RPG Superstar 2013 Top 32
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I'm running a one-shot, anything-goes campaign that is designed to be extremely action-packed and very, VERY deadly. The characters are all being created at ECL 16 with exceptionally high stats. So far, 6 of the 8 players have decided what they will play. The other 2 players are kind of indecisive and they don't know what will be the most useful character concepts to play for this game. So far, the party consists of the following:
Monk 16
Cleric 3/Transmuter 3/Mystic Theurge 10
Barbarian 16
Fighter 1/Warlock 5/Ur-Priest 10 (BoVD)
Rogue 16 (May change to Rogue 6/Assassin 10)
Warmage 16
What does everyone think about the last two slots? Anything in the published books I own (which includes just about everything except the 'Races of X' books, the Tome of Magic, the Tome of Swords, and Oriental Adventures) is acceptable. Personally, I recommended a bard and a fighter (or psychic warrior). Just curious to see what others think.
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I recommend another character with healing potential. It need not be a full cleric, but the Mystic Theurge is probably going to be pulled in many directions, and could use the support.
I recommend a druid, but a bard or even a paladin would help.
Another front-liner would help round things out as well. Fighter works (insert PrC here, if you wish), or a knight (PHBII), or possibly a paladin or ranger
Note that paladin works for both of those needs, so if you use that, you'll need another character in there. Maybe a bard (no need for healing, though) or beguiler to add spellcasting diversity.
I'm rambling. Druid and knight. There.
This may be too much multiclassing for you, but...
Half-Elven Bladesinger 2/Duskblade 8/Rogue 3/Swashbuckler 3
This character should wield a rapier and have the Einhander feat (PH II).
A bard, dragon shaman, or marshal who focuses on their party-buffing abilities would be excellent in a group this large.
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RPG Superstar 2013 Top 32
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I recommend another character with healing potential. It need not be a full cleric, but the Mystic Theurge is probably going to be pulled in many directions, and could use the support.
The Ur-Priest is basically a cleric but lacks the ability to spontaneously heal/inflict and doesn't gain access to domains. The healing potential is there, for sure, and the monk can heal herself (a little).
Okay, well, then I recommend either a bard and a marshal or two marshals. If you have the Dragonlance Campaign Setting, a good PrC for marshals is in there (Legendary Commander).
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I recommend another character with healing potential. It need not be a full cleric, but the Mystic Theurge is probably going to be pulled in many directions, and could use the support.The Ur-Priest is basically a cleric but lacks the ability to spontaneously heal/inflict and doesn't gain access to domains. The healing potential is there, for sure, and the monk can heal herself (a little).
Wow. I think I just saw "warlock" on that line and moved on. Somehow the ur-priest part never sunk in. Yes, you have a backup healer then.
So, scratching the knight as well (no PHBII), I'd say bard (for buffs, support, and enchantment) and fighter (maybe Dwarven Defender or something).
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RPG Superstar 2013 Top 32
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So, scratching the knight as well (no PHBII), I'd say bard (for buffs, support, and enchantment) and fighter (maybe Dwarven Defender or something).
Actually, a dwarven defender would be pretty cool. The bard is always a nice filler character to do things that no other class covers. Bard songs stack with most other buffs and they have a few useful enchantments that the other classes can't bring to the table (the transmuter selected Enchantment as one of his prohibited schools and the warmage... doesn't cast enchantments).
I'm running a one-shot, anything-goes campaign that is designed to be extremely action-packed and very, VERY deadly. The characters are all being created at ECL 16 with exceptionally high stats. So far, 6 of the 8 players have decided what they will play. The other 2 players are kind of indecisive and they don't know what will be the most useful character concepts to play for this game.
Ah, yes...To give advise about this question, we first have to know a few things:
1. what does campaign mean to you?2. who has designed this campaign, you or a publisher?
3. what does "useful character concept" mean?
If i had to guess, i'd assume that you mean:
1. Campaign means a series of battles connected loosely by a plot line.
2. It's canned.
3. "Useful characters" are the ones that are the most nerfed out with plusses at your ECL of 16.
Does that sound right? If so, this is a call for all hands on deck to powergamers ...
