Okay... here's the line-up.
An Elven 5th lvl Favored Soul with a low strength but a high dexterity (archer-ish, rather than beat-em-ish)
A Gnomish 3rd lvl Swashbuckler/2nd lvl Bard with a spiked chain. (and no armor, because he doesn't like the hit to skill checks or the arcane spell failure)
A Brass-Dragonblooded Human 4th lvl Sorcerer with Draconic Heritage, Draconic Breath (fire), and Draconic Claws.
A Human 5th lvl Rogue with a MW rapier. (Very high move silently and hide.)
Assume that everyone's got pretty much full hit points. Assume the Favored Soul & Sorcerer are down by half of their spells.
How likely would you estimate it is they can beat Tongue-Eater?
And... do you think I need to pull him back a bit or adjust him, power-wise? He seems like a very tough CR 5 (pluss the baboons)... and I'm anxious about his uncanny dodge taking the rogue's sneak attack away. Been considering replacing a level or few of barbarian with fighter, so they can get their flank going.
Then again, they do have at last one use of fire breath sacking a 2nd level spell (4d6), and that necklace of fireballs they got from Drakthar's lair.
<snip>
How likely would you estimate it is they can beat Tongue-Eater?
And... do you think I need to pull him back a bit or adjust him, power-wise? He seems like a very tough CR 5 (pluss the baboons)... and I'm anxious about his uncanny dodge taking the rogue's sneak attack away. Been considering replacing a level or few of barbarian with fighter, so they can get their flank going.
Then again, they do have at last one use of fire breath sacking a 2nd level spell (4d6), and that necklace of fireballs they got from Drakthar's lair.
I haven't gotten quite this far in the Adventure Path yet, but this is what comes to my mind:
First of all, Uncanny Dodge is the least of your party's worries. That said, remember that a rogue can still sneak attack a foe with Uncanny Dodge if he flanks the foe - Uncanny Dodge just prevents said foe from losing his Dex bonus if flat-footed or facing an enemy he can't see. Improved Uncanny Dodge grants the ability to not be sneak attacked if flanked, and Tongue-Eater doesn't have that.
Having said that, looking at your party lineup, I suspect that due to the lack of a solid, dedicated tank, Tongue-Eater will carve through your Rogue and Swashbuckler tandem easily unless they get very lucky, have a high AC, or have a good plan. Furthermore, unless your Rogue and/or Swashbuckler has a silver weapon, they will basically be relegated to a role of trying to delay Tongue-Eater while the spellcasters do their thing. What spells do they have, out of curiosity? Even with a good selection, there's a good chance that Tongue-Eater will be able to all but ignore them to go after the squishies trying to burn him from the back.
That said, this is supposed to be a difficult fight. You MAY want to hold off on sending in simian reinforcements until they've got him on the ropes, or possibly take away one of Tongue-Eater's potions. But I wouldn't weaken him any further than that.
Eric "Critic of the Dawn"
Based on the way it is written, it is QUITE a tough fight, as there are 2 waves of re-inforcements (one from the room above (Rm 38) and one from the basement (Rm 39)) if they hear the sounds of battle. So in addition to the original Tongue-Eater and the 3 baboons, 5 thugs and 3 Alleybashers will be jumping into the fray.
This creates a possible CR5+3x1+8x2 fight (EL 9? encounter).
Nasty fight. Based on the deaths thread, things can get quite bad if the group comes through the kitchen first without being able to scout ahead. Silence spells are almost critical if you can't finish off each wave quickly.
I think Tongue Eater's Uncanny Dodge is secondary to overwhelming number of opponents.
Spell selection:
----
Favored Soul:
0st/ ~~~ Cure Minor Wounds, Detect Poison, Detect Magic, Create Water, Mending, Light
1st/ ~~~ Cure Light Wounds, Shield of Faith, Cause Fear, Protection from Evil, Sanctuary
2nd/~~~ Sound Burst, Hold Person, Cure Moderate Wounds
Sorcerer:
0~ Resistance, Detect Magic, Read Magic, Daze, Message, Acid Splash
1~ Charm Person, Lesser Orb of Fire, Mage Armor
2~ Wall of Gloom
Also, can Sack a spell for a cone-breath weapon of 2d6 fire damage per spell level.
