What class does your group have trouble keeping alive? I had this thought, and my knee jerk reaction was to say wizard. However, thinking about it all of our wizards fair fairly well, but our rogues tend to bite it fairly quick. I think it’s because they want to be death machines not rogues. So the group pushes them up front to check traps, scout, etc and they usually die in some amusing way, or they try to be death machines but forgot they’re wearing leather and have so so hit die and get mopped.
Fizz
Bards. I am not sure why but that is what tends to happen.
Our paladin. Poor guy.
definately the rogues, i think it has something to do with the traps! or maybe that the rogues in my world are daft as a brush!
We have lost Fighters the most. Sadly this was not so until this campaign where we have three casters, a fighter and a Rogue. But the fighter has died three times to date. The party's casters are notorious freelancers and not rich on healing power, so the fighter is rarely buffed and always has to take most of the frontline duties.
It has gotten so bad that he took a level of Abjurer just to be able to buff himself a little. I actually feel a little bad for him. Next to that it seems Clerics have a talent for getting themselves in trouble in my campaigns. We have had one die in each of our three 3.5e campaigns. The fighters still outrank them in mortality. *g*
since I started running 3.5 the following deaths have aoccured in my greyhawk game:
Dwarf Fighter (killed by assassin)
Human Ranger (succumbed to filth fever... don't ask)
Human Paladin (Turned to stone by basilisk)
Human Paladin (Rended by awakened Dire Ape chef)
Elf Wizard (dust of sneezing and choking trap)(I am thinking that the wizard died twice, but can't remember the circumstances of the other death).
there for it appears tha paladins dies off most often in my games (although nobody has played one since the dire ape incident.
Clerics. Of course thats mostly because that player can kill any of her characters.
Rogue and Fighter. Not because they're weak, but because they're the favorite classes of two people who tend to make poor decisions.
Good topic.
I'm loosing fighters and Rogues most of the time. Its gotten to the point where the players are complaining a bit. What's actually happening is the character in the front line buys it more then any one else. I keep thinking the Wizards will start to catch up in terms of dying but so far that's not happening. It just seems that if something bad is going to go down its going to be worse for the guys up in the front lines duking it. So a fighter player that fights over other characters like a range oriented player can usually get away when things go wrong but the front line fighter and the flanking Rogue act like canary's. Its usually their death that sets the rest of the party to running away.
I'm not really sure what to do about the situation. I try to run a tough but fair campaign where the monsters act in their best interests or in a manner consistent with their backgrounds. I never specifically target a player but it seems as if the whole 'tough but neutral' approach penalizes those guys that have to stand in the front and protect the rest of the party. Front line characters also often seem to have the hardest time getting out when everything goes wrong as well. I mean if everything blows wide open then the magic using players use magic to get themselves out of dodge. The front line fighters have a harder time with this as well.
My character deaths in the current campaign.
Paladin - Died from an evil Clerics death touch ability when the player made the mistake of saying "guys we are over matched here - we got to book" right after his turn ended. Needless to say the rest of the party proceeded to run away leaving the Paladin to wait through the entire initiative sequence before her turn came up again. She never got to her turn.
Psychic Warrior - The character moved into a room that levelled Bugbear 'Amazons' had retreated. He got caught in their counter attack as the bugbears came from both sides and shredded him.
Dwarf Fighter/Rogue - Same room as above with the Bugbear Amazons. Charged into the room in order to get a javelin throw off while the Bugbears where flat footed. It worked but he could not handle the counter strike when one of the Bugbear Amazons rolled a crit with her Orc Double Axe. The X3 damage backed by the muscles of an elite bugbear warrior was enough to simply kill the Fighter/Rogue outright.
Fighter - Players are fighting a Troll. The fighter takes a minor bite hit putting down 5 hps from max and calls on the other players - especially the cleric to heal him. The other players laugh at him for being such a wimp - I mean 5 points, off the 45 or so that he had, big whoop. Next round the Troll hits with both claws, one is a critical and then he rends. Fighter goes straight to -13 and dies outright.