As ever,
ACE
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RPG Superstar 2013 Top 32
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Ah, yes...To give advise about this question, we first have to know a few things:
1. what does campaign mean to you?
2. who has designed this campaign, you or a publisher?
3. what does "useful character concept" mean?If i had to guess, i'd assume that you mean:
1. Campaign means a series of battles connected loosely by a plot line.
2. It's canned.
3. "Useful characters" are the ones that are the most nerfed out with plusses at your ECL of 16.
Your answer to #1 is basically correct. #2 is wrong, I've actually designed this myself. It's been almost 2 years putting the whole thing together. A lot of work for what is to become a single, 14-hour game session. #3 is only partially correct. "Useful" in this case means making sure that the party is well suited to confront ANY situation in one capacity or another according to the ECL I've given them. There will be fights with things that are immune to crits, death effects, energy drain, stun, poison and paralysis and need to be brought down with massive overwhelming force and there will be some encounters with stealthy creatures that use invisibility and dimension door to harrass the PCs while they swoop in to attack. There will be traps, there will be tricky archetecture, there will be undead, demons, devils, constructs, and dozens of other nasty surprises. I'm looking for maximum universal effectiveness here, not simple overwhelming power.
Does that sound right?
Frankly, it sounds like flamebait. If I'd been Fatespinner I would have been a bit irked to get this comment. You basically just told him that he's a crappy DM... I don't know if you're having a bad day or whatever, Ace, but please be a little more considerate.
/off-topic
Does that sound right?Frankly, it sounds like flamebait. If I'd been Fatespinner I would have been a bit irked to get this comment. You basically just told him that he's a crappy DM... I don't know if you're having a bad day or whatever, Ace, but please be a little more considerate.
/off-topic
Heh, yes, had a bad day yesterday. Came off as an arse i suppose - for that i apologize Fatespinner. I phrased my comments and questions poorly.
My questions would have still been similar (however framed). It is difficult to give qualitative advice without understanding the mode of gaming that others are playing. To boot, there's nothing on this thread about who's a good or bad GM. Anything to THAT effect sounds to me like flamebait!
As ever,
ACE
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RPG Superstar 2013 Top 32
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A generalist wizard16 with all sorts of utility spells (to help deal with unusual situations and traps), like fly, gaseous form, water breathing etc, as well as some of the more standard spells.
Well, the transmuter/mystic theurge basically has that area covered. His prohibited schools are evocation and enchantment and, since he's also a cleric, he has TONS of buff spells available. They have the warmage to cover the pyrotechnics for the party.
The monk/kensai is a good idea, but the player is fairly new to D&D so, while a very sound suggestion, I don't think she'll go for it simply because it's complicated. :) I plan on putting some +2 evil-outsider bane ki straps in the armory for her anyway. She'll miss out on the speed ability, but there are plenty of people who can cast haste.
As for the other two options, I keep forgetting that there are a lot more books out there than I think there are. I don't have the Complete Psionics or the Complete Mage, but I do have the Expanded Psionics Handbook and the Complete Arcane.
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RPG Superstar 2013 Top 32
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16th Level Wizard
16th Level Cleric
Hmm... that seems a little overkill, Thoth. Mind explaining your reasoning? They already have a mystic theurge and an ur-priest. That's two major divine casters already and the mystic theurge doubles as a wizard to fill all the holes that the warmage can't cover in the arcane field. They would have 3 arcane casters and 3 divine casters then, all capable of doing the exact same things. The straight 16th-level cleric would bring some powerful undead turning/rebuking to the table, but that's about it. The wizard wouldn't really bring anything new to the group, it would just bring more firepower and utility/buff spells.
For your beginner, a 16 Barbarian works well as your meat shield-- and doesn't have too many tricky mechanics to keep track of.
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RPG Superstar 2013 Top 32
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For your beginner, a 16 Barbarian works well as your meat shield-- and doesn't have too many tricky mechanics to keep track of.
Yeah, she's playing a barbarian in another campaign (a long term one) that I'm running on the weekends and she wanted to try something different this time. She really liked the idea of a monk and, well, she's my wife, so I can't really say "But honey, monks are kind of complicated and the party really needs a meatshield... can't you do ANOTHER barbarian?" I'm confident in her ability to handle a monk, but getting into prestige classes (especially one like the kensai) might be a bit much for her at this point.
