He can and should do that if he is actually on top. You all seem to misunderstand the gravity of the situation - a fantasy army under the lawful rule of a paladin on its way to save this or that. Deserters risk the war and their comrades. The trader PC risks the commander's authority. All of those people are completely in the wrong if the army is trying to do something important.It isn't like this army is on its way home from the end of the war, or holding territory against no known threat. It is doing something important and the situation is grave.
Actually, I think you fail to understand the dynamics of the situation. Sounds to me more like the army's something of a coalition with the elves being something of an ally militia and not a single, unified regular army. You can't exert that kind of, for lack of a better term, discipline on a group like that. You'll never successfully hold them together with an iron fist. I'd say the paladin's behavior was not only anti-code, but blatantly stupid as well. I can easily imagine the elves being done with the coalition after a blunder like that.
Bill Dunn speaks sense.
So your argument is a friendly history is more important than the stability of the army, that lawful good people can't do what is necessary to maintain the authority of their command, and that it is much more reasonable to impose modern civilian ethics on a fantasy wartime society than it is to apply the internal logic of the situation.
How long do lawful good rulers last in your games? I'd guess a week.
Did I say that? Let me check... nope. Looks like I was saying the paladin's actions were totally out of line for a Lawful GOOD character in the situation being discussed.
Bruno's suggestion is absolutely correct, however; we can agree on that. Having characters kill each other can be wonderful story elements when thoroughly discussed and planned. Otherwise, it's about the worst thing that can happen in-game at your table, in terms of everyone walking away happy with how they chose to spend the last few hours of the evening.
Here's a sincere question for you: Tell me how, in your games, you see the paladin's actions differing from the actions of hypothetically LN or LE characters in his place. I think some of us have different alignment interpretations here, and examining them might help get at some of the roots of the disagreements at hand.
Actually, we could back up and ask who the paladin's deity was. That would give some real insight as to how the paladin should have proceeded. I have to say, though, that most LG deities are pretty big on the compassion and understanding thing.
I'd like to point out again that this incident didn't happen during a battle where the elves said "hey, too many of us are dying and we'd like to leave now." Which has been known to happen anyway in mixed/coalition forces. This was in camp where there was time to hold a trial and execute the traitor if need be. My point is that a paladin should be like a police officer (should be) - rarely should a person whose primary concern is for the greater good and welfare of others above his own personal feelings or situation simply stalk up to someone and summarily execute them.
And, because it was a coalition of allied forces technically the "deserters" are now their own government's problem. And they just happen to be at home. Where they can face the wrath of their rightful liege in person.
I do recall, however, that intelligence isn't a primary attribute of the paladin class. On the other hand, wisdom should be somewhere in the mix. The wise man does not slaughter his allies needlessly or in the heat of an emotional moment.
I also fail to see where throwing the "traitor" in chains is somehow less effective than summary execution amongst supposedly Good peoples. Especially if it leads to a public trial where all details are aired and everyone understands exactly what happened to cause the hub bub. And THEN you sentence him to death - and hold a public execution. Being seen as a hot-head after your poor judgment has caused the deaths of a significant number of your allies is just throwing gasoline on a fire.
Definitely doesn't fit my idea of a paladin. Cutting a defenseless man down in anger is certainly an Evil act.
You know - that sums up what I've been trying so incoherently to say.
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"This is what my character would do is", is often the defense of many a douche-bag player. From the paladin that cuts down his own teammate to the "CN" rogue that steals from his own party. Here is an idea, why not come with a valid roleplaying reason for you not to have your character act like a total douche-bag to his allies, the other players' characters, just a crazy idea.
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Definitely doesn't fit my idea of a paladin. Cutting a defenseless man down in anger is certainly an Evil act.You know - that sums up what I've been trying so incoherently to say.
*tips hat* I live to serve.
Cranewings: You keep harping on 'losing authority' but I just don't see any such risk. Maybe I need to read the elf players post. But as I understand it, the paladin was in charge only because he stepped up to it. He had no actual authority. And killing the elf lost him all of his authority, because no one is going to follow such a commander willingly.