Barbarian - Players are battling Draconian like creatures (redesigned for my campaign world) which they have never battled before. The Barbarian takes the fight to the largest of the Draconians in a hard duel and has lost about half her 80 hps. When she deals the killing blow the Draconian blows apart like the 4th of July, its death throws hit her and the rest of the weaker Draconians in the room some of whom can't survive the damage and they in turn explode. This sets of some of the ones that survived the last explosion but now they go up and so on until every Draconian in the room has exploded in a massive chain reaction. Barbarian is in the centre of the Draconians and is blasted in every explosion taking a total of about 60 points of damage even with good saves and dieing outright. Other players further back get singed by some of the Draconians near them but miss most of the damage.
Finally I lost a bunch of players in a battle with a Phantasmal Killer. Players where not prepared for its death touch, this being the first time they have encountered save or die type effects. In this fight a Rogue died initially to the save or die touch as he was up in front trying to flank. This was the only character that died completely due to things out of his hands - a straight up roll good or your dead. The rest of the players panicked and went to flee realizing to late that their only escape was to run across a rope bridge suspended over a 800' drop. Ranger and Psychic warrior both flunk their balance checks and died from the fall while the warrior cleric elected not to even try the bridge as he had so little chance of success and simply went toe to toe with the Phantasmal Killer which soon killed him with its deadly save or die touch attack.
Basically it just seems like being in front is a death sentence - eventually something is going to go wrong and while it might be the whole parties mistake its the front line players that pay for it. Furthermore they are the least likely to have a magic that can extract them from a bind.
Now I think some of this might be due to the six player party. Two front line fighters and usually two characters that are at least halfway descent combatants keep the enemies away from the the mages etc. so that the weak characters almost never have to deal with the problem of good combatants being in their face. With enough players the weaker members are well gaurded and they don't face the problem of being charged by a big nasty that can easily rip them limb from limb which is the kind of thing that might plague a smaller 4 player party which is simply incapable of keeping all the nasties away from the weaker characters all of the time.
I'm loosing fighters and Rogues most of the time. Its gotten to the point where the players are complaining a bit. What's actually happening is the character in the front line buys it more then any one else.
Tactics and teamwork. Your spellcasters need to invest in battlefield control spells (Glitterdust, Web, etc.) and have at least one summoning spell handy (as a decoy/rear-guard). The front-line types should be buffed and healed as much as possible. Finally, the front-line types should never be left hanging or move out of mutual support range.
Even with good tactics and teamwork, the front-line types are the most at risk from a lucky hit (like what happened with the troll). This is just something that comes from being the character that gets swung at the most.
Some groups just have trouble with tactics and teamwork. Right now I'm running my DMPC Ranger 2 ragged covering a Cleric 2 and a Rogue 1/Battle Sorcerer 1 who think they're combat death machines.
I'm loosing fighters and Rogues most of the time. Its gotten to the point where the players are complaining a bit. What's actually happening is the character in the front line buys it more then any one else.Tactics and teamwork. Your spellcasters need to invest in battlefield control spells (Glitterdust, Web, etc.) and have at least one summoning spell handy (as a decoy/rear-guard). The front-line types should be buffed and healed as much as possible. Finally, the front-line types should never be left hanging or move out of mutual support range.
Even with good tactics and teamwork, the front-line types are the most at risk from a lucky hit (like what happened with the troll). This is just something that comes from being the character that gets swung at the most.
Some groups just have trouble with tactics and teamwork. Right now I'm running my DMPC Ranger 2 ragged covering a Cleric 2 and a Rogue 1/Battle Sorcerer 1 who think they're combat death machines.
