Also frequently (especially in cold countries) alcohol was safer to drink than clean water. Children were raised drinking ale instead of water and adults often graduated to stronger stuff, especially after distillation was invented. This means that everyone (particularly the wealthy ruling classes) were constantly tipsy, if not downright drunk. He ended by saying that if we keep this in mind, the political history of Europe makes alot more sense...
Places with long histories of large static populations all follow this model, out of necessity, as groundwater resources became more and more polluted with time. Greece and Rome had wine (alcohol kills bacteria in water); Germany and England had beer; China had tea (boiling also kills bacteria). Beer was invented in ancient Egypt, and was doled out to laborers in ancient Peru. Cool stuff!
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Ale, Barrel................................146sp
Fine Wine, Barrel.........................2,690gp
Common Wine, Barrel.......................5,912cp
Why this made me laugh my ass off:
The Golden Phoenix was, if anything, even more impressive than I’d hoped. I spent that much on my new outfit hoping to be the impressive one there, but ended up merely fitting in. Frothlethimble showed up in a garish and clashing outfit complete with wide brimmed hat that somehow, incredibly, looked pretty awesome. Gnomes can get away with checker patterns and purple and green.
The meal was equally incredible, a delightful feast that consisted of a ten-course meal accompanied by musicians and entertainment. The Almorian Stuffed Stirge was the second-most adventurous risk of the evening, but it turned out to be far more delicious than it had any right being. The MOST adventurous risk, of course, was ordering “the best wine in the house.”
Turned out to be a crystal bottle of elven honey sun wine. The date on its label said “2.” Everyone else in the place grew silent when I ordered it, and the staff brought it out on its own wheeled cart. When they opened the bottle, the wine got a standing ovation.
It was, without a doubt, the most incredible thing I’d ever tasted, and between Frothlethimble and I, we drained the bottle dry over the course of our four hour meal. Finally, deep into the night, and barely able to move for being so full and pleasantly drunk, our waitress arrived pleasant and thankful at our table and presented us with the bill, a simple piece of folded parchment on a golden platter. A shudder built inside me, as nothing on the menu had displayed any prices, but I managed to hide my trepidation enough as I reached for the parchment and opened it up.
4,785 gold pieces.
15% gratuity not included.
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Never let it be said that sense had nothing to do when offered a bottle of fouled grapejuice crushed beneath the smelly feet of diseased and plague riddled peasants...it went out the window.
"Four thousand gold pieces for a bottle of wine with our dinner...you mad git!" Pulls sword of Kas from cloak of shadowspace and stabs servant.
Vigo the moneylender offers five thousand gold royals to meet your dinner bill...
So they are hung like a horsethief?
Clever boy.
....can I get a Bag of Holding Type XX please?
Yellowdingo's post reminds me of Harn, I don't know if anyone ever played in Harnworld, I know I didn't, but we did use it as a ressource during a rolemaster campaign.
Do they hang you for stealing chickens?
Do the chickens have large talons?
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Estat di Marilenev
Marilenev Estate
Area: 940 square miles
Population (AC1000):10,000 (8,500 in farm, 900 Village & others)
One of the earliest estates established in Traladara, It occupies some of the better agricultural lands. Marilenev is self-sufficient in the production of grains, vegetables, fodders, meats, fowl, fish, salt, wine, honey & wax, timber & wood, and even a range of cheeses.
Although it has all ways been the power in the region, there has been a distinct shift since the arrival of Duke Stephan Karameikos some thirty years previous which culminated in the destruction of her family. It is from this that the lady marilinev has overseen the rise of the Estate as an Economic power. As of1000AC Marilenev Estate alone produced more than the rest of the Duchy of Karameikos.
Compared to the rest of Karameikos even the peasant farmers of Marilenev are well off, with reasonable stability. No longer do armies of Knights ride through farms, torching vital crops, seize grain harvests, or march their children off to die in castle sieges. Now the small lanes that crisscross the estate and divide farmland are being paved in stone and even being repaired and maintained, as thousands of wagons continuously move vital produce to market.
Marilenev Castle and Village
Population (900)
Marilinev Village is not a muddy little Cul-de-sac of wood, mud, and straw huts and diseased serfs in the shadow of a stone fortress. Every alley and lane paved, and every building is stone.
This is a storehouse for the continuous handling of the vast volumes of produce created by the Estate. Whether it is the Brewing of Ale from the Lady marilenev’s stock of grain, the manufacture of Smoked mutton and beef sausages, or the maintenance of a thousand wagons and carts and the stabling of draft animals that move produce from farms to markets.
The Lady Marilenev
The karamekians consider her a bitter old crone in a crumbling gothic monstrosity of a Castle with little power and no friends yet It is thirty years since her family led an army to throw down the usurper Duke Karameikos only to be betrayed and crushed yet she Still holds the Title to the estate and it is wealthier now than it has ever been.
