Heathy brings up a good point. What will you Guys and Girls at Paizo do if WotC comes to their senses and descides that they made a mistake? Will you take back Dragon Mag and Dungeon Mag? Will Pathfinder also continue? Inquiring minds want to know.
I second the motion to boycott. Stop buying WotC materials until Dragon and Dungeon are reinstituted. The CEOs at Wizards will only understand when they see the results in their bank accounts.
Have I missed something?
Are Dungeon and Dragon no longer being published?
What's going on?
Delvesdeep
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Have I missed something?
Are Dungeon and Dragon no longer being published?
What's going on?
Delvesdeep
Hey Delvesdeep, haven't seen you around here for a while. There's a big announcement on the opening page of the website that pretty much sums it up, and FAQ thread somewhere.
But basically, Paizo's license to publish Dungeon and Dragon mags has not been renewed by WoTC
You will NEVER buy another WotC product if they do not give Paizo the rights to publish Dragon and Dungeon?
Really?
And would WotC really feel it?
Retailers will feel it first and hardest, and therefore the boycot will hurt THEM much more than WotC or Hasbro.
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Make phone calls to WotC. Write well-thought-out and empassioned letters to them. THOSE they wil feel. Go to big cons and talk to them (if you can).
Support Paizo.
But a boycot?
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You will NEVER buy another WotC product if they do not give Paizo the rights to publish Dragon and Dungeon?
Really?
And would WotC really feel it?
Retailers will feel it first and hardest, and therefore the boycot will hurt THEM much more than WotC or Hasbro.
--------------------------
Make phone calls to WotC. Write well-thought-out and empassioned letters to them. THOSE they wil feel. Go to big cons and talk to them (if you can).
Support Paizo.
But a boycot?
No, they won't feel it. I don't care.
If I buy their products I'll feel it.Do what you gotta do, man. I don't care.
I'll buy some Chaosium junk.
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Couldn't Paizo continue with its own OGL magazine? Maybe it could take themes from both Dragon and Dungeon and combine them into one AFFORDABLE magazine.
I say AFFORDABLE, because while Pathfinder looks interesting, and likewise, looks to be doing that which I've suggested, at $20 a month, that's pretty damn expensive.
BTW, in WotC discontinuing the license, the announcement speaks of WotC doing something similar to Dragon and Dungeon on line. What does this mean exactly? That Dungeon and Dragon will live again as online magazines?
Friends, I suspect what's happening here is that WotC may be feeling the pinch that TSR suffered in the not too distant past. With so many books being released monthly, they may be over-extending themselves. (Hecks, we're on version 3 of d20 for Star Wars already!) Perhaps they see a corner on the market by taking back Dragon and Dungeon.
Unfortunate, as it wasn't WotC, but Paizo that made Dragon and Dungeon so stinking good. But hey, with Pathfinder, we may see Paizo take this on the chin and keep trucking. And/or like I suggested, maybe Paizo will start putting out a SRD magazine that'll merge themes of Dragon and Dungeon (and potentially d20 Modern) and grow beyond the confines that mark WotC's money-making scheme.
Couldn't Paizo continue with its own OGL magazine? Maybe it could take themes from both Dragon and Dungeon and combine them into one AFFORDABLE magazine.
I say AFFORDABLE, because while Pathfinder looks interesting, and likewise, looks to be doing that which I've suggested, at $20 a month, that's pretty damn expensive.
Friends, I suspect what's happening here is that WotC may be feeling the pinch that TSR suffered in the not too distant past. With so many books being released monthly, they may be over-extending themselves. (Hecks, we're on version 3 of d20 for Star Wars already!) Perhaps they see a corner on the market by taking back Dragon and Dungeon.
Yes, $20 a month seems steep.
And yes, it is SO hard to keep up with WotC, product even if you stick with non-campaign setting books. This month alone we have some adventures which look good, the magical compendium, and Dungeonscape (and there could be more I am missing). At $20-$35 a piece, that gets pricey and a lot to read in a month or so until the next crop comes out.
Heck, I still haven't gotten Cityscape yet!!
