Subtle characters are great in the STAP when the adventures start. You can have great success with a Bard, Rogue, Swashbuckler, Spellfilcher, Jester, or other 'combat light' heroes. But then the game changes as the levels get higher and you need a PC to dish out big damage. Suddenly your cool subtle character is meat! What do you do? Multi-classing can not save your tail. A few of the encounters will waste a PC who isn't min-maxed.
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Subtle characters are great in the STAP when the adventures start. You can have great success with a Bard, Rogue, Swashbuckler, Spellfilcher, Jester, or other 'combat light' heroes. But then the game changes as the levels get higher and you need a PC to dish out big damage. Suddenly your cool subtle character is meat! What do you do? Multi-classing can not save your tail. A few of the encounters will waste a PC who isn't min-maxed.
We have a big party, which allows for a few of the lighter types. We have a water shugenja who has pulled out his wakizashi maybe a half dozen times total so far. And I wouldn't include the Swashbuckler into the group you just rattled off, they are competent fighter-types.
Simple enough. Change the latter encounters so they are appropriate to the group. Use the modules/adventures as guidelines rather than straightjackets, basically.
Try examining "Use Magic Device" more closely. The DCs are static; even though the skill starts out fairly useless since it never works, eventually you can make any check possible without even rolling. Scrolls mean that you can cast any spell in existence. Are divine casters like a cleric or a druid valuable at high levels? Are arcane casters like a wizard or sorceror? Well congratulation, so too is your skill monkey valuable.
As long as you have access to a steady supply of useful magic items, and if there's a caster in the party you should have such a supply, you will be useful. That is even disregarding your ability to become a dual-wielding ginsu-blender in a pinch, which still works regularly right up to the end of the adventure path, unlike Age of Worms.
Not to mention that you'll need those diplomatic types when it comes time to put the hard sell on Red Shroud, Iggwilv, Malcanthet, Orcus, and company. Or to get the inmates of Divided's Ire to kill each other off instead of you. In some cases, even where combat is inevitable, diplomacy makes the ultra-deadly high level combats just a bit less deadly--cf. the "Thanatos" section of Enemy of My Enemy.
Not to mention that you'll need those diplomatic types when it comes time to put the hard sell on Red Shroud, Iggwilv, Malcanthet, Orcus, and company. Or to get the inmates of Divided's Ire to kill each other off instead of you. In some cases, even where combat is inevitable, diplomacy makes the ultra-deadly high level combats just a bit less deadly--cf. the "Thanatos" section of Enemy of My Enemy.
Exactly. In "Wells of Darkness" you're not doing a whole lot more THAN talking, and Skullport, Divide's Ire and Enemy of My Enemy have some tense parleys indeed.
Just remember, as you hack through an endless string of vine horrors, that soon enough The figher types will be sitting uncomfortably around Iggwilv's table, trying not to mess things up for the talker-types, while fondly remembering the isle of dread, back when there was just no reasoning with good ol' T-Rex.
This AP's got something for everyone. Don't sweat it if it isn't somebody's particular turn right now. It's coming.
I agree that in "Enemy of my Enemy" you need some good Diplomacy skills. A couple other adventures too. But also look at those same adventures and you'll see that you can end having one PC fight at least 2 undead giants and a crawling head alone! One failed roll and you might end up toast! I don't know about you but my PCs have days when the dice don't obey.
I also agree that it is better to alter the adventures to suit your PCs. That might mean removing a big CR monster. As I'm reading these adventures I keep asking myself "how are they going to get past that?"
As a DM I hate when the players feel they have to min-max a PC. Rather than create a cool character they feel they have to dump skill points/take Feats in things that will always make them combat machines.
In a word: teamwork.
The subtle characters may not have the same damage dealing capability by themselves, but using flanking tactics with the party sneak-attacker, buff spells on the party combatants, and disabling spells on the opposition can allow the group to waltz through most encounters. Even the tough encounters can be managed with the appropriate preparation (potions and limited use items to super-buff, minimizing the effectiveness of the foes by avoiding their strengths, etc.). All of the APs place a premium on good tactics and teamwork; the STAP is no exception.
