I've been thinking about leveling up events for a while and this article was very timely. I've vacillated between the idea of the PC "getting" something when they level up (new feats, skills, abilities, etc) and "getting the opportunity to learn something" (a new feat, new skills, new spells, etc). I know PCs like the reward of leveling up and I'm afraid that making them "learn" the new skill will make it seem like more work. "Geez I finally made it to level 11 and now I gotta go and learn the new thing? Why bother leveling?" My other concern is making it fit into their PC lives. Mr. Baur's idea of rolling a 75% still seems arbitrary to me. ("I didn't actually have to wrestle a bear, I had to roll a 75 or less on my Opposed Grapple.") While I think giving the opportunity to learn skills, feats, spells etc as rewards for leveling makes sense. I can't quite figure out how to fit it in without it being a ton of work and not fun for the PCs. Your thoughts or experiences would be appreciated.
I like this idea. I don´t know yet if I will integrate it into my game. Probably I will rather have a short story how and why the characters gain something new - jut a line or two that I tell or will ask the player for input for.
One example: One of my players wants to play an archer. He starts out with one level of ranger, and will switch to fighter upon becoming second level. Well, being a fighter encompasses the ability to wear heavy armor. You don´t get that ability by watching, so some training is necessary. This might be the point at which these ideas come into play.
In general, it seems a good idea to give some thought to unusual things for the characters, be it the start of a new class or the gaining of an unusual class feature like the druids shapechange. I won´t recommend these things for every skill or feat, especially if the feat is one of a series - you could assume that the initial training encompasses the whole series, but the character needed more practice before being able to use it properly.
In the end, it is a tool to deepen the characters´ story a little bit.
Stefan
"In the end, it is a tool to deepen the characters´ story a little bit."
I agree.
I once played in a game where every new feat, spell level, class ability so on so on had training prerequisites. I felt it bogged down the game and made me resentful ( I was a wizard) that I had the XP to cast 2nd level spells but I had not had the ability in the story to go and seek out a higher level wizard.
If used as a story aid and applied logically (as the archer who didnt get the heavy armor) it can add to the game.
I once played in a game where every new feat, spell level, class ability so on so on had training prerequisites. I felt it bogged down the game and made me resentful ( I was a wizard) that I had the XP to cast 2nd level spells but I had not had the ability in the story to go and seek out a higher level wizard.
This is an example of taking the idea too far - it bogs down the game and ruins the fun. That is too much. (Besides, if the DM uses prerequisites, he should also provide the opportunity to cover these - to me, that is bad DMing.)
Use it every now and then to enhance the story, not more.Stefan
well, i used to have the pc's train until they were of named level, that being of about 11 or 12. PC's had to train and pay for training with money or other resources and time when they advanced to another fighing table on the THAC:O chart in the old dmg or whenever they learned a new level of spells; after 12th they knew enough to train on thier own or take on apprentices.
I do not do that anymore as that is not the gaming realizm we are looking for in a game; done that, its over and fairly pointless. With the current game rules and with so many classes that it would be near impossible to even find a teacher; it seems just silly to me; pc's would spend more time training than playing; seems each night we have played the last 4 games everyone has leveled once a session. It doesn't take very many fights or much roleplaying at equal cr value to level as compared to the old days when an orc was worth about 16 or so exps or something like 8 for 1hd + 1/hp +0 special, +0 extra ordinary.
I like the idea of training (time & money or mini-quest) when you're adding/changing a class. I'm thinking I agree with you all when you say it will bog down the game. Ever since the article came out in the mag, I've been trying to figure out how to provide the learning opportunities without making them too contrived.
I think I'll let it go for now. Maybe an idea will come to me as our group progresses.
Thanks for all of your input! 'Preciate it!
I've used all sorts of methods. I've had PCs level-up overnight, while still in a dungeon, I've set a specificed training time of a number of days equal to your new level + 1d4, and I've had PCs training take up a whole month where they had to track down folks, pay for training, etc. I've found (with the groups I have run) that they don't care how long or short a time it takes, just that they have gone up a level. As long as it makes sense in the game/campaign you're running and the PCs are given the time necessary to train, then its not really an issue for them.
