nd edition material, flip through the old 3.0 Diablo paperback rules, and such.
My community contains a lot of people who seem to enjoy D&D, but only if they stumble across it. And due to the location of D&D books on the mainstream shelves (Barnes & Noble has them buried under the graphic novels) they are hard to accidentally discover. I would love to know that the majority of players found the game entirely on their own, but my own experiences make it difficult to beleive such a proposition.
Anyhow, back to the main angle of this thread.
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One interesting note on the "compatibility front", WotC has said that the upcoming 3e books will be designed to be edition neutral. Take from that what you will, but it does seem to indicate that the degree of compatibility is high.
Actually, the edition neutral thing referred to a lack of crunch in favor of fluff. It has been explicitly stated that they believe conversions between editions will be difficult if not impossible. One of the designers (sorry, I don't have the link) blogged that they do not even plan to offer conversion rules at this time.
Whether that is a good thing or a bad thing remains to be seen.
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Again from my experience, NO ONE gets into D&D on their own. EVER. Never seen it happen, don't expect to either. D&D is a social game, and every player I have ever met can trace it to 2 roots: they saw a group playing and asked about it, or a freind asked them to join a group.
I'll echo Sebastian here: I got into gaming on my own, based on browsing the books at mall bookstores, before I knew anyone else who played. However, that was 25 years ago, and things are probably quite different today.
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It has been explicitly stated that they believe conversions between editions will be difficult if not impossible. One of the designers (sorry, I don't have the link) blogged that they do not even plan to offer conversion rules at this time.
Although one of the WotC R&D folks (I think it was Rob Heinsoo), in one of the interviews at YouTube, said that his feelings had changed while speaking to folks at GenCon, where one of the most common questions asked of him was how difficult it would be to convert characters from 3e. His current feelings were that, while a straight mechanical conversion process wasn't realistic (as was unsuccessfully tried with the 2e->3e conversion document), broader conversion guidelines would probably be a good idea. We'll see what comes of that. I imagine that people will end up working things out on their own, as they've done with converting 1e and 2e and other materials to 3e.
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In the Rogue Valley of Southern Oregon, Comic book shops and Gaming shops go under almost reliably within two years of forming. The ubiquitous More Fun Comics of Ashland is the only remaining location in the valley that can be called a gaming shop. This isn't to say its the only place to purchase RPG books; Barnes & Noble has a decent selection, as does Waldenbooks. But it is the last place where I can go to browse used 2nd edition material, flip through the old 3.0 Diablo paperback rules, and such.
I was just in Ashland a few weeks ago, and bought a couple of the environment series books at Fun Again Games (I think that was the name?). Granted, not a real deep selection, but I got pretty good deals.
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RPG Superstar 2011 Top 32
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Again from my experience, NO ONE gets into D&D on their own. EVER. Never seen it happen, don't expect to either. D&D is a social game, and every player I have ever met can trace it to 2 roots: they saw a group playing and asked about it, or a freind asked them to join a group.I'll echo Sebastian here: I got into gaming on my own, based on browsing the books at mall bookstores, before I knew anyone else who played. However, that was 25 years ago, and things are probably quite different today.
I was drawn into gaming around seven to eight years ago, and the circumstances about it are... interesting. Needless to say, the first year or two, I didn't even TOUCH the core books.
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Although one of the WotC R&D folks (I think it was Rob Heinsoo), in one of the interviews at YouTube, said that his feelings had changed while speaking to folks at GenCon, where one of the most common questions asked of him was how difficult it would be to convert characters from 3e. His current feelings were that, while a straight mechanical conversion process wasn't realistic (as was unsuccessfully tried with the 2e->3e conversion document), broader conversion guidelines would probably be a good idea. We'll see what comes of that. I imagine that people will end up working things out on their own, as they've done with converting 1e and 2e and other materials to 3e.
Thanks. That's good to know that they're listening.
Although, I still think many of their actions over the last few months have been very heavy handed. While I know its not fair, I still feel their moderately forthcoming behavior at Gen-Con is more damage control and spin than anything else.
I'm firmly in the pessimist camp, but I will keep an eye on events and try to keep an open mind.
Wow, you spend a few days busy at work and look what happens. A new edition!
