Okay, it's been a while and I can't find these answers readily. Could someone point me in the right direction?
When an outsider is slain on the prime material, like a Balor demon for example, is it permanently dead? For some reason I have this 100-year banishment thing coming to mind.
Seems like whether or not the outsider is summoned or is brought physically (like through a Gate spell) makes a difference, but I can't remember. Is this right?
When demons and devils die (are killed) on their own plane of origin, like demons being fought in the Abyss, are they permanently dead?
When PCs hit 20th lvl, or any level for that matter, are they considered "outsiders"? In other words, is there any level when a player killed away from their home plane might just "pop" back to their home plane upon death and be "banished" from the plane where they just bit it? (For some reason, I'm thinking variant planescape or something... players usually just die on the plane their visiting, right? And maybe follow rules specific to that plane for deaths of mortals, no?)
Am I mixing someone's old home brew rules with 3.5 stuff? or 1st or 2nd edition with 3.5 rules? I think so, but heh... I can't remember. Any help would be appreciated, thanks!
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When an outsider is slain on the prime material, like a Balor demon for example, is it permanently dead? For some reason I have this 100-year banishment thing coming to mind.
The 100-year banishment thing is a popular choice (R.A. Salvatore uses it in the Drizzt novels when Drizzt 'kills' Errtu) but there are no set-in-stone rules regarding it to my knowledge.
As for PCs at 20th level, the level alone does not change their creature type. Monks become outsiders at level 20 as their 'Perfect Self' ability dictates and some Prestige Classes have a similar effect, but otherwise an increase in level will do nothing to change the character's creature type.
In my games, an outsider slain on his home plane is rendered truly dead. In fact, an outsider slain on any of the Outer Plains is rendered truly dead. Only if the outsider is slain on the Prime Material, Ethereal, Astral, Shadow, or Elemental Planes do they 'pop' back to their home plane (and cannot leave for 100 years).
Again, though, this rule is not quantified anywhere that I'm aware of. Hope this helps.
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According to the Fiendish Codex I (page 9), demons killed outside of the Abyss eventually return to the Abyss unless prevented through magical means, but if it is killed on the Abyss, it is permanently destroyed.
As far as the 100 years, I didn't see anything about that. I do remember an adventure in Dungeon that had an imprisoned imp contemplating suicide, since it considered 100 years on its home plane better than it's continued current existence, but since an imp is a devil and not a demon, the 100 year banishment may only apply to devils. I happen to have that one book with me, but none of the others, so if anyone has FC II, that might help.
1st edition had sections in the Monster Manual for demons' amulets and the like; time periods for various killings and/or banishments were spelled out (a century in the Abyss for a major demon killed on the Prime plane; only a year if you destroyed a prince's amulet, but he couldn't return without being summoned). Devils had talismans that followed similar rules (but they got only a decade in Hell, if a greater devil was slain on the Prime). Minor demons (glabrezu and weaker) and lesser devils (bone or weaker) could be killed permanently anywhere. In 3rd edition, it seems like these conventions were omitted from the canon, as was the idea of strictly dividing fiends into categores (greater/lesser or major/minor).
Of course it never clearly states whether a demon or devil banished back to its home plane can be summoned again before its detention period elapses. Since most demons and devils (even the arch-dukes and demon princes) can't travel to the prime without assistance it seems that the whole banishment thing would prevents them from being summoned by wizards or clerics. Then again, I'm not sure if that's exactly what it means. I think that's why the designers were fairly ambivalent about it and just said that the demon or devil reformed after a certain time period.
And I can't make heads or tails of what I just said.
In 3.0/3.5 it depends on a few factors. If the outsider is summoned by a summon monster/nature's ally spell, then killing the summoned outsider has no permanent effect; the outsider can be summoned again without restriction. If the outsider has been called by a planar ally/binding spell, then they can be "permanently" killed, although their spirits/souls would travel to the appropriate outer plane, as with any other killed creature; this could mean starting over as a lower-powered outsider and spending some time regaining their might. Arch-Devils and Demon Lords (and other planar rulers, at the DM's option) have the ability to create aspects, weaker versions of themselves that they send to accomplish various missions while remaining on their home planes; killing an aspect, while weakening the outsider somewhat, does not inhibit other aspects or the "true" outsider (although creating a new aspect and/or sending another aspect may be a time-consuming process).
Excellent! Many thanks for all your answers, everyone!
In 3.0/3.5 it depends on a few factors. If the outsider is summoned by a summon monster/nature's ally spell, then killing the summoned outsider has no permanent effect; the outsider can be summoned again without restriction. If the outsider has been called by a planar ally/binding spell, then they can be "permanently" killed, although their spirits/souls would travel to the appropriate outer plane, as with any other killed creature; this could mean starting over as a lower-powered outsider and spending some time regaining their might. Arch-Devils and Demon Lords (and other planar rulers, at the DM's option) have the ability to create aspects, weaker versions of themselves that they send to accomplish various missions while remaining on their home planes; killing an aspect, while weakening the outsider somewhat, does not inhibit other aspects or the "true" outsider (although creating a new aspect and/or sending another aspect may be a time-consuming process).
This is how we play it as well.
