Hello All,
My current homebrew campaign is wrapping up, and my players want to begin one of the adventure paths. Which of the three has your recommendation for being the most fun and why? Which was the hardest to GM and why? Did you find any glaring pitfalls that were hard to resolve because of roleplaying plausibility or the CR was off significantly? Were the magic items offered by the AP sufficient to complete it or did you have to pad your AP?
Also, what did you do with your PCs after they finished the AP? Did you shelf them? Did your players have any problems designing PCs whose game-life would be limited to the AP? My campaigns tend to last years of real time.
Thanks for all the input in advance.
Cheers!
I bought the shackled city AP in hardcover. Didnt like it. Older format. No adventure Synopses, a little to bland (same city, lots of dungeons UNDER the city) and a little hard to run.
Just finishing up Age of worms. Loved it. Period. It was incredible. If you run it I have 2 suggestions.
1. Dont Introduce the worms until the later adventures (till around level 12-15) Gets kinda boring with the whole worm thing for 20 levels. Dont change the adventures, they were all gold. But just try and lessen the worminess in the first 10 levels or so (e.g. change the "hooks" so the first adventures have nothing to do with worms).
2. Stay in greyhawk for longer than the AP tells you to. Swap the town of Alhaster into Greyhawk. While your at it by the sourcebook "Greyhawk: The Adventure begins" its a great tool to make the city feel real.
Haven't played savage tide.
a quick reply, probably not as complete as you'd like, but it's all I've got time for:
I found Shackled City did not fit my preferred style. There are certain "oversights" throughout. For example, the archvillain's secret identity and his true identity both go by the same name (easily fixed, it's true, but one of many similar minor oversights). Also, unless your PCs are min-maxers, I found certain fights to be somewhat too tough. Also, I had some difficulties finding plausible reasons for certain twists in the plot. However, if your players prefer an AP based in a single location and like city adventures, this is the one for you.
The Age of Worms best fits my preferred play style, and the plot is clear and tight. I didn't have to fill any loopholes, and had no difficulty creating plausible reasons for the various NPCs' relationships. The AP focuses on classic-style adventuring rather than roleplaying (which is fine by me), but if your players prefer dungeon-delving, this is the one for you. The only significant difficulties I've had involve timing. Later episodes of the AP require your players to move quickly, sometimes with too little time to rest. On several occasions I had to provide them with time off or engineer circumstances to get them moving.
I haven't finished the Savage Tide, obviously, but it shows a lot of promise. The AP requires significantly more roleplaying than other APs, so if that's what your players like then this is the one for you. I've had some difficulty getting the party moving in the right direction due to the "looseness" of the early episodes, primarily because they're hardcore dungeon-delvers and weak on roleplaying. Also, they've expressed some resentment toward the relative lack of dungeons to explore. Other than that, I really like the way the AP builds on various old-school adventures and themes. Also, this AP is somewhat more "raw" than others, morally speaking. Since some of my players are younger (and I am still a minister, after all), I've had to tone down certain NPCs and situations out of respect for them. Scuttlecove in particular took some real effort in this regard.
If you've got enough Dungeon back-issues to draw upon, I might recommend putting something together from past one-shot adventures. I'm currently running a group through a Greyhawk campaign cobbled together from the "Seeds of Sehan" series, the "Istivin" series, "Mad God's Key", and other Greyhawk-based adventures. Hopefully, we'll soon get into the "Maure Castle" adventures. What a pity that "Expedition to the Ruins of Greyhawk" isn't out yet.
Hope I've been helpful.
Only played 2 episodes of Shackled City, and my hardcover hasn't arrived yet, so I can't comment substantively on that one yet except to say that there are some cool urban roleplaying possibilities and encounters.