For example, take a human swashbuckler (Appraise instead of Craft as a class skill) with Merchant's Tongue (Savage Tide Player's Guide) and Exotic Weapons (Firearms). Look, a merchant-adventurer (starting with a firearm pistol at 1st level), how appropriate. At 3rd level, the character takes Quick Draw. At 4th level, the character multiclasses to swashbuckler 3/bard 1. After one more level of either bard or swashbuckler, the character becomes a Dread Pirate (Complete Adventurer, honorable version) and takes Extra Music. Is this character going to be a one-person damage machine? No, but the character helps the entire party fight better and can act as a main combatant (especially with the Shield of Blades alternate swashbuckler ability in PHB II and limiting the number of bard levels to three or four). With maximum ranks in Diplomacy and Profession (Sailor), the character is also a shoo-in for the captain of the Sea Wyvern and the party negotiator.
Okay I agree everyone has to work together. But that is true of all D&D games (although not all D&D players).
It just seems to me that when you face one of the cloned aspects of Demogorgon the PC who decided to play a Wizard/ Diviner is going to wish that he had more flashy spells. The Swashbuckler you have all mentioned (and it is a class I love) isn't going to have the AC to stand toe to toe with some of these bad things and his weapon choice is smaller than say a Fighter with heavy armor who min-maxed the greatsword all the way.
I just wonder if anyone who is currently running the STAP is seeing his players regret choosing several PC types as the adventure path switches gears and becomes more combat focused.
It's not a bad thing, it just is.
Okay I agree everyone has to work together. But that is true of all D&D games (although not all D&D players).
It just seems to me that when you face one of the cloned aspects of Demogorgon the PC who decided to play a Wizard/ Diviner is going to wish that he had more flashy spells.
From a powergaming standpoint, the Diviner is the strongest of all specialists, because they have to give up virtually nothing. They give up one school, which can be the extremely redundant and underpowered evocation, the almost exclusively mind-affecting enchantment, the almost wholly DM-dependent illusion, or the narrowly-focused and therefore replaceable by magic items necromancy school.
The Swashbuckler you have all mentioned (and it is a class I love) isn't going to have the AC to stand toe to toe with some of these bad things and his weapon choice is smaller than say a Fighter with heavy armor who min-maxed the greatsword all the way.
On the other hand, the Swashbuckler with light armor didn't drown after falling overboard way back in Sea Wyvern's Wake. Also, light armor is better than heavy armor for most purposes because it doesn't restrict your movement options. Having a huge AC doesn't really help if the monsters just part around you and hit the casters, and you're too slow to protect them.
Nor is a two-handed weapon the only way to deal big damage with a melee type, although it is admittedly the simplest.
I just wonder if anyone who is currently running the STAP is seeing his players regret choosing several PC types as the adventure path switches gears and becomes more combat focused.
It's not a bad thing, it just is.
Changes gears? It seems to be combat-heavy right from the start.
It just seems to me that when you face one of the cloned aspects of Demogorgon the PC who decided to play a Wizard/ Diviner is going to wish that he had more flashy spells. The Swashbuckler you have all mentioned (and it is a class I love) isn't going to have the AC to stand toe to toe with some of these bad things and his weapon choice is smaller than say a Fighter with heavy armor who min-maxed the greatsword all the way.
Who says a Diviner can't have flashy spells? Choose Enchantment or Necromancy as the prohibited school and you have access to all the damaging Conjuration and Evocation spells. If the Diviner is an elf, half-elf, or human, take a level or two of sorcerer and you can use staffs and wands with spells from your prohibited school. The number of non-Divination spells a Diviner can prepare is the same as a non-specialist Wizard. If the player makes poor decisions on spell choices/preparation, that's not a problem with the class.