-Roth
I am just reading FCII and it says a devil slain on the Prime Material Plane reforms in Hell after 99 years (although not necessarily in the form it was killed in). I think for demons it is similar, although I guess the time to reform is random due to the chaotic alignment. PCs however never snap back to their plane of existance after being killed "abroad". Only exception, if they are traveling to the other plane by Atral Projection Spell.
If your player wants a weapon to kill demons and devils permanently on the Prime, consider a Sphere of Anihilation type of effect (isn't there some 9th level spell which produces a sword which functions similar to this artifact...but cannot remember which). At level 29 the PCs still have the option to use wish after killing the demon/devil, which should keep it dead...maybe it would get a save.
I am just reading FCII and it says...
Fiendish Codex II, right?
Anyone ever create or seen any weapon like the one my player is asking for? I have my own ideas but I just wanted to hear some thoughts.
Yes: I applied the cost for soul bind as a use-activated spell (9th level x 17th caster level x 2000 gp = 306,000 gp (over the 200K gp limit, so now epic) x 10 = 3,060,000 gp). On the killing blow, the weapon destoyed the victim's soul/life force/spirit/essence, so that outsiders were killed permanently (no matter where you did it), and mortals couldn't be raised/resurrected.
.... On the killing blow, the weapon destoyed the victim's soul/life force/spirit/essence, so that outsiders were killed permanently (no matter where you did it), and mortals couldn't be raised/resurrected.Wowy! That's really evil, every devil will really like to give this weapon to the player....and then stay far away! I would say: straight way to hell...if you do not hurt yourself with your own sword, that is ;-)
Wowy! That's really evil, every devil will really like to give this weapon to the player....and then stay far away! I would say: straight way to hell...if you do not hurt yourself with your own sword, that is ;-)
The PCs captured it from an evil wizard--who had constructed it for use against their patron (a good NPC wizard who uses clones, etc. to stay "immortal"). I noted in a different thread that they couldn't very well sell the thing, as that would put it back into circulation (which was precisely what they wanted to avoid). So one of the PCs kept it, named it, and now carefully avoids crowded public places (because people can feel the thing's hunger even when it's sheathed) and police (because soul-destroying weapons are illegal in the campaign world). It's been a LOT of fun.
Reminds me a little of the sword Blackrazor from the old D&D module White Plume Mountain, except that it sucked souls into it.
Reminds me a little of the sword Blackrazor from the old D&D module White Plume Mountain, except that it sucked souls into it.
Of course... and Blackrazor was an overt ripoff of Stormbringer, from Michael Moorcock's "Elric" series: the module's back cover even showed the sword being held by albino! Also, Steve Brust's "Dragaeran" novels are full of soul-destroying ("Morganti") weapons. Those sorts of arms are such a perennial fantasy staple it's a mystery why there isn't a DMG weapon property for it.
Also noteworthy, in the Manual of the Planes, there's a spell called "Revive Outsider," which is capable of bringing back a slain outsider (which is why the Wells of Darkness are so popular in the Abyss. Easier to keep troublesome foes/rivals imprisoned in untouchable "limbo" than dead, sometimes.)
Oh man I have heard about this before when we started playing 3rd edition when I got started on official D&D stuff (we did some altered rules of 2nd edition for a bit before then)
I remember hearing this come up when we killed some nasty outsider, that he came back to life over on his plane and the only way to really kill him was to go to his plane and do it. This made me wig out and ask why and all sorts of stuff. But no time limit was ever talked about, I just thought that if you killed them here they went back there and just could go back immediately, but 99/100 years sounds like a nice amount of time being forced with house arrest. Or actually i like the idea of the body being reformed for so many years too.
That would make for a great campaign hook, "98 years ago our great great grandfathers banded together to slay the evil arch devil. This has been going on for generations and generations nearly every 100 years... the body is fully formed on the 99th year and they attack soon after as they always do. The time draws near for their regeneration to be complete and we must come to arms!"
That would make for a great campaign hook, "98 years ago our great great grandfathers banded together to slay the evil arch devil.
That's been a perennial favorite in our homebrew campaign... over 200 years of game time (accounting for all the better spells & new magic items and classes in the various books that keep getting published), and three times now they've had to fight the icky tentacular Cthulhu-mythos-like horror that appears every century on the hill on Eldritch Isle...
That reminds me of Morgaine's sword (the Morgaine Saga by C.J. Cherryh). Except it wasn't really a sword. It was a gate (in sword form) that sent whoever it touched into the void between the stars. I don't know how effective that would be against demons or devils, though.
Reminds me a little of the sword Blackrazor from the old D&D module White Plume Mountain, except that it sucked souls into it.Of course... and Blackrazor was an overt ripoff of Stormbringer, from Michael Moorcock's "Elric" series: the module's back cover even showed the sword being held by albino! Also, Steve Brust's "Dragaeran" novels are full of soul-destroying ("Morganti") weapons. Those sorts of arms are such a perennial fantasy staple it's a mystery why there isn't a DMG weapon property for it.
That reminds me of Morgaine's sword (the Morgaine Saga by C.J. Cherryh). Except it wasn't really a sword. It was a gate (in sword form) that sent whoever it touched into the void between the stars.
That was exactly our homebrew ruling for how swords like Blackrazor worked, back in 1st edition. There is nothing new under the sun (or between them)!