Total Annual Production Yields
Produce Marilenev Salt Tax Church Tithe
Timber &
Wood 25,088,000lb 7,168,000lb 4,300,800 lb
Wine 281,175 firkin 80,335 firkin 48,200 firkin
Honey 77 firkin 22 firkin 13 firkin
Wax 490lb 140lb 84lb
Fish 1,640 firkin 480 firkin 336 firkin
Salt 40 firkin 5 firkin 3 firkin
Cheese 338,730lb 96,780lb 48,390lb
Cattle 1,400 head 400 head 240 head
Turnip 760,725 ton 21,735 ton 13,040 ton
Wool 4,725lb 1,350lb 945lb
Cheese/
Ewes-milk 90,090lb 25,740lb 15,444lb
Barley 8,662,500lb 2,475,000lb 1,485,000lb
Chaff 10,080 ton 2,880 ton 1,728 ton
Farm Type Produce Share
1,700 acre woodlot 175,616lb (219.52 Cord)
Fishing family, Small Boat 230.4 firkin fish
0.48 firkin salt
178 acre Cattle Herder 9.8 head
71 acre Vineyard 984.1075 firkin wine
1.715lb wax,
0.27 firkin honey
70 acre Dairy Farm 2,371.11lb cheese
71 acre Farms 355 ton turnip,
11.025lb wool,
210.21lb cheese,
18.62 ton chaff,
20,212.5lb barley grain
Agricultural Produce in the marilenev Estate
The Logging Camps
With 358,400 acres of light forest, there is a managed harvest plan to ensure a permanent supply of firewood and timber for the estate.
There are 200 families employed across this region, each family harvesting 17 acres of wood per year.
17 acres x 20,000lb = 340,000lb
340,000lb x 20 families x 10 hexes = 71,680,000lb
The Fishing Communities
Occupying some 40 miles of coastline are 100 families employed in fishing and salt production. 8 months a year, six days a week they fish from their small fishing boats.
Salt Production for fish preservation provides for the
manufacture of 4,800 firkin of preserved fish only
leaving 96 firkin of Salt. This is representative of
12 Cran of fish per year per fishing family
(1 Cran = 37.5 gallons of fish or 750 fish).
Firkin of Preserved fish requires ¼ Cran fish & 50lb salt.
12 Cran x 4 firkin x 100 families = 4,800 firkin of preserved fish.
36 gallons of seawater x 6 days x 4 weeks = 216lb Salt
8 months x 216lb x 100 families = 1,296 firkin of Salt
4,896 firkin required.
The Vineyards
The Vineyards along this part of the river are the work of thirty years, and the families who own these vineyards have reaped considerable wealth from the distinct change in Estate Policy that they represent: A change from warfare to commerce and production.400 vineyards x 70 acres @ 63% yield +20% (Bees)
2 x 200 families x 71 acres = 28,000 acres
28,000 acres x 2.5 ton x 0.83 = 58,100 ton
58,100 ton x 2,240lb
= 130,144,000lb grapes produced annually.
130,144,000lb/90lb=1,446,044 (x 5 gallons)
Wine produced is 7,230,222 gallons per year.
(7,230,222 gallons / 9 gallons)
= 803,358 firkin of wine per year.
Honey & Wax
400 vineyards x 7 skep hives
400 x 7 = 2,800 hives
28,000 lb honey
2,800 lb wax
1.4129 x 10 lb= 1 gallon of honey
28,000lb / 14.129=1981.7 gallon of honey
1981.7 gallons/9 gallons=220 firkin of honey
803,577 firkin required.
The Dairy District
Grazing on some 14,000 acres are 200 dairy farms
200x70=14,000 acres
1&1/2 acres per cow.
14,000/1.5=9,333 cows x 0.63=5,879 cows
29 cows per family
Milking season 8 months per year
29 x 140 gallons = 4,060 gallons
10.31 x 4,060=41,858lb milk
41,858 x (5/43.25)= 4,839lb cheese
4,839lb x 200 farms= 967,800lb cheese/year
The Cattle herds
Tended by 200 families over 35,640 acres of reasonably good grazing land, each family runs a herd of 74 cattle
200 families, 178 acres, 74 cattle
35,640 / 1.5 x 0.63=14,968 head
Every year each family sends 20 head to the sale yards.
20 x 200= 4,000 head
The West Country
These are perhaps the oldest and earliest parts of the estate of Marilenev.
Consisting of 168 square miles of agricultural land, it includes in its heavily populated region the capital city (the once guild town) Specularum and the village and castle Marilenev. Of the 105,600 acres only 42,600 acres is held by farming families. This leaves over 98 square miles of countryside. Marilenev Village is a veritable storehouse of goods.
With Six hundred families farming in the West
71 acre farms: 3 fields of 23 acres @63% efficiency
23 acres of barley x 57 bushes x 63%=825 bushels barley.
825 x 50lb= 41,250lb grain
825 x 213lb chaff= 175,725lb chaff
23 acres of turnip x 25 ton x 63%=362.25 ton
9 sheep overgrazing 23 acres with thirty ton of chaff as fodder support.