A swashbuckler wearing a +4 mithral breastplate (light armor) gains a +9 armor bonus and can have up to a +5 Dex bonus to AC, compared to +4 plate armor which grants a +12 armor bonus and allows only a +1 Dex bonus. The swashbuckler will usually have comparable normal AC and a higher touch AC (even with +4 mithral plate armor, the difference is only +15 total to +14 total). Add in Shield of Blades and the swashbuckler can gain a higher AC than the greatsword fighter.
I just wonder if anyone who is currently running the STAP is seeing his players regret choosing several PC types as the adventure path switches gears and becomes more combat focused.
Just looking at the first two adventures, are you saying the Blue Nixie, Parrot Island, Kraken Cove, and the rescue at the Vanderboren estate are not combat focused? There are plenty of opportunities for NPC interaction, but combat is still very important.
Okay I agree everyone has to work together. But that is true of all D&D games (although not all D&D players).
It just seems to me that when you face one of the cloned aspects of Demogorgon the PC who decided to play a Wizard/ Diviner is going to wish that he had more flashy spells. The Swashbuckler you have all mentioned (and it is a class I love) isn't going to have the AC to stand toe to toe with some of these bad things and his weapon choice is smaller than say a Fighter with heavy armor who min-maxed the greatsword all the way.
I just wonder if anyone who is currently running the STAP is seeing his players regret choosing several PC types as the adventure path switches gears and becomes more combat focused.
It's not a bad thing, it just is.
Hmm - if all my players were really in a flashiness over number crunch mood I'd probably even the odds with something like action points. After all that will add more flash bang to the game and clearly fit the theme.
Subtle characters are great in the STAP when the adventures start. You can have great success with a Bard, Rogue, Swashbuckler, Spellfilcher, Jester, or other 'combat light' heroes. But then the game changes as the levels get higher and you need a PC to dish out big damage. Suddenly your cool subtle character is meat! What do you do? Multi-classing can not save your tail. A few of the encounters will waste a PC who isn't min-maxed.
The AP's "assume too much". This is just poor writing, IMHO, but also indicative of the general concensus of how 3e is 'supposed to be played'. In short, if you aren't min/MAXED, you *will* die. We did have a rogue survive for a few sessions though...a whispergnome who 'specialized' in hiding and avoiding all combat if at all possible. Worked fine until she was seen by a bunch of Naga's and they all magic missiled her...
I agree with you 100% about 'subtle' characters being nothing more than monster food in STAP. This also goes for SCAP and probably AOWAP (which I haven't played, and never plan to). The AP's, IMHO, are *not* written with role-playing in mind. Some sections sure seem like it, to be sure, but when the AP as a whole is looked at...it's all about the numbers. How high your AC is, how many HP's you have, how good your saves are, and how much damage you can deal out in a single round. If you don't have the numbers, your chances of success quickly dwindle.
Subtle characters are great in the STAP when the adventures start. You can have great success with a Bard, Rogue, Swashbuckler, Spellfilcher, Jester, or other 'combat light' heroes. But then the game changes as the levels get higher and you need a PC to dish out big damage. Suddenly your cool subtle character is meat! What do you do? Multi-classing can not save your tail. A few of the encounters will waste a PC who isn't min-maxed.The AP's "assume too much". This is just poor writing, IMHO, but also indicative of the general concensus of how 3e is 'supposed to be played'. In short, if you aren't min/MAXED, you *will* die. We did have a rogue survive for a few sessions though...a whispergnome who 'specialized' in hiding and avoiding all combat if at all possible. Worked fine until she was seen by a bunch of Naga's and they all magic missiled her...
I agree with you 100% about 'subtle' characters being nothing more than monster food in STAP. This also goes for SCAP and probably AOWAP (which I haven't played, and never plan to). The AP's, IMHO, are *not* written with role-playing in mind. Some sections sure seem like it, to be sure, but when the AP as a whole is looked at...it's all about the numbers. How high your AC is, how many HP's you have, how good your saves are, and how much damage you can deal out in a single round. If you don't have the numbers, your chances of success quickly dwindle.
