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WOW!
What an awesome capstone to this AP! The Prince of Demons himself is going to be quite the challenge if the PCs can't accomplish their goals.
Although, I must say, Nulonga id by far my favorite encounter on first read through. My wife is seriously disturbed from looking at the picture. I don't want to include spoilers, so I'll leave it at that, but I think this adventure is what High-Level play is all about.
Yes, just got it a few hours ago and I must say great stuff so far. There's one little thing I noticed, though. In Ulu-Thurg's stat block, there's an item listed in his possessions called a "badge of passage." It says to see the Appendix, but that item is not listed there. An oversight, perhaps?
Creative Director
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Yes, just got it a few hours ago and I must say great stuff so far. There's one little thing I noticed, though. In Ulu-Thurg's stat block, there's an item listed in his possessions called a "badge of passage." It says to see the Appendix, but that item is not listed there. An oversight, perhaps?
The badge of passage is a remnant of an earlier draft. Just discard it and it's all good.
(In the adventure's first draft, teleportation was barred across Gaping Maw except for those who wore a badge of passage, but the logistics of barring teleportation didn't make sense when it's such a powerful ability shared by all demons—taking it away from them nerfed them too bad, and giving every demon a badge was no better a solution. In the end, we reduced the teleport ban to what remans around Lemoriax and got rid of the badges entirely.)
I probably won't get It for another 2 weeks so please Indulge me, and tell me who Nulonga id and Ulu-Thurg are? Thanx In advance.
DAve
Bravo Bravo!!!! the only disappointment is that this is final issue of the Adventure Path and Dungeon.
(tiny spoiler)
One question, with all the contenders for the crown of Prince of Demons does Wizards have an offical "claimant" to the crown?
I know my players and they would like things as close to canon as possible.
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Creative Director
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One question, with all the contenders for the crown of Prince of Demons does Wizards have an offical "claimant" to the crown?
I know my players and they would like things as close to canon as possible.
SPOILERS hidden in this response... beware!
There is no official claimant to the crown, and I doubt there will be, frankly. The end of "Prince of Demons" has the potential to make some pretty huge changes to the way the Abyss is structured, and by picking one of the claimants as "canon" it infers an invalidation of any other possible outcome.
My personal preference is that, if there has to be a "canon" version of the outcome of Savage Tide, it's that the heroes stop the savage tide and then escape the Abyss without having to kill Demogorgon, leaving him reduced in power and catching his breath, but still the Prince of Demons.
THAT SAID: If the PCs in my own Savage Tide campaign don't engineer a different result, I'll probably have Obox-ob get the crown. He's been so patient all these years, waiting to get it back!
Adhering too closely to "canon" isn't any fun for me, in any event, since that basically consigns the PCs to the role of observer with no chance to ever become the center of attention. Nuts to that.
Considering your love affair for Obox-ob James, I'm going to really look forward to your Obox-Ob Demonomicon (if I get around to buying DRAGON and DUNGEON online).
in any event, since that basically consigns the PCs to the role of observer with no chance to ever become the center of attention. Nuts to that.
Spoilers
Not necessarily, I think having one of the PC’s being the next Prince of Demons is a little too much, but by their actions they can help determine who will have the throne and crown be it Orcus, Dagon or one of the many others be it a personal favorite of the party or the choice of the lessor of evils.
Personally, I would like to have seen someone else “officially” wear the crown, it would have added to the sweeping effect of change the players have brought about not only to the Abyss but the rest of the Multiverse, otherwise the final adventure just boils done to an epic battle with one tough boss battle at the end.
I wonder if Aragorn or Gandalf would have just been satisfied for just weaking Sauron and not his total defeat?
Anyway, once again thanks for another Herculean effort.
I probably won't get It for another 2 weeks so please Indulge me, and tell me who Nulonga id and Ulu-Thurg are? Thanx In advance.
DAve
Actually got It today...WOOHOO!!! Great AP guys, well nevermind about Nulonga and Ulu-Thurg(Well Ulu Is really cool). What about Arendagrost Maw of the Abyss? He kicks ass! When I asked James about him last month or so he said he takes more after Dad and has 3 sets of horns. I sketched a picture of him and I swear two of his heads looked like these dragon heads but the middle one had a giant neandrathal head with horns look. And he was humanoid. Who knew Malcanthet could have such a homly kid? I want to design other possible offspring of Demogorgon and Malcanthet, I am sure one of them will take after Mom In some way?
DAve|
Creative Director
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Adding a mass combat element to the adventure would make sense... but at the same point, D&D isn't really about mass combat. It's about your character. Playing an adventure for 20 levels only to have the outcome decided by a wargame in which your character's input is marginal at best due to the fact that so many other elements in that battle are bigger and more powerful would be anticlimactic. Much better, I thnk, to have the battle happen in the background and follow the PCs themselves as they do their mission.