9 sheep x 2.5lb wool= 22.5lb wool
& Dairy 180 days @ ¼ gallon
8 ewes x 45 gallons=360 gallons
360 x 10.31 x (5/ 43.25) = 429lb cheese
808,473 firkin are manufactured across the estate each year using 7,276,257lb wood.
Produce @ Marilenev Village Income
Winefirkin 280,000 firkin @ 50gp/firkin 14,000,000gp
Sack(Turnip) 9,000,000 Sacks @ 2gp/40lb sack 20,000,000gp
Sack(Barley) 200,000 Sacks @ 2gp/40lb sack 400,000gp
Firewood Cord 30,000 cord @ 25gp/800lb cord 750,000gp
Coin Income 35,150,000gp
Item Cost
Civilworks (maintenance- stone paved Roads) 5,000,000gp
Wages (1000 servants) 120,000gp
Tool Maintenance (wagons, farm tools, Draft Animals) 30,000gp
Lady Magda’s Purse 30,000,000gp
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Black Eagle Barony
Area: 610 square miles
Population: 10,300
Fort Doom: 10,000
The very economy of the Black Eagle Barony is designed to keep the populace poor and in their place. Those who cannot pay their rents in cash do so in labor.
Beyond the numerous humanoid War-bands, the Baron has 200 heavy Horsemen (Knights of the Black Eagle) to field in any battle. About the border of the Barony are a thousand humanoids.
Export Produce @ Fort Doom Income
300,000 barleysacks(40lb) 2gp/40lb sack 600,000gp
Budget Item Value
Wages (200 heavy Horsemen) 120,000gp
Wage (Bargle the infamous) 12,000gp
Wages (1,000 humanoids) 120,000gp
Wages (100 servants) 12,000gp
Civil works (FortDoom) 100,000gp
Baron’s Purse 120,000gp
The Baron and his wizard are reviled and despised, yet the management of the Baron ensures that the serf populace is provided their ration share of food and fuel needed to maintain the population. Illness amongst the serf populace is purely a result of exposure to ergot during it’s separation from the rye harvest.
Production Yield Incomes
Produce Baron Salt tax Church tithe
Barley Grain 12,869,955lb 3,677,130lb 1,838,565lb
Barley Chaff 54,826,008lb 15,664,573lb 7,832,286lb
Hay 83,625 ton 23,893 ton 11,946 ton
Ergot 1,792lb
Boars 224
Salted Fish 392 firkin 112 firkin 56 firkin
Salt 36 firkin 10 firkin 5 firkin
Wood (cord) 405 cord 116 cord 58.6 cord
Produce Farmers
Rye grain 10,752,000lb
Rye Thatch 45,803,520lb
Salted Fish 2,000 firkin
Wood (cord) 2,000 cord
Rye & Ergot
As part of his Agricultural reforms, the Baron has some 17, 920 acres of Marsh farmed as rye crop.
The Rye is yielding 12 bushels of rye grain per acre.
12 x 17,920 =215,040 bushels=
10,752,000lb grain
45,803,520lb Rye Thatch
This is tended by workers from Fort Doom. Under these marsh conditions the rye is supplying the Baron with 1/10 lb/acre of ergot.
The Baron makes good use of this ergot in various schemes to contaminate crops, grain shipments, and poison wells.
17,920 x 0.1lb = 1,792lb Ergot
He certainly has no problem feeding the tainted rye to his serfs after they have picked out the ergot by hand.
The Baron’s Boars
The woods are off limits to peasants looking for fire wood. Timber felling here is very much illegal. It is here that eight families are employed to hunt boar for the Baron (and work as warden of the woods) when he is not doing so himself (although boar is not the only thing hunted here).
These woods yield 1 boar/ square mile per year.
4 x 56 square miles =224 boars per year
The Timber Plantations
Because of the Baron’s management, the peasants of the Black Eagle Barony have a regular supply of fire wood.
112 square miles of farmland are used to produce the firewood fuel needs of the Barony. These Woodlots occupy the hill country in the north of the Barony.
112 x 640 x 20,000lb x0.63 =903,168,000lb
903, 168,000lb/8,000lb=112,896 cord
112,896/5 year re-growth=2,579.6 cord
Four hundred families work these timber plantations year round. As a consequence each family of the Barony gets a ration of firewood (1 cord). Although this is only 1/5th of the firewood needs of a family, they must make due.
Fishing the Halag
Eighty Families fish the Gulf of Halag each producing one Cran of preserved fish per month.
80 families x 8 months x 4 firkin = 2,560 firkin of salted fish.
(16lb x 80 x 8)/200lb = 51 firkin of Surplus Salt
All fifty one firkin of Salt and some five hundred and sixty firkin of salted fish go to the Baron. The remaining Ration of fish provides the families of the Barony with the fish to take them over the winter.
Fort Doom, a town surrounded by Gardens
2,000 acres are available surrounding Fort Doom to provide each family with their own 1 acre vegetable.