You will NEVER buy another WotC product if they do not give Paizo the rights to publish Dragon and Dungeon?
Really?
And would WotC really feel it?
Retailers will feel it first and hardest, and therefore the boycot will hurt THEM much more than WotC or Hasbro.
--------------------------
Make phone calls to WotC. Write well-thought-out and empassioned letters to them. THOSE they wil feel. Go to big cons and talk to them (if you can).
Support Paizo.
But a boycot?
I think a boycott would be incredibly effective. If the majority of the readers of Dragon and Dungeon magazine stopped purchasing WotC products, Hasbro would see an immediate income decline. The bottom line is all corporations really respond to. Worried about the consequences for retailers? Buy all of your Paizo products at your local gaming shop. Let the people who actually care about the fanbase fill the gap.
Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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I think a boycott would be incredibly effective. If the majority of the readers of Dragon and Dungeon magazine stopped purchasing WotC products, Hasbro would see an immediate income decline. The bottom line is all corporations really respond to. Worried about the consequences for retailers? Buy all of your Paizo products at your local gaming shop. Let the people who actually care about the fanbase fill the gap.
Neh. WotC makes most of their cash off of CCG's and Minatures. If the D&D line underperformed it would not result in a significant hit on the company's bottom line, much less Hasbro's. Same logic applies for the TSR analogy above. I'm not saying you shouldn't boycot, just that you should be realistic in your expectations.
Couldn't Paizo continue with its own OGL magazine? Maybe it could take themes from both Dragon and Dungeon and combine them into one AFFORDABLE magazine.
I say AFFORDABLE, because while Pathfinder looks interesting, and likewise, looks to be doing that which I've suggested, at $20 a month, that's pretty damn expensive.
We did in fact look long and hard at the possibility of doing another consumer magazine. The biggest problem was dollars, as in the (quite literally) millions it would take to start a new one. Dragon and DUngeon have a 30-year history, a massive subscriber base, and placement on newsstands - something that any new publication we might launch would have to build back up from scratch. And let me tell you, the magazine business is very, very hard to get started in these days, especially with something as esoteric as what we all hold dear herein.
Please keep in mind that PATHFINDER is NOT a magazine, and will not be sold in issues. It will not contain ads (except perhaps a Paizo ad or two), which is sweet, but neither will it contain much in the way of news, reviews, articles and the like. For specifics on what PATHFINDER will be like, please check out the FAQ here: http://paizo.com/transition/faq
I have to tell you, the support we've felt in the past 12 hours from our readers and the Paizo community in general has been spectacular. You guys are really, truly the best!
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I don't expect a boycott to change any minds up there. I just don't want to give money to a company that I feel is jerking me around. I've had it. That's all I can say.
IMO, Dungeon and Dragon fostered innovation and interest in D&D. And the Greyhawk support was phenomenal. I think that WOTC was silencing the competition for whatever this new web initiative is going to be, and I think they are shooting themselves in the foot big time.
I think WOTC is poisoning the well THEY drink out of, and the move is bad for D&D in general. SO, any and all boycott move on my part, or anyone else's part is pretty much negligible; I doubt D&D is even the equivalent of a head in the massive corporate hydra that is Hasbro.
I think THEY are damaging the D&D entity, and THEY will slough it off; no biggey to them because they have all the TCG's and Mini's, not to mention all the toys. Those are the real moneymakers.
I don't care. There's nothing I can do about it. BUT, I can walk away with my dignity.
I don't care. There's nothing I can do about it. BUT, I can walk away with my dignity.
Well said, Heath.
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That's about the best summation of the situation that I've seen, Heathenson. Paizo has worked hard to warrent my respect, my trust, and my consumer dollars. They have shown they are gamers that appreciate their audience. WoTC is, as you say, poisoning thier own well, and they've pretty much shown they don't care about what most gamers think. Piss on 'em.
Paizo have done a stand up job, though I'm in two minds regarding the Pathfinder stuff.
