my wife is putting together a ranged specialized fighter (dm wont allow the scout :( in fact core 3 books only) anyway could someone please clarify the stacking of many shot and rapid shot. at 9th lvl can she really fire 6 arrows with three attack rolls simply by taking a -6 to all attacks i know they wont all hit but thats 6d6 potential. make the bow flaming and its 12d6. clarity please...
almost forgot. she also wanted me to ask if anyone has suggestions on how to increase the attack bonus to offset the -6
Just to make sure we are on teh same page :)
Rapid Shot [General]
Prerequisites
Dex 13, Point Blank Shot.
Benefit
You can get one extra attack per round with a ranged weapon. The attack is at your highest base attack bonus, but each attack you make in that round (the extra one and the normal ones) takes a -2 penalty. You must use the full attack action to use this feat.
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Manyshot [General]
Prerequisites
Dex 17, Point Blank Shot, Rapid Shot, base attack bonus +6
Benefit
As a standard action, you may fire two arrows at a single opponent within 30 feet. Both arrows use the same attack roll (with a -4 penalty) to determine success and deal damage normally (but see Special).
For every five points of base attack bonus you have above +6, you may add one additional arrow to this attack, to a maximum of four arrows at a base attack bonus of +16. However, each arrow after the second adds a cumulative -2 penalty on the attack roll (for a total penalty of -6 for three arrows and -8 for four).
Damage reduction and other resistances apply separately against each arrow fired.
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They don't stack. with Rapid Shot @ 9th level you can make 3 attacks, 2 @ +7, 1@+2 (BAB only, dunno your dex, feats, etc) as a FULL ATTACK, ie you can't move more than 5' in the round.
Or
You can use Manyshot to fire 2 arrows @ +5 BAB, but are able to make a move action, though not a double move. And only inside 30'.
Clear? To increase attack bonus, pump your dex, take weapon focus, gloves of dex, I'm sure someone smarter than me will have more :)
These two feats preclude each other.
Rapid Shot can only be used as part of a full round attack while Manyshot is a standard action.
Edit - dang to slow.
Clear? To increase attack bonus, pump your dex, take weapon focus, gloves of dex, I'm sure someone smarter than me will have more :)
Bracers of Archery are a steal.
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my wife is putting together a ranged specialized fighter (dm wont allow the scout :( in fact core 3 books only) anyway could someone please clarify the stacking of many shot and rapid shot. at 9th lvl can she really fire 6 arrows with three attack rolls simply by taking a -6 to all attacks i know they wont all hit but thats 6d6 potential. make the bow flaming and its 12d6. clarity please...
I don't allow Manyshot, as (for me) it breaks the willing suspension of disbelief. The bow is a "real" weapon and Manyshot smacks more of a tall tale than epic (or even low) fantasy.
(Sorry, I know that doesn't help, but ....)
Tom
Next time I run into an elf, I'll let him know this messes with the realism of your game ;)
RPG Superstar 2013 Top 32
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Manyshot seems perfect for Scouts. Since they need to constantly move to benefit from Skirmish, this allows them to fire off the extra arrows that they would otherwise not be able to with little drawback. Even though Skirmish damage won't apply to each arrow fired (and the additional arrows cannot score critical hits), the 'main' arrow deals Skirmish damage and scores criticals normally. The only real downside is that you have to stay within 30 feet of your target, but even that shouldn't be such a big deal for the typical Scout.
Neat. I never really thought of this combo before! I'll have to recommend it for my wife's Scout in my PbP game!
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These two feats preclude each other.
Rapid Shot can only be used as part of a full round attack while Manyshot is a standard action.
Edit - dang to slow.
Hhhmm... I didn't get that completely.
A standard bow attack is a standard action.
Many Shot bow attack is a standard action, too.
Rapid shot is a full round action.
So it should be possible to apply rapid shot to a normal attack as well as to a many shot attack, shouldn't it?
Greetings,
Günther
If you're doing this with the 3 core only, start out with Point Blank Shot and Precise Shot ('cause friendly fire isn't friendly). Take Rapid Shot and Manyshot, but remember you can't combine the two. Rapid Shot is usable only as part of the full attack action, so you're getting the same benefit as a ranger with the Two-Weapon Fighting Feat (i.e. one extra attack). Manyshot allows you basically to stick and move when you use it, by giving you effectively all the attacks of a full attack action in the space of a standard action (albeit with penalties) and still permitting movement. Your wife might also want Weapon Focus, Weapon Specialization, Greater versions of both, Shot on the Run, Far Shot, and Improved Critical. Oh, and a composite longbow, masterwork and mighty at that. If she's a fighter, that'll keep her busy for a bit. If she's a ranger, she'll have to forgo the Weapon Specialization route, of course.
