As inspired by a thread in the Pathfinder discussion area....
In core rules, there are only two half races -- half orcs and half elves. This brings up a whole host of questions:
How do you justify that only orcs and elves create half breeds, and those only with humans?
Have you homebrewed any other half races? Half dwarves? Half gnomes? Half halflings?
Have you created any half breeds between the non human species?
Why or why not allow something like the above?
I would maybe assume that there are half-orcs and half-elves because both orcs and elves share a common root in the human race. It may mess with the concept of elves as the super cool eldest race or whatever, but it seems like a good way to justify. Conversely, maybe it's an extension of humans represented as the most adaptable and ambitious race: the best way to solidify ties to other peoples may well be to integrate.
I've seen half-dwarves brought up in Second Edition in a Dungeon adventure. Half-gnomes and half-halflings just seem bizarre to me. Unsettling.
I've seen half-dwarves brought up in Second Edition in a Dungeon adventure. Half-gnomes and half-halflings just seem bizarre to me. Unsettling.
What, is there something about hot human on gnome action that doesn't sit right? Less so than human on dwarf?
I wanted to play a quaterling once. In the Book of Erotic Fantasy there's a chart that details what can breed with what. And apparently, halflings can't breed with humans, which is okay by me since I hadn't actually thought of what a quarterling would be.
I like the idea of elflings and dwelves running around and have kinda statted them out. I think its lame that only elves and orcs can breed with only humans too. That should be rectified.
I have a half-dwarf thread floating around, but I have made a half-dwarf. If you want more exotic cross-breeds you might want to check out Bastards and Bloodlines. It has anything from half-gaint eagles half-elves to half-trolls half-dwarves.
Fizz
I wanted to play a quaterling once. In the Book of Erotic Fantasy there's a chart that details what can breed with what. And apparently, halflings can't breed with humans, which is okay by me since I hadn't actually thought of what a quarterling would be.
I like the idea of elflings and dwelves running around and have kinda statted them out. I think its lame that only elves and orcs can breed with only humans too. That should be rectified.
I always thought that tallfellow halflings could be elf/halfling crossbreeds, or at least the decendants thereof, and stout halflings the result of halfling/dwarf crossbreeding.
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I never liked the idea of Half races. Cats and dogs don't mate and if they did there would be no offspring.
The only logical reason elves humans and orcs can breed is because they are the same species and are just dirrerent races. Dwarves, gnomes and halflings must be different species all together.
That being said, I think Dark Sun had Half-Dwarves, called Mules (they were sterile). So, if we accept them into the half-breeds then orcs, elves, humans and dwarves are all the same species.
I would rule that any race that is Humanoid could mate as they are all the same species, with just different racial roots. which means that Bugbears, Dwarves, Elves, Githyanki, Githzeri, Gnolls, Gnomes, Goblin, Halfling, Hobgoblin, Humans, Kobolds, Lizardfolk, Locathah, Merfolk, Orcs, and Troglodytes are all the same species and can mate. Mmmmm nope don't think so... so obviously Humanoid is not useful.
Yeah, just do away with half breeds all together. Better that way.
Yeah, just do away with half breeds all together. Better that way.
That's one of my most common house rules. I generally don't like half elves or orcs. Sometimes I'll allow gblins, though.
The only logical reason elves humans and orcs can breed is because they are the same species and are just dirrerent races. Dwarves, gnomes and halflings must be different species all together.
Then why aren't there half-elves half orcs, and can we say owlbear? It's D&D if I can have a gaint lizard that speaks, flies, breathes fires, and cast magic, then I just chalk it all up to a magical world where they don't know that only creatures of the same species can mate. I like Bastards and Bloodlines, but I don't want cross-breeds running around every where either. That's why I like Bastards and Bloodlines most of the "cross breeding" is through magical means, and most are sterile, so it's rare and when it does happens you won't have a village of mutts some where.
Example half-halfling/half-blinkdog Halflings are being invaded they are losing badly, so they start praying to some nature goddess for help. Their goddess answers by taking a group of warriors and making them half blinkdog so they could travel quickly across the battle field blinking around to destory their enemies. This was long ago and there are a few still around, but they are the desendents of the orignial warriors and their goddess decided to bless halflings with a special warrior to help them deal with hard times to come.