Its not really that they are bad at tactics and team work. In fact I'm getting sick of friggen Solid Fog. Its also the good team work that insures that the players never leave their vulnerable mages at the mercy of brutes. Its that the players usually die either when they are really unlucky with a crit - which almost certianly hits a front line fighter, when they fall into an ambush, which is worst for the first guys going forward, or when they encounter something they have not seen before and where not expecting like the Exploding Draconians which does the most damage to people up in front near them) or the Phantasmal Killers save or die attack - which, as usual, is first used on the guys in front of it. It just seems like if your the first guy into a room your the one thats going to die if things are not what they seem, if the dice are going to turn on the players its going to be the front line types that pay the price and if the big baddie has a trick up its sleeve its the front line types that are the focus of the dastardly trick as they are in its face.
Last session when I asked what the party's marching order was everybody announced that they where in the back. I laughed and insisted they give me a marching order at which point an argument broke out. My poor newbie, who has now lost two of her characters, was making plantive cries of "but I don't want to be eviserated" before the rest of the players (except the other frontline player) brow beat her with - your the fighter, get in front.
Monk is rarely played but whenever someone plays them they spend most time in world of hurt. Rogues and bards have occasional problems because sometimes they overestimate their fighting capabilities...something wizards never do, which is why they do rather well. Except against opponents which specifically want to take out spellcasters first, or traps with area effects...
Mostly rogues especially when a trap is badly disabled.
But the problem is mostly with players who overestimate their characters and die in the hands of an angry monster and a happy DM.
Run, live and fight another day.
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With us, the stereotype seems to run true: Wizards.
I pride myself on being a very resourceful and tactical wizard player. My players are well aware of the fact that my skill with the class greatly exceeds their own. Thus, I am capable of forming encounters that are especially lethal to the spellcasting types... and I do.
Though, last Friday, I killed the barbarian PC in my IK game. 80 HP at level 7 is not easy to take down. How did I do it?
...with a wizard, of course. >:)
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Since our DM does not use the 'death by massive damage rule', so not as many PCs have died as could have. However, we have been burdened with PLAYERS with low Wis scores. The following deaths have occurred over the course of nine adventures in three campaigns:
- LN half-drow 2nd-level cleric of Wee Jas; HP 15; killed by a spiked pit trap.
- CN half-vampire 1st-level bard; HP 19; taken down by a Kobold zombie. I'm not kidding.
- CN tiefling 3rd-level sorcerer; HP 16; incinerated by a Burning Hands/Inflict Moderate Wounds trap packed into a wall bracket with an Unholy Avenger sword
- N human 4th-level sorcerer; HP 20; killed by an evil druid's Large constrictor snake animal companion
- CG half-elf 2nd-level rogue; HP 14; killed by another PC under the influence of a Rod of Paranoia
- CG human 2nd-level fighter; HP 21; killed in two hits by a Wind Guardian in AoW
- CG elf 2nd-level cleric of Pelor; HP 18; killed in one hit by a Wind Guardian in AoW
- CN human 2nd-level warmage; HP 17; killed in one hit by a Wind Guardian in AoW
- LN human 1st-level druid; HP 9; killed in one hit by a Drow's critical hit with a dagger, and a failure to make ANY Fort. saves.
Anyway, the verdict is: mostly spellcasters that overestimated their fighting capabilities, and fighters with delusions of nobility that ended up being meat shields.
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RPG Superstar 2013 Top 32
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- CG human 2nd-level fighter; HP 21; killed in two hits by a Wind Guardian in AoW
- CG elf 2nd-level cleric of Pelor; HP 18; killed in one hit by a Wind Guardian in AoW
- CN human 2nd-level warmage; HP 17; killed in one hit by a Wind Guardian in AoW
This reeks of a near or total TPK.
Its not really that they are bad at tactics and team work.
There's basic tactics/teamwork and advanced. Most parties manage the basics (tanks protect the mages, rogues flank, divine casters provide support), but might not consider the advanced strategies. Grapples and trips paired with the rogue's sneak attack, tailoring the party's tactics to the terrain and foe, liberal use of ranged weapons and alchemical substances (alchemist fire and tanglefoot bags in particular), summoning spells; these are some things that many groups fail to consider or use to full effect.