Haven't actually gotten the issue yet so I apologize if this is covered, but can you have a good ruler of an abyssal plane? I thought the planes themselves were evil, giving birth to everything nasty we find down there.
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Creative Director
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Haven't actually gotten the issue yet so I apologize if this is covered, but can you have a good ruler of an abyssal plane? I thought the planes themselves were evil, giving birth to everything nasty we find down there.
You can't, really. You can certainly start out good or lawful, but the Abyss is tenacious. It won't take long for its evil to seep into the mind and soul and body of anyone who claims a layer of the Abyss as their own, turning them chaotic evil in the end. The only way to escape this, really, is to either abandon the lair or to somehow tear the Abyssal realm free and move it somewhere else, something that even gods can't really do without great peril (as evidenced in the creation of the Dreaming Gulf—see Dragon #357's Demonomicon of Demogorgon).
planescape had some pretty clear principles on how to steal layers..
Basically having a population that has a different view, strong actions towards that alignment etc.. and get a shift.
This was accomplished rather quickly once by a sabotaged harmonium operation ;)
If a PC ends up with the title of Prince of Demons, one option open to them is to voluntarily submit to confinement in, say, Talisid's home in Elysium, where many other beings of surpassing evil power are also imprisoned. Naturally, the party would first need to ensure this influx of evil power did not overstress the power of the Elysium prison, segueing nicely into the Diplomacy adventure from Dungeon 144. Perhaps the player of the imprisoned PC can play Ivixel for the interim. Then, of course, comes the considerable task of purifying the Prince of Demons and his or her layer, dragging it all off to a more virtuous part of the cosmos. Conveniently, no one can steal the layer or the title in the meantime, since the current Prince of Demons has never been truly defeated and is essentially inaccessible to fiendish armies.
This may have unexpected consequences; substantially weakening the Chaotic Evil access of the universe like this should be dramatic, even if a good result. Perhaps every demon lord drops its involvement in the Blood War to rush for the imprisoned prize in Elysium, thereby freeing up the devils of Baator to expand in both directions. On the other hand, perhaps without the clear enemy to resist represented by Chaotic Evil, the Lawful Neutral outsiders start sliding toward Lawful Evil as they oppose Chaos (which is now predominantly good, since the demons have been so horribly weakened) and the Neutral Good outsiders start sliding toward Chaotic Good as they oppose Evil (which is likewise now predominantly lawful). After the isolated angels of Celestia fade from relevance, the reality of alignment could once again collapse to one axis, as it was in the beginning.
Clearly, there's plenty of plot to follow now no matter how high the party gets in level.
Sigh! I thought mine would arrive by now, but it hasn't. One more day before it has to chase me to North Carolina. Bummer.
or remold the layer into a ship.. Demonwing II, here i come!
But yeah that demands mastery or the realm and quite some time..
Or better yet, Angelwing I, a fearless crusader for good on all the seas anywhere ;)
Kobold.. its just one layer ;)
If you stole 50 layers from the abyss in a short time, then maybe.. but as it is, its a 0,16% weakening of the abyss.. lol
Okie maybe a whole 0,2% ..afterall demogorgon is gone too..
That really depends on how the domino effect goes. It's not just one layer; it's also the title of Prince of Demons, which is important. Furthermore, the dramatic theft of an entire layer AND its master could excite all the other layers to act, which will have regrettable consequences for the target but leave the Abyss open to counterattacks from all over the cosmos.
The notion that PC actions are completely unimportant no matter what because they're too small to even create a ripple is something from 2E that I really did not care for. Even in the Planescape backstory, massive planar realignments have been the result of a single war, so there's no reason that couldn't happen again.
okie.. but in that case id suggest a devil incursion. Some town whatever taken over by a horde of hell.
Warriors that otherwise would be spent in the bloodwar, having a bit time off as the abyss weakened ;)
Say 50 pitfiends, and 15000 lessed demons, the majority those useless ones..nupperibo? And tear some little used city to shreds and setting up their own rule :D
Wouldnt take long for the story to get out how come they had the extra manpower.. forcing the prince of demons to participate, just to pick up the slack.
hahaha!!
I'm planning on using the end of this campaign as the end of the trilogy of games I've run in the Greyhawk world.
The first group I ever ran ended in a TPK and dissolution and I've had them come back in the form of intelligent items.
The second group I ran was for the Age of Worms. I'm thinking of having Kyuss return as an ally of Demogorgon, meaning this group of high level heroes will be perfect to have around to finish the job they started atop Kyuss' tower.