I think that you are also assuming that one plays the AP without any modifications. Its the DMs job to set the tone and make it fun for all. Therefore, if your group likes role-playing, in depth character backgrounds, and funky characters then the AP should be adjusted accordingly. The same goes for those who min-max their characters. The AP is supposed to be tough, granted, but it's up to the DM to make sure the players (and the DM!) have fun. Its not fun to roll up new characters every other session, I know. With some slight tweaking, the AP is more than playable without being a meatgrinder.
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In my Ptolus campaign, one player is playing a swashbuckler, and is constantly ribbed about not being a real fighter.
However, whenever possible he takes point and holds off everything in a chokepoint, because with combat expertise and fighting defensively he can crank his AC through the roof. I believe he has a +1 mithril shirt for armour. He doesn't get a lot of hits when he does this, but the rest of the party can sit back and blast from range.
The swashbuckler's light armour limitation is not a limitation of meaning, because they will almost always max out their DEX, meaning that the heavier armour gives them no AC advantage. So they have as good AC as a heavy fighter, with better movement.
Throw in deadly defense for a bit of a damage boost, and you have an extremely effective combat character.
Just sayin'
I like the STAP a lot! I just like to run games with unique PCs who are well rounded and are not focused on dealing big dice damage. Don't get me wrong, combat is great but I just don't see some PC's making from 1-20 in the STAP the way it is written. If you pull it off, great! Let me know the secret of how you did it with out min-maxing the PC.
And if my examples with the Swashbuckler and Diviner are poor examples of subtle PC classes I apologize. They were to be seen as fun and creative PCs that may not be 'combat gods'. If you make your Swashbucklers and Diviners super tough then good for you! But by doing so if you min-max them you missed my point. You hit the content not the objective.
My players are doing pretty good and are not min-maxed. We've only had two permanent deaths, which were then rectified. I think what really stopped a lot of character was a min-maxed character who's not with us anymore, but he absorbed a lot of damage in the first two modules.
I agree that interesting characters are the best, but I still think it's very possible to take them from 1-20. And I love STAP too!
I like the STAP a lot! I just like to run games with unique PCs who are well rounded and are not focused on dealing big dice damage. Don't get me wrong, combat is great but I just don't see some PC's making from 1-20 in the STAP the way it is written. If you pull it off, great! Let me know the secret of how you did it with out min-maxing the PC.
And if my examples with the Swashbuckler and Diviner are poor examples of subtle PC classes I apologize. They were to be seen as fun and creative PCs that may not be 'combat gods'. If you make your Swashbucklers and Diviners super tough then good for you! But by doing so if you min-max them you missed my point. You hit the content not the objective.
Oddles of action points? staff of many resurrections? Just starting at a higher level? Frequent Flier (or sailor) points that can be cashed in for magic items?
If you want your players to start at 1st and end at 20th there are lots of ways a DM can tilt the odds in his players favour. Its a lot easier for a DM to make his players powerful then it is for a DM to make a weak module harder. Especially considering that the modules are mostly pure core rules and players get an advantage just by accessing none core books. Keep in mind that close to half the complaints on this board are dealing with the problem that these adventures 'are a complete cake walk' for the players. In fact I'd say that the staff has pretty much hit the nail on the head with the difficulty level - 49% board is b#~*!ing that the adventures are too hard, 49% of the board is complaining that they are too easy and 2% thinks they are just right.
All that said the DMs who think the adventures are to hard have it easy - you can always introduce something to give your players an edge. The reverse is not true - if this is too easy then the DM is stuck reworking the encounters more or less one by one to make them tougher (usually by buffing up the bad guys point buys to make them on par with the players and repicking spells and feats to take into account the two dozen splat books that are in play in their campaign).
Throw in deadly defense for a bit of a damage boost, and you have an extremely effective combat character.
How funny you mention that! I was rewriting the most important NPCs on the Wyvern last night, and in changing Amella to a rogue 3/swashbuckler 3 w/Combat Expertise and Improved Feint (don't forget Daring Outlaw!) I saw Deadly Defense in Complete Scoundrel. Feinting and fighting defensively has never hurt so good!