The dead of Dragon and Dungeon as print products is one of the most depressing bits of gaming news I've heard in months. I'm sorry, call me a Luddite, but I want the artifact, not a nebulous online imitation. I look forward to checking my mailbox.
I've had it- I count myself lucky in that I play in Third Party Settings, cus that's it, a few more stand out core/peripheral products and I'm out. Wizards can look for some other suckers lucre.
Please keep in mind that PATHFINDER is NOT a magazine, and will not be sold in issues. It will not contain ads (except perhaps a Paizo ad or two), which is sweet, but neither will it contain much in the way of news, reviews, articles and the like.
Call me nuts, but I am going to miss the ads. I never would have heard of some products had I not seen an ad in Dragon or Dungeon. Ads were one of the things I actually looked forward to.
It will be interesting to see how this all turns out. I am positive Paizo will be fine. When you make quality products, you also make loyal customers.
How you think I got this way?
A genetic throwback? ;-)
I have to tell you, the support we've felt in the past 12 hours from our readers and the Paizo community in general has been spectacular. You guys are really, truly the best!
No Phil: YOU GUYS are the best. Paizo's response to the whole situation - getting on the boards and podcasts (by the way, Phil: great interview on pulpgamer.com), addressing customer concerns and questions, doing rumor control - has been phenomenal. Your soon-to-be-former partners on the Dragon and Dungeon frontier... well, the fire and fury of angry customers on the WotC boards is the only thing keeping the crickets from becoming overly loud.
Now, while I won't be buying Pathfinder (a bit too expensive for my gaming budget, and no live Greyhawk content), I will be supporting Paizo as my budget allows. Y'all put out a great product, no matter what the product line.
Now if you'll excuse me, I have to go refill my wish list/shopping cart in the Store...
I find I lack eloquence at the moment. I am feeling quite heartsore. Here is a post copied from the wizard's boards. I did not write this.
begin quote-
I'm afraid I'm going to have to add to the long list of posters who are protesting the decision to end publication of Dungeon and Dragon magazines.
WotC's statement on this issue is patently unsatisfying. The magazines have been in the black, so obviously people are getting their gaming material in print rather than online, and many of us prefer to get a significant proportion of it in print. In fact, Dragon and Dungeon have been putting out very high quality material--WotC's D&D supplements have used much material that originated on the pages of Dragon, while Dungeon's recent adventure paths have been a stunning success that have really redefined both the adventure and the campaign for many gamers. While many gamers do go online and use computers in their games, the essence of D&D is to get away from a computer and interact face to face--it's a pencil and paper game and most of us like to carry our high-quality printed magazine issues for reference to our game, whether we're serving as gamemaster or player. Many of us like to relax and read about the game someplace besides our computer workstations or in front of our laptops, and some of us don't even have access to computers.
I don't think that pulling the plug on these magazines is in the best interests of the gaming hobby, and since the hobby forms the core of your business at Wizards, anything that damages the hobby is bound to have a negative influence on your long-term profits. The magazines advertise D&D in ways that an online e-zine cannot do. They are established brands with name recognition that attract new members to the gaming community and bring lapsed gamers back to the fold (and back to spending their fat middle-aged paychecks on WotC publications). The magazines also provide a forum for smaller gaming businesses to advertise and attract customers--in most cases these businesses aren't directly competing with WotC, they are instead contributing to the gaming industry as a whole--the people who buy tac-tiles and dice and specialized supplements from such companies are also buying large numbers of your products as well. In fact, by featuring teasers from some of WotC's best supplements, the magazines increase your sales--I know I've bought a number of supplements because something in a Dungeon adventure or a Dragon article piqued my interest. Finally, the magazines have provided a space for new designers to display their talent--a number of the writers who now produce material for you cut their teeth in the magazines. I don't see an online publication doing these things as well, if at all--particularly since you appear to be ditching both the brands and the people who have made it all happen. And I don't see an online magazine attracting nearly the readership that the printed magazines do, especially if you charge for the privilege of reading it, which you will have to do if you want to put out a high-quality product.