2,000 acres x 25 ton x 0.63
=70,560,000lb of vegetables each year.
Barley & Hay
112 square miles of prime agricultural land is farmed for Barley and Hay. Unfortunately none of it goes to the peasant farmers. Considering the Serfs get a good ration of untaxed Rye, a goodly share of salted fish, and firewood ration as well as the produce of their market gardens, the Baron looks on this as the Tax they didn’t pay.
112 x 640 acres= 71, 680 acres
71,680/3=23,893 acres
Barley: 23,893 acres x 57 bushel x 0.63=857,997 bushels
857,997 x 50lb=42,899,850lb grain
857,997 x 213lb chaff=182,753,361lb barley chaff
Hay: 23,893 acres x 5 ton/ acre= 119,465 ton of Hay
The Barons Knights
In the far south of the estate is 28 square miles of Estates that the baron has issued to his two hundred Knights. Each has a 60 acre estate. The Estate is sufficient to support the Knights, warhorse and their families when in residence. It is here that Bargle the infamous has a nice estate by the sea.
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Barony of Kelvin
Area: 650 square miles
Population: City of Kelvin (20,000 people)
Produce Kelvin Salt tax Church Tithe Farmers
Peat/Fuel 8064 Ton 1152 Ton 806 Ton 11059 Ton
Timber/Fuel 3187 Ton 455 Ton 318 Ton 4371 Ton
Wheat/Grain 2968 Ton 424 Ton 296 Ton 4071 Ton
Barley/Grain 3460 Ton 494 Ton 346 Ton 4746 Ton
Wheat/Chaff 14700 Ton 2100 Ton 1470 Ton 20160 Ton
Barley/Chaff 16338 Ton 2334 Ton 1633 Ton 22407 Ton
Wild Boar 176 Boar 25 Boar 17 Boar 241 Boar
Value 3543826gp 506260gp 354382gp 4860104gp
The Barony has little in the way of farm land. Instead it is very dependent on passing trade. Those few farmers it employs produce sufficient produce to feed and fuel themselves and the Baron’s eight hundred and twenty soldiers, staff and their stabled mounts. That leaves over nineteen thousand people hungry and in the cold that must find the income needed to support themselves and live off food and fuel from outside the estate. Certainly it is a centre of trade and commerce but it is definitely a centre of poverty and exploitation.
Production on the Estate
Peat Farming
1.6 ton/acre (20 x 4 families)
80 ton/day x 6 x 48 weeks
=23,040 ton/year (51,609,600lb)
Logging
3x 20 families
20,000 lb / acre
17 acres / year / family
17 x 20,000 x 60=20,400,000lb
Farming the Strip
Along the river are the only farm lands in the Barony. 600 families are employed in the farming of these 100,000 acres.
Wheat
33,333 acres @ 63% x 20 bushels=419,995 bushels of grain
& 42,000 tons wheat chaff
-1,999,980lb seed=18,999,777lb
Barley
33,333 acres @ 63% x 23 bushels=482,995 bushels of grain
& 46,682 tons barley chaff
-1,999,980lb seed=22,149,770lb
Hunting Boar in the Dymrak
Farming Type Income
Boar Hunting 400gp
Farming the Strip for Grain 17434gp
Peat Mining 6790gp
Woodlot Harvest 10199gp
In this small 168 square mile corner of heavy forest, wild boar can be found at 7 per square miles. There are six families on the edge of the forest who hunt boar for Baron Kelvin. On occasion he does conduct hunting parties. The Baron Black Eagle was most impressed by it.
3 x 168 =504 boars/year
Baron’s income
Baron Kelvin sells a surplus of firewood and fuel peat for income.
Barony Income=312 500gp
Budget (Annual)
Item income
Wages: 200 Heavy Horsemen 126000gp
Wages: 120 Staff & Servants 21600gp
Civil works: City maintenance 120,000gp
Festival Budget 20,900gp
Baron’s annual wage 24,000gp
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Barony of Vorloi
Produce Baron Vorloi Salt Tax Church Tithe Farmers
Timber &
Wood 25,088,000lb 7,168,000lb 4,300,800 lb 35,840,000lb
Cattle 2,800 head 800 head 480 head 4,000 head
Vorloi Sausage 40lb Salted Beef @ Port Vorloi 10gp
An extensive population devoted to the building of Ships.
The Baron’s Timber
Vorloi Shipyards Value
Small Sailing Ship 4000gp
Large Sailing ship 16000gp
While it proved expedient to establish the substantial timber export structures on a scale equal the Marilenev Estate, Baron Phillip Vorloi does not provide this timber to the Fuel hungry Capital of Specularum. Instead, most of it is directed into the Timber is shipped into the timber devouring Thyatian Empire (the remainder to the Vorloi Shipyards).
With 358,400 acres of light forest, there is a managed harvest plan to ensure a permanent supply of Export Timber.
There are 200 families employed across this region, each family harvesting 17 acres of wood per year.