I like the STAP a lot! I just like to run games with unique PCs who are well rounded and are not focused on dealing big dice damage. Don't get me wrong, combat is great but I just don't see some PC's making from 1-20 in the STAP the way it is written. If you pull it off, great! Let me know the secret of how you did it with out min-maxing the PC.
And if my examples with the Swashbuckler and Diviner are poor examples of subtle PC classes I apologize. They were to be seen as fun and creative PCs that may not be 'combat gods'. If you make your Swashbucklers and Diviners super tough then good for you! But by doing so if you min-max them you missed my point. You hit the content not the objective.
The PCs are supposed to be heroes. Adventuring is a dangerous profession where only the skilled and the lucky survive for any length of time. The game is called Dungeons and Dragons, after all, not Manors and Merchants. The adventure paths are designed as epic (in the classical sense), save the world type campaigns. They demand that the party be effective in combat AND out.
The swashbuckler in my post above is an example of a combat effective character who is also effective in social situations and can easily assume a strong story role in the STAP (much more so than the uber-specialized two-handed melee fighter). Add a few personality quirks and a handfull of ranks in some non-standard skill(s) to make the character "well rounded." To reiterate some of the other posters, "well rounded" and combat effective are not mutually exclusive. Sure, you can run inept bards or diviners without offensive spells, but how would they survive in a typical dungeon without a lot of DM fudging? If you're going to attempt a dangerous task, would you rather have a skilled professional or a style-over-substance type to assist you?
well, subtle characters face a certain problem in the long-run of the STAP.
For one, they always work better if the group is the active party and the NPCs are only reacting. Because that usually means that the Swashbuckler (or whoever )can pick a spot in the oncoming combat that allows him to play to the best of his abilities.
This is not usually the case in the STAP, especially in the later adventures (everything in the Abyss and beyond ). It is also hard before, especially inside CoBI and with the assault on Farshore. Or with opponents striking with a higher iniative or from ambush
As for Swashbucklers, while stylish, im my experience they are very ill-conceived - simply because they cannot usually deal enough damage while surviving physical attacks. They also are significantly lacking in skillpoints - which means few secondary skills. Why anyone who wants to play along that role would not opt for a duelist (based on a rogue+fighter) escapes me...
And, overall, multi-classing is almost a binding requirement for the STAP, due to the murderously high Save-DCs of some of the attacks later in the game - which few single-class characters can even hope to make (our almost single-class warblade - minimally helped by his 2 levels of bard - can be predictably heard groanng every time a save is called for. That is even with his save-supporting manouevres ! And, simply said, a warblade is much stronger on the saves and defensive than a "subtle" swashbuckler....).
As a short aside for "prohibited schools" - why anyone would contemplate forbidding himself acess to necromancy for high-level arcane caster play totally eludes me. To miss out on "Enervation", easily the most viscious debuff in the game ""as is against the BBGs is like going to war and leaving the armour at home. An average empowered, split-rayed or even fel-draining "Enervation" ripping 3-5 level off the opponent (with no save to boot)while imposing a like penalty to all his actions and crippling his SLAs/spells is..... well.....
Yeah, it does not work against undeads....but necromancy has some other very nice stuff versus them, right ?
Asfor the "subtle guys" - in our STAP, each and everyone of them has died, simply because far too often "subtle does not work" and they are hard pressed being effective without that. The chars that survive are "heavy hitters who also have skills".... just my observation, but one very very true for this campaign path.
As for Swashbucklers, ... They also are significantly lacking in skillpoints - which means few secondary skills. Why anyone who wants to play along that role would not opt for a duelist (based on a rogue+fighter) escapes me...
Swashbucklers get 4 skill points per level and an incentive to have a high Intelligence. And they're more offensively focused than a duelist, which is a stellar defensive class but has next to zero offensive output.
It's a mistake to progress very far in the class, but a clever player will move from Swashbuckler into Dervish or Iajutsu Master, both of which have stronger offensive output AND have a strong set of "soft skills" and ... oops, I'm being effective. Sorry.