Dragon magazine was an important factor in getting me involved in this hobby back in the late 1970s. It was a key factor in bringing me back to the hobby in after giving it up for over 15 years. And it was a key factor in getting turning my 17-year old son (your future!) into the hobby. I understand the idea of making bold business decisions to keep a business healthy and anticipate the future, but sometimes it is better not to fix what isn't broken. And I must say, Wizards of the Coast's official statements on this decision seem quite disingenuous. Not only are they so curt as to border on disrespect to both the publishers of the magazines and their loyal readers, they imply that the magazines aren't successful, or profitable, or valuable to the hobby, which simply is not true. I can only conclude that Wizards sees Paizo as a rival, now that you've moved back into the business of publishing adventure modules, and that you have resorted to a brazen and destructive tactic to take their market share. Perhaps this is not true, but it is certainly the appearance you have created to the gaming community.
Paizo has earned my loyalty by putting out a consistently high-quality product, and I will be subscribing to their Pathfinder series rather than investing in the adventure modules you produce. If I have any money left in my gaming budget, I might consider continuing to purchase a few supplements from you, but you can be assured that the new arrangement leaves me far less money to spend on Wizards products.
Sincerely,
Peruhain
Oriskany Falls, NY
I'm with you! I am going to boycott WotC. Hopefully they'll give Paizo their liscense back but even if they don't I want to make WotC PAY!!!!
I am going to send a furious email as soon as I find their da*n email address!
P.S. If anyone knows WotC's email please post it.
I don't play well with WotC. I'm a casual gamer, and generally buy only core rulebooks and Dungeon. No splatbooks, etc.
I don't know how I'd feel if the timing of this was a little different ... a year would have been better than LESS THAN 4 MONTHS. I hope it wasn't because they wanted to end on a nice round number 150.
I'm giving Pathfinder a shot, following the talent. I consider the Dungeon mag subscription money already spent, and don't wanna risk a refund being sent to me periodical rate :)
MistaRyte
Don't just boycot Wizards, we all need to write them letters and send emails. Don't just send angry emails, write them a letter, that way they can't just send you the typical "we respect your opinion but we've made our decision blah blah blah" crap!
They're "planning" on creating online content like this sort of thing, but it's nothing like having a magazine in your hands. Besides, Dungeon and Dragon magazines create jobs for people who love DnD but also want to make a living in writing or art.
Don't just complain! Lets take up arms against wizards!
I don't see $20 as all that excessive. I used to buy both Dungeon and Dragon mags and together that costed something like $16+ already. A few more dollars a month isn't going to break my bank.
At the worst, it'll just mean a few more WotC product I won't be able to afford to purchase.
Hoping this is all a ruse. That WotC will, as if it wasn't their nefarious scheme all along, concede to their loyal fans, and extend that same loyalty by continued to print both magazines. Then they go from villains for booting Paizo to a company that cares. Not true and not going to happen but then that's what daydreams are for.
Far too late and far to elaborate to be April Fool's. I am still stunned. I don't know what to do yet about the remaining subscription excess.
I plan on taking arms against wizards, everyone I know is a hardcore gamer, myself included, wizards will no longer be our source of material, nor will my children have anything to do with hasbro (they are turning out to be quite the gamers as well, it makes a mom proud)
This is going to have far reaching consequences. I don't think wizards realizes the extent of the fan base, or the age. Alot of us are old timers with lots and lots of children, all of whom USED to buy their hasbro products.
There will be letters, and all the protests that go with this kind of thing, but I plan on doing everything I can to hit them where it's going to hurt them the most, their bottom line.
While I won't be officially boycotting Wizards, this recent decision of their's will severely curtail my spending on 3.5 books. I haven't been entirely happy with the last 2 or 3 books I purchased, anyway...
They are making a mistake. I plan on letting everyone I game with know the depth of this mistake, and let them decide if a boycott of their product is a way to go. I have no plans on purchasing any of their products now, anyway - about the only thing that would change my mind would be if they started a massive World of Greyhawk push, with talented people at the helm.
I read my first Dragon issue in 1981, and ran my first Dungeon adventure in 1989. These magazines will be deeply missed by me, and hopefully this situation is a temporary one (but probably not...).
