Alright, generally I'm the one that DMs for most of the campaigns for my small group of friends. However, we started reminiscing about past adventures last night and one of us brought up the idea of an all-thief campaign. We argued for a bit about what qualified as 'thiefy' enough and then one of my friends offered to DM.
Now, most of the group likes to power game a bit, so the DM eventually agreed to let us do gestalt but without access to prestige classes. This is most likely thanks to the Elven Swashbuckler/Champion of Corellon Lerethian with a holy elven courtblade.
Now, keep in mind, he said no prestige classes because they were 'to powerful'.
So in return for the loss of prestige classes we get an extra feat every level. Ok, that's not too bad. Also, we get 40 point-buy. Ok, that seems a bit much. Oh, and we also get to gestalt as THREE classes at once.
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Oh, and we have to take the lowest hit die of the three. We gain the abilities of THREE classes per level and have to take the lowest hit die. Oh...darn.
So, is it just me, or does my DM just not understand what kind of monsters he is creating?
Sounds like the kind of campaign you experiment with for a few adventures and then abandon, like the time we tried playing "Boot Hill." Not that that's a bad thing, but it sounds like the kind of thing your DM will regret when he's stuck making up all the adventures himself, because the rules are so far out of whack with the preprinted ones (I've been in that boat myself, btw).
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Hopefully you have some pretty experienced players. 3 classes and a bonus feat at every level -- that is a whole lot to keep track of right there. And getting the lowest of the hit die makes it feel like you have uber powered wusses. Just seems kind of odd.
Yeah, I'd just make a fighter/swashbuckler/dragon shaman. Rock the d10 hit dice all the way to the bank. You could switch out swashbuckler with paladin if you wanted to be a Gold or Silver Dragon Shaman, too. Giving feats every level kinda weakens the fighter class, though. Maybe swashbuckler/paladin/dragon shaman. Yeah, that's better.
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Yeah, I'd just make a fighter/swashbuckler/dragon shaman. Rock the d10 hit dice all the way to the bank. You could switch out swashbuckler with paladin if you wanted to be a Gold or Silver Dragon Shaman, too. Giving feats every level kinda weakens the fighter class, though. Maybe swashbuckler/paladin/dragon shaman. Yeah, that's better.
Warblade/Barbarian/...uh is there another d12 base class out there?
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Giving feats every level kinda weakens the fighter class, though.
Maybe. At some point it just gets a bit silly -- Think about a human fighter/ranger/swashbuckler. At 4th "level", the character has 1 feat for human, 2 feats for 1st and 3rd levels, 4 "bonus" feats, 3 bonus fighter feats and some bonus feats for ranger and swashbuckler. That makes 10 feats before the bonus feats for ranger and swashbuckler (weapon finesse, track, two weapon fighting, endurance). So by my calculation the character gets 14 feats by 4th level. That feels a little insane. I don't know if it "weakens" the fighter class, but it really feels like it quickly gets to a point where feats in general don't mean a whole lot.
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I don't know if it "weakens" the fighter class, but it really feels like it quickly gets to a point where feats in general don't mean a whole lot.
That's kind of what I was getting at. When feats in general don't mean a whole lot, a class that gets nothing but a whole slew of feats becomes somewhat weakened.
Think of it this way: A level 10 human fighter in the normal rules has 11 feats. A level 10 human barbarian has only 5, but has several class abilities as well. The fighter has about double (and then some) the feats of the barbarian.
If you do it the way the OP is saying, a level 10 fighter has 21 feats and the barbarian has 15. Now, instead of having more than double, you've only got 35% more and the barbarian still has all his cool abilities. The class's potence is diminished. That's all I'm saying.
The DM is creating a situation that will bite you all in the ass at some point.With such overpowered characters he will have a harder and harder time finding challenges for you and putting together adventures. He will have to make massive modifications to any published campaign and will probably have to modify some of the RAW to make this work. Standard Gestalt rules are complicated enough without a third class.
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The DM is creating a situation that will bite you all in the ass at some point.With such overpowered characters he will have a harder and harder time finding challenges for you and putting together adventures. He will have to make massive modifications to any published campaign and will probably have to modify some of the RAW to make this work. Standard Gestalt rules are complicated enough without a third class.
I agree 100%.
With that said, however, I may steal this idea for a one-shot game just to see how insane our characters can be!
I might create such a charater just to see what I get. I don't wat to do this with my group, not even as an one-shot because as mild power gamers they might want to do it again. I'll post the character here at some point.
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I might create such a charater just to see what I get. I don't wat to do this with my group, not even as an one-shot because as mild power gamers they might want to do it again. I'll post the character here at some point.
When you start getting player characters into level 10 or above, the characters very quickly get rather complicated. Even being as seasoned as I am, I would not even consider creating or running a character like this. I feel that it becomes so complicated that it ceases to be fun.
Giving feats every level kinda weakens the fighter class, though.
Not really a problem when Core weakens the fighter somewhat. But this even removes the normal 2 or 4 level dip for a few extra feats.
Your DM has created a monster. I would play either a
1 - Warmage/Beguiler/Rogue. Mmmm Skillpoints, and great spell selection, and INT synergy. Able to feint as a free action (beguiler 6) + Full Sneak Attack = The Awesome.
