Need Better Game Economics

[yellowdingo]

Piazo need to get some overly skilled economists and historians to do a book on the Mystaran Kingdom of Karameikos by analyzing its economy. The game Description is a vague dreamland compared to the medieval realities.

[KnightErrantJR]

Economics in D&D, much like combat, are an abstraction. They are only meant to be as "real" as they have to be in order to keep the game flowing. Just as a "real" fighter doesn't have the ability to be struck full force twenty times before dying, the cost of goods and services only exist to give a reason to aquire and spend it.

I was just reading the parts in the DMG II about starting and running a business, and I was thinking about the fact that it might be fun to try as a PC, and what I would do with the rules as a DM. The rules probably don't line up perfectly with an actual economic model, but within the game they "feel" accurate.

I don't think its any more imperitive to make D&D economics line up as perfectly logical than it is to come up with specific hit locations for characters in combat. But these are all just my thoughts.

[Fletch]

yellowdingo wrote:

Piazo need to get some overly skilled economists and historians to do a book on the Mystaran Kingdom of Karameikos by analyzing its economy.

If you're specifically interested in Karameikos and Mystara, I would highly recommend the Gazeteers for the Minrothad Guilds and Darokin. Included in the discussion of these two mercantile nations are maps of the resources each major city imports and exports. I don't have them right in front of me, but those rules basically give you stuff such that your PCs could buy some lumber in Specularum for [dice roll] 75gp and then take it to Rockhome where they'll buy it for ['nuther dice roll] 115gp.

It's not even remotely medievel, though. The amount of gold in existance in your average D&D game world precludes any kind of true medievel simulation. If that's really what you're looking for, I'd consider Ars Magica.

[Valegrim]

you have to be kidding; you dont really want a micro and macro study in economics of this do you? If so, am curious why...

[Kirth Gersen]

Fletch wrote:

The amount of gold in existance in your average D&D game world precludes any kind of true medievel simulation.

How much gold (in terms of sheer mass) is there in the average campaign? Seems like it might strain the total gold reserves of the entire planet, assuming Earth-like conditions. So I agree, you just can't sweat it too much.

[ikki]

one no doubt fairly important factor when wondering about the value of gold is to remember we have such spells for summoning efreti, that can grant 75000 goldcoins a day.

As im sure every spellcaster out there does that for a living, we end up with quite a lot of coins.. ;)

[Faraer]

yellowdingo wrote:

The game Description is a vague dreamland compared to the medieval realities.

As it's supposed to be. If you want to play in medieval Europe, the setting to use is medieval Europe.

[Dragonmann]

If you want an overly in depth analysis of economics, try and fnd a copy of Aria by Last Unicorn Games. Especially the second book,the world builder guide i think was the title.

Has a very very in depth method for building it. I tried to build a spread sheet of it at some point, but it just got rediculous. All of Aria reads like a college text book on gaming theory, so be ready for a thump in the face.

[Samuel Weiss]

Would this article include anything like you posted on the WotC boards yellowdingoe?
You proved the game system was just a fantasy simulation and could easily be abused, but I'd hope never to see anything like that presented as "standard" for a game world.

[Valegrim]

One major facet of inflation is the devalued amount of money by to much money leaving a country or to much money in circulation; gold is only precious supposedly due to it scarcety; haveing it imported from other planes by various methods would certainly cause runs on the economy and devalue every source of currency; this should be a real problem in games of high magic; coinage would become a thing of the past as it would have no real value; it is likely that a system of barter would then become the status quo or perhaps some agency would arise to keep to much valuable merchandise from leaving planes or countries much like the Bullionists tried in our own history. Free Trade Agreement beween Planes anyone?

[Marc Radle]

Hey, wow - an Aria mention! I used to work with Last Unicorn Games. In fact, I was involved with the Aria game (I did some illustration work, editing, play testing etc). I always thought the Aria game could have been a great suppliment to a D&D game, even though it was obviously designed as a stand alone game. I actually was thinking recently about how well some of the Aria concepts would work translated to 3.5 Edition and submitted to Dragon as an article.

That is obviously a moot idea now though ...

[Valegrim]

Wow; nice to meet you.

[Dragonmann]

Marc Radle 81 wrote:

Hey, wow - an Aria mention! I used to work with Last Unicorn Games. In fact, I was involved with the Aria game (I did some illustration work, editing, play testing etc). I always thought the Aria game could have been a great suppliment to a D&D game, even though it was obviously designed as a stand alone game. I actually was thinking recently about how well some of the Aria concepts would work translated to 3.5 Edition and submitted to Dragon as an article.

That is obviously a moot idea now though ...

Aria was awsome in a way that can only be appreciated by someone slogging through a "hard" major in college (mine was engineering) where reading 50 pages of textbook material was normal.

Which reminds me, now that I am no longer paying for the privelege of reading textbooks other people tell me to, I should drag Aria out and finish reading it...