17 acres x 20,000lb = 340,000lb
340,000lb x 20 families x 10 hexes = 71,680,000lb
The Cattle herds
Tended by 400 families over 71,280 acres of reasonably good grazing land, each family runs a herd of 74 cattle
400 families, 178 acres, 74 cattle
71,280 / 1.5 x 0.63=29,938 head
Every year each family sends 20 head to the Docks in Vorloi for Export.
20 x 400= 8,000 head
The Baron’s Sausage
(50lb Meat + 5lb Salt) 2800 head x 1000lb=2,800,000lb
56,000 preserved sausages (40lb each)
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Karameikos and Specularum
You can run the numbers on all the baronies, the population and where they must be employed etc. In the end you find that it takes 57 hexes of devoted forest with 1700 acre woodlots for firewood just to fuel Specularum. ten thousand wagons to move it.
Conceivably the entire populace of Mirros must be employed as porters to bring in the firewood fuel, and food required to keep it going.
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The numbers are important. They tell you that the economy described in the Kingdom off Karameikos cannot support even the urban population of Mirros(60,000) with something as simple as fuel. Sure they get that food, but how in the world do you cook without fuel? At best they have the capacity to support 1/6th of the urban populace of the capital.
Kelvin city with 25,000 has a food and fuel shortfall so staggering it cant support 20,000 of the people living in it's walls. Kelvin produces to feed its troops, servants, and farmers. Nothing for the remaining 20 thousand.
The land exists to support the populace but not in towns and cities.
Even the peasants of the Estate of Penhaligon detailed in the novels as flagwaving loyalists in the shadow of a castle of Knights are a sick, diseased population who are dependant on sheep, and are poisoned along with their ground water by the continuous tanning of hides. They dont even produce necessary food and fuel.
The Totalitarian regime of the Black Eagle Barony is better prepared to feed the populace (even if it is rationed).
The Aristo's derided and scorned as Evil are infact the rulers of the better and most efficient economies.
Frankly there is a different picture of Karameikos here: One of continuous famine and disease ruled by an unconcerned Aristocracy. Certainly not the "Great King Sephan Karameikos III", try Stephan the Parasite.
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The problem with all this number crunching is that it assumes a standard non-magical economy. "Magic" could have a big impact on all of these things - clerics praying for good weather, and getting it; improved hygiene (all D&D cities have sewers); cure disease; magic saving labour in building things, making things, cooking things.
The OP seems very knowledgable on the subject of medieval economies in the real world. But D&D is not the real world in lots of ways. And, while realism of this sort is great in your game if you like that sort of thing, not many DMs really pay anything more than a passing interest to the economy (me included). The game is more about heroic adventure than bookkeeping. While economic factors can be an element in a campaign (merchant guild wars, for example) I don't think many people really want to go there in this level of detail.
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I agree to a point. I also feel that what yellowdingo is doing is a perfect framework to build upon to add magic to the economic environment. Before you can understand what magic could do for you, you have to understand what the environment is like without its presence. I think some of the best sci fi is crafted in such a way.
The first thing I could think of is a plant growth spell immediately before harvest....maybe a cabal of crazy inventer wizards trying to solve the world's famine problems.
Director of Narrative
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I am in the camp that totally appreciates these posts. I think they provide a great skeleton to the fleshy parts that most players enjoy. I always feel much more comfortable presenting a region when I have it fully thought/fleshed out even if the players will never stumble into all the things that make it up.
Maybe I missed it, but what "world" are these figures generated for? Real world?
Actually I'd like to see a further statistical breakdown involving the magical aid Aubrey mentioned. Praying to the right gods will deliver optimum grow conditions at a low price, but casting control weather would be exhorbitant and not as useful on a daily basis. (Though it certainly saves a crop if one can magically bat away tornadic activity on its approach)
Imagine a magical mattock passed down through a farming family. That would cut way back on plow time.
These magical factors would have to be carefully reasoned. Such as, if plants grow in perfect weather with perfect levels of moisture and nutrients, how much bigger would they be than regular plants? Either locate some such study or make an assumption like +30% yield.
I don't think D&D is about one thing specifically. I think it's what we make of it. If a DM has these crop statistics ready to fire he can have NPCs in the know blather them at high speed and make the players feel more immersed in this world, and perhaps a bit ignorant. I think most felt awe when we realized that the world was so much bigger than ourselves. You can inspire that same wonder in the game.
What would be real nice would be an ox that could double in size to do the plowing, then shrink down to the size of a pup for feeding.
Or a figurine of wondrous plowing you didn't have to feed at all.
Like arcane bovine growth hormone.
Gnomes could build huge mechanical threshers. Huge one time cost but then you're good to go. Such high-magic/mechanized additions would cause the medieval statistical breakdowns in a fantasy world to have to carefully consider a modern farming statistical breakdown, because the results, with magic added, would probably look more like the genetically engineered horrorshow that is fat-output modern farming.