I'm still not on board with the paladin in the original situation.
Paladins are always played as total asses under the excuse that they're holy warriors or some such. They're basically clerics with more focus on combat and less on spellcraft. If your campaign has some sort of Order that they must belong to, so be it - your Code should be clearly spelled out in black and white so that the paladin doesn't have the option to add personal caveats to it. Either he follows the dictates of his religion and code or he loses his status.
I'd just like to point out that being a champion of "justice" does not necessarily make one "good." True justice is usually unpleasant for all parties involved and can have consequences that would make a truly just society far from compassionate. Compassion is the noble portion of the "good" alignment - the desire to understand and help others.
Where the paladin in this situation loses me is his total and complete lack of concern for the well-being of others, beginning with his failure to handle the discontent of his elven allies. From the sound if it he left his archers without sufficient infantry support and they took a beating because of his poor judgment.
My douche-bag defense is that "my paladin would never slay a defenseless person unless directly commanded to in the role of executioner." I've never played a paladin who was rash and quick to anger - wisdom is a broader virtue than patience. What's funny is that my paladins are where I role-play most because my own personality is more hot-tempered and rash.
the act was lawful neutral to the hilt, the selfish intent behind it was evil. the lack of a second thought was coldhearted.
we shouldn't be making him a blackguard either.
you need to create a lawful neutral variation of the paladin with smite Chaos, Detect Chaos, An Axiomatic Mount, and a special lay on hands that heals the lawful and harms the chaotic.
this guy should automatically become an inevetable in the afterlife
this guy may be selfish, but he showed a "Robotic" devotion to order, cold, efficient, thoughtless, heartless, aggressive, and psychotic devotion to Order beyond all else. he should be fighting a war against Anarchy.
this guy would greatly recieve Irori's blessing for he is the incarnation of order in it's purest form.
example aspects can be borrowed from Makoto Shishio and Byakuya Kuchiki.
order supersedes everything and this guy should be automatically nauseated every time he enters the maelstrom or other chaotic plane with no save. any lawful plane should treat him as under the effects of a heroism spell.
you need to create a lawful neutral variation of the paladin with smite Chaos, Detect Chaos, An Axiomatic Mount, and a special lay on hands that heals the lawful and harms the chaotic.
You know, I always wondered why there was not a variant for every alignment. Don't other deities have champions? I suppose that's what the Forgotten Realms (and others) tried to compensate for with prestige classes centered around certain deities' chosen ones, but that just seemed sort of tacked on.
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Wow, you sure miss a lot when you don't go online for a few weeks (Wizards, Paizo, Pathfinder, etc)
As the elf in question, here's the rest of the story: My elf was pure CG, he ignored or worked around given orders almost all the time, but always to do what he saw as beneficial to the greatest number of people (and usually without anyone knowing that he hadn't 'followed orders').
So you have a history of disobeying orders and lying about it.
You let your soldiers desert the army.Seems like your character is purposely created to cause a Paladin issues.
WTF
A CG character that does everything to benefit others and manages to keep his rule breaking out the paladin's sight is exactly the sort of CG character most paladin players would be grateful to have around.
And again, this seems to keep getting ignored:
- Elven nation asked the party to lead their forces for the battle.
- This incident was after the battle.
- The elves suffered heavy losses. Many elven troops held those losses against one party member(not the paladin or the elf) and spurned his company.
- Elf player was looking after his people. Tried to make peace, and led the troops in their cultural funeral rites.
- Paladin gets butthurt over elves being upset about so many deaths and crashes the funeral ceremony.
- Elf tried to keep things calm and tried to talk to the paladin.
- Paladin got even more butthurt and threatened the elf.
- Elven troops are UNDERSTANDABLY WORRIED since a megalomaniac is apparently in charge.
- Elf sends those who want to leave away and tells the rest to NOT retaliate if worst comes to worst, because he doesn't want a race war on his hands.
- Paladin HERP DERPS.
- Elf stands firm but doesn't fight back, because he doesn't want a race war.
- Paladin HERPITY DERPITY DER.