The idea of increasing some of your abilities during gameplay is a noble idea, but the game mechanics would probably end up being overly complicated or overly simplistic leading to some players having problems with the system. I'd still like to see the write-up of a good system, but it would have to be a doozy for me to use it.
I just lament the speed at which leveling occurs in 3ed. I'm running my first ever 3.5ed campaign (SCAP hardcover) and I think that characters level just too damned fast. I need to experiment which XP awards (which was MY focus on the article mentioned).
My favorite levels as a player were always the low levels, 1-3. The world is such a wild, thrilling, and dangerous place for adventurers of such power.
-Darren
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I actually like the speed of leveling in 3.5. I used to hate having to run 1 character for 2-3 years and finally get to 10th level or so. Now I can run 1 or 2 characters from 1-20th level in about a year of solid gaming. Gives me opportunity to try new classes and features and to just switch up the PC personality. If you run a game once a week (4hr session)you can complete a 1-20 campaign in about a year.
As far as training goes, it always seems to be a DMs arbitrary decision about how they think training should be. Cost, time, resources, all based on how a Data Entry Manager, school teacher, or Fast food restaurant manager thinks that combat training should work. And they never get it right.
FH
I actually like the speed of leveling in 3.5. I used to hate having to run 1 character for 2-3 years and finally get to 10th level or so. Now I can run 1 or 2 characters from 1-20th level in about a year of solid gaming. Gives me opportunity to try new classes and features and to just switch up the PC personality. If you run a game once a week (4hr session)you can complete a 1-20 campaign in about a year.
My group plays once a week, from 6PM to 2AM, sometimes longer. So it doesn't take long to level. My voice is always gone by the end of the night.
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I just lament the speed at which leveling occurs in 3ed. I'm running my first ever 3.5ed campaign (SCAP hardcover) and I think that characters level just too damned fast.
I feel exactly the same way. In the STAP game I'm running, I've cut the combat XP in half, then reserve the second half for awarding actions taken in-character and story-related awards. I figure this will result in an average award of about 75% of the recommended combat XP, which will slow things down nicely.
There were times in AOW where it seemed my group was leveling EVERY session. Even the players grew tired of it. For STAP we are hitting the XP brakes! This will give me more time to add encounters outside the storyline to add flavor to the world. If absolutely necessary, I will scale the advnetures as well, but I would rather add content. I guess we'll see how it goes.
I'm running Age of Worms, and I've been carefully keeping track of xp and awarding them per the DMG - and as luck would have it, my group has stayed right on track (so far) level-wise with the adventures as published (I haven't had to modify anything in order to compensate for my group having too many or too few levels).
This has led me to think I could just totally forget calculating xp (it takes a lot of time and energy that I could spend doing - other gaming related stuff!) and simply say, "okay, you've finished this adventure so it's time to level up." Even longer adventures that span several levels, usually have multiple chapters, so there's most likely a logical break in the continuity to advance a level.
When we played Three Faces of Evil, I believe they reached level 3 at the end of the Temple of Hextor, level 4 by the end of the grimlock area, and level 5 by the end of the Vecna area. And never left the mines! (and did this over about 3 days time, in game) Talk about 'on the job training' !
I'm running Age of Worms, and I've been carefully keeping track of xp and awarding them per the DMG - and as luck would have it, my group has stayed right on track (so far) level-wise with the adventures as published (I haven't had to modify anything in order to compensate for my group having too many or too few levels).
This has led me to think I could just totally forget calculating xp (it takes a lot of time and energy that I could spend doing - other gaming related stuff!) and simply say, "okay, you've finished this adventure so it's time to level up." Even longer adventures that span several levels, usually have multiple chapters, so there's most likely a logical break in the continuity to advance a level.
When we played Three Faces of Evil, I believe they reached level 3 at the end of the Temple of Hextor, level 4 by the end of the grimlock area, and level 5 by the end of the Vecna area. And never left the mines! (and did this over about 3 days time, in game) Talk about 'on the job training' !