I think that sums it up. Someone else can start working on the list of magic items you'll need.
Don't forget Shot on the Run (you'll need Dodge and Mobility), which lets you split your movement. With this feat, you can move 15 ft to get within 30 ft (for Point Blank Shot and Manyshot to be effective), shoot, and then move another 15 ft to get farther away (so the tanks can't charge you).
I once worked out a core rules only ranged attack specialist (I'll see if I can dig out the level progression). It ended up being Human Ranger 12/Fighter 8. I do remember that the ranger's combat style was Two-Weapon Fighting, with all the other feat choices going to ranged combat. If you want to keep things simpler, go Ranger 6/Fighter 14 with combat style in ranged attacks and take Power Attack, Spring Attack, and fight with a greatsword in melee. Remember that rangers can use wands of cure light wounds and barkskin, so they can act as backup healers and help buff.
In either case, a good start would be:
Ranger 1- Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Track
Fighter 1- Weapon Focus (Composite Longbow)
Ranger 2- Combat Style (Rapid Shot or Two-Weapon Fighting), Dodge
Fighter 2- Mobility
Ranger 3- Endurance
Fighter 3- Shot on the Run
Ranger 4- Animal Companion and Spells (with a 12+ Wis; entangle and longstrider are good choices)
Fighter 4- Weapon Specialization (Composite Longbow)
If wilderness encounters are a significant part of the campaign, then Mounted Combat and Mounted Archery may be worth picking up, also.
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Still wondering why rapid shot and many shot can't be used in the same round:
a) Can't they be combined because they aren't permitted to stack (similar to similar magic item effects which shouldn't stack)?
b) Or can't they be combined because you can't do another standard action if you already spent a full round action?
Thanks for your explanation,
Günther
Still wondering why rapid shot and many shot can't be used in the same round:
b) Or can't they be combined because you can't do another standard action if you already spent a full round action?
You can't combine a standard action and a full-round action. Rapid Shot lets you make one extra ranged attack as part of a full attack action. Many Shot lets you fire two (or more) arrows at the same target, using the same attack roll, as a standard action.
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You can't combine a standard action and a full-round action.
Thanks. Then I finally got it.
And bad news that everyone in my group so far was quite rules dumb about this question. The elven bow specialist in my group is up for some bad news which will reduce his fire power somewhat...Greetings,
Günther
You can't combine a standard action and a full-round action.
Thanks. Then I finally got it.
And bad news that everyone in my group so far was quite rules dumb about this question. The elven bow specialist in my group is up for some bad news which will reduce his fire power somewhat...Greetings,
Günther
You think that's bad? For the first 6 months of my group's gaming career, we thought that Many Shot could apply to normal attacks, i.e., every attack you made with a bow could shoot multiple arrows. So, the ranger was shooting about 8 flaming arrows a round and doing about 50 damage on average.
Further, for some reason we thought the 1.5 x Str bonus applied to attack as well as damage. We ran under that presumption for close to a year and a half.
That was dumb! Rules must always be examined carefully. :)
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It looks like this query has been answered pretty thoroughly, so I'll just touch on the last question: how to offset attack roll penalties.
As a fighter, the character can take Weapon Focus and Greater Weapon Focus for her ranged weapon. Bracers of Archery are also something to consider. If you don't get Gloves of Dexterity, then some Cat's Grace potions might do.
Manyshot seems perfect for Scouts. Since they need to constantly move to benefit from Skirmish, this allows them to fire off the extra arrows that they would otherwise not be able to with little drawback. Even though Skirmish damage won't apply to each arrow fired (and the additional arrows cannot score critical hits), the 'main' arrow deals Skirmish damage and scores criticals normally. The only real downside is that you have to stay within 30 feet of your target, but even that shouldn't be such a big deal for the typical Scout.
Neat. I never really thought of this combo before! I'll have to recommend it for my wife's Scout in my PbP game!