I like this because you shouldn't come across more than one ever.
p.s. I do hate half-elves either way
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I've been considering half-goblins myself. How do yours work, mechanically?Yeah, just do away with half breeds all together. Better that way.That's one of my most common house rules. I generally don't like half elves or orcs. Sometimes I'll allow gblins, though.
Mine can just change a car's oil, but usually forget to put the cap back on.
Don't let them work on your transmission no matter what they say.
I've been considering half-goblins myself. How do yours work, mechanically?Yeah, just do away with half breeds all together. Better that way.That's one of my most common house rules. I generally don't like half elves or orcs. Sometimes I'll allow gblins, though.
Not half goblins, full goblins. My players have ha dmore than a couple of interesting goblin characters.
Not half goblins, full goblins. My players have ha dmore than a couple of interesting goblin characters.
You know, I was trying to figure out why you had a problem with half orcs and half elves but not half goblins . . . NOW I get it, lol.
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I ran a game a few years ago where one of the characters was a half-ogre mage. He had no idea what he was, he just knew that he was really ugly for a human or even a half-orc, he was really big, really strong, and healed quickly. And that he had a +4 to his ECL. I had this really cool storyline worked out about the history of how he had come to be, but the campaign was ended by two of the players (a married couple) moving to Mississippi.
I am a strong proponent of the idea that "Half" anythings are not races:
That is they don't have cultures - cities etc. They are RARE one offs - the results of strange circumstance conspiring - a rape or bizarre brothel encounter that against all odds or as the result of exotic magics results in a pregnancy or birth - or alternately the "Half" is not a true half but rather has taken on certain characteristics as the result of exposure to mystical race based magics OR has undergone some sort of ritual (i.e. looks to boost his strength through the an ancient Orcish Blood-Rite) that results in the individual ememrging as a "Half" whatever.
Following this line of thinking, "Half" bloods could not only have the characteristics as listed but unique characteristics as well.
Thats what I would like to see I think it makes sense - though it does tend to take the game to a darker place - but then I like that too.
I've always figured that cross-species half-breed worked better if the parents' type was the same (Humanoid, Giant, Dragon). It always kind of bugged me that half-breeds always assumed one of the parents was human. What if they weren't? For Humanoids that have vastly different reproductive methods (such as lizardfolk), I would probably disallow them, unless it was exceptional circumstances (i.e. magical, divine intervention, what-have-you).
Something that I gleaned from the 2E version of the "Complete Guide to Sex" netbook was that races had greater or lesser fertility rates depending on how long they lived. Example: Humans generally have about a 25% fertility rate (IIRC) given ideal conditions, and considering an average Constitution score of 10. Increased Con scores result in greater fecundity (a good explanation of the lesser fertility rates of Elves), I used a rough 5% subtracted/added from the base fertility score depending on the parents' Con scores. For a base fertility score, I used the Middle Age divided by Maximum Age (rounded down) for the PC races in the PHB.
As far as creating new half-templates, I just took the base creature's abilities and halved them. Pretty straightforward. Somewhere, I have a half-oni template for OA adventures.
I've seen half-dwarves brought up in Second Edition in a Dungeon adventure. Half-gnomes and half-halflings just seem bizarre to me. Unsettling.What, is there something about hot human on gnome action that doesn't sit right? Less so than human on dwarf?
I guess it's the whole "Oompa Loompa" factor. I've never been able to really take halflings or gnomes all that seriously and I can't imagine anyone else doing the same, much less, you know, hitting that tiny magical whatsit.
I guess it's the whole "Oompa Loompa" factor. I've never been able to really take halflings or gnomes all that seriously and I can't imagine anyone else doing the same, much less, you know, hitting that tiny magical whatsit.I've seen half-dwarves brought up in Second Edition in a Dungeon adventure. Half-gnomes and half-halflings just seem bizarre to me. Unsettling.What, is there something about hot human on gnome action that doesn't sit right? Less so than human on dwarf?
Does that mean you've never seen this cover?
Well, races of destiny has a few more, like half ogres. If I remember my UA bloodlines correctly; a greater bloodline means one of your parents are that race; lesser bloodline a grandparent so then you would have a whole bunch of halfbreeds and quarter breeds. hehe so; a half elf and a half orc get married and their kid marries a human with a greater devil bloodline; what is the result?
so; a half elf and a half orc get married and their kid marries a human with a greater devil bloodline; what is the result?
