This thread: http://paizo.com/paizo/messageboards/community/gaming/dnd/helpNeedIdeasForA WizardKiller
got me thinking about mis-matches a one on one PC battle could offer strategically. Using the same standards Ender_rpm has in the thread above (18th level, Elite Array (15,13,12,11,10,8), PHB, DMG, MM only. Phb races, average HP. No spell effects in effect at begining of game, and no buff rounds. prolly foot ball field sized playing area, not sure of cover. Full wealth, no more than 33% on any one item (440K gold wealth/ <148 K on one item)), who would come out on top?
Oh, and...apologies if this has been done a billion times before.
Glad to see I'm not the only one who had this question raised in their mind. Well, though I love wizards more, my money would be on the cleric.
Honestly I think the wizard. He has spells that would keep him away from a buffed up cleric. Also the wizard can deal out more damamge from a distance then the cleric. Think of the primary roles of these characters. Wizard blast 'em and know it all. Cleric buff 'em up and fix all the damage the party takes. Wizard hands down.
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I would have to bet on the cleric. His hit die is twice the size of his opponent's, he has the same summoning spells at the same levels, likewise for caster-level checks, spell resistance, etc. And he's got two good saves. It won't matter if his spells do 20 damage less at the same level. Oh, and Domains even out some of that, too. Cleric wants to cast Disintegrate? Destruction domain. Polar Ray? Cold (or Water?) domain.
Anyone with the ability to heal almost always wins. Damage mitigation will beat anything that can't deal damage faster than the cleric can recover.
I'd whip the cleric if I played the wizard. Then again I'd whip the wizard if I played the Cleric.
I think who won initiative could determine the outcome. In D&D your always one save from disaster.
Anyone with the ability to heal almost always wins. Damage mitigation will beat anything that can't deal damage faster than the cleric can recover.
You can't heal if your incapcitated.
I may be stating the obvious but in my experiences, there are two important factors that determine the outcome of equal level class vs. class fights:
1) Circumstance - the environment, encounter range, and other miscellaneous are critical
2) Luck - obvious, but bares mentioning especially when considering damage, attack, and save-or-die rolls.
All things being equal, I think the cleric is the most powerful class bar none.
I would give odds to the cleric. While the wizard can do more damage at further range with is spell the cleric can heal and buff himself better. After spell are exausted they would then have to engage actual combat. This is where the cleric would end with the advantage. With better attack and better armors available to them. Remember clerics can wear armor and not suffer spell failure.
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It really depends on what levels we're talking about here. Early on, the cleric will dominate until the wizard gets access to a few 3rd level spells (and maybe a 4th or two). From 7th level up until 17th (when 9th level spells enter the fray), I'd say the wizard 100%. Once the cleric gets implosion however, it becomes somewhat less certain. Before implosion, the only save or die spells the cleric gets are touch range, which the wizard can easily avoid thanks to his various mobility spells.
Obviously, if you bring PrCs and other such nonsense into the fray (like the Heirophant PrC), the odds waver a bit.
Straight PHB only, though? Wizard all the way until level 17. Then, it becomes a tough call.
Also, to everyone who cites the cleric's armor as an advantage: The wizard does not give one crap about your +5 full plate. It might as well be cheesecloth to him.
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Anyone with the ability to heal almost always wins. Damage mitigation will beat anything that can't deal damage faster than the cleric can recover.You can't heal if your incapcitated.
Incapacitating a cleric is notoriously difficult. Thanks to high Fortitude AND Will saves coupled with (usually) high Con and Wis scores, they can save against just about anything. Reflex save spells are where it's at and, unfortunately, clerics have things like the Travel domain and freedom of movement. You can't keep them down for long and, even if you do, they STILL have dispel magic.
The only way to go here is to ramp up your effective caster level, hit them with LOTS of hit point damaging spells that either allow no save (ranged touches, mostly) or Reflex saves and hope to shred through their HP quickly. Healing is not a big deal. I guarantee you that however much damage you restore, I can deal back to you again during the round that you're healing it.