Age of Worms totally rocks--and Skech, I know you've done an extended campaign based around the Istivin arc--if you're a GH fan, this AP has all kinds of goodness to offer--it makes Greyhawk fresh and enjoyable again, with enough nostalgic goodness combined with considerable creativity. There are a couple of adventures that are a bit heavy on the dungeon crawl, but most of the crawling can be easily broken up. There are a few dungeon segments meant to be taken in one day's adventuring, and thus to stretch the party's resources to the utmost, but the biggest ones are easy to enter and exit at will (well, unless you get stuck in a trap), and can be broken up with sessions of roleplay as PCs sell loot, research the strange things they've found, etc. There are excellent backdrops on three major urban locations featured in the path, and it would be easy to use Sasserine or Cauldron from the other APs as jumping off points for the assault on the Spire of Long Shadows, as that dungeon is supposed to be not far away in the GH setting. This means there is plenty of roleplaying to be had with minimal creation necessary on the DM's part. I'd have to disagree with Hanexs on merging Greyhawk and Alhaster--the latter spot has its own special flavor that is really important to the plot as a whole, I think, and if you want players to be attached to Greyhawk, it's easy enough, since by the time they visit Alhaster they're 15th level and can teleport back and forth with ease. The campaign ends with the PCs (if successful) being in charge of a city-state in the Bandit Kingdoms, next door to Iuz's empire. My plan is to continue with a politics and alliances roleplaying campaign using the old epic PCs, while simultaneously running a new low-level campaign with PCs who are the old PCs' proteges doing the dirty work of fending off the threat from Iuz's minions.
I've only run the first adventure of Savage Tide, but have been thinking about how to continue the AP when I get a chance. It's also an excellent choice, but quite different in flavor from AoW. AoW has some edge to it, especially in Alhaster, but STAP has more, and is more suited to adapt for an anti-heroic party in certain ways. Both have plenty of evil to fight, but both have pitfalls for the straight-up zealot crusader type. STAP has one or two dungeon crawls, but much more varied types of adventuring, and both urban and wilderness adventures figure big. The final few adventures (not out yet) are supposed to be set mostly in extraplanar spots--lots of Abyssal locations, mostly, if the previews are still accurate. STAP has more of a swashbuckler feel to it--with pirates and tropical islands and a whole adventure dedicated to an ocean voyage. It is set south of the Flanaess, so it has less classic GH goodness in some ways, but it does feature a visit to Tamoachan and the central adventures take place on the Isle of Dread, so it's still got lots of nostalgia factor to it, and can be spiced up with some stuff from the Scarlet Brotherhood pdf, which details this part of Oerth.
Ge you suo chang--each has its own strengths, as they say in China.
Well, it kind of depends on your playing style/preferences to an extent.
Shackled City is less unified than the other paths, not as outlined. However, the upshot of this is a certain degree of freshness. It is very dungeon crawl oriented if run strictly by the book, but it also gives a lot of opportunity for roleplaying and getting to know characters, since it's centered around one location, the city of Cauldron.
Age of Worms has probably the best 1st level adventure I've ever run (Erik Mona's Whispering Cairn) and Diamond Lake is a very fun town to work with. AOW went for an archetypal D&D experience and it's variety of dungeon crawls speaks to this. The dungeon crawl got really old for my group by the Champion's Games adventure, though, which lead to the decision to axe the campaign halfway through. But your experience may differ. There are a lot of great locations and adventures, however, especially in the later parts. A huge team fight with a Vecnan high priest and his cronies, a siege of dragons on a city of giants and a dinner party with a despot are major highlights for the late campaign and make me want to dust off the adventures and try it again.
I've only read the Savage Tide adventures up to this point, but they look to be among the strongest so far. Much more variety than the last two adventure paths, with wilderness exploration and NPC interaction on an equal level with dungeon crawls. Scuttlecove alone is enough to merit a play through, in my opinion.
I can't speak to Shackled City - I've seen some of the adventures, but I never played them. I started AOW just as STAP was coming out. I got through the first two just as the actual Isle of Dread stuff was coming out and made a spot decision to integrate them. So in essence I'm doing both of them, kind of.