Things that all parties should to consider:
1) Front-line types need to protect the spellcasters, but the spellcasters need to protect the front-line types. The casters should be buffing and healing the front-liners constantly. They should also be ready to cast delaying/disabling or summoning spells to help out the front-liners or to provide a decoy/rear-guard so that the front-liners can retreat.
2) Disabling attacks are the key. Blinding, entangling, grappling, paralyzing, tripping, or otherwise preventing a foe from acting at full effect (especially if it gives bonuses to other party members) is much more effective than straight damage. Against tough foes and spellcasters, minimize the number of chances they have to hurt the party. Against weak foes and minions, get them out of the way as quickly and efficiently as possible so you can concentrate on the BBEG.
3) Ranged attacks rule. Unless you need to get into melee rapidly (to eliminate an enemy ranged specialist or spellcaster, for instance), keep your distance and hit your enemies with ranged weapons and spells. Most monsters have poor or no ranged attacks, so are at their least effective until they can get into melee. Even if you can't avoid melee entirely, you should at least soften them up at range first.
4) Fight magic with anti-magic. Dispel Magic and the various other forms of anti-magic spells are lifesavers. Every 5th level wizard should have several Scrolls of Dispel Magic and anyone with the Craft Wand feat should have a Wand of Dispel Magic as soon as he can afford to enchant it. If the party runs into a magical effect and have no Dispel Magic/Greater Dispel Magic/etc. spells to deal with it, then something is wrong. Either they failed to prepare adequately or they are almost out of resources.
5) Divide and conquer. Summoning spells provide one of the easiest ways to increase the party's combat capability by increasing the party's number of attacks. Even if they only last a couple rounds, they still force the enemy to split his attention/attacks. Smart placement of the summoned creatures can provide flanking opportunities and/or threaten spellcasters with AoO. Many of the creatures also have disabling capabilies.
The Eldritch Mr.Shiny wrote:Since our DM does not use the 'death by massive damage rule', so not as many PCs have died as could have. However, we have been burdened with PLAYERS with low Wis scores. The following deaths have occurred over the course of nine adventures in three campaigns:
- LN half-drow 2nd-level cleric of Wee Jas; HP 15; killed by a spiked pit trap.
- CN half-vampire 1st-level bard; HP 19; taken down by a Kobold zombie. I'm not kidding.
- CN tiefling 3rd-level sorcerer; HP 16; incinerated by a Burning Hands/Inflict Moderate Wounds trap packed into a wall bracket with an Unholy Avenger sword
- N human 4th-level sorcerer; HP 20; killed by an evil druid's Large constrictor snake animal companion
- CG half-elf 2nd-level rogue; HP 14; killed by another PC under the influence of a Rod of Paranoia
- CG human 2nd-level fighter; HP 21; killed in two hits by a Wind Guardian in AoW
- CG elf 2nd-level cleric of Pelor; HP 18; killed in one hit by a Wind Guardian in AoW
- CN human 2nd-level warmage; HP 17; killed in one hit by a Wind Guardian in AoW
- LN human 1st-level druid; HP 9; killed in one hit by a Drow's critical hit with a dagger, and a failure to make ANY Fort. saves.
Anyway, the verdict is: mostly spellcasters that overestimated their fighting capabilities, and fighters with delusions of nobility that ended up being meat shields.
Impressive, especially the half-vampire.
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This reeks of a near or total TPK.- CG human 2nd-level fighter; HP 21; killed in two hits by a Wind Guardian in AoW
- CG elf 2nd-level cleric of Pelor; HP 18; killed in one hit by a Wind Guardian in AoW
- CN human 2nd-level warmage; HP 17; killed in one hit by a Wind Guardian in AoW
Near. Interestingly enough, the rogue was the only survivor.
SADISTIC RULES LAWYER DM.
Does he teach classes? I might sign up.
Does he teach classes? I might sign up.