Bard
0- Prestidigitation, Dancing Lights, Message, Ghost Sound,
1- Cure Light Wounds, Disguise Self
If they get lucky, Charm Person or Hold Person could end the fight really quickly. Wall of Gloom could be handy too, I think.
----
Uncanny Dodge:
----
And thanks for catching me on that Uncanny Dodge bit, that was a rookie mistake on me, I should've remembered that.
----
Reinforcements:
----
And yeah... I am a bit worried about re-enforcements, because though attentive bad guys would logically show up where their allies need help... it can rapidly get nasty. However, I have some control over the reenforcements and when/if they get there. I don't -have- to swarm my PCs... as long as I think up a good enough IC reason not to do (like the drunk thugs fell asleep on the job.)
----
To Adjust down or not to adjust
----
I know my PCs aren't stringently optimized (and their players don't completely want them to be,) and not all the players are precisely tactically minded, but they are a lot of fun and good at coming up with great characters and roleplaying them well... and I shouldn't be charging into an adventure path with about half to two-thirds the reccomended party members (I have 3-4) and a non-standard party without being ready to change up and/or level down some things.
Edit: Oh, they do have two silver weapons. A silver rapier and a silver enchanted dagger left over from preparing for and confronting Drakthar
My guys were having a tough time with TE too, but they showed the value of that most survival-related tactic: the tactical retreat.
In the case of TE, they engaged him in the small park area in the middle of the LM, where he took the chance to use his potion of Enlarge. Once it became obvious that the party was getting nowhere and that TE was going to kill them all if they didn't retreat, they did so.
They ran back into the kitchen, where they dealt with some bad guys, but I ruled that TE wouldn't be able to get through the door until the Enlarge wore off, at which point his Rage had also ended, leaving him winded and then the wizard hit him with a Ray of Enfeeblement. After that, the party rallied, surrounded TE and beat the heck out of a VERY unlucky monkey.
As a side-note, the wizard is my most experienced player and is very tactically minded. He is playing a buff/debuff necromancer, which is both highly effective and extremely irritating. He's proving to me that Evocation is a valid opposition school.
My guys were having a tough time with TE too, but they showed the value of that most survival-related tactic: the tactical retreat.
In the case of TE, they engaged him in the small park area in the middle of the LM, where he took the chance to use his potion of Enlarge. Once it became obvious that the party was getting nowhere and that TE was going to kill them all if they didn't retreat, they did so.
They ran back into the kitchen, where they dealt with some bad guys, but I ruled that TE wouldn't be able to get through the door until the Enlarge wore off, at which point his Rage had also ended, leaving him winded and then the wizard hit him with a Ray of Enfeeblement. After that, the party rallied, surrounded TE and beat the heck out of a VERY unlucky monkey.
Isn't the garden open-aired? If so, I would have had Tongue-eater climb up the side of the building (with his baboon climby coolness,) and try to come in through the double-doors that lead into the kitchen from the outside. Would've been exciting, I think. On the oher hand, you did let the characters take advantage of tactical thinking, which was good too.
My group embarrassed Tongueater, which is interesting because the 4th level cleric of Pelor and the 4th level ranger were occupied by baboons, so it was all done by the 4th level dwarven soul knife (vow of poverty) and a 5th level elven rogue. They absolutely smoked Tongueater, I was really miffed.
I had 2 groups hit him.
1st group took out the guys in the front room the right to the kitchen.
Sadly for me the Wizard was 5th level.
rd1: Fireball. Toungeater Drinks a potion of blur
rd2: Toungeater Drinks a potion of cure
rd3: basement reinforcements arrive. fireball. Toungeater Drinks a potion of cure.
rd4: Toungeater Drinks a potion of cure.
rd5: upstairs reinforcements arrive. fireball. Toungeater is charcoal along with almost everyone in the inn.
The 2nd group had a much harder time. I kept them a 4th level but the Wizard is multiclass and the fighter has low strength. They couldn't hurt Toungeater and the Thugs couldn't beat there armor. The fight lasted 30 rounds and they only took him down because I took away his cure potions.