Somebody with some serious baggage and a giant "DM Please Kick Me" sign permanently tattooed on them. ;)
Contributor
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As far as creating new half-templates, I just took the base creature's abilities and halved them. Pretty straightforward. Somewhere, I have a half-oni template for OA adventures.
Generally the rules avoid +1/-1 bonuses that you can choose to take, because it leads to a specific type of min/maxiness. I'd much rather have a i6 and a 10 then a 15 and an 11.
Same reason stat-enhancing magic happens in even numbers.
Mind you, if you use point buy, it doesn't really matter.
Lol Lilith; you always bring a smile; thanks; can you imagine this family and what kind of cousins are possible with a few brothers and sisters who also intermarry; somebody out there has to have given this a little though; I can't be the only one who has a good time thinking up weird gaming stuff like this.
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Well, races of destiny has a few more, like half ogres. If I remember my UA bloodlines correctly; a greater bloodline means one of your parents are that race; lesser bloodline a grandparent so then you would have a whole bunch of halfbreeds and quarter breeds. hehe so; a half elf and a half orc get married and their kid marries a human with a greater devil bloodline; what is the result?
http://www.handmadewebsites.com/mystuff/reese.html
hehe; dont forget the half dwarf thread that was around here; that has a pretty good list of a bunch of half races.
Yeah, just do away with half breeds all together. Better that way.That's one of my most common house rules. I generally don't like half elves or orcs. Sometimes I'll allow gblins, though.
Nor do I. They are both conceptually lame.
3 core races are stolen from Tolkien (I'm leaving out elves and dwarves because they had their origins in nordic myths), hobbits, the numenoreans (among others), and orcs.
Post lawsuit, hobbits became halflings, but it's still an original idea . . . at least for Tolkien (great artist steal).
Core half-elves, however, have NOTHING of the flare of Aragorn, the dunedain, the numenoreans, Elrond half-elven - you name it. It's just a lame meta-combo of stats, and, oh, let's see . . . a human barbarian or something raped your elven mother. And unless they are first & second born "children of Iluvatar" the fact they can interbreed at all is just silly.
Core half-orcs have even less concept behind them than half-elves. They couldn't allow orc characters in core (going a long way back) *because orcs are so evil* AND, because if they allowed PC orc (including that +4 Strength bonus), then pretty much everyone'd be playing orcs . . . so they half-assed it, instead of just creating something new - or stealing from another source!
Awwwwwwwww, shucks . . . I'm just b+#&%ing. ;^)
Remember folks the cool Muls from Dark Sun! The sterile crossberd between a Dwarf and Human. Their concept may not be orginal, but as PC's they are cool race to play.
Hmmmmmm.....sterile crossbred...? Kind like a Mule the offspring between a horse and a donkey. The differents???? Lets see...stubborn...mean as hell...and will bite you if it has the chance. Actually their appears to be no differents between a Mul and Mule. OMG there pronounced the same! Praise to the jackass' of D&D!
I've always figured that cross-species half-breed worked better if the parents' type was the same (Humanoid, Giant, Dragon). It always kind of bugged me that half-breeds always assumed one of the parents was human. What if they weren't? For Humanoids that have vastly different reproductive methods (such as lizardfolk), I would probably disallow them, unless it was exceptional circumstances (i.e. magical, divine intervention, what-have-you).
I pretty much agree. In my homebrew world, there are plenty of different intelligent races and I have pretty much ruled that same type creatures can produce offsprings (all humanoids etc). Cultural and such issues can determine how common those offsprings are, but as a rule all of them are exceptions (so no "half-elf" race, while individual half-elves exist).
And of course there are some specific races with offbeat reproduction, like one nymph-based race made entirely of females whose female children were full nymphs and male children were race of their father (with possible some minor modifications).And one shapeshifting race whose females were unable to reproduce with other species, males were but the mother (and child) typically didn't survive full term...
One might also argue that species with different gestation times might have difficulties, like if we assume elven gestation time to be longer than humans (reflecting their longevity), half-elf children carried by human mothers might be born premature, possibly too premature to live...while the ones carried by elven mothers might be ok (I must say I don't really know if too long gestation has some ill effects on the child...)
their seems to be a bazillion half race threads now; could this be cleaned up somehow; is getting confusing.
Generally the rules avoid +1/-1 bonuses that you can choose to take, because it leads to a specific type of min/maxiness. I'd much rather have a i6 and a 10 then a 15 and an 11.