I too am in shock, but making decisions (or law for that matter) when emotions are high tends to lead to bad results. Give it a few days or weeks and see where things are going.
My fear is if we all boycott WOTC the only thing that will happen is D&D will die. Not that people won't keep playing, but that Hasbro will see a dying line and won't publish it any more.
May cooler heads prevail...
I too am in shock, but making decisions (or law for that matter) when emotions are high tends to lead to bad results. Give it a few days or weeks and see where things are going.
My fear is if we all boycott WOTC the only thing that will happen is D&D will die. Not that people won't keep playing, but that Hasbro will see a dying line and won't publish it any more.
May cooler heads prevail...
I'm honestly not saying this just out of anger or to be inflammatory. If WotC stopped supporting D&D entirely, I wouldn't mind so much. Complete Adventurer was the last good supplement they created. Everything they've done since then has been sub-par. If they stopped supporting it, it would give smaller, more dedicated/worthy publishing houses (See: Paizo Publishing LLC) to maybe pick up the product line entirely.
*Edited for grammar*
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I too am in shock, but making decisions (or law for that matter) when emotions are high tends to lead to bad results. Give it a few days or weeks and see where things are going.
My fear is if we all boycott WOTC the only thing that will happen is D&D will die. Not that people won't keep playing, but that Hasbro will see a dying line and won't publish it any more.
May cooler heads prevail...
I see your point. I'm just used to reacting in the wake of hell.
My fear is if we all boycott WOTC the only thing that will happen is D&D will die.
D&D looked like it would die when TSR went under, but Wizards picked it up. If Wizards drops it, other companies (hopefully competent ones) would be crazy not to pick it up.
(Here's to Paizo taking D&D if it were dropped by WotC. ;P)
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Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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My fear is if we all boycott WOTC the only thing that will happen is D&D will die.
D&D looked like it would die when TSR went under, but Wizards picked it up. If Wizards drops it, other companies (hopefully competent ones) would be crazy not to pick it up.
(Here's to Paizo taking D&D if it were dropped by WotC. ;P)
Except WotC is not a small private company with D&D as its main source of revenue. WotC could shutter D&D and continue to operate, it would not go under as a result of the line being discontinued (or, even the rpg book line being discontinued, which is the most likely scenario).
im so shocked at reading the statement. ive been buying dragon magazine for for so long now that i cant envision not getting any more issues. i will take a look at pathfinder but i haveta say that still being only halfway thru age of worms it'd be so long before i might use em that i really hope they can justify 20 bucks a month.
I started my boycott years ago - Wotc suck at supporting MtG so I gave up on them.
I used to buy $150 worth of MtG cards a week but that all stopped.
Just promise me you'll stay away from Rifts. That stuff can damage your brain...
No, they won't feel it. I don't care.
If I buy their products I'll feel it.
Do what you gotta do, man. I don't care.
I'll buy some Chaosium junk.
It's too late for Heath and RIFTS. He has had MD done to is SD brain and he tried to do it to me.
I am not sure I will stop buying WotC things, but I will say this. I will give anything Paizo puts out a benefit of a doubt. The adventure paths have been some of the best fantasy writing that I have read in some time. Frankly I am very excited about Paizo's new setting and the two adventure paths per year.
Now when WotC gets around to coming out with their 'replacements' of Dungeon and Dragon in their new online format, I have already cast serious doubts on that in my mind. I like have printed material that I can read away from the computer. I am a business data analyst and I play cRPGs... I don't need to spend all of my reading time on the computer too. So now I have to print out my DnD articles, reviews, and such? Or how about I bring my laptop to bed with me... I think not. I love the art, the stories, and the ideas that these magazines could inspire when I was unplugged. I read very few of the WotC articles on their site as it is. I wonder if they are just going to take all of that and put a subscription model over it... I hate (I mean love) to be a cynical bastard, but that is about what I expect from them... only time will tell.
Heath... how are the little mutants growing up in your lay line of the universe? Give me a call I would love to catch up.