Binders and the Tome of Magic

[Fizzban]

I have a few questions about Binders from the Tome of Magic.

1. What does everyone think of the Binder class.

2. Has anyone played the class?

3. What vestiges did you: use, like, dislike, found useful/useless?

4. I was thinking of taking a level of cleric or paladin then going Binder (I had an idea of being hunted by the church kind of thing) so multiclassing yes or no?

Thanks

Fizz

[Thammuz]

Fizzban wrote:

I have a few questions about Binders from the Tome of Magic.

1. What does everyone think of the Binder class.

2. Has anyone played the class?

3. What vestiges did you: use, like, dislike, found useful/useless?

4. I was thinking of taking a level of cleric or paladin then going Binder (I had an idea of being hunted by the church kind of thing) so multiclassing yes or no?

Thanks

Fizz

To answer:

1. I find it very exciting. The concept has a very "middle ages" feel to it, in making deals with extraplanar beings. Plus, the versatility is amazing.

2. I played a binder, who went into the "Knight of the Sacred Seal" Prestige Class (dedicated to Kas).

3. "Kas" from the Dragon magazine article provided some very useful abilities for combating undead. "Buer"'s healing gift, with the ability to heal 1hp each round, every round, lengthens the longevity of a party (always being able to become fully healed after battle, provided there is enough time between encounters). "Paimon" also provided some good combat abilities; "Amon" and "Naberius" are solid choices for a starting binder.

4. As with any other situation, whether to multiclass or not is up to you. With the concept you have (being hunted by the church), it would play into your character's history.

[ericthecleric]

1. The class is highly versatile, filling in the warrior or adventurer role in a party. It’s the best thing in the ToM.

2. I’m playing a Pal2/Binder2 in my STAP game, intending to go binder the rest of the way, and stick the Pact Augmentation abilities into attack bonus only (so that he’s on par with the warriors). He binds the spirits of saints (uses the same mechanics), but doesn’t lose any paladin abilities. It’s enjoyable. Incidentally, James Jacobs and James Sutter (?- another Paizo staff member anyway) also played binders in the “Erik Mona DMs Greyhawk” campaign journal.

3. I’ve used Aym so far- I like the fire aura and dwarven step abilities. When I get to 3rd-level binder, I want to get Malphas, primarily because he’s got a very useful scouting ability and the ability to turn invisible once every 5 rounds or so. After SWW ends, I’ll be DMing STAP for parts 4-7 so my PC will disappear, and return in time for the start of part 8. When he returns as a 15th-level PC (as a pal2/binder13 with the Improved Binding feat), I’m planning that he’ll have Eligor and Andromalius as bound spirits, then once he reaches level 17 (as Pal2/Binder15), switching Improved Binding for Power Attack (using the PH2 rules for changing feats). Once he gets the 14th binder level, I want him to bind Andromalius, Eligor, and Malphas, so he’ll be a good rogue/warrior-type build.

4. Regarding multiclassing, you’ll see that I’ve taken 2 paladin levels. James Jacobs’ PC is a multiclassed binder/cleric. I’d only multiclass in cleric or paladin if you don’t have to lose any class abilities (I really hate that flavor text; binders are no better or worse alignment wise than any other class).

[Keno]

Hmm, I'm going to have to go back and look over the binder. The more I hear about it, the more I like the sound of it.

[AWED]

I think the binder class is great.Don't have my book with me,but Paimon is my favorite one and Amon i hate. I haven't gotten a chance to play as one:(. That would be a good idea and good RP too. go for it.

AWED

[Saern]

I really like the binder concept, but have a mental block in my mind against them for some reason. Have no idea why and wish it was gone. Maybe it's that wierd picture of the horned dwarf; something about that is just wrong! :)

Practically, I think binders are great. They're so versatile; yet, they don't suffer from eternally having to split their abilities in many directions. Rather, they specialize in a field and can change that specialization. It's very good.

As far as multiclassing with paladin, I like the concept. I'd go 2 or 3 levels in the class, however, for the other various special abilities (divine grace, lay on hands, perhaps even divine health if you want). Taking just 1 level of paladin only gives you a once-per-day attack to which you add your Charisma bonus and 1 whole damage. Oh, and detect evil, which isn't bad, but you can get a lot better. That just seems to make a lot more sense. Unless, of course, it really messes with your concept/story.

[Tequila Sunrise]

I love the binder concept, which fits perfectly with the gothic game that I am planning. I love the vestige flavor text and only have two problems with vestige mechanics:

There are only 8 vestige levels. Honestly, it's as if the designers roll a dice every time a new magic class is created to determine how many spell/vestige/whatever levels it has. If we're going to use an arbitrary number of levels for magic, let's at least stay consistent, shall we? This problem is fixed easily enough; I just changed the vestige level progression to match the wizard's spell level progression.