Same reason stat-enhancing magic happens in even numbers.
Mind you, if you use point buy, it doesn't really matter.
Yeah, if I were to use the "half breed" template more often in a campaign, it's something I would handcraft for the +2/-2, as well as balance out racial abilities.
their seems to be a bazillion half race threads now; could this be cleaned up somehow; is getting confusing.
I was the OG....
Fizz
Yes, I am giving this matter too much thought. So sue me.
If we assume that length of pregnancy is comparable to total age, and size of the newborn baby of different race is proportional to human baby, but outside these effects all humanoids can breed with each other, what is likelihood of successful pregnancy and birth of half-breeds?
I am a laywoman on these matters, so anyone with better knowledge on medicine is welcome to chime in. And yes, this can be bit grisly but it is good to remember that before 20th century infant mortality was large (in medieval times about 50% of all children lived past first two years of their lives...) and childbirth was the most likely cause of death for young women...
If the size difference between two races is too large and mother is of the smaller race, that typically means that pregnancy will be problematic and natural childbirth is likely to be impossible. In these cases child can sometimes be saved by Caesarean surgeon, which in pre-20th century medicine usually meant death of the mother. Attempt at natural childbirth is likely to result in death for both (child by suffocation, mother by rupturing something or other, infection and what have you). Another possibility is to try to save the mother and kill the child, typically by methods I choose not to discuss here (and often result in death of mother anyway).
Difference between gestation times between races brings other problems. If the gestation time is too short, child born prematurely is unlikely to survive. If it is too long, child grows too mature and large, resulting in size complications discussed above.
Humans: Human mothers are relatively large, but short-lived. Thus half-breeds fathered by almost all other races of PHB are likely to be premature births. Orcs are an exception, though size of half-orcs is likely to lead to size complications in birth, half-goblins on the other hand should be easier. Another likely possibility is half-halfling which should be relatively easy pregnancy and birth.
Dwarves: Dwarf mothers are likely to give the easiest births to half-breeds. While not tall, dwarves are very stodgy; this of course also requires wider pelvises of dwarf females. Thus giving birth to more lithe creatures should be no major problem (however, half-dwarves carried by any other race most likely lead to severe complications and death of the mother). A bit taller limbs and body might be a bit uncomfortable though. In gestation time dwarves fall well between other races so some marginal one way or other can be handled.
And let's not forget, +2 bonus to constitution!
Elves: Elven mothers are pretty much the opposite of dwarves. Lithe body (-> small pelvis), long gestation time, -2 to constitution...so while elven mother might carry the child full term, it is unlikely she survives the childbirth. Safest bet for half-breed would be half-gnome.
Gnomes and halflings: Small bodies of these races are biggest problem in half-breed births. Breeding with each other should cause no major problems, and half-elves might also be a possibility, at least for gnomes (and again, that +2 CON is golden). Other combinations are likely to be dangerous (now, those Tolkienesque Hobbits would be much better at this than these modern D&D halflings...).
Orcs: Size should pose no problems; the shorter gestation time however will mean that most half-breed births are premature. Half-humans should be viable, half-halflings a possibility.
Size proportions and gestation time: Human children have large heads. The head of the infant grows much less over the years as does rest of the body. Head is also usually the limiting factor in childbirth, if it passes through rest of the body should be no problem (though at least shoulders occasionally can get stuck). If the proportions apply to other races, dwarves are the most problematic ones as their heads are even wider. Thus any other race giving birth to half-dwarf is likely to result in major complications.
Gestation time of humans is actually slightly shorter than it should be, human children are born prematurely to allow large heads (and brain capacity) while still keeping the pelvises reasonably-sized to allow upright walking. This leads to unusually long period of helpless infancy when compared to other animals. Other humanoids are not necessarily proportional to this: one might assume that for example goblinoids have proportionally longer gestation time after which they give birth to more mature children. Elves on the other hand might be just the opposite.
I have also not considered any cultural or other factors as those can change from campaign world to another and also inside them. Nomadic cultures might have less tolerance for weaklings like those half-breeds born prematurely even if same child born to a city-dweller could be nursed to good health.
Dwarven mothers? Dwarven mothers? What a queer idea, as far as I know there are not any female dwarves and never will be; least in my world. hehe
I guess that is the major reason why there are so few half-dwarves. Rest of the races can't recognize which ones are the females (and even if they do, there is something a tad perverse about it all...)