OR
2 - Wizard (or Sorc) / Cleric / Psion. The ability to basically cast any spell in the game is just two awesome. Imagine the raw number of high level spells you could punch out.
Either way, with that many feats I would definently be taking improved toughnesss if he is going to make you take the smallest Hit Dice.
Here's the concept I came up with:
Halfling Rogue/Swashbuckler/Illusionist 3
Feats: Weapon Finesse
Scribe Scroll
Improved Initiative
TWF
Improved TWF
Oversized TWF
TWF AoO
Combat Reflexes
(this is assuming two flaws are taken)
Lots of Skill Points
Two rapiers (keen)
spells (invisibility, charm person and such)
Int bonus on attacks
This character could use Invisibility to get the sneak attack, and then get to add their Int bonus to the damage, with a 15-20/x2 critical weapon in each hand. Ow.
Here's the concept I came up with:
Halfling Rogue/Swashbuckler/Illusionist 3
Feats: Weapon Finesse
Scribe Scroll
Improved Initiative
TWF
Improved TWF
Oversized TWF
TWF AoO
Combat Reflexes
(this is assuming two flaws are taken)
Lots of Skill Points
Two rapiers (keen)
spells (invisibility, charm person and such)
Int bonus on attacks
This character could use Invisibility to get the sneak attack, and then get to add their Int bonus to the damage, with a 15-20/x2 critical weapon in each hand. Ow.
If you are going with illusionist, I would think it worth while playing a beguiler instead.
Also, you can't yet qualify for Improved TWF, (BAB 6).
And why Oversized TWF? I assume to Dual Wield Rapiers? but I don't reckon the increase in damage (from a kukri) or threat range (from a short sword) is worth the feat.
I just thought, what about a Monk / Swordsage / Fighter (or other full BAB Paladin perhaps?)? Monk goodness, unarmed strike, decent skillpoints, and good BAB to back it up.
Yep, whatever characters you play are going to break this campaign wide open and make your DM cry.
I haven't thought it through too much, but...
Halfling Monk/Fighter/Rogue
1st - Eyes in the Back of your Head, Improved Toughness, Toughness, Stunning Fist (M)
2nd - Mobility, Dodge, Combat Reflexes (M)
3rd - Spring Attack, Toughness
4th - Weapon Focus, Weapon Specialization
5th - Toughness
6th - Power Attack, Toughness
+12 HP for Toughness, +6 for Improved Toughness, 18 HP on average (3).
Make sure you have at least a +2 CON Modifier and it's like rolling an 8 with no modifiers on a d10.
Not the most efficient build by any means, but you'll want to make sure that you have a high WIS and DEX for AC purposes. Liberal use of HP/AC enhancing Feats is also welcome.
Max your ranks in Use Magic Device and go for the Enlarge Person/Reduce Person along with buffing spells goes a long way. Movement Rate is enhanced to keep up with the longshanks.
Don't forget the +1 size modifiers to AC, bonuses to Saves (coupled with the Monk's great saves).
Reach for the Bull's Strength potion to counter the size penalties for the weapon size (or take a -2 with Monkey Grip).
Of course, I may have screwed something up along the way.
Yeah, my current build at the moment is a Changeling Rogue/Warlock/Totemist. At level 3 he can have a +25 bluff check. I might change from totemist to beguiler, though. I didn't know about that free-action feint.
Anyone know of any other races that may get a racial bonus to bluff? I like changelings, but I'm already playing one in Arctaris's Play by Post.
Anyone know of any other races that may get a racial bonus to bluff? I like changelings, but I'm already playing one in Arctaris's Play by Post.
I think I saw a writeup for a Doppleganger PC class, but have no idea where I saw it. I'm thinking a splat book from WotC.
So in return for the loss of prestige classes we get an extra feat every level. Ok, that's not too bad. Also, we get 40 point-buy. Ok, that seems a bit much. Oh, and we also get to gestalt as THREE classes at once.
...
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...
Oh, and we have to take the lowest hit die of the three. We gain the abilities of THREE classes per level and have to take the lowest hit die. Oh...darn.
Triple gestalt, but lowest hit die? This is madness!
This method can only create characters who have a ridiculous number of abilities and more feats than they can eat, but who are stupidly weak defensively. To mitigate this, players will be forced to clump their gestalt classes together by hit dice. In other words, you can justify a sorcerer/wizard/rogue or a cleric/druid/barbarian, but mixing d4s with d8s or d6s with d10s is out of the question.
Beguiler/Warmage/Dread Necromancer!
Man that sounds like fun.
binder/cleric/truenamer could be fun i think
Expert/Commoner/Adept
Then, when you're totally outshined by the other PC's, you can call them powergamers and mini-maxers.
That would be funny.
:)
And insist on building the character with either straight 3d6 rolls or 15 point point-buy. Cause, you know, a character with some major flaws is always the most fun and all that.
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And insist on building the character with either straight 3d6 rolls or 15 point point-buy. Cause, you know, a character with some major flaws is always the most fun and all that.Expert/Commoner/Adept
Then, when you're totally outshined by the other PC's, you can call them powergamers and mini-maxers.
That would be funny.
:)
...and don't forget to take the BAB of the adept, the hit die of the Commoner and the spell selection of the Expert.
'Cause challenge builds character!