- Paladin not only doesn't bring the army into line, he has now come damn close to STARTING A RACE WAR.
- Paladin rage quits. Leaves the party with a possible race war on their hands. If the race war didn't happen, guess who's to thank for that?
This is not the behavior of a paladin.
This is the behavior of one who wishes to be smite-punched in the mouth by a paladin.
Elf dude was a bro. And apparently a hell of a lot more capable of thinking of the bigger picture than Sir Niedermeyer.
Personally? If I had been playing paladin I would have at most arrested him and let his people judge him. Of course it wouldn't have come to that to begin with since no paladin, or any good character, that I've ever played would go around crashing funerals and threatening party members for trying to make peace.
Dragon #310 had variant paladin classes for other alignments.
Yeah, the idea has been played with for 25 years but I haven't seen one that I like yet and none of them have made it into core or even optionals like PHB2.
none of them have made it into core or even optionals like PHB2.
Check out 3e Unearthed Arcana -- and the same content is available on line through the 3.5 SRD. There are paladins of freedom (CG), tyranny (LE), and slaughter (CE).
Check out 3e Unearthed Arcana -- and the same content is available on line through the 3.5 SRD. There are paladins of freedom (CG), tyranny (LE), and slaughter (CE).
Wow, don't know how I missed that - thanks!
Check out 3e Unearthed Arcana -- and the same content is available on line through the 3.5 SRD. There are paladins of freedom (CG), tyranny (LE), and slaughter (CE).Wow, don't know how I missed that - thanks!
I've read through this thread with great interest. I'm seeing alot of responses saying that this was not Lawful Good behavior. Some agreeing with the Paladin's actions with hedges.
However, I am of the opinion that the Paladin's behavior was spot on and perfectly Lawful and Good given the situation. Moreover, his actions were justified given the description of the events in question by the CG Elf that was executed:
We were in the middle of an epic campaign (epic story, not epic level). The reclusive elven nations had been convinced to take part in a large scale war and were put under the 'command' of the paladin, who broke them up into smaller fighting units and put them under the command of the rest of the PC's.
Middle of an Epic campaign (a war) vs. what I presume was evil.
The Lawful part: The elf was insubordinate, as well as traitorous. He personally dismantled the fighting strength of the Army that was commanded by the Paladin at the behest of the Elven Nation. This is treason. Even in our current day, this is a charge that merits a death penalty.
The Good Part: As the commander of this army vs evil, he had a traitorous commander that literally 'gave aid and comfort to the enemy. By reducing the fighting forces arrayed against them (aka the bad guys).
In military commands in war zones (as this was), summary executions for treasonous behavior are par for the course and very proper/lawful.
The Paladin did what he did in order to (in his judgement as commander) maintain the fighting strength of the army under his command in order to fight a war vs. evil -- which according to the description given by the executed character, wasn't done.
"Good" is not defined as specific moments in time with a micro focus on metagaming elements (PC vs PC), but in character given the larger world events occurring.
The Paladin did what was right and proper.
If anything, the ranger should have his alignment shifted towards neutral given his actions.
Dude. If I was an elf, in an army, and some "paladin" pulled something like that, I would riddle him with arrows; because he's obviously posessed by ass demons.
Agreed.800 elves with bows > one ass demon posessed Pally.
A well played Pally is awesome, however most are played as Lawful Stupid. This is an excellent case in point.
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Wow, you sure miss a lot when you don't go online for a few weeks (Wizards, Paizo, Pathfinder, etc)
As the elf in question, here's the rest of the story: My elf was pure CG, he ignored or worked around given orders almost all the time, but always to do what he saw as beneficial to the greatest number of people (and usually without anyone knowing that he hadn't 'followed orders').
So you have a history of disobeying orders and lying about it.
You let your soldiers desert the army.Seems like your character is purposely created to cause a Paladin issues.
WTF
A CG character that does everything to benefit others and manages to keep his rule breaking out the paladin's sight is exactly the sort of CG character most paladin players would be grateful to have around.
And again, this seems to keep getting ignored:
...
- Elven nation asked the party to lead their forces for the battle.
Bravo
- This incident was after the battle.