The 'Duelist', being invariably based on a rogue, has the opportunity for Sneak damage, hence, by using feints or flanking to significantly improve his damage output. In combination with some of the augmentation gems from the "Magic Item Compendium" ( highly recommended ) he can even extend that extra damage to undeads... And he HAS, as you said a stellar defense, evasion (ever met a duelsit without three levels of rogue ?), better offensive damage potential, could move to "tempest" or other useful light fighter class (while maintaining his superior damage ), could use "ambush feats" which trade sneak damage for other defects (an option not readily available for swashbucklers etc etc etc...
Give him a quick level in "Shadow Thief of Amn" and or another in "Assassin" (yeah, that is ruthless min/maxing ) and his extra Sneak damage goes to 4D6....Duelists have an incentive for high intelligence too, and light fighters generally opt for it anyway to have access to the "combat expertise" feat-chain
It is a PrCl though and needs some time to qualify for it.
And yes, it may be a question of perception, but the swashbuckler ist only really a viable character at lower levels. Especially since skill tricks from Complete Scoundrel allow a whole bunch of classes to closely mimic the swashbuckler's more interesting abilities (I recently saw a human druid - for review - with the tumble skill and associated skill tricks - thanks to the "Able Learner" feat from RoD . Now that was scary ! ) and allow a more uniquely customized char even with the blander core-classes.
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The one I had in my party was going for the Legendary Captain PrC. He had a pretty effective build going. I agree with others that you don't want 20 Levels of Swashbuckler most likely, but that doesn't mean to just chuck the class entirely.
I should add to this the explanation for why all that is past-tense. The PC didn't die, the player simply got a new job that was incompatible with the game time. :)
Most of the best role-played PCs I have had the pleasure DMing for have had a more subtle feel to them with some human weaknesses and frailties. Such PCs would die in the Abyssal encounters as they are written.
Then maybe they should rely on their friends and companions to cover for their weaknesses? You know, like a team?
Or do the other players prefer to abandon the role-player's PC to his or her fate? Do they refuse to cooperate with each other at all as friends sitting around a table? Is it not possible to each role-play a PC who wants to protect his or her precious companions, and makes effort to do so?
Some players might just feel frustration ( I know some ) if they perceive someone as "not pulling his weight", yes.
But usually that is more of a problem in the way someone plays his/her character instead of what character gets played.... That said, I myself consider it deeply frustrating playingand building a character up to a rounded and memorable identity and then realizing that while I love and labour for him, the concept just does not work out or frustrates me from here to tomorrow through its inability...
As for "to protect and defend".... I know a couple of players who would deeply protest that as "boring" and clicheed. Yeah, their groups are very ineffective at teamwork (check the "DM-Kill board thread" to read about some of their exploits...)
The PCs are supposed to be heroes. Adventuring is a dangerous profession where only the skilled and the lucky survive for any length of time. The game is called Dungeons and Dragons, after all, not Manors and Merchants. The adventure paths are designed as epic (in the classical sense), save the world type campaigns. They demand that the party be effective in combat AND out.
I think in part STAP and the DMs bring it on themselves. I mean if you sell the campaign to the players as Swashbucklers! and "like the movie Pirates of the Caribbean!" you have a pretty good chance of getting players who are great at daring do and performance and all sorts of things but where combat synergies are way down at the bottom of the list. So you can get a character with a rapier - and instead of improved critical he has skill focus: tumbling.
The problem is the players have been sold on a campaign thats about romantic ballads, suave swashbucklers and comical scenes involving swinging down on a rope to rescue the fair maiden and missing.
I'm not 100% sure that STAP really does support that sort of thing all that well but a good DM can make it all of the above.
Action points could help players like this out but in the above circumstance I might go with something like "Foible Points". You don't play them on yourself - you play them on your friends and enemies. A foible point means that a bad guy can't effectively do anything for a round. The Tyrannosaurus trips, The BBEG gets so caught up in his evil bad guy speech that he just keeps going on and on about his dastardly deeds through his whole round. The fair maiden throws a bucket of water into the face of her attacker giving our hero another round to try and swing back down and save her since he seems to have missed on the last pass.