===
The way I run it is Toungeater sends the Baboons at the party while he drinks potions and buffs up. With liberal use of AE from the sorcerer they should be fine and take him down quickly. Unfortunately without a high AC front man he will destroy the 1st person he comes to. They have enough healing to compensate but they will have to be quick.
make sure the Favored Soul knows about the spell Vigor(lesser)
My group got a luck Hold Person off in the first round, then took him out with a coup de grace. He never even really got a chance to attack.
Even so, the waves of reinforcements made it a decent fight. The party wasn't worried or anything, but I can imagine that if the dice had gone another way and TE had been part of it, things would have been very different.
One thing i haven't heard anyone mention is the Control Shape skill.
If i understand the rules correctly, old Tongueater will be making checks to resist involuntary change each time he loses 1/4 of his total hit points. If he fails this (DC 25) check, he'll turn into a baboon and his armor will probably fall off, not to mention the fact that he probably can't swing his sword anymore.
Tongueater may then attempt to return to hybrid form, pick up his weapon and continue his assualt unarmored, but if he fails the (DC 15) check, he must remain in animal form until the next dawn.
The Control Shape rules are presented in the back of the MM, easily missed. They are a bit confusing as well, so i suppose i could be wrong about how they might impact Tongueater.
My players were getting destroyed by Tongueater until he failed his check and turned into a baboon. As a monkey with big teeth, he was a more manageable opponent.
One thing i haven't heard anyone mention is the Control Shape skill.
If i understand the rules correctly, old Tongueater will be making checks to resist involuntary change each time he loses 1/4 of his total hit points. If he fails this (DC 25) check, he'll turn into a baboon and his armor will probably fall off, not to mention the fact that he probably can't swing his sword anymore.
Tongueater may then attempt to return to hybrid form, pick up his weapon and continue his assualt unarmored, but if he fails the (DC 15) check, he must remain in animal form until the next dawn.
The Control Shape rules are presented in the back of the MM, easily missed. They are a bit confusing as well, so i suppose i could be wrong about how they might impact Tongueater.
My players were getting destroyed by Tongueater until he failed his check and turned into a baboon. As a monkey with big teeth, he was a more manageable opponent.
I'm not sure whether Tongue-Eater is an Afflicted or a Natural lycanthrope. However, either way he is aware of his lycanthropic nature. Per the SRD, he is no longer in danger of losing control:
"A character with awareness of his condition retains his identity and does not lose control of his actions if he changes."
The applicable text is in the SRD under Lycanthropy As An Affliction.
I'm not sure whether Tongue-Eater is an Afflicted or a Natural lycanthrope. However, either way he is aware of his lycanthropic nature. Per the SRD, he is no longer in danger of losing control:
"A character with awareness of his condition retains his identity and does not lose control of his actions if he changes."
The "losing control" that you quoted above doesn't refer to the lycanthrope shifting form, it has to do with his ability to maintain control of his actions when a change occurs.
Tongueater is an afflicted lycanthrope, and long past the stage where he changes and wakes up the next day wondering where his clothes are and why there's blood all over his chin and hands. Being aware of his condition means that he's always in control of his actions, but it doesn't stop his lycanthropic nature from getting the best of him and causing him to change involuntarily under certain conditions.
Like i mentioned earlier, the rules on this topic are a bit confusing, mostly because they are spread out in different places in the MM. It took me several reads, flipping back and forth in the MM to reach my understanding.
The third paragraph in the Lycanthropy As An Affliction section (MM p178) explains the involuntary change. Just after that is the Changing Form subsection, which goes into detail about weapons and armor during a change and how long the lycanthrope is stuck in a form. Cross reference all that with the Control Shape skill rules (MM p303) and hopefully you'll see where i'm coming from.
So here's what happened with my group and Tongue-Eater.
I think I went too easy on them, but it was still pretty memorable and we almost lost a PC from it. We had an extra player that night, a temp PC played by an old friend of mine just here for the weekend. A tank-fighter/barbarian.
My group came in through the garden courtyard, and the Gnome Swashbuckler-Bard, entranced by the beautifully crafted monkey fountains, wandered over to investigate. His companions noticed a few of the baboons creeping up on him, and tried to warn him... but it was too late.
He looked up, saw a big ol' monkey, and smiled. It bared its tusks and snarl-howled at him. He stopped smiling.