Whispering Cairn is an outstanding intro module and Three Faces of Evil is something that really sold my PCs on need to fight against the "forces of evil" involved in the pending Age of Worms. From there I adjusted Sea Wyvern's Wake from STAP (lots of adjustments, but I think that can be kind of fun) and all my old time players get a kick out of how we'll be sailing near, but not going to the Isle of Dread (of course not, thank goodness we won't be forced to make landfall there!)
The key difference seems to be that AOW is more traditional dungeon sites whereas STAP is more free form/ event based. My group likes to mix it up so that's what I'm doing.
I'm one, maybe two adventures from wrapping up Age of Worms, which was my first serious foray into a long-term campaign in 3rd edition. I made a LOT of mistakes on the way. Bad ones. But I learned an immesnse amount from it.
I think AoW is strong, and features a number of really cinematic locations and fights. And really, I think the best yet are waiting at the end. We'll see.
One piece of advice -- find your inner Killer GM. It will serve you well.
I can't wait to start running the Savage Tide. Everyone's comments previously on the variety of its adventures is spot on.
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1) Shackled City lives and dies with the ability of the DM to breath life into the city of Cauldron and its denizens. If you go with this AP you get really plenty of help and additional advice on the boards here and at RPGenius. It includes also some journeying on the Planes...You can place Cauldron easily into any campaign world.
2) Age of Worms is classical D&D at its best. After the first half, the campaign takes a bit of a breather (not in a negative way) from its dungeon crawling beginnings and ends with a real clincher. It builds on lots of old Greyhawk lore and includes journeys to different parts of Oerth. It also contains conversion notes to the Forgotten Realms and Eberron (as does Savage Tides).
3) Savage Tide... I haven't read those adventures yet, as there is a possibility that I may play that one... but from the tidings of these boards, it is really good...
The first Adventure Path introduces some elements, that are built upon heavily in the Age of Worms, while the third begins in a coastal city near Cauldron with important NPC's being relatives to noble families in Cauldron.
SCAP, i have no experience with but of what i read it didn't really seem too great. i'm sure the writing and all that were good, and the maps looked cool but my party wasn't interested in running it and i didn't have all the adventures anyway.
AOWAP: this looked like a good path. if you like undead and lots of small dungeons, lots of travel, and preternatural horror elements, this one is for you. seemed a little like railroading most of the time, but the villains were cool.
STAP: This one rocks! by far the best of the three. the main villain is kewl, dastardly, and by far the best villain in any dungeon magazine. the adventures are rock solid, exellently written, and a return to the isle of dread. old schoolers will love this one. lots of adventure, swashbuckling action, beautiful settings, adventures on the high seas, beautiful maidens that need rescuing, oh the list goes on! This is what happens when you have a great plot, great writers, and beautiful maps. of the three, i would run this one. i'm on the 7th adventure with my party now, and they can't wait to get to scuttlecove. they may just regret that decision though... bwah ha ha!
I don't know how much I can add without being redundant, but here's my take.
First, all three are very deadly. Unless the DM alters things or stacks the deck in the players' favor, there will be PC death. There are a few adventures on the easy side of the scale (Encounter at Blackwall Keep springs to mind), but for the most part they really demand that the players bring their best game to the table.
Shackled City:
I'll agree with another poster and say that this one looks to be the most demanding on the DM. The adventures don't follow the plot quite as closely as those in the other APs, and there isn't much foreshadowing or involvement with the final villains until the end. It also takes place primarily in a city, with lots of NPCs and organizations, which can be difficult for a DM to manage if he's not accustomed to it. The early adventures also suffer a little from the "plot hook -> dungeon" routine, which may work just fine for some parties, but may require some modification for others.
That being said, I think Shackled City also has the most potential of the three. The fact that it is centered around a single location gives players the opportunity to become familiar with and tied to the setting, which makes events in the campaign seem more important and compelling. There are some great locations and adventures that just require an active DM to really breathe to life. On top of that, the support at www.therpgenius.com is phenomenal. I just recently started running this campaign, and I'm really enjoying it.