Considering only a rich kingdom could likely afford such a set up while a poor one would still be using sticks, it's just another example of the rich getting richer.
The first thing I could think of is a plant growth spell immediately before harvest....maybe a cabal of crazy inventer wizards trying to solve the world's famine problems.
In my homebrew campaign, the presence of dinosaurs is the result of a well-intentioned wizard trying to put an end to hunger ("think of how many people a brontosaurus would feed! And supported by an unfarmable swamp!"). Yeah, it's a "Jurassic Park" ripoff, but the players loved it when the dinosaurs got loose and there were packs of velociraptors skulking in back alleys and a tyrannosaur holding up traffic on main street.
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But, of course, all of this would have a profound effect upon the economy. Technological changes in agriculture have had a profound impact in our world, so magic is likely to have a similar effect in a fantasy world. That said, it could certainly be fun to think of ways where you get from the "real world" base case of grinding rural poverty to the magical kingdom with its fully fed cities, using possible magical strategies, like those suggested (not entirely seriously) above. And this could be fuel for adventure ideas. But most players probably would not be interested in the nitty-gritty.
But most players probably would not be interested in the nitty-gritty.
Unless their characters themselves came from a squalorous land of rampant famine. Traveling abroad to where da rich folks at and working to acquire or steal such magical farming techniques/equipment and bring them home to save their people would make them the Peter the Greats of their land. Rather than adventuring purely for personal gain, they're adventuring to save up for the gnome-mobile. (Thresher and plow attachments sold seperately)
You raise a good point. The effect on the world. A storyline centered around one superabundant kingdom drawing the attention of dangerous and skinny rival nations would be a potent one. Spies! Incursions! Rhubarab!
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The problem with all this number crunching is that it assumes a standard non-magical economy. "Magic" could have a big impact on all of these things - clerics praying for good weather, and getting it; improved hygiene (all D&D cities have sewers); cure disease; magic saving labour in building things, making things, cooking things.
The OP seems very knowledgable on the subject of medieval economies in the real world. But D&D is not the real world in lots of ways. And, while realism of this sort is great in your game if you like that sort of thing, not many DMs really pay anything more than a passing interest to the economy (me included). The game is more about heroic adventure than bookkeeping. While economic factors can be an element in a campaign (merchant guild wars, for example) I don't think many people really want to go there in this level of detail.
Oddly karameikos is one of those not so rare regimes where the peasants grown their own food without magical and clerical help.
So medieval agriculture is what you have.Even in Alphatia where the ruling class was top heavy with magicusers, slaves still toiled to grow the crops while wizards wasted resources on flying ships and castles.
Sure a famine means nothing to the Wizard of Puuk with her ever-full bowl of popcorn, but the only know Agricultural magic is fertilize field and that is in a single Empire in the Hollow World (an isolated part of the Mystara Setting).
So magic probably keeps agricultural efficiency in the Milenian Empire from slipping from 63% to 35%.
well, it is easier just to think of it this way; a carefully planned 5 acre plot of average soil will grow enough to feed a single person for a year; using land for animals makes it less effecient, but provides other advantages as one single cow will require much more land for fodder. Most village and city folk ate much fewer calories per day than the average rural farmer which of course increased the likelyhood of the onset of disease augmented by dirtier living conditions. Add things like hunting, fishing or collection of wild fruits, berries and other harvestables would increase the caloric number decreasing the amount of aridable land needed for survival. Excees land would provide surplus as some years would be heavier or lighter than others, but if you just use a figure of 5 acres it will work out real enough for anyone interested in middle age agriculure and modify it by how rich the soil is for the region.
Most village and city folk ate much fewer calories per day than the average rural farmer which of course increased the likelyhood of the onset of disease augmented by dirtier living conditions.
People mistakenly believe that everyone was shorter in the old days but
the farmers in England in the year 1000 AD were six foot tall and strapping. It was the poor nutrition and poverty that came from city dwelling and plague that contributed to our downsizing.|
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well, it is easier just to think of it this way; a carefully planned 5 acre plot of average soil will grow enough to feed a single person for a year; using land for animals makes it less effecient, but provides other advantages as one single cow will require much more land for fodder. Most village and city folk ate much fewer calories per day than the average rural farmer which of course increased the likelyhood of the onset of disease augmented by dirtier living conditions. Add things like hunting, fishing or collection of wild fruits, berries and other harvestables would increase the caloric number decreasing the amount of aridable land needed for survival. Excees land would provide surplus as some years would be heavier or lighter than others, but if you just use a figure of 5 acres it will work out real enough for anyone interested in middle age agriculure and modify it by how rich the soil is for the region.
Thats very iffy vale', It takes about that to graze a sheep to provide the annual 2&1/2lb wool for your clothing. The assumption that you can live off 5 acres is neglecting the other necessities like firewood to cook your food, build and maintain shelter, provide vegetables, grain for flour for bread, freerange the hens, and the horrorfying reality that you pay a large percentage of what you produce in tax to support the ruling classes.