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RPG Superstar 2013 Top 32
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Yet another update!
The rogue player (who was considering rogue/assassin) is considering a ranger 16 instead. I guess a ranger kinda works as a meatshield...
To recap:
Monk 16
Cleric 3/Transmuter 3/Mystic Theurge 10
Rogue 16
Fighter 1/Warlock 5/Ur-Priest 10
Ranger 16
Warmage 16
Heh, yes, had a bad day yesterday. Came off as an arse i suppose - for that i apologize Fatespinner. I phrased my comments and questions poorly.
Alright, we're cool. Everybody has their off days. I was hoping that was the case (and dreading that I had starting something bad). Anyway, I have nothing further to contribute to this thread at this time, so...
*up, up, and away!*
TK
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Yet another update!
The rogue player (who was considering rogue/assassin) is considering a ranger 16 instead. I guess a ranger kinda works as a meatshield...
To recap:
Monk 16
Cleric 3/Transmuter 3/Mystic Theurge 10
Rogue 16
Fighter 1/Warlock 5/Ur-Priest 10
Ranger 16
Warmage 16
OK. With that makeup, I still like the Dwarven Defender (or barbarian or some other fighter type) and bard to fill some of the gaps. The good part for the bard will be that he won't really be needed much for healing and the MT will probably assist with the buffs (that's where MT's excel, since they have access to more lower level spells but fewer higher ones).
Oh, it hasn't gotten much attention, but to revise my earlier posts on this thread, I do not recommend a paladin in the ur-priest in the same party.
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RPG Superstar 2013 Top 32
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Oh, it hasn't gotten much attention, but to revise my earlier posts on this thread, I do not recommend a paladin and the ur-priest in the same party.
Yeah, definitely not. The fact that the Ur-Priest has the Dark Speech feat and the Corrupt Spell metamagic feat pretty much cements the fact that they would certainly not get along.
As far as the theurge's spells, he's only one spell level behind the curve. At 16th level, he's casting 7th level Arcane and Divine spells. I agree with you 100% on the bard and the last slot practically demands to be a d10 or d12 hit die type. I'll laugh if they end up with a Swashbuckler in that slot. A samurai might be cool, though.
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RPG Superstar 2013 Top 32
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Update!
One of the two players finally made a decision! They have created a Barbarian 5/Fighter 1/Champion of Gwenhyrwyf 10 (BoED). He ended up with 227 HP. +1 meatshield.
"But Fatespinner, you're putting a Champion in the same party with an Ur-Priest? What's wrong with you?"
The game's premise was that each player would be assigned an alignment and they would make whatever they wanted to as long as it fit that alignment. I have 8 players and I wanted all the alignments (except N) represented. Good and Evil have to play nice and work together to escape Carceri alive. Here's the party so far, with only one slot left to fill:
LG - Monk 16
NG - Cleric 3/Transmuter 3/Mystic Theurge 10
CG - Barbarian 5/Fighter 1/Champion of Gwenhyrwyf 10
LN - TBA
CN - Rogue 16
LE - Fighter 1/Warlock 5/Ur-Priest 10
NE - Ranger 15/Rogue 1
CE - Warmage 16
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RPG Superstar 2013 Top 32
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...and the MT will probably assist with the buffs (that's where MT's excel, since they have access to more lower level spells but fewer higher ones).
I've been playing too much World of Warcraft. I read 'MT' and first thought you meant 'main tank' as in 'frontline character who soaks up damage'. Then I realized that you meant Mystic Theurge and it made much more sense. :P
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RPG Superstar 2013 Top 32
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Oh, I remember seeing you mention that concept. Hmm, Bards can't be LN. Maybe you should use a Marshal, then. I could definitely see a LN Marshal.
What book is that class from? I've never heard of it.
Yeah, I was kind of thinking LN could do a Dwarven Defender and CG would take the bard but... nope. Definitely NOT a bard. Not even a little. C'est la vie.