Clerics do have silence, however, which is just evil. Rods of Metamagic (Silent Spell) help with that.
Cleric at low level-wizards can't run away fast and clerics have lots of combat-oriented spells. Once the wizard gets Fly and Fireball though, the cleric's beat pretty much. But a lot of it depends on the domains and specialty school chosen.
I'm gonna go with "who ever wins initiative" on this one. The Cleric can take any punishment the Wizzy can deal, while the wizzy can move circles around the cleric and stayout of range. Of course, the old archer cleric of 3.0 would be fun.... ;)
Anyone with the ability to heal almost always wins. Damage mitigation will beat anything that can't deal damage faster than the cleric can recover.You can't heal if your incapcitated.Incapacitating a cleric is notoriously difficult. Thanks to high Fortitude AND Will saves coupled with (usually) high Con and Wis scores, they can save against just about anything. Reflex save spells are where it's at and, unfortunately, clerics have things like the Travel domain and freedom of movement. You can't keep them down for long and, even if you do, they STILL have dispel magic.
The only way to go here is to ramp up your effective caster level, hit them with LOTS of hit point damaging spells that either allow no save (ranged touches, mostly) or Reflex saves and hope to shred through their HP quickly. Healing is not a big deal. I guarantee you that however much damage you restore, I can deal back to you again during the round that you're healing it.
Clerics do have silence, however, which is just evil. Rods of Metamagic (Silent Spell) help with that.
See, my thought is that yes, you can deal whatever the cleric heals, but you'll just go in circles. The cleric can have quickened healing abilities, too, and so it will just go back and forth, back and forth, until both wizard and cleric are out of spells. Then the wizard will care very much about the cleric's +5 full plate and +5 mace.
Also, I agree- reflex saves are where it's at as far as disabling a cleric, but there a relatively few reflex save allowing spells that would really be a big hinderance to the cleric; he can probably dispel them fairly quickly. Most reflex spells are direct damage, which is woefully ineffective against the cleric, i.e., healbot.
My money's still on the cleric. It'll be a long fight, but I think the cleric would win.
There's a whole lot of technical terminology going on here. I appreciate how thoroughly versed all of you are in the game system, and how thoughful and devious you are in applying them but...
The Cleirc wins…
Occam’s Razor:
“The simplest solution is often the best, provided it accounts for all relevant factors.”
Thus we have;
When the wizard prays, nobody answers….
Think about it…
Enough said…
Personally i hate playing as a cleric, so GO WISARD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Personally i hate playing as a cleric, so GO WISARD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Well in Forgotten Realms especially clerics of mystra have noticeable advantages over wizards but still the only spell casting starting class's I go for are sorcerer or sometimes a Warmage.
There's a whole lot of technical terminology going on here. I appreciate how thoroughly versed all of you are in the game system, and how thoughful and devious you are in applying them but...
The Cleirc wins…
Occam’s Razor:
“The simplest solution is often the best, provided it accounts for all relevant factors.”Thus we have;
When the wizard prays, nobody answers….
Think about it…
Enough said…
Wonderful deduction ; )
Wonderful deduction ; )There's a whole lot of technical terminology going on here. I appreciate how thoroughly versed all of you are in the game system, and how thoughful and devious you are in applying them but...
The Cleirc wins…
Occam’s Razor:
“The simplest solution is often the best, provided it accounts for all relevant factors.”Thus we have;
When the wizard prays, nobody answers….
Think about it…
Enough said…
That is why the wizard does not need to pray, his power comes from himself. If the cleric doesn't pray, they get no spells!!