Age of Worms:
I haven't run this, but I've read the adventures. This is a classic, balls-to-the-wall epic adventure. It seems to suffer a bit from the "Why are we here? Because so-and-so told us to come here," syndrome, but I think some of the adventures are destined to go down in history as all-time greats. The Whispering Cairn is widely heralded as one of the best 1st level adventures to date. The Champion's Belt enters the PCs in gladiatorial combat, for crying out loud! The Prince of Redhand is one of the best social adventures I've seen, and Kings of the Rift has the party in the middle of clashing armies of dragons and giants. I haven't even mentioned my favorite adventure in the campaign, the Library of Last Resort. This campaign just seems to get bigger and better as it nears the end.
Savage Tide:
Again, I've not run this, but I've read all of the adventures so far. This campaign so far really captures high-adventure swashbuckling in a world of savagery. It has a unique, powerful atmosphere that encourages drama and suspense, with an excellent variety of dungeon-crawling, role-playing, and wilderness adventuring. There are some great characters and villains, with a recurring foil to get the players angry and motivated. If I could pick a campaign to play in, this would be the one, as I love the style of adventuring and this is the first campaign I've seen that captures it - Homer's Odyssey, meet Heart of Darkness.
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I also can't speak to all three of them, as I've only read Shackled City all the way through. In its defense, I think it makes for a great campaign, especially when supplemented by some of the material on these boards (I'd specifically recommend delvesdeep's "Demonskar Ball" and Chef's Slaad's "Invasion of Redgorge" threads for ideas) As was said above, Shackled City has the most potential where the DM can really make the city come alive for the players. If you and your players can really get behind the idea of coming to love and protect a place like that, you'll all have a very rewarding experience. Plus, there are tons of villains with great concepts just waiting for the DM to step in and utilize.
Not having read the other two paths, though, I can't make a recommendation as to which one is best. One question for those posting: has anyone had experience, on either side of the table, with all three paths? Everyone here so far seems to have been through two at most.
EDIT: If you do decide to run SCAP and are looking for supplemental material on the boards, rokeca's mini-adventures on Occipitus can also take a great deal of work off of your shoulders.
Oh, and let me add the voice of experience to the notion that there is much railroading going on in the Age of Worms. This was probably exacerbated in my case by the fact that I started them with Encounter at Blackwall Keep, so there really was a lot of "We're doing this because someone told us to."
This problem seems mostly absent from Savage Tide.
I've run all three of them and although Age of Worms is great, Savage tide is my absolute favourite. Loads of interesting encounters, powerful and memorable villains, a mysterious island infested with demons and dinosaurs and simply the best travel adventures that are available. Lots of fantastic locations and well thought out but small dungeons wrap it up nicely.
Oh, and let me add the voice of experience to the notion that there is much railroading going on in the Age of Worms. This problem seems mostly absent from Savage Tide.
Oh! I'd almost forgotten the railroading problem. It's true that AoW tends to be a little weak on character motivation, but I didn't have much problem with that. My players encountered rumors of worm-infested undead early on and responded with "Hmmm, this smacks of adventure; let's investigate" thinking. If your players aren't of similar mindset, you might have problems here.
ST is exactly the opposite in some cases. While there is some railroading (a patron hires the PCs to "go there" and "do that"), there are several areas where the party is left to their own devices. You'll need to be prepared to give them something to do while they're waiting for the next AP event to happen.
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Savage Tide. Awesomeness distilled.
Age of Worms is cool, but suffers a lot of Lord of the Rings style "go to this, then go to that, then do this, all because I said so" storytelling.
Shackled City, as someone else said, has a lot of potential, but requires a lot of work from the DM to make it really stand out.
I'm not really sure how Savage Tide can not be just as fixed as Age of Worms. Both of them work on the same format of adventure #2 follows on the heels of Adventure @1 and the players go through them in sequence. APs, by their nature, are linier.
I just wanted to point out (and forgive me if someone has already done so) that Adventure Paths tm by their very nature and in the name itself imply a specific set of events that entail a known and accepted amout of railroading. DMs contemplating running any of the APs should advise their players beforehand that certain events will be happening to further the story along, and yes it can seem like obvious railroading at times. A good DM can run these adventures in a way that the players don't notice it or mind. But the fact is, it's still there and the players need to be aware of it and accept it beforehand or it may not be fun for them.