[Marc Radle]

I still have my books (along with some other bits of Last Unicorn stuff) and pull them out from time to time. There really were some great ideas in those books, although they were indeed aimed more at college and adult level gamers than the average 14 year old.

Aria Worlds has a wealth of great detailed info to make a game world really come alive, but you have to be willing to put in some work. The way it can make countries and groups come alive is fantastic and creatively liberating.

Aria Roleplaying, if you really read it, seems to actually have a few ideas that, at least in some respects, have similarities with what went on years later to become 3E D&D. If I could ever find some good gamers in my area to get a good D&D campaign going (all my old gaming friends have unfortunately moved away and now live in other states) I would love to try incorporating some Aria ideas into a campaign. Oh well ...

Boy, this is really taking me back ... I loved working with those guys - it was an interesting and exciting time.

Sorry to have hijacked this thread a little, by the way!

[Dragonmann]

Well, you could move too...

I know a quaint area in NE Ohio where life is miserable and property is cheap... And I could guarantee a gaming group...

Anyway, as I recall, Aria had a system for establishing the costs of resources, including labor, and then used basic economics to build up from there.

It was a handy set of guidelines, especially when dealing with a fantasy setting where anything could be completely out of wonk with reality. Such as availability of resource X, or number of laborers, etc...

As for the bad economics of D&D itself, it suffers from 2 destructive problems. First, it is a "money from heaven" economy. That is to say, that money comes from nominally outside sources (read dungeons) but doesn't typically exit. In reality, if every adventurer was bringing home gold, the value of gold would drop, and something else would become precious, wash, rinse, repeat...

The second problem is a game design problem, At some point, the gold piece value of stuff was used as a balance to the mechanical effect. Unfortunately, aside from a few major mundane items, and magic items, this system falls apart after, oh level 3 or so if you stick to wealth by level.

Take the example of mastercrafted weapons. It costs the same to mastercraft a 2gp dagger and a 400gp heavy repeating crossbow. Why? because it provides a +1 to hit, and the ability to be enchanted. It would make more sense to have a masterwork item cost 5 or 10 times the cost.

Downside is having to determine the cost seperate from the price. The cost is what it takes to make it, the price what you have to pay to get it, the difference the profit.

A heavy repeating crossbow may be 400 gp because it costs 200gp and the smith wants 200gp profit, or it may cost 50, with a 50 gp profit, and a 300gp tax paid to the local lord for "weapons of war"

So whoever wants to write a better economy, raise your hand.

[Karelzarath]

Dragonmann wrote:

So whoever wants to write a better economy, raise your hand.

Gentlemen, I direct you to this: A Magical Medieval Society. Good ideas, good implementation, but bring your math hat.

[Rezdave]

Dragonmann wrote:

In reality, if every adventurer was bringing home gold, the value of gold would drop.

I run a moderate-magic low-economy world based on the silver standard. Anyone who's read my posts elsewhere (lately in the "Snowball Effect" thread) knows I'm stingy ... the "Anty-Haul" as it were.

IMO, adventurers are in that profession because they can't stand the thought of another day on the farm, not to gain fame, fortune or wealth. Most cannot make a living, so "adventuring parties" actually tend to be moonlighters, local blacksmiths, teamsters, scribes, ministers or merchants who are friends and gather together every six months or so to go check out yet another local, oft-picked-over ruin as a Fighter, Ranger, Wizard, Cleric or Rogue.

Those who are lucky return with nothing other that the experience of a week-long camping trip "with the boys". Those who are luckier find a few old coins previous visitors have missed. Those who are unlucky actually encounter a monster that has made the ruins its new lair and are never heard from again.

Full-time, "professional" adventurers who make a living at it are rare, tend to exist hand-to-mouth during their career and if they survive long enough will retire after 4-6 years at 2nd-4th level. Most are forced into retirement by their impoverished existance or injuries while others decide the threats are not longer worth the meager return. Some have hit one or two sizeable troves that give them enough of a nest-egg to open a modest tavern, blacksmith shop or other business (or even simply buy and farm their own land) but are by no means wealthy.

More powerful NPC adventurers tend to keep fighting goblins or bandits and so eventually plateau, lacking both the XP to progress and the funds to equip themselves to face stronger threats. Weaker ones eventually walk into the lair of a dangerous monster and become dinner.

PCs are the rare and exceptionally few professional adventurers who by some chance of fate always seem to walk into sites inhabited by some until-then-successful "monster" just slightly weaker than themselves.

This philosophy tends to keep the game economy more balanced.

Dragonmann wrote:

It would make more sense to have a masterwork item cost 5 or 10 times the cost.

Actually, this is precisely among my House Rules. Weapons, Object d'Art and anything rare or specialized = 10x, Armor and most other items = 5x.

Dragonmann wrote:

So whoever wants to write a better economy, raise your hand.

I once wrote up an in-character economic discussion for my Players (using their PCs as characters in the scene) that described why a potion is so expensive when it's components only cost a pittance of silver and copper pieces. Here's an overview:

The basic structure of the economy assumes that every PHB and DMG price is "MSRP" and that everyone at every stage demands a 100% gross profit margin (i.e. they sell it for twice what they paid for it, but then have to use that revenue to cover all overhead expenses, taxes, etc.)