Having read many of the threads (not all) and seen the videos, I am taking the stance of giving 4E a look. My group is a small group of older gamers that gets together far too infrequently and mostly we do it to socialize. For us, the table top setting is what is most important. 3E served its purpose to get us back into gaming and after we got used to it we kinda like it. However there are rules that mix us up, higher level play becomes tedious and stat blocks tiresome. We would welcome a more streamlined ruleset that 4E may offer. We have tried various online means to facilitate play when someone is out of town and can't make a session, but resorted to simple e-mails, essentially play-by-post. I am willing to see what the online content can do for us. But online won't replace our sessions, just compliment them. I am not interested in having to fork over a monthly fee just to use it a couple times per month if at all. I wonder if they will have a ppv or limited number of uses scheme?
Regarding MMORPG, I have played DiabloII online since it came out even though I am a bred-to-the-bone old-school D&Der. At times on bnet I have felt like a mouse tapping on the laboratory button to release more cocaine. I tried to get people in my gaming group to play, even buying them the discs. We even tried NeverwinterNights, but they never got into it. The style of those games is that is all about the loot and winning/beating the game. But really, that's not what D&D is about. It's about the stories and characters and deeds. And that's the thing that I think is at risk in the switch to virtual environment.(Cue music from LoTR when Sam gives his speech at Osgiliath)...
What's the longest you have ever owned a car? And the truth is that you have probably put more money into that one car just to replace it with another one 4-6 years down the road. I have had my car for 10 years but it is time for an upgrade.
Think about what you are saying -- "where will the line finally be drawn?"
Yes, where will the line be drawn. What's the point of getting into D&D nowadays if the game you've come to love and enjoy completely abandons you every few years to start over a whole new edition...when no new edition was necessary other than for profit!?
And you cannot compare D&D to a car. They have absolutely nothing in common. If you want to compare D&D to something, compare it to marriage. You enjoy the game for what it is, you play it hardcore, you invest a lot of your time and money into it, you grow to love it more. Something new comes along to make it better every so often, you devote yourself to it and stay loyal.
But if there's something wrong in the marriage, you don't ditch it and find someone else that MIGHT be better, and even so, you should make it work with your current status. If the marriage is losing flavor and isn't spicy anymore, then you should find ways to spicen it up. Again, not ditch it entirely for something else. There was nothing wrong with 3.5E and WotC just got up and ditched it instead of using the advantage of this DI to spicen up 3.5E all over again. They're going with this radical, MMORPG, video gamey feel to it now, slaughtering sacred cows with each step.
The game we've come to enjoy is now dying. And, again, I hope another company can somehow take the brand so they can bring it back to the way it should've STAYED.
We've lost our game to the evils of capitalism and mega-corporations...I'll mourn D&D till the day I die.
And to be perfectly honest, what difference does it make if they do? If you feel that you have bought enough then what difference does it make if they create an updated edition? If you don't think that the current plethora of useful and useless information for 3.X is enough -- well, you really need to get out...
Yeah, finish it off with an insult. Very classy.
No, I don't believe I have enough. I still want my Fiendish Codex 3: Yugoloths, I still want my Fey Book, I still want my Giantnomicon, I want more Realms products, I want my Complete Warrior 2, etc. Now me and my gaming group have NOTHING to look forward to. Half of our fun playing D&D was waiting for the new products coming out so we can add to our games. Now we have nothing, unless we can somehow pull stuff from 4E and convert it to our 3.5E games.
Prime example is buying a new Playstation. I can enjoy the better, improved games but at the same time my system is backwards compatible. I don't have to throw away my PS2 or PS1 games, I can plug them into my PS3 and enjoy it still.
That's how 4E should've been. It should be new and exciting but at the same damn time it should allow you to easily convert your 3E material
If you want to compare D&D to something, compare it to marriage. You enjoy the game for what it is, you play it hardcore, you invest a lot of your time and money into it, you grow to love it more. Something new comes along to make it better every so often, you devote yourself to it and stay loyal.
You obviously haven't seen the latest divorce rates.
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Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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First, an aside. There is an assumption that such a thing as a fully compatible 4e actually could exist. I would submit that it could not not. There are people who will complain about any level of differences and would go so far as to argue that 3.5 is not fully compatible with 3e. And anything less than 100% compatible (i.e., not really a new edition) will be found lacking by those unable to adapt.
Prime example is buying a new Playstation. I can enjoy the better, improved games but at the same time my system is backwards compatible. I don't have to throw away my PS2 or PS1 games, I can plug them into my PS3 and enjoy it still.
This analogy always gets brought up and its always used incorrectly. I will assume that the analogy is that 3e is to the PS1 and 4e is to the PS2. The various non-core supplements are the adventures. So, the argument is that you can play PS1 video games on a PS2. To which I respond, so f%&#ing what. It's not as if those PS1 games are any different on the PS2, they don't magically get better graphics or use new features that were previously unavailable. You might as well just have gotten out your old PS1 and run your old PS1 games on it because you are using the same system to run the same games. The fact that the system is emulated on the PS2 doesn't change anything.