I've already had my say above, but let me add with regard to both AoW and STAP that if either has a significant weakness it is in the transitions or hooks to get PCs out of one adventure and into another. I think this problem stems from the nature and format of the enterprise--different writers writing each adventure with the editorial staff trying to make sure the transitions work reasonably well, plus the nature of a serial publication. In running AoW, I've done very little to modify the adventures themselves, but I've modified the published transitions considerably, and have plans to continue doing so. There are frequent discussions about these kinds of modifications on the boards, so if you review the archives, you'll find lots of ideas. For the parts of AoW I've run, you can flip through my campaign log on this site ("The Company of Light") and get some idea of how I did the transitions through the first four adventures. (I'm still working on my log for Champion's Belt).
I've already had my say above, but let me add with regard to both AoW and STAP that if either has a significant weakness it is in the transitions or hooks to get PCs out of one adventure and into another. I think this problem stems from the nature and format of the enterprise--different writers writing each adventure with the editorial staff trying to make sure the transitions work reasonably well, plus the nature of a serial publication.
I'd think transitions would be tricky in any case. I suspect that, in some since, that is the nature of D&D if we want to keep changing the scenery. I mean if you use one huge Dungeon then there is no problem - you just go deeper and deeper and the opposition gets ever more powerful. But, mostly, none of us want to play like that anymore. So one needs to constantly come up with some rational for a scene change. I think the Dragon Lance adventures were mostly the same authors and they had the most god awful transitions I've ever seen, so its not so much a problem of multiple writers as it is part of the nature of the mechanic. I'll note that the more seamless the transition is the less choice the players will have over it and the more rail roaded they are likely to feel. One just can't end up on a boat traveling halfway around the planet for the next series of adventures and not have essentially agreed to allow the DM to push you in this direction.
Creative Director
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The transitions between adventures are one of the hardest parts to wrangle about Adventure Paths, especially since small changes to one adventure can have a crazy ripple effect that throws off the ones that come after it. The start of an Adventure Path adventure is generally where I end up having to do the most actual rewriting of the adventure. It's not a fault of the author; it's just that it's impossible for two writers who are essentially working on overlapping schedules to sync up perfectly. Shoring up the transitions is one of the things I've been trying to polish up the most in Savage Tide, since I agree that it was a problem in the previous two adventures at times.
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I will go ahead and put my apology here. I gave James a hard time about STAP on a earlier thread. Pirates of Kong STAP this is not. These adventures are fantasic and I keep looking forward to the next like an addict searching for a new drug. I'm not as big into pirates as some on the site ,but the stories are well written.
My favorite AP is Age of Worms. I'm a undead and horror type of guy and the overall adventure had an old-school feel. Oh and you kill a God, a small God, but one none the less.
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32
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My take on things is the following:
Shackled City: Least Favorite of the bunch - its the first of its kind (AP published in a magazine), and it shows in some places. The adventures tend to be a bit formulaic, but it has some definitively cool moments (Test of the Smoking Eye stands out in particular). Gains definitive bonus points for consistent backdrop.
Age of Worms: The overall Winner (i wonder who reads past the first sentences, if i give away the overall evaluation in them? ;) ). It has its flaws, especially in the transitions between adventures (i have partially rewritten the start of EaBK, and plan to do so for AGoW), and tends to be a bit dungeon-crawl heavy, but is a very visceral experience, plunges the characters into being epic heroes way before Savage Tide does. Its rough around the edges, but that makes it all the more charming and gives it character.
Savage Tide: The Sports Car Adventure path. Sleek, polished, with all the bells and whistles to make it great. No real flaws here, its just good - but somehow it eiter fails to engage me as much as Age of Worms, or just is not as engaging. Also, has significantly less character IMHO, with few possibly unfair, but definitly memorable encounters. Heck, nothing so horrifying as sending the Ebon Aspect right after the final battle where the PCs spend all their resources here.