The PCs are supposed to be heroes. Adventuring is a dangerous profession where only the skilled and the lucky survive for any length of time. The game is called Dungeons and Dragons, after all, not Manors and Merchants. The adventure paths are designed as epic (in the classical sense), save the world type campaigns. They demand that the party be effective in combat AND out.I think in part STAP and the DMs bring it on themselves. I mean if you sell the campaign to the players as Swashbucklers! and "like the movie Pirates of the Caribbean!" you have a pretty good chance of getting players who are great at daring do and performance and all sorts of things but where combat synergies are way down at the bottom of the list. So you can get a character with a rapier - and instead of improved critical he has skill focus: tumbling.
The problem is the players have been sold on a campaign thats about romantic ballads, suave swashbucklers and comical scenes involving swinging down on a rope to rescue the fair maiden and missing.
Well, if a player wants a character to be good at swinging on ropes and other acrobatics, then they should invest skill points in Tumbling and Use Rope. Then, they should take feats such as Dodge, Mobility, and Spring Attack to gain even more use of those skill points. Taking Skill Focus (Tumbling) is not going to make a swashbuckler unplayable; it just means investing in a keen rapier.
One more time: "well rounded" and combat effective are not mutually exclusive. Also, there is a difference between combat effective and uber-tricked out munchkin. One or two sub-optimal feats aren't going to make a character "ineffective" or "monster food." However, if the players don't use tactics and teamwork, don't advance their characters to meet their role(s) in the party, and make poor decisions on their characters' actions, they will find the AP's extremely difficult.
Perhaps it's a result of playing a lot of tournament modules in the '80s, but I tend to get upset with the false separation some players make between "story characters" and "combat characters."
I agree that "Story Characters" can be "Combat Characters". But are all Combat Characters Story Characters? At the game table today there is focus on making World of Warcraft styled/ Munchkin/ Kill things and take stuff styled Characters. This is fine but what if you want to play a Character who isn't and will not become a Combat Character and is a great Story Character? A Character who supports the party and is run by a great player? Can such a Character dwell in D&D today? They can and do in my campaigns (and they are the heroes and do things normal NPCs can't). I just think that STAP needs you to grind out a combat tough PC in the last 5 adventures. If you have a subtle character(s) in your group and only have 4 PCs you will need to adjust the game to keep it fun and the PCs alive.
The thing is, when you choose to play out a certain kind of adventure path you either have to modify it as you'd prefer or else do a different one. This is a fairly tough one, it requires diplomacy, tactical ability and combat strength. It also requires a fairly cohesive group to play it out well.
However the underlying thing is this: once you buy it, its yours. If your players would rather play a swashbuckler kind of game then if you feel the need to modify it towards that I'd say go for it and have fun. However you can always suggest character combinations that might enable a similar flavour.
If by "subtle characters" you mean characters who can deal with problems by other means than poking them with swords or blasting them with fireballs, I should think that a well-conceived "subtle character" would thrive (and help the party thrive) in the last parts of the AP. Characters that can find out what's up (through divinations, gather info, sense motive, spot, etc.) can prevent some of the tougher encounters or give the party forewarning so they can engage the enemy on their own terms. Characters that can get the enemy on their side (through diplomacy and enchantments, etc.) can more easily enlist allies or get other bad guys to do the dirty work for them (this is one way to get through Divided's Ire, it makes the Wells of Darkness easier, and the entire premise of Enemy of My Enemy is based around this). Characters that fight cleverly (feint, combat expertise, tumble, mobility, flanking, sneak attacks) should be able to avoid significant damage for rounds at a time, waiting for a tactical opportunity to exploit.
Sure, most parties will want a tank and a blaster mage, but subtle characters can do just fine if the player knows how to build and run such a character that is reasonably optimized. And the party may not always recognize it, but a well-played character in this vein is going to make a huge contribution by making some encounters into non-encounters.