The monkeys won initiative, and three of them mauled him down to single digit hit points. Baboons are cool.
Everyone rallied & healed the gnome, and started seriously destroying the simians. Then Tongue-eater showed up with his two hench-monkeys from the kitchen. In retrospect, I should have had Tongue-Eater drink more of his potions before storming into battle, but I figured a raging were-baboon'd be bad enough. He drank magic-fang and... didn't have time to drink more before the fight.
The human fighter/barbarian did enough damage to be compeditive against Tongue-Eater's damage reduction. But it was the elf favored soul what saved the day.
The gnome, being incredibly foolish and unbelievably lucky, disarmed Tongueater with his spiked chain. (Tongue-Eater rolled a 1 on his AoO, and failed his reflex save.) The firebreathing dragon-blood sorcerer stepped up and breathed fire in Tongue-Eater's face... then learned a sorcerer should /never/ get that close to a battle-beast type, when Tongue-Eater took a five foot step and claw/clawed him into negative hit points.
At that point, Tongue Eater looked around the garden battlefield, and saw that his baboons were all dead or dying. He knew he was losing, and he did a smart bad-guy thing that doesn't seem to happen a lot in D&D. He took a hostage. Grabbing the fallen sorcerer, be put him in a head-lock and used him as a human shield, snarling, "Stay back, or he dies." When asked what he wanted them to do, he started backing toward the exit and growled, "I'm getting out of here."
The Favored Soul elf gambled he could get off a Hold Person spell on Tongue-Eater, and I ruled that if Tongue-Eater failed his save, he'd be parylysed, but if he succeeded, he'd realize he was being cast upon and snap the helpless adventurer's neck.
He failed his save. In a pretty dramatic moment, he almost... almost wrenched the caster's head off before freezing solid. The human rogue came up, taunted him, "Did the big bad monkey choose the wrong hostage?" (because no one in the party ICly trusts the sorcerer, for good reason. LE alignment.) and Coup-de-grace'd Tongue-Eater on the spot... with a critical hit-plus sneak-attack-damage... spearing his rapier through the baboon-orc's mouth and pinning his brain-pan to the ground.
It was pretty satisfying overall.
A lot of difference having a tank-fighter makes, it turns out... but not as much as a divine caster with Hold Person.
Edit: Sorry, misremembered because the dragon-sorcerer breathed fire twice, once against the baboons, and again against Tongue-Eater and the baboons. The gnome never used his fireball beads.
A Gnomish 3rd lvl Swashbuckler/2nd lvl Bard with a spiked chain. (and no armor, because he doesn't like the hit to skill checks or the arcane spell failure)
I'll admit, I didn't read the rest of the posts beyond the original one. It's also probably a bit too late as well. However, Bards don't have an Arcane Spell Failure when wearing light armor (no shield).
If I were him, I'd suck it up and wear a Masterwork Chain Shirt. Only -1 Armor Check Penalty and NO Spell Failure roll required. Even a MW Studded Leather is better (no ACP)! Unless his AC bonus is greater than +8, he's better off with the Armor.
If he's worried about weight, drop the pack (a move equivelant action at the worst).
Regardless, Tounge-Eater looks like one tough hombre. I can't wait to run SCAP : )
I'll admit, I didn't read the rest of the posts beyond the original one. It's also probably a bit too late as well. However, Bards don't have an Arcane Spell Failure when wearing light armor (no shield).
If I were him, I'd suck it up and wear a Masterwork Chain Shirt. Only -1 Armor Check Penalty and NO Spell Failure roll required. Even a MW Studded Leather is better (no ACP)! Unless his AC bonus is greater than +8, he's better off with the Armor.
*pulls out the player's pandbook and skims...*
Dadadaddaddaddadaa.... By Jove, you're right! Thank you! I can't wait to tell the Bard so he can keep his current armor on! (and get better armor when he gets the chance!)
---
Oh, and my apologies. I misremembered... the bard never got a chance to toss the fireball bead... I was mixing that up with the sorcerer's fire-breathing stunt, which happened twice in combat... once against the baboons, and another time against Tongue-Eater and the baboons..
"Saving other Player's characters, one Gnome at a time"
Also, as I know I've shagged myself on it, Magical armor is Masterwork. Don't forget that when looking at that nice armor : )