The vestige abilities themselves are often...just wacky. Don't get me wrong, I love how they all fit with the flavor text. But for example Leraje gets a bonus to Hide, which would allow a binder to fill the 'sneaky' role in the party, except that Leraje doesn't grant a bonus to Move Silently! C'mon folks, this is basic strategy here. Why would the designer create a vestige to improve a binder's stealth, but neglect Move Silently? This problem takes a bit more effort to solve; I'm currently creating my own vestiges that fit with the campaign and which grant more consistent abilities.

Overall, though, binders get one and a half thumbs up for creativity and versatility.

[Keno]

Saern wrote:

As far as multiclassing with paladin, I like the concept. I'd go 2 or 3 levels in the class, however, for the other various special abilities (divine grace, lay on hands, perhaps even divine health if you want).

Strictly speaking, you lose divine grace if you multi-class a paladin into a binder, according to the side bar on page 14.

[ericthecleric]

Keno, that's an optional rule- and even if it is used, it's only for those who's deities are opposed to binding. I imagine most gods would be indifferent.

[Keno]

Ah, that's what I get for hurriedly skimming over the book at the book store at lunch. And then buying it, of course.

Any other books you guys want to talk me into buying?

[ericthecleric]

Magic of Incarnum and Tome of Battle are really interesting. Some people think the ToB classes are overpowered; and people seem to either love or hate MoI. Both the books introduce new concepts, but the thing about them is that you can't really tell at a glance how good they are or whether you'd like them/want to use the stuff in your game. If you can, see if you can borrow them before buying, or see if the shopkeeper would led you read the fundamentals in the shop.

[Thraxus]

I like both MI and ToM. I have currently adapted the Binder for my D20 Modern game that is about to start up. With a few changes to the vestiges, the class fills the shaman/spirit speaker role well.

[Fizzban]

I also noticed that it seems you need more equipment, since you can gain profs. with some vestiges. Ex. Well today I'm going to bind so and so, I guess I'll use the waraxe and set aside the morningstar. Well I can use medium armor. I think I'll put on the breastplate for this adventure.

Fizz

[Saern]

Fizzban wrote:

I also noticed that it seems you need more equipment, since you can gain profs. with some vestiges. Ex. Well today I'm going to bind so and so, I guess I'll use the waraxe and set aside the morningstar. Well I can use medium armor. I think I'll put on the breastplate for this adventure.

Fizz

Which, while it can be expensive, is one of the fun things about them- you get to try out so many different things. That extends beyond gear, too, of course. Sometimes you have a character concept that you're curious about, but when you get to playing it you find that it wasn't what you expected, or it was just such a novelty thing that it wears off fast and then you're uninterested. There's virtually no burn out on a binder. Tired of what you've been doing? Try something new!

Yet, the real beauty is that it doesn't overlap with a bard at all (rather, the two would actually complement each other). I dislike when a supplemental class replaces the need/role of a core class. However, bards are good at providing moderate duration buffs and boosts to the rest of the party, while binders specialize in adapting to fit whatever role they're needed in. It's an interesting dynamic.

[Bill Lumberg]

I am an enthusiat about binders. They can fill a number of different roles for the party but the player does not have to get stuck with the concept, as Saern said.

They seem to be one of the better balanced classes, if a bit weak at low levels. Their flavor is great as well. A binder can fall under the influence of a vestige and be affected by it without losing control of his will.

Good low level vestiges are;
Aym- defensive fire aura and double damage to constructs and objects

Naberius- Command spell, Disguise Self and good social skills

Dahlver-nar- vocal attack that can Daze multiple targets, AC bonus, share 1/2 damage suffered with unwilling victim

Malphas- invisibility, sneak attack, bird familiar that whose eyes you can see through).

Amon seems useful only at higher levels. His breath weapon is useable only once per five rounds. He would be good in combination with another vestige when the binder can have two or more at once. I can't see much use for Leraje.

[Keno]

ericthecleric wrote:

Magic of Incarnum and Tome of Battle are really interesting. Some people think the ToB classes are overpowered; and people seem to either love or hate MoI. Both the books introduce new concepts, but the thing about them is that you can't really tell at a glance how good they are or whether you'd like them/want to use the stuff in your game. If you can, see if you can borrow them before buying, or see if the shopkeeper would led you read the fundamentals in the shop.

I picked up Magic of Incarnum back in December or January when Amazon had it for $7. I wasn't too awfully impressed but then again, I haven't had a chance to use any of the classes from that yet. And just glancing through it, I realize that there were some things I wanted to try out....

[Napalm Moose]

things i like about binders is that they become immune to fear, negative levels, and energy drain.

[Ben Harrop]

I am playing a gold dwarf binder in a Forgotten Realms campaign. LOVE IT!! One of the most unigue, flavorful, and well-balanced classes that I've seen in years.

[BluePigeon]

Fizzban wrote:

I have a few questions about Binders from the Tome of Magic.

2. Has anyone played the class?

4. I was thinking of taking a level of cleric or paladin then going Binder (I had an idea of being hunted by the church kind of thing) so multiclassing yes or no?

Thanks

Fizz

I'd say go for it. The Binder easily has become my favorite class in the five or six so years.

I also have four vetiges that can be found here.

[BluePigeon]

And five new vestiges can be found here.