And then the last group will have the chance to end Demogorgon's plan and possibly even take his mantle.
Hopefully my players will like the tie-ins.
Then it's on to Pathfinder!
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Creative Director
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One problem I have noticed with this last adventure is the table that shows Demogorgon at the lower stages (p92) mentions a column called CR, but does not show said column. Should we assume that the column should simply be (33 - NL), or is it a new formula?
Estimating Demogorgon's CR to equal 33 - his negative levels is a good way to go about it.
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To Greg and the editors of Dungeon:
WOW! There are so many ideas for followup events at the end of "Prince of Demons", it's enough for at least 10 more levels of epic adventuring, or maybe a few more Adventure Paths. Now how am I going to get the time to flesh out all that good stuff....
Awesome adventure, thanks!
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I was wrong.
WoD and EoME don't fit the concept of good and evil in my world, so I planned to end this campaign at Serpents of Scuttlecove, but I have to run this adventure!
This thing is just fantastic. The balance of mass battle and personal action is done just right, and the environment is just what the Abyss should be.
I still have to massage the allies situation, but it'll be worth it to see my players in the battle at Wat Dagon.
I have an existing campaign with high level character where the players are interecting with demons.
STAP seems perfect to integrate, but the early adventures are clearly no challenge, so I was going to bring them into the story at the time the adventure hits the Abyss.
One member of the party is a Thrall of Malcanthet, so getting the Queen of Succubi as an ally will be easier.
Of course she will want to plant a kiss on another member of party, rather than her Thrall, as that soul already belongs to her.
There's one question I'd like to get some feedback on though, and that concerns what happens when (if) they kill Demogorgon in Prince of Demons.
There's a good chance that the Sorceress/Thrall of Malcanthet could actually win the battle for control of the title 'Prince of Demons', thus becoming the 'Princess of Demons'.
That will eventually (the game is going epic) put her at a similar power level to Malcanthet herself.
Will that have any effect on her levels of Thrall of Malcanthet?
Will she lose any of the abilities gained from the Prestige Class?
I have an existing campaign with high level character where the players are interecting with demons.
STAP seems perfect to integrate, but the early adventures are clearly no challenge, so I was going to bring them into the story at the time the adventure hits the Abyss.
One member of the party is a Thrall of Malcanthet, so getting the Queen of Succubi as an ally will be easier.
Of course she will want to plant a kiss on another member of party, rather than her Thrall, as that soul already belongs to her.
There's one question I'd like to get some feedback on though, and that concerns what happens when (if) they kill Demogorgon in Prince of Demons.
There's a good chance that the Sorceress/Thrall of Malcanthet could actually win the battle for control of the title 'Prince of Demons', thus becoming the 'Princess of Demons'.
That will eventually (the game is going epic) put her at a similar power level to Malcanthet herself.
Will that have any effect on her levels of Thrall of Malcanthet?
Will she lose any of the abilities gained from the Prestige Class?
Actually, she would probably be slurped up wholesale by Malcanthet (having pledged herself already) via the Pact and Malcanthet would inheret the Crown in question.
Granted, Mally may not retain it very long ...
I'd agree with Turin on that one, maybe the PC is going Epic, but they have already pledged their soul to her. Just so long as Malcanthet doesn't wait until that PC finds some epic way to rid themselves of their Soulpact, she should be able to call that PC to her side (PC would go willingly too) for their 'Final Reward'.
Actually, she would probably be slurped up wholesale by Malcanthet (having pledged herself already) via the Pact and Malcanthet would inheret the Crown in question.
Granted, Mally may not retain it very long ...
Although being 'slurped up by Malcanthet' is a quite possible, it does specify in the Prince of Demons (page 64) that Malcanthet does not want the title, as it 'brings with it too many enemies and trouble'.
Instead it suggests Malcanthet would be more interested in allying with the new 'Prince' and 'controlling' them.
I'd say that having a Thrall in power on another plane counts as having a controlling influence. Especially as I plan on expanding 'The Succubus War' (page 96).
However, what you and (Yasha) said does make me think that the powers granted to a Thrall could be stripped away easily by Malcanthet if the PC chose to be less than cooperative. Perhaps turning the PC into a succubus or something far less appealing.
(spoilers)
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I just finished reading through the issue tonight, and my immediate thought is that Wat Dagon is a serious death-trap. The Kargoth + ghast archers fight is just brutal, then two waves of Nulonga, then finally Nulonga, a balor (assuming Demogorgon pulls off the summons) and Demogorgon himself. Even if the PCs have done everything they could and weakened him severely, he's still pretty ridiculous. Has anyone played through to the end yet? I'd love to see how four PCs stood up to everything.