Back to D&D, it's not as if playing 4e somehow makes you unable to play 3e. You can still get out all your 3e supplements and play them using your core 3e rules, just like you can play PS1 games on your old PS1 or the emulated PS1 that runs on the PS2.
Maybe your outrage is that once the PS2 comes out, no one wants to come over and play Madden 96 on your PS1 anymore. For some odd reason, they want to play the latest Madden game, with the best graphics and that game only runs on the PS2. Silly them. I guess then you can be angry about Sony wrecking your experience by splitting up your old Madden play group.
But hey, if that's your logic, you might want to get really mad at Nintendo/White Wolf. Those bastards have the audacity to release game systems that are completely incompatible with your PS1 and PS2 games. Not only that, they would prefer it if all your players switched over Nintendo/White Wolf. You'd better start your angry letter campaign to them asap, before they continue destroying the beautiful PS1/3e experience you so treaure.
As a final note, the games that I tend to like are the remakes of titles that take advantage of the new system's capabilities. Playing the original revamped metroid on the GBA is terrific fun; you tap into the nostalgia of the original game, but get nice new technology like save points and shoulder buttons. That's one of the great things about D&D, playing the old games recast on the new platform to take advantage of all its bells and whistles. I have very fond memories of playing a 3e conversion of Against the Giants, and it was a much different (and I would submit, better) experience than playing it with the 1e ruleset.
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No, I don't believe I have enough. I still want my Fiendish Codex 3: Yugoloths, I still want my Fey Book, I still want my Giantnomicon, I want more Realms products, I want my Complete Warrior 2, etc. Now me and my gaming group have NOTHING to look forward to. Half of our fun playing D&D was waiting for the new products coming out so we can add to our games. Now we have nothing, unless we can somehow pull stuff from 4E and convert it to our 3.5E games.
Prime example is buying a new Playstation. I can enjoy the better, improved games but at the same time my system is backwards compatible. I don't have to throw away my PS2 or PS1 games, I can plug them into my PS3 and enjoy it still.
So where will the line be drawn? "I don't have enough."
I could go on, but Sebastian has it pretty well covered.
However -- Marriage is NOT like D&D. D&D is a GAME. The vows I made were very serious. There may not be a good analogy, but it definitely is NOT like marriage -- in so many ways. I won't even start to list them.
What's the longest you have ever owned a car? And the truth is that you have probably put more money into that one car just to replace it with another one 4-6 years down the road. I have had my car for 10 years but it is time for an upgrade.10 years vs...how long has 3.5 been out?
Not trying to be nasty(see above post), just making a point.
Ok, but I'm not expecting the car industry to stand still until I need a new vehicle either.
My point is that this stuff is going on all the time -- why should any other industry be any different? Computers? The computer I bought last year is obsolete. I will be very lucky to get even 4 years out of it. VHS tapes? DVDs? Do you think that Blu Ray (or however you spell it) will still be the hot item in 5 years? Are my VHS tapes compatible with DVDs? Are DVDs "reverse compatible" with VHS? Anyone here remember BETA?
I just think that it is a bit lacking foresight to say that just about anything is "finally" done.
It will be done (for me) when I am dead. Until then, there will be changes. You can either change or not -- it really doesn't make a difference. The change will happen -- but no one has told you that YOU have to change. You don't have to get a new car. You don't have to get a new computer. You can still play your VHS tapes.
Maybe I should put this on the rant thread.
I don't care what the new edition is going to be like. I really don't. I could be great. It could be crap. I know nothing about it. But to get upset about changing things that don't have to affect you at all just feels to me like all these people have this victim mentality. It's like they are saying "WotC doesn't care about me" or "WotC is out to get me" and so therefore "I'm going to go in the corner and eat worms". Give me a break. "Woe is me -- I have all this material that I won't be able to use any more." 1) If you can't come up with a way to use the old books with the new system -- whatever it is -- ask your DM for help. If you are the DM then find a new profession. 2) If you can't come up with a way to use the new books with the old system -- well see #1. and 3) between Iron Kingdoms, Ptolus, all the books that WotC put out and everything else that is out there for 3.X, you should have plenty of material to keep you happy for the next 15 years, even if you never support another updated product -- and you can probably get a lot of the books you have been missing cheap in the next couple of years at used bookstores. I still use a lot of my AD&D and 2nd edition stuff in my games.