In Karameikos the peasant farmers pay out fifty percent of what they produce in tax to the monarchy. So suddenly you would be farming ten acres and living off five acres.
Doing twice the labour you need more carbohydrates, starches, fats, protiens, so you no longer live off 5 acres anyhow.
Suddenly you are at ten acres with the extra ten acres in tax. And you are still naked and foulsmelling when the Barons Baliffs ride into your village.
So there you are, naked and smelly when oops you knock up a woman and suddenly you are farming for two with a third on the way.
So Naked, smelly and living in sin, you are now working 40 acres.
Hearing of your fornication, the priest from the next town marches in and marries you both. Of course he collects a tithe for his services. So you find yourself carting bricks each saturday to help build his church.
Once again you find yourself in need of more clothing so you buy some sheep for the wool and pay them off in food.
Now you are working eighty acres for the benifit of fourty, bad back, wife turned ugly at twenty five when she came down with rickets, a child who looks suspiciously like your neighbour, and your roving eye has spotted that hot young thirteen year old who just came of marital age. And her smelly old dad would love to marry you off to merge property but your wife survived the rickets and will probably live longer than you.
A quick bit of jigerypokery and your second (and unwed) wife (age 13) is also up the duff, you die at thirty working a hundred acres and your wives get kicked off the land.
That is Medieval life for you.
I love this! Granted the business end stuff closer to the front pretty well convinced me that I would die in the middle ages since it all just blurred together and made me feel kinda' woozy (numbers ain't my thing either.) But the latter posts that gave the real gritty meat and potatoes of how these numbers translate into real lives of folks--that is stuff I just can't get enough of.
I'm interested in more prose about the living conditions of more folks, urban and rural. I hear a lot about how cruddy life was in the city, but very little about what if anything was good about it or what people there did on a day to day basis. More lifestyle stuff! It's awesome.
The "life of the naked smelly farmer" post was great.
it is really not all that iffy; consider that farming does not really take all the much time during various parts of the year; it is labor intensive at others, but during most of the growing cycle of 5 to 12 weeks depending on the plant; you have lots of time for gathering alternate supplements for intake. Back in the MA, they didnt have super grains and whatnot that we have now so certainly now not only do machines make the difference, but the plants are different and yeild much much higher disease and insect resistant produce. As a historian, I have done a somewhat fair study of this and find it to be accurate enough for general use as a rule and is certainly a whole lot closer that what the game recommends for things like ship movement for example. We would say that people in the middle ages lives lives with caloric intakes generally less than our own; the first sucker to start the family farm for example was in trouble; but by the third generation it had a fairly large expanse of land and diverse crops and beasts. The simple invention of the horse collar changed farming worldwide as a horse can pull a plow farther than a bull can in a day; but a horse cannot wear the more ancient bull collar as it choked him; when this invention became widespread, the same communities were able to produce more crops; I could name several more inventions that make a big difference though to us they are no brainers. If you are a guy with only a sharp stick as a planting tool as was true for many people in Europe, 5 acres is about what you can handle. Even if greater technology exists; this doesnt mean you can afford it or have it or know how to use it. Iron plowhead were not common even in the 1400's though that is way beyond the iron age. So many thins make a difference that you can get distracted from the whole point of gaming;
just use the 5 acre rule of thumb and apply modifiers for tech, land; number and duration of growing cycles, skill of workers, ease of watering, and stuff like that. I doubt many d&ders are really concerned with which grains grow in what types of soil; or what doesnt grow in wet areas and what doesnt grow in dry areas and what does, of course it is all available for anyone who wants to know; just keep in mind that everything we have now is a hybrid of something from back several centuries and has had tens if not hundreds of years of improvements.
life was cruddy in the middle ages; but it was fairly nice in the classic era; consider that in the US; we only surpassed the living conditions of the Roman Empire at about 1928, something to think about. If you study hunter/gatherer socieites like I have; you will probably stop and say; wow were we stupid; the average hunter/gatherer society spent less that 4 hours a day gathering/consuming food and spent the rest of the day in leisure time and most cultures had very advance games and society activities for harmony and fun. Heck, most of us spend 3 or more hours a day eating/gathering/cooking meals and spend 8 or more hours a day working for that and our societies are fractured and have poor social interaction with vast numbers of outsiders and lonely people; not something that really happened in any hunter/gatherer society.
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life was cruddy in the middle ages; but it was fairly nice in the classic era; consider that in the US; we only surpassed the living conditions of the Roman Empire at about 1928, something to think about. If you study hunter/gatherer socieites like I have; you will probably stop and say; wow were we stupid; the average hunter/gatherer society spent less that 4 hours a day gathering/consuming food and spent the rest of the day in leisure time and most cultures had very advance games and society activities for harmony and fun. Heck, most of us spend 3 or more hours a day eating/gathering/cooking meals and spend 8 or more hours a day working for that and our societies are fractured and have poor social interaction with vast numbers of outsiders and lonely people; not something that really happened in any hunter/gatherer society.