Also, a druid could work. LN is within the range of valid druid alignments. I'm having difficulty picturing a lawful druid, but its allowed by the rules. We'd be going overkill on the divine casters though. Healing would FAIL to be a problem.
What book is that class from? I've never heard of it.
Miniature's handbook. The marshal's main feature is that he generates a minor and a major aura (minor aura bonus equal to Charisma, major aura a set value based on level) that affects all allies within 30 feet. The minor auras apply to set circumstances (such as AC against attacks of opportunity, or damage when flanking), while the major auras apply constantly (bonus x 5 to landspeed, damage reduction, Fortitude saves, etc.). They also have the ability to grant move actions to allies (I think 5/day at 20th). Very nifty 5th-wheel class.
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RPG Superstar 2013 Top 32
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What book is that class from? I've never heard of it.Miniature's handbook. The marshal's main feature is that he generates a minor and a major aura (minor aura bonus equal to Charisma, major aura a set value based on level) that affects all allies within 30 feet. The minor auras apply to set circumstances (such as AC against attacks of opportunity, or damage when flanking), while the major auras apply constantly (bonus x 5 to landspeed, damage reduction, Fortitude saves, etc.). They also have the ability to grant move actions to allies (I think 5/day at 20th). Very nifty 5th-wheel class.
Oh. I never really considered the Miniature's Handbook to be 'canon' material for D&D and always kind of thought it to be strictly relevant to the miniatures game (which I do not play). Therefore, I don't have that book either.
Fate, I laughed when I read your post. I to thought 'MT' was main tank the first time I read through it. Then I quickly reread it correctly. (Proud GM of Azeroths Elite on the Draka server)
Hmmmm. LN - I think it would be great for a Dwarven Defender. But it is outside the scope of a bard, which would make a great addition to the party. You really have everthing you need covered with the party, so I would say another damage dealer would be good. Fighter type or rogue type, even another mage to lend to the damage pool. The more DPS you put up the faster the mobs go down... There I am with WoW terms again... :)
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RPG Superstar 2013 Top 32
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...so I would say another damage dealer would be good. Fighter type or rogue type, even another mage to lend to the damage pool. The more DPS you put up the faster the mobs go down... There I am with WoW terms again... :)
This party has DPS in spades. A barbarian, a warmage, a rogue, a ranger, and a monk. How much more damage do you really need? There is only ONE utility character though, the Mystic Theurge. If he happens to get killed, the party has lost its ONLY utility character, the main healer and the main buffer.
If they lose the warmage, they lose a lot of big explosions but the ur-priest and theurge can kind of make up that loss with other spells. If they lose the rogue, they have the ranger's one rogue level for trapfinding (not to mention the clerics can cast find traps). If they lose the barbarian, at least they have a monk for melee. Losing the theurge would SUCK for them though. They really need a back-up buffer.
Artificer?
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RPG Superstar 2013 Top 32
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Artificer?
Someone mentioned that but, as this is a one-shot game, the crafting feats would be largely useless, the characters are going to be dealing with salvaged equipment, none of the players are playing warforged (or even similar construct-type things), and it just doesn't seem like it would be very effective or useful given those circumstances.
Since everyone agrees that a bard would be a good addition, why not make the character a bard/ dwarven defender? I don't think bards lose their abilities if they become lawful, do they? So the dwarf "was" a bard, then returned to his "lawful" dwarvish tendencies. Plus, with the other "meatshields" in place, he could play his music for the first few rounds, then rush in to help... Or is that just a bad multiclass idea?
Okay, well, a 16th level Transmuter would rock the buffs.
Try starting as dwarven fighter/4 (gains the extra feat) then cleric/3(cure mod wounds) then dwarven defender/9 this gives the self healing meat shield with clout. I don't have my DMG handy but I think you need to be level 7 for dwarven defender this could be modified in the fighter area if dwarven defender is sooner.
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RPG Superstar 2013 Top 32
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Try starting as dwarven fighter/4 (gains the extra feat) then cleric/3(cure mod wounds) then dwarven defender/9 this gives the self healing meat shield with clout. I don't have my DMG handy but I think you need to be level 7 for dwarven defender this could be modified in the fighter area if dwarven defender is sooner.