Even better when you add on Greater Manyshot from the Exbanded Psionics Handbook (and also in the SRD), which allows Precision Damage (ie Skirmish) to apply to each arrow. Why it is in the XPH I don't know, but it is.
GREATER MANYSHOT [GENERAL]
You are skilled at firing many arrows at once, even at different opponents.Prerequisites: Dex 17, Manyshot, Point Blank Shot, Rapid Shot, base attack bonus +6.
Benefit: When you use the Manyshot feat, you can fire each arrow at a different target instead of firing all of them at the same target. You make a separate attack roll for each arrow, regardless of whether you fire them at separate targets or the same target. Your precision-based damage applies to each arrow fired, and, if you score a critical hit with more than one of the arrows, each critical hit deals critical damage.
Special: A fighter may select this feat as one of his fighter bonus feats.
Make that Triple Post. Man, what is going wrong??
Double Post
my wife is putting together a ranged specialized fighter (dm wont allow the scout :( in fact core 3 books only) anyway could someone please clarify the stacking of many shot and rapid shot. at 9th lvl can she really fire 6 arrows with three attack rolls simply by taking a -6 to all attacks i know they wont all hit but thats 6d6 potential. make the bow flaming and its 12d6. clarity please...
As for a build, you really have two options.
1. Go with Rogue for the extra d6s from Sneak Attack (although it can be hard to set it up after the surprise / opening round)
2. Go with Fighter / Ranger and pump Strength. I know that it feels like you should pump DEX, but when you get a Composite Longbow, you can add your STR to damage, which, if you pump your strength can be some serious damage. I would go with mostly (or even all) Ranger, as the skill points and other goodies are too hard to pass up. I would go with Wood Elf for Race (the +2 STR is too good to pass up), and take Point Blank Shot (1st), Precise Shot (3rd), and Greater Manyshot (6th) (I know it is XPH, but it is in the SRD, so is pretty close to core), and then take Power Attack so you can dish the hurt with a Greatsword if you do get caught in melee.
Since you are Core only, there is really no reason at all to go fighter, as you lose the biggest draw, of Ranged Weapon Mastery, Weapon Spec etc just aren't worth it compared to the goodness that is ranger, especially Hide in Plain Sight.
I don't allow Manyshot, as (for me) it breaks the willing suspension of disbelief. The bow is a "real" weapon and Manyshot smacks more of a tall tale than epic (or even low) fantasy.
(Sorry, I know that doesn't help, but ....)
Tom
Now THIS is one of my pet hates.
It is alright for the wizard to bend the very fabric of time and space WITH HIS MIND, for the Cleric to call down divine power DIRECT FROM HIS GOD, and the Druid to Wildshape into a MASSIVE BEAR AND EAT PEOPLE. But the poor Ranger / Fighter can't be so good that he can shoot three arrows with the one draw because that is "unrealistic"
Seriously, why is realism only necessary for the melee guys? The pre-reqs for Manyshot are BAB +6, we are talking about the BEST archers in the WORLD here, surely this is exactly the sort fo feat they SHOULD be capable of. Or do you subscribe to WotC's (unstated?) view of "You're a Fighter, you don't get cool stuff"?
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I don't allow Manyshot, as (for me) it breaks the willing suspension of disbelief. The bow is a "real" weapon and Manyshot smacks more of a tall tale than epic (or even low) fantasy.
(Sorry, I know that doesn't help, but ....)
Tom
I've actually fired four arrows off a bow on a single shot and hit a target at 50' away with all four, and I'm a so-so archer. I doubt I could do it if someone was charging me with a sword, but I'm not Legolas.
It's remarkable how sometimes what seems unrealistic is actually well within the realm of possibility.
If you're doing this with the 3 core only, start out with Point Blank Shot and Precise Shot ('cause friendly fire isn't friendly). Take Rapid Shot and Manyshot, but remember you can't combine the two. Rapid Shot is usable only as part of the full attack action, so you're getting the same benefit as a ranger with the Two-Weapon Fighting Feat (i.e. one extra attack). Manyshot allows you basically to stick and move when you use it, by giving you effectively all the attacks of a full attack action in the space of a standard action (albeit with penalties) and still permitting movement. Your wife might also want Weapon Focus, Weapon Specialization, Greater versions of both, Shot on the Run, Far Shot, and Improved Critical. Oh, and a composite longbow, masterwork and mighty at that. If she's a fighter, that'll keep her busy for a bit. If she's a ranger, she'll have to forgo the Weapon Specialization route, of course.