I love the Roman stuff...there is a very famous legal dispute in Roman history in which an estate of 13 farms is valued in the millions...
And I know Hunter-gatherers. My favourite in the Neolithic community of Catal Huyuk. Beginnings of domestication, urban living, pottery, trade (surplus Wools for Obsidian-with the Obsidian Scroungers of Kara Dag). Perhaps I'll Post the Economics on that.
Did you know the Government of Catal Huyuk was a Commonwealth? 9000BC-5000BC Oldest known government: 4,000 years of Commonwealth, before every thing goes poo and the community is abandoned and the populace move off the plateau to Babylon to Establish Sumeria/Babylonia under the rule of a Priest-King.
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it is really not all that iffy; consider that farming does not really take all the much time during various parts of the year; it is labor intensive at others, but during most of the growing cycle of 5 to 12 weeks depending on the plant; you have lots of time for gathering alternate supplements for intake. Back in the MA, they didnt have super grains and whatnot that we have now so certainly now not only do machines make the difference, but the plants are different and yeild much much higher disease and insect resistant produce. As a historian, I have done a somewhat fair study of this and find it to be accurate enough for general use as a rule and is certainly a whole lot closer that what the game recommends for things like ship movement for example. We would say that people in the middle ages lives lives with caloric intakes generally less than our own; the first sucker to start the family farm for example was in trouble; but by the third generation it had a fairly large expanse of land and diverse crops and beasts. The simple invention of the horse collar changed farming worldwide as a horse can pull a plow farther than a bull can in a day; but a horse cannot wear the more ancient bull collar as it choked him; when this invention became widespread, the same communities were able to produce more crops; I could name several more inventions that make a big difference though to us they are no brainers. If you are a guy with only a sharp stick as a planting tool as was true for many people in Europe, 5 acres is about what you can handle. Even if greater technology exists; this doesnt mean you can afford it or have it or know how to use it. Iron plowhead were not common even in the 1400's though that is way beyond the iron age. So many thins make a difference that you can get distracted from the whole point of gaming;
just use the 5 acre rule of thumb and apply modifiers for tech, land; number and duration of growing cycles, skill of workers, ease of watering, and stuff like that. I doubt many d&ders are really...
I can agree with that in part. That level of Agriculture (oddly more primitive than the neolithic farmers)can get you below subsistence yields. But over on the managed estates, the aristocracy have tool sheds with better, sharper sticks just so they can get better yields in Tax. If inovation is going to happen it is going to happen on the estates and not so much on the "freehold farms".
This is absolutely one of the greatest threads I have ever encountered. As someone who is actively trying to build a "family farm" in this modern age, I'm learning a lot about how "they" had to live as well as how thoroughly our modern system sucks in many ways.
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This is absolutely one of the greatest threads I have ever encountered. As someone who is actively trying to build a "family farm" in this modern age, I'm learning a lot about how "they" had to live as well as how thoroughly our modern system sucks in many ways.
Might i suggest A huge woodlot so you can survive...Actually that will be how it happens in the future. After the oil runs ous and the gas runs out, You will need to give up that city residence and sell firewood to the local powerstation.
Profession (produce electricity): A Building of Exercise bikes each turning a motor to generate electricity. Completely urbanized power production. The rider gets paid for what energy they put back into the grid.
We own just over 4 acres and are 17 miles out of town. The land across the road from us (hundreds of acres) is owned by a paper-mill company. 500+ acres next to us on our side is owned by an individual whose family has owned it for many years. So far, so good...
We have goats, chickens, and rabbits with plenty of land to run them all on once I finish clearing the trees. Should be...interesting.
In addition, should this prove...untenable, my dad's family owns 30 acres about 60 miles south of us. *That* property is surrounded by a national forest. ;)
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We own just over 4 acres and are 17 miles out of town. The land across the road from us (hundreds of acres) is owned by a paper-mill company. 500+ acres next to us on our side is owned by an individual whose family has owned it for many years. So far, so good...
We have goats, chickens, and rabbits with plenty of land to run them all on once I finish clearing the trees. Should be...interesting.
In addition, should this prove...untenable, my dad's family owns 30 acres about 60 miles south of us. *That* property is surrounded by a national forest. ;)
Four Acres? That grazes one milking ewe.
Dont clear all your trees, just your five metre wide firebreak inside the boundary fence and leave it grow in the bottom of gullies, to maintain bush corridors for wildlife.-talk to the next guy about whether he has a wildlife corridor of trees so you can align with that...
4 acres near a paper mill or a papermill woodlot? Let me inform you of a little town in a place called Tasmania...Bernie is a small town totally employed by the Papermill on the hill. The Air is toxic, the water is toxic, the soil is toxic...
Now that the timber lot people have started using an insecticide on the wood lots prior to harvest, the lukemia and cancer rate jumped. It is also what is destroying the Tasmanian Devils.
Frankly that kind of "destroy what gets in your way" capitalism just disgusts me to no end.