There was a thread about this back on the AoW boards I believe.
Since each adventure in an AP is supposed to provide enough XP to level up twice, then really you could probably just look for a logical goal or accomplishment ~halfway through the adventure and award a level then, and then award the second level when the PCs complete the adventure. Basically just throw out the CR and XP calculations, and just give out story awards.
This is pretty much how I plan to handle STAP when I DM it, I'm going to look at each adventure and try to find a logical midpoint or mini-boss, and then award a level-up then. And then just award the 2nd level after the adventure is concluded.*
Of course, if the PCs royally screw up part of an adventure, I'd have to modify that slightly, lol
I also considered reviewing each adventure for several mini-bosses & goals, and then equally dividing up the XP to level up twice between them, maybe give a double share to the climatic boss fight at the end. It would still save me some bookkeeping and calculations, and would also not reward the PCs automatically with both levels in case they miss a sub-quest, etc
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Something that should be noted about reducing XP. I plotted out what reducing XP does, and while it slows down the early levels, it doesn't slow anything down beyond that, and you end up with parallel advancement at a lower level.
For example, while I am using the UA variant for fixed XP, it works out the same with standard XP. Here's a chart ...
Level XP Level 75% XP Level 50% XP Level 25% XP
1st 0 1st 0 1st 0 1st 0
2nd 1,000 750 t 500 250
3rd 3,000 2nd 2,250 2nd 1,500 750
4th 6,000 3rd 4,500 3rd 3,000 2nd 1,500
5th 10,000 4th 7,500 5,000 2,500
6th 16,000 5th 12,000 4th 8,000 3rd 4,000
7th 24,000 6th 18,000 5th 12,000 4th 6,000
8th 36,000 7th 27,000 6th 18,000 9,000
9th 52,000 8th 39,000 7th 26,000 5th 13,000
10th 76,000 9th 57,000 8th 38,000 6th 19,000
11th 110,000 10th 82,500 9th 55,000 7th 27,500
12th 160,000 11th 120,000 10th 80,000 8th 40,000
13th 220,000 12th 165,000 11th 110,000 9th 55,000
14th 320,000 13th 240,000 12th 160,000 10th 80,000
15th 440,000 14th 330,000 13th 220,000 11th 110,000
16th 640,000 15th 480,000 14th 320,000 12th 160,000
17th 890,000 16th 667,500 15th 445,000 13th 222,500
18th 1,300,000 17th 975,000 16th 650,000 14th 325,000
19th 1,800,000 18th 1,350,000 17th 900,000 15th 450,000
20th 2,600,000 19th 1,950,000 18th 1,300,000 16th 650,000
As you can see, by "9th level" in standard terms, everyone is back to advancing a level at the same rate, just on a delay function...
I give my players XP after the adventure, but rather than calculating the XP gain for each orc, I make a rough calculation, see where my PCs are level-wise, think about where I want to have them in what time, and adjust the XP award accordingly. That way , I don´t need to worry about them advancing too fast or too slow, as I have it under control.
In my current campaign, my PCs made 2nd level after just two sessions, with only minor "real" action, but that was ok, as it seemed fitting to me, and my players did not complain either. I´ll see how it develops.
Stefan
I think that the article is a thoughtful one, although for his part, Baur was really only talking about his own preferences. I've talked about in-game class feature acquisition myself, but I prefer to set "real tasks" in-game rather than an arbitrary 75% chance ability.
For instance, I could say that, well, to get Whirlwind Attack, I would require you to hit two opponents at once in the same round - then your character realizes the principle of Whirlwind Attack and gets to use it freely.
For a Wizard, I could say that in order to get his free spells, he has to track them down - he hears that there's a cache of hidden spells and magical treatises in the dungeon they're currently exploring. I ask for a Knowledge (arcana) or (history) check and then expound on the "treasure cache." It'll be easy and relatively fast to acquire after leveling - virtually assured, in fact. If the Wizard is proximate to a treasure that's suited to him, I put the "tome of magic" in with the treasure and say that when he leveled, he uncovered secrets in that tome.
It's all about flavoring the level acquisition, folks.