Sorry Freehold DM. Not really meant to be directed at you. I just expect whining from my 5 year old -- not here at Paizo.
Nor was my comment directed at you. Your rant, while passionate, makes some sense, however, this is a change that DOES affect all who play the game at least somewhat seriously, and most(although not all) aren't really whining. They are upset and have legitimate questions regarding the future of D&D and the current edition we all know and many love. Answers have been slow in coming and varied widely in terms of coherency- that would make anyone a whiny victim, imo. But I digress. Again, check my earlier statement: it makes no sense to snipe or rant at each other when none of us have anything to do with 4th edition.
And as a side note, I happily remember BETA, and my VHS/DVD combo works just fine. Perhaps one day we will be able to say the same for 3.5/4.0.
This analogy always gets brought up and its always used incorrectly. I will assume that the analogy is that 3e is to the PS1 and 4e is to the PS2. The various non-core supplements are the adventures. So, the argument is that you can play PS1 video games on a PS2. To which I respond, so f@!!ing what. It's not as if those PS1 games are any different on the PS2, they don't magically get better graphics or use new features that were previously unavailable. You might as well just have gotten out your old PS1 and run your old PS1 games on it because you are using the same system to run the same games. The fact that the system is emulated on the PS2 doesn't change anything.
Actually, some of my PS1 games run smoother on the PS2, and I think late in the PS1's life there were games that were made for it that looked a little smoother on the PS2 by switching an option for the PS2 itself.
I could be wrong, but I think that was my experience. I'll have to dig out something later to confirm.
And yes, the 3.5/4.0 debate will come up at the table and may cause some strife as per the Madden scenario, although I doubt the group would split up as a result. Still, there are many people who play earlier versions of Madden (and the Blitz series, I believe) for both nostalgic and functional purposes, as glitches and oversights in the later series made people pine for earlier ones.
Again, maybe we'll say the same for 4.0. Who knows.
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Nor was my comment directed at you. Your rant, while passionate, makes some sense, however, this is a change that DOES affect all who play the game at least somewhat seriously, and most(although not all) aren't really whining. They are upset and have legitimate questions regarding the future of D&D and the current edition we all know and many love.
Thanks.
Questions I can handle and encourage. "How is the online initiative going to work?" That is a real question that probably deserves an answer. We won't get a definite answer for some time (I would guess) as it appears that the makers don't know enough right now either. Saying things like "They lied to us", "why are they doing this", "It's not going to work and I won't support it", and so on all feel like whining to me.
I have plenty of questions myself -- mostly surrounding the online content as far as payment (if I start paying and stop, will I still have access to the material or will I need to download it -- assuming that will be possible, etc.), the programming of the online content (is it a pdf? another program? will I be able to download? print? etc.) and whether or not it will be worth a monthly subscription to me. But none of that (I feel) should make me "upset". Why are people really upset? Would it have been better if WotC had announced the 4e when they had all the specifics worked out? Say May 2008? Why are people upset that they now have advance warning that this will happen?
It seems to me that people are most upset about spending money on the books and now they feel the books will be little more than paperweights. Here is my take on the spending money issue. I have spent a lot of money over the past 8 years in D&D materials. I have spent a whole lot of time with it. And I have gotten infinitely more enjoyment out of the hundreds (thousands?) of dollars that I have spent to play games and be with friends than I have ever gotten out of seeing all the movies (and paying babysitters, and so on) that I have seen over the past 8 years -- and the end cost is probably pretty comparable. And even if I never did another thing with the books that I now own, the memories that I have playing with friends easily make it worth it. (And I look back at knowing that I watched Star Wars Episode III three times in the theatre and I still ask myself 'why?'.) People spend money on museums, concerts, movies, etc and do they really take anything home with them? Certainly nothing physical. And even if it was the best concert ever, does it really compare to spending really good quality time with friends? I have never felt like the past 4 years worth of investment in D&D was a waste of money. Even if we never play another D&D game, the friends I have made (I believe) are friends for life and we will talk about the games/times we had for many many years to come. In that time we will probably never talk about X-Men III even though most of us own it. Even WoW I don't fully get. Here is something that people pay a monthly fee for and in the end, they don't even get a monthly magazine. They don't get a disk to show their kids what it was like to advance the character -- unless you want to again pay the monthly fee. (And I wouldn't be surprised if they didn't come out with a WoW2 in the next year or two.)
Every time I think that I am done, I find more to say.