I think that sums it up. Someone else can start working on the list of magic items you'll need.
im not looking at her sheet but im pretty sure thats exactally what she has (that why i hate core 3. no room for creativity, just play it as its writen)
Hhhmm... I didn't get that completely.A standard bow attack is a standard action.
Many Shot bow attack is a standard action, too.
Rapid shot is a full round action.So it should be possible to apply rapid shot to a normal attack as well as to a many shot attack, shouldn't it?
Greetings,
Günther
thats how we read it as well. could some one explain the grammer (legaleZe) that contradicts this logic. the phb description of Full Round Action seems to simply be you get multiple attacks (didnt realize you could take a full round action to full attack in a surprise round, learned something atleast)
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thats how we read it as well. could some one explain the grammer (legaleZe) that contradicts this logic. the phb description of Full Round Action seems to simply be you get multiple attacks (didnt realize you could take a full round action to full attack in a surprise round, learned something atleast)
Sure can!
In a single round, a character (normally) gets one move action and one standard action OR two move actions OR one full round action. This is important to note: A standard action is not considered PART OF a full round action. The two are mutually exclusive.
Therefore, a character could move up to their speed in the round (move action) and then use Manyshot to fire a cluster of arrows at a target. If they DID NOT move their speed, they could take a 'full attack' action (which is a full round action) and fire off all of their iterative attacks (depending on BAB). If they have Rapid Shot, they could use it as a full round action instead to fire an additional arrow on top of their normal iterative attacks but with each shot suffering the -2 penalty.
In short, firing one shot is a standard action. Firing one Manyshot is a standard action. Firing MULTIPLE shots (with or without Rapid Shot) is a full round action. You cannot take a standard action as part of a full round action.
Does that help?
Moreover, Rapid Shot states "You must use the full attack action to use this feat" (PHB 99). So you cannot apply Rapid Shot to a standard action - and Manyshot is a standard action.
Additionally, you cannot take a full attack on the surprise round. In reading only some of the text, though, this can be easily confused.
PHB 137 states that if you can act in the surprise round, you get only a standard action, and free actions at your DMs discretion.
PHB 139 states "Some full round actions can be taken as standard actions, but only in situations ... (such as in a surprise round). The descriptions of specific actions ... detail which actions allow this option."
The only full-round actions that state that you can use them as standard actions in a surprise round are Restricted Withdraw (PHB 144), Start/Complete a Full-Round Action (PHB 142) and maybe a special ability as defined by the ability itself (PHB 142, 143, 180). Full Attack does not allow the option.
It may be useful to note, however, that since Manyshot is a standard action, it can be used on the surprise round.
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The only full-round actions that state that you can use them as standard actions in a surprise round are Restricted Withdraw (PHB 144), Start/Complete a Full-Round Action (PHB 142) and maybe a special ability as defined by the ability itself (PHB 142, 143, 180). Full Attack does not allow the option.
Also Charge:
If you are able to take only a standard action or a move action on your turn, you can still charge, but you are only allowed to move up to your speed (instead of up to double your speed). You can’t use this option unless you are restricted to taking only a standard action or move action on your turn.
Right. Also charge. Like I said, easy to miss. Still, the main point stands: Full Attack cannot be used in the surprise round. (Okay, maybe with Pounce, but that's a specific special ability exception to the rule.)
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You think that's bad? For the first 6 months of my group's gaming career, we thought that Many Shot could apply to normal attacks, i.e., every attack you made with a bow could shoot multiple arrows. So, the ranger was shooting about 8 flaming arrows a round and doing about 50 damage on average.Further, for some reason we thought the 1.5 x Str bonus applied to attack as well as damage. We ran under that presumption for close to a year and a half.
That was dumb! Rules must always be examined carefully. :)
I mentioned in a different thread that I had to DM my groups right from the start. Unfortunately I never had the time to examine rules more closely. I have one very experienced player who usualy does this. Our "rules lawyer". Obviously this one time he missed something, too. ;-)
Greetings,
Günther
Further, for some reason we thought the 1.5 x Str bonus from using a two-handed weapon applied to attack as well as damage.
Upon re-reading, I was nearly as clear as I thought it was originally. The bold text should have been included in my previous post. :)