The key here, for the player, is not to play a "subtle character" like a tank--you've got to pick your spots and be willing to do things in combat that don't seem to contribute as much as the raging barbarian's four power attacks with the greataxe or the mage's narsty blaster spell. Don't underestimate the value, though, of things like bardic music, or of fighting defensively with full combat expertise up to protect one flank of the party so that the tank and the blaster mage can do their jobs, or of hiding in the shadows and making a single deadly strike to despatch the BBEG a round early, or casting "subtle" spells like silence and darkness to shape the battlefield. You may not register as many kills, but by keeping enemies occupied, you make just as much a contribution to the victory.
A recent case in point--we just concluded a campaign in which I played a rogue/favored soul/shadowbane stalker. Emerald was anything but flashy, and she couldn't go around banishing devils, pounding giants into hamburger, or blasting Zhent sky-mages out of the air. The final battle of the campaign featured an 18th level cleric with a pair of very potent sidekicks and a sonic-based artifact that turned half of the party against the other half. The party's tanks did the bulk of the blood-spilling in this final battle, but the battle would have been lost before it started if Emerald hadn't used invisibility and a succession of silence spells to negate the high priestess's spellcasting, shut down the party wizard after he was turned to the dark side, and keep the artifact from affecting the entire party. Yup, that's right--a pair of 2nd level spells saved the day for a 13th level party facing an 18th level cleric with the destruction domain, plus her minions.
This wasn't ST, but it was an encounter worthy of ST, and it illustrates the point that a "subtle character" played subtly and as part of an effective team can thrive in a challenging high-level campaign.
I agree that "Story Characters" can be "Combat Characters". But are all Combat Characters Story Characters? At the game table today there is focus on making World of Warcraft styled/ Munchkin/ Kill things and take stuff styled Characters. This is fine but what if you want to play a Character who isn't and will not become a Combat Character and is a great Story Character? A Character who supports the party and is run by a great player? Can such a Character dwell in D&D today? They can and do in my campaigns (and they are the heroes and do things normal NPCs can't). I just think that STAP needs you to grind out a combat tough PC in the last 5 adventures. If you have a subtle character(s) in your group and only have 4 PCs you will need to adjust the game to keep it fun and the PCs alive.
There has always been the hack-and-slash contingent for whom actual roleplaying is an afterthought (if it's a consideration at all). However, all of the Adventure Paths demand a lot out of the party in combat, not just Savage Tide. It's part and parcel of the concept of the Adventure Paths: they're supposed to be challenging and demand that the party performs at a high level of skill in multiple areas (combat, negotiation, problem solving, etc.) simultaneously.
Of course, one of the jobs of the DM is to personalize the adventures to the PCs. If you have players that are either more or less combat effective than expected, then adjust the difficulty. For every group that struggles or gets TPKed, there seems to be another that handles the "tough" encounters with ease. High-level encounters assume that the party has magic items appropriate to their level and the presence of buff spells cast on the party. If your group doesn't regularly enhance party members with spells, they will find high-level adventures very difficult.
Well, if a player wants a character to be good at swinging on ropes and other acrobatics, then they should invest skill points in Tumbling and Use Rope. Then, they should take feats such as Dodge, Mobility, and Spring Attack to gain even more use of those skill points. Taking Skill Focus (Tumbling) is not going to make a swashbuckler unplayable; it just means investing in a keen rapier.One more time: "well rounded" and combat effective are not mutually exclusive. Also, there is a difference between combat effective and uber-tricked out munchkin. One or two sub-optimal feats aren't going to make a character "ineffective" or "monster food." However, if the players don't use tactics and teamwork, don't advance their characters to meet their role(s) in the party, and make poor decisions on their characters' actions, they will find the AP's extremely difficult.
I'd think my point is that the player - in this sort of game - wants their player to swing from ropes. Actually being good at it can be very much a secondary objective.
For myself and my group I will have to do some serious adaptations to fit the STAP to our style.