- The elves suffered heavy losses. Many elven troops held those losses against one party member(not the paladin or the elf) and spurned his company.
- Elf player was looking after his people. Tried to make peace, and led the troops in their cultural funeral rites.
- Paladin gets butthurt over elves being upset about so many deaths and crashes the funeral ceremony.
- Elf tried to keep things calm and tried to talk to the paladin.
- Paladin got even more butthurt and threatened the elf.
- Elven troops are UNDERSTANDABLY WORRIED since a megalomaniac is apparently in charge.
- Elf sends those who want to leave away and tells the rest to NOT retaliate if worst comes to worst, because he doesn't want a race war on his hands.
- Paladin HERP DERPS.
- Elf stands firm but doesn't fight back, because he doesn't want a race war.
- Paladin HERPITY DERPITY DER.
- Paladin not only doesn't bring the army into line, he has now come damn close to STARTING
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It's hard to say for certain, and I'm not sure the OP and his player are still around to comment. Just another paladin argument. :)Which makes me sad. I really wanted to know how things developed afterwards.
Let me know if you are still interested and I will be happy to tell you how the campaign played out.
It's hard to say for certain, and I'm not sure the OP and his player are still around to comment. Just another paladin argument. :)Which makes me sad. I really wanted to know how things developed afterwards.
Well, it's been a LONG time since it happened, but one of the things that happened was that I was given the Risen Martyr prestige class (from BoED) and continued my 'quest' in that manner. The rest of the story will have to come from Zealot...
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Let me know if you are still interested and I will be happy to tell you how the campaign played out.
I do love a good story. :)
Well, it's been a LONG time since it happened, but one of the things that happened was that I was given the Risen Martyr prestige class (from BoED) and continued my 'quest' in that manner. The rest of the story will have to come from Zealot...
*fistbump* Risen Martyr for the win! Had a character come back for a campaign finale with that class. :)
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Ok so gather around and let me spin my tale....
So getting up to this part of our tale I must tell you that we spent a year and 3 months playing this campaign. A core group of 4 people and 3 satellite players that came and went. The core group of characters were about 18th level. They had travelled to the North to find a lost Mythal and find the secret of High Magic. They spent alot of time travelling the known world and preventing the rebirth of a lost dark god Erebus.(yes the same one out of the Dragon Mags)The Paladin had become the "leader of the group because we thought it would pretty much stop his monkey wrenching if he had something invested in the story. So there was alot of back story to this. The army they were facing was made up of Ice Elves (yes the ones from 1st ed) with a very evil bent to them and a number of Drow sheltered from the light by the Dark god's power. Ok so here goes.
After the incident with the beheading, the paladin left. His mount deserted him and he lost his status. The player was upset because I wouldnt allow him to bring in a high level character to replace his paladin. He was also a wee bit put off that I would not stop our gaming session to start him on a quest for redemption. BTW his next preposed character was a Minotaur ranger.... So the player left.
Now picture this, the elves seeing one of their heroes beheaded were furious. Also according to the wishes of the same elf, they offered up no violence. The Half elf wizardess and the Elven knight did their best to calm things down. The elf was laid in his campaign tent and they started to sing the song of mourning. With the rising of the sun the elven contingent prepared to withdraw with the body of their hero. As they approached the tent he walked out whole and healthy.
In Game terms, he had come back as a Risen Martyr out of the Book of Exalted Deeds. Fyraxis who posts on here was running his character the whole campaign, a more of a role playing experience and less of a power gamer. He took feats from the Quintessential Elf 1 and 2 that made his character have a special undefined destiny. He actually took feats that were more for the story and the fleshing out of his character.
So in the next battle I gave the elves a bonus due to Morale and their new captain lead them to victory. The dwarven contingent and the Human knights did well and everyone's dice were on fire. In the end an outnumbered and desperate coalition army fought off the threat. The reamaining player characters went on to find a missing race of elves and confronted the unborn and weakened form of the god Erebus. Trust me it was still more than a handful for them.
That as they say is that.....
I do so love a satisfying ending...
I want Razor Coast...