That is why the wizard does not need to pray, his power comes from himself. If the cleric doesn't pray, they get no spells!!
actually, the wizzies power comes from his spellbook. if he doesnt read his spellbook, he cant cast spells. because there LOSERS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! i hat wizzies. and clerics.
anyways, the evil assassin skulking in the shadows would kill both of them, so HE wins!!!!!!!!!! dumb dead LOSERS!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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See, my thought is that yes, you can deal whatever the cleric heals, but you'll just go in circles. The cleric can have quickened healing abilities, too, and so it will just go back and forth, back and forth, until both wizard and cleric are out of spells. Then the wizard will care very much about the cleric's +5 full plate and +5 mace.
Ready for my analysis? Here we go:
The cleric's major healing spell is, of course heal. He can cast this spell as many times as he has 6th level (or higher) spell slots available to him. With heal restoring an ungodly 150 hit points per casting (assuming no metamagic or other feat-related benefits), that's an awful lot of healing. However, the wizard could easily cast several quickened immobilization spells (like web and evard's black tentacles) to halt the cleric's casting of said healing spells. Then, the cleric must choose whether he wants to heal or dispel the immobilizers. If he doesn't dispel the immobilizers, he's going to have some difficulty casting (unless he takes Still Spell, which might not be a bad idea).
Obviously, the best way to cripple the cleric is to nail him with a maximized ray of enfeeblement. If the cleric decided to bring full plate to this fight, his encumberance penalties will rapidly make him regret the decision.
I will admit that this would be an exceptionally tough (and length) fight for both sides. I can't say that the wizard would win absolutely, but I think I could come up with some strategies that should give him an above-average chance.
In all honesty, I'd buy myself a Greater Rod of Metamagic (Maximize) and open the fight up with a maximized meteor swarm. It would probably drop the cleric in one shot. That's 192 damage.
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The cleric could use the same rod and cast a maximized energy drain. It'll be tough using those high level spells with -8 levels.
This is true. Really, as with most of these 'pit fight' scenarios that we've entertained recently, it comes down to 'he who wins initiative wins the fight.'
See, my thought is that yes, you can deal whatever the cleric heals, but you'll just go in circles. The cleric can have quickened healing abilities, too, and so it will just go back and forth, back and forth, until both wizard and cleric are out of spells. Then the wizard will care very much about the cleric's +5 full plate and +5 mace.Ready for my analysis? Here we go:
The cleric's major healing spell is, of course heal. He can cast this spell as many times as he has 6th level (or higher) spell slots available to him. With heal restoring an ungodly 150 hit points per casting (assuming no metamagic or other feat-related benefits), that's an awful lot of healing. However, the wizard could easily cast several quickened immobilization spells (like web and evard's black tentacles) to halt the cleric's casting of said healing spells. Then, the cleric must choose whether he wants to heal or dispel the immobilizers. If he doesn't dispel the immobilizers, he's going to have some difficulty casting (unless he takes Still Spell, which might not be a bad idea).
Obviously, the best way to cripple the cleric is to nail him with a maximized ray of enfeeblement. If the cleric decided to bring full plate to this fight, his encumberance penalties will rapidly make him regret the decision.
I will admit that this would be an exceptionally tough (and length) fight for both sides. I can't say that the wizard would win absolutely, but I think I could come up with some strategies that should give him an above-average chance.
In all honesty, I'd buy myself a Greater Rod of Metamagic (Maximize) and open the fight up with a maximized meteor swarm. It would probably drop the cleric in one shot. That's 192 damage.
The immobilization is contingent on the cleric not resisting the thing outright and not having some sort of magical protection up. Granted, with no buff rounds, the later would be unlikely.
Actually, why not allow buff rounds? It expends some spells from each one's repetoire, shortening the duration of the fight, and each one would know what they were getting into when they prepared spells. When talking about a duel of the spellcasters, why not allow each one some time to prep? Seems equitable.
You could run a fight with buff rounds, and one without.
anyways, the evil assassin skulking in the shadows would kill both of them, so HE wins!!!!!!!!!! dumb dead LOSERS!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Fatespinner, please come up with one of your hideous descriptions of why a wizard would slaughter an assassin (presuming rogue as the base class). :D
Just joking wit' ya!