The prereq for dwarven defender is a +7 BAB (among other things) so this build wouldn't quite work. You'd need either another fighter level or another cleric level. A fighter 4/samurai 3 might be an idea before entering dwarven defender... hmm.... I'll have to look at what samurai get at early levels to determine if it'll be useful.
I would suggest a Soulknife 5/Pyrokineticist 5/ Dwarven Defender 6. This gives you some powerful special abilities as well as another meatsheild.
Also, a druid could work. LN is within the range of valid druid alignments. I'm having difficulty picturing a lawful druid, but its allowed by the rules. We'd be going overkill on the divine casters though. Healing would FAIL to be a problem.
Druid 5/Scout 1/Daggerspell Shaper 10. Can buff, heal, cast damage spells, help with traps, and act as a meat-shield/infiltrator/obstacle-solver with Wildshape. Very much a utility character.
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RPG Superstar 2013 Top 32
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Well, the game happened and here's what we ended up with (people changed their minds at the last minute in a couple instances):
LG - Half-elf Monk 16
NG - Dwarf Cleric 3/Transmuter 3/Mystic Theurge 10
CG - Shifter (Eb) Barbarian 5/Ranger 1/Champ. of Gwyn 10
LN - DID NOT SHOW UP
CN - Kobold Rogue 16
LE - Half-Vistani (Ravenloft) Fighter 1/Warlock 5/Ur-Priest 10
NE - Drow Rogue 5/Assassin 9 (Lost 2 levels to LA)
CE - Gold Elf (FR) Warmage 16
So this entire thread was basically for naught. The game did not go well. Several people were late (3 hours late, in fact), one didn't even show up, and game got started on the wrong foot. The players decided that they would blast their ways through the floors of the tower instead of trying to decend by other means, causing entire floors of guards to rush after them due to all the noise. After nearly EIGHT CONTINUOUS HOURS OF NONSTOP COMBAT they managed to escape the tower. The spellcasters were running a little thin on firepower but they managed to secure their gear and took off.
Due to numerous distractions and people not listening to me when I called for silence so that we could continue the game, I did not get nearly as much content out of the session as I wanted to. Instead, I skipped to the final battle with a pit fiend. (One of the players, the monk, had gotten too tired by this point, so we ruled that they had died at some point in the interim since they would not be present at the last battle.)
The pit fiend saw them coming from a mile away and prepared himself with invisibility and unholy aura. The party had heard that a powerful outsider guarded the portal and I allowed them to refresh all of their spells during the downtime. They were fully refreshed, fully geared, and ready for battle. The party approached the portal, looking around for any threats. No one bothered with any kind of invisibility detection. The pit fiend used teleport to put itself right in the middle of the group and activated its fear aura (a free action). Only 2 party members passed the save (the Brb/Champion and the Ur-Priest). The rest went running like little girls. The pit fiend hammered on the Ur-Priest, who blew a miracle to simultaneously remove the fear from all the other party members and bring them back to where they started as well as heal himself (he worded it as "Return our party to the way we were before this creature attacked.") The following round, the fiend activated its fear aura again with the same results and again, the Ur-Priest and the barbarian were the only ones who passed. The unholy aura drained the barbarian's strength, the Ur-Priest's hit points didn't hold out long, and slowly but surely, the pit fiend caused a TPK. Poor preparation combined with amazingly crappy Will save rolls doomed the party. Most of the people said they had fun, a couple were kind of so-so on the issue. Personally, I was pretty ticked off with the whole affair and thought it was an absolutely horrible session because people wouldn't concentrate on the game and kept getting off-topic. When the game starts 3 hours later than you wanted it to and then what time you DO have gets wasted by people who aren't focused, it leads to a very unhappy DM (especially since he had put about 2 weeks of work into this one-shot campaign because friends he hadn't seen in a year were coming back to town for a week to play).
Grrr... perhaps this belongs in the rant thread. C'est la vie.
P.S. The monsters inside the tower consisted entirely of the three varieties of Inevitable found in the MM (at least a dozen of each), a gelugon, and 4 Githyanki psychic warriors (all level 12).