SADISTIC RULES LAWYER DM.
Just start running the enemies the PCs face using the five guidelines I posted above. PC fatalities follow quickly unless they are on the ball.
For us, Rogues and Fighter/Rogues die quickly-- they're usually first on the scene for bad stuff, take on special risks others don't (like trap disarming), and lack the HP to tank.
Otherwise, our party had relatively even deaths, though our sorceress didn't even get hit until 6th level or so.
Usually any class I am playing.
But aside from that, I'd say Rogue.
The class you cant kill (or sometimes even touch) in our games? Cleric.
Rogues tend to die a lot. Then I have offed a few barbarians as well.
So Rogues and Barbarians go quick. I think lack of armor death machine mentalities do these PCs over in my campaign.
Wizards don't die as often as I always fear they will. Rogues definitely buy it more often - they take more risks and sometimes get more heroic than they ought. A close second, though, has to be the cleric. He's tough but when other characters start dropping he must sacrifice his fighting abilities to save them - in the end, there's no one to heal him, a lucky hit or two and he's toast.
Melee fighters, until they finally get a ring of free action. Until then they are at the mercy of all critters that grapple, because, face it, a Medium character is no match for a Huge monster when it comes to grappling.
Fighters. With 2 H-O Barbarians, Cleric, Wizard, & Ranger, the Fighter thinks he needs to step up and be more of an offensive threat than he's capable. He gets whacked a lot.
If I'm playing them: Arcane casters of any sort.
If I'm DM'ming: Rogues. Not by intention, just by circumstance.
/d
Lets see, most recently no "permanent" deaths, but a few "low negatives" and "revivifies" to be sure. With that having been said, lets see . . . sorcerer, monk, sorcerer, sorcerer, rogue/druid/daggerspell shaper/master of many forms, monk, sorcerer, necromancer/cleric, unless my esteemed friend can remember anyone else that got close to the Fugue Plane.
Lets see, most recently no "permanent" deaths, but a few "low negatives" and "revivifies" to be sure. With that having been said, lets see . . . sorcerer, monk, sorcerer, sorcerer, rogue/druid/daggerspell shaper/master of many forms, monk, sorcerer, necromancer/cleric, unless my esteemed friend can remember anyone else that got close to the Fugue Plane.
I dunno, maybe major plot point shades? (yet another evil grin from me).
I think the stand out cleric/fighter (of helm) has had it pretty good a couple of times.
Our poor lythari turned hellbred had it pretty bad, too. This oughta be a fun thing to watch. Xaos in i Trust.
Oh, a certain halfling rogue (our former special opps guy).
/d
Paladin BY FAR!
Most of the time, my group does a decent job of keeping the distinction between Lawful Good and Lawful Stupid. Having said that however, it is not surprising that Paladins cack it the most.
It is only logical I suppose that being the Ultimate in self sacrificing paragon of justice and courage, that the Paladin will find himself or herself in harms way more often than most. Not surprisingly, the laws of probability dictate this class is doomed the most. And so it plays it in most of our games.
This class is the most likely of any to die, and we have had the distinction/misfortune (depends on your outlook I suppose) of seeing more Paladin deaths than Almost all the other classes combined.
Poor Sir Pally...may they all rest in peace.
Be safe all.
A Class called "Dan"
Seriously no matter the class this poor guy dies 2-4 times as much as any other player.
But it tends to be
Fighter
Barbarian
For my games.
Other classes might be higher, but are low HP classes are often avoided by my players.
Lets see, most recently no "permanent" deaths, but a few "low negatives" and "revivifies" to be sure. With that having been said, lets see . . . sorcerer, monk, sorcerer, sorcerer, rogue/druid/daggerspell shaper/master of many forms, monk, sorcerer, necromancer/cleric, unless my esteemed friend can remember anyone else that got close to the Fugue Plane.I dunno, maybe major plot point shades? (yet another evil grin from me).
I think the stand out cleric/fighter (of helm) has had it pretty good a couple of times.