The Wizard/Magic-shoppe-owner sells the potion at retail for 50gp, and pays the Witch/potion-brewer 25gp for each potion wholesale. She in turn buys the components to brew it off-the-shelf from his shop for 12.5gp (note that this makes the actual materials cost of enchanting magic items 25% of the DMG value, rather than 50%, but in a low-economy silver-standard game is not a problem).

Meanwhile, the Wizard is paying 6.25gp for the components gathered locally by the Ranger/woodsman and delivered weekly or to the Rogue/circus-trader when she passes through town from visiting more distant markets.

The Ranger is thus making about 1gp/day, but is supporting three apprentices who help him gather components.

Meanwhile, while it seems like the Wizard is cashing in, his overhead includes the mortgage on the shoppe, property taxes, business taxes, and hefty security costs to prevent theft. All of this on top of the large inventory of rare and potentially perishable components and potions he is expected by his clients to maintain in-stock whether they are likely to sell or not, and it's not like he has a steady stream of customers every day buying up his stock. He may sell a potion a week, or not.

In other words:

1) Put your world, including the PCs, on the silver-standard;

2) When in doubt, 1sp = $50 USD = 1 night's sleep at a cheap motel = one large meal at a tavern = 10 hours of unskilled labor;

3) Keep the PCs (and all adventurers) poor or let them go back to the farm ... it's easier to reward them later to increase their wealth if they don't have enough than it is to take it away what you've given them previously when they have too much;

4) Masterwork items are 5x or 10x the cost of their mundane counterparts, depending upon the type of item;

5) Construction and/or enchantment costs for any item are 25% of the "retail value" of that item;

6) If you have a "sweet-heart deal" with a supplier, buy in bulk, adventure for components or gather materials yourself then you can get items for anywhere from a 10% discount to almost free. The trade-off, however, is time and risk;

7) PCs almost never sell to end-buyers (except the rare commission, and then they still won't make retail), but must unload items they make or acquire to merchants, or more likely to traders who will buy both bulk and variety, then supply various merchants. Thus a PC selling a newly-crafted item can only expect to make 25% (trader) or 50% (merchant) of the "book value" of the item from the sale. The trader pays less but can purchase more;

8) "Used" items (aka "adventure loot") always sell for at most 50% the value of new items, and perhaps much less depending upon the condition;

9) When selling loot from a dungeon, PCs should expect to get anywhere from 5-20% of the "retail value" when they finish unloading it all. If they have a regular and well-connected liquidator who can get them an average of 15% then they're doing well;

10) Don't ever forget about encumberance. Metal coins are heavy, and gear is bulky. Coinage needs to be converted to trade-gems for easy transport. Money-changers, whether exchanging coins for gems or "coins-of-the-realm" for foreign currency charge a minimum fee of 3% up to a maximum 10% of the value traded. Assayers also charge a fee to determine the quality/purity/value of ingots.

*sigh*

Can I put my hand down now?

Rez

[Kyr]

I recommend another solution - that seems in line with the game world.

Don't give out so much gold.
That does not mean award less treasure, but rather use your imagination - what would treasure in a medieval game world consist of if one was going to attempt the collapse of gold as a rare currency:

Carpets
Jade Sculpture
Ivory Tusks
Ornately Crafted Furniture
Ornately Crafted Columns
Spices
Perfumes
Fine fabics
Fine Clothes
Furs
Exotic Pets
Exotic handicrafts (music boxes - chess sets)
The estates themselves
Salt
Stores of Food
Stores of good timber

Add to this list that ANYTHING can have an element of magic as well and the possibilities are beyond endless

Statues that dance to music, music boxes that perfrom as full bands, patterns in tapestries that shift and move with the telling of a story, and on and on...

High magic low magic doesn't matter - the treasure tables are and I beleive this is in the books - to determine the value of treasure not to actually describe that treasure - in fact there are tables of various objects to be used in lieu of coin - to save you the headache of figuring it out.

In addition to solving the issue with depreciation of gold - it provides opportunities for adventure hooks, and really adding texture to your campaign world, and adding challenges to thhe party - how to move and market captured columns of lapis lazuli? How do you find a buyer? How do you gain an audience with someone who could be a buyer? Do you keep an estate? If you win it how do you get legal title? Depending on the kind of game you run (or are willng to run) this could provide for a lot of opportunities for intrigue and the introduction of colorful NPCs.

IF you don't want to do that - just give them the GP value - BUT tell the party that treasure is not in coin but goods - and has five or ten times the weight and space requirements and move on - and then assign a bit of the value to coin.

More texture for the world - more inline with treasure that makes sense, the economics of the world (While not fixed) make a bit more sense, and you can use those tables in the DMG.

[Valegrim]

hehe give out all you gold you want then run a barter economy where it is all practically useless; you can't eat gold. The lower the civilization level the less coinage matters.