Our poor lythari turned hellbred had it pretty bad, too. This oughta be a fun thing to watch. Xaos in i Trust.
Oh, a certain halfling rogue (our former special opps guy).
/d
I almost forgot about our dear departed little one man black ops department . . . then again, I think we had a conversation about people giving him credit or not . . . heh . . .
Fighter followed by Sorceror for some reason.
Melee fighters, until they finally get a ring of free action. Until then they are at the mercy of all critters that grapple, because, face it, a Medium character is no match for a Huge monster when it comes to grappling.
It depends on the build. A raging Bear Totem Barbarian or a character with the Clever Wrestling and/or Close-Quarters Fighting (both CW) feat(s) has a pretty good shot.
In our games the barbarian dies. It doesn't matter the skill of the player, either. The barbarian just dies. One barbarian died, came back as a dwarf, and died. Another barbarian was multiclassed with a fighter. It doesn't matter, though. He died.
I just noticed it, now. The barbarian class is cursed.
What class does your group have trouble keeping alive?I think it's not class so much that's the problem but rather the kinds of players in your group. Recklessness, inexperience and impatience are the real problems, IMHO. Failure to plan ahead or to consider options other than direct confrontations often leads to an untimely demise as does trying to be something you're not, like the rogue who thinks he's a death-machine. Fighting only when necessary, knowing when to retreat, negotiation & compromise and understanding your character's limits can all help with survival.
This might be true, but herin lies the problem - at least in my opinion. D&D purists roleplay. If their character is a rambunction 17 year old impulsive thief, or an uncontrollable Half-orc barbarian, so be it. To roleplay these character types means to play the character, not the game. Said differently, the rogue and barbarian in these cases dont approach combat like a chess match. They don't know they are minis on a grid with ACs and HPs. Thus, they are unlikely to "plan ahead" or perhaps even operate like a greased machine with a group of strangers he/she just met in a bar 30 minutes ago.
I've seen players blur these lines and become upset with other players because they were playing their character, and not the game.
Tactics and teamwork. Your spellcasters need to invest in battlefield control spells (Glitterdust, Web, etc.) and have at least one summoning spell handy (as a decoy/rear-guard). The front-line types should be buffed and healed as much as possible. Finally, the front-line types should never be left hanging or move out of mutual support range.Even with good tactics and teamwork, the front-line types are the most at risk from a lucky hit (like what happened with the troll). This is just something that comes from being the character that gets swung at the most.
Some groups just have trouble with tactics and teamwork. Right now I'm running my DMPC Ranger 2 ragged covering a Cleric 2 and a Rogue 1/Battle Sorcerer 1 who think they're combat death machines.
Yes, besides just having luck on your side tatics and teamwork does do the best job in increasing a parties survivablity. In the 2ed game I'm running I've seen where they have come up and follow some kind of strategy of teamwork they have done exeedingly well, where as they have come close to biting it when they don't. Case in point early in the campain they were to face a couple dozen orcs with 3 ogres. The party was supported by a small group of soldiers. As they got to the cave they arranged with the soldiers who to take on what. The soldiers were to take on most of the orcs while the party took on the ogres and the few remaining orcs. Party further went to whoever moves first choose and ogre, the rest move in and gang-bang it till its dead, move to the next one. Combat went very smooth, almost no injuries to the party and only a couple of casulties to the soldiers. Then later after half the party almost gets wiped out by something that by comparison should have been and easier fight because just about everyone went in and did their own thing while the enemy still maintained order.
All in all most of the time the team does a good job of supporting itself. To date, I've only had one fatitly stick, for any real duration of time. That being their cleric. She sacrfised herself to bring back the person that is argubly thier best fighter (out of 3). I've had one fighter that should have died at least 9 times. He keeps running in to the middle of things and tries to be the hereo by taking up most of the opponents at one time. If it wasn't for their cleric being on the spot with healing and their damn rings of regeneration that they got their hands.