Asmodeus?
Asmodeus?
As-mo-de-us?
(How's the Archdevil's backstory?)
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I also liked the creation myth. Very well done. My favorite part, "Read the fine print." Classic!
The other thing I am impressed with is the way they have focused on the whole "trade for souls to gain power" thing as the basis for everything. It's the foundation for everything they do, and the driving force behind the devil's ultimate goal of complete domination of the multiverse.
In the end, the book is alike, yet very different from, the FC I, and that is as it should be.
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Not bought it yet, but you sold me. Demons and devils never really seemed to be that different to me - y'know, just different shades of evil. This makes things quite distinct, playing on th law vs chaos theme, and I like that.
They even have a small section where they purposely point out the differences between devils and demons. And, yeah, the basis for it is the whole law vs chaos angle. I find it refreshing.
Oh yeah, they give three great little tables of things that devils offer in Faustian bargains: a table of money, a table of experience, and a table of assorted rewards. Sweet!
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Let me also add my praise for this book. Enough like FCI to keep it familiar but different enough to give the Devils a very different feel from the Demons. I'm quite pleased. The Archdevils are statted in much the same way as the Demon Princes from FCI, although they did make it slightly more clear in FCII that they are meant to be aspects and not the Archdevils themselves. I recall James Jacobs saying that was the intent with FCI as well, but the message didn't quite make it through as well as was intended.
One final thought, I really liked the Faustian Pact tables as well. I usually just role-play that kind of stuff if a PC wants to make a bargain with a devil. Still, I found the tables immensely useful for figuring out the sorts of things that a devil might offer a prospective client. Here's hoping we see a FCIII book on the Yugoloths or something similar down the road.
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I doubt there is mileage on yugoloths alone (though it is a great blank slate to build upon) but I can certainly see them getting theit due alond side other types of outsider in a single volume: slaadi, rakshasa and so on. Not maybe so interested in the good outsiders (not much mileage as baddies, which is what most DMs want).
I also liked the creation myth. Very well done. My favorite part, "Read the fine print." Classic!
The other thing I am impressed with is the way they have focused on the whole "trade for souls to gain power" thing as the basis for everything. It's the foundation for everything they do, and the driving force behind the devil's ultimate goal of complete domination of the multiverse.
In the end, the book is alike, yet very different from, the FC I, and that is as it should be.
Try CS Lewis's "The Screwtape Letters" you'll laugh, gain a better understanding of human nature, and have an elegant model for an infernal economy of souls - OR get the audio book read by John Cleese - its awesome.
I doubt there is mileage on yugoloths alone (though it is a great blank slate to build upon) but I can certainly see them getting theit due alond side other types of outsider in a single volume: slaadi, rakshasa and so on.
In 1e material it's about even for the material covering the various types of fiends, while in 2e the page count for material covering the 'loths versus demons versus devils is marginally higher for the 'loths, then baatezu, then tanar'ri.
It's really only 3e that has marginalized the 'loths by comparison to their wayward CE and LE cousins (or perhaps distant children as the case might be in some cases). Since they were excluded from the 3e MM for reasons of page count and not wanting to crowd the book with too many outsiders, they were, by virtue of the early 3.x restrictions on using anything outside of 'core', restricted in their exposure.
It wasn't that there was less material on them to build upon, nor that they were any less important than the other fiends, they were just nailed by the creative restrictions in place at the time, which has sadly implied a lack of importance.
If they were to get a book in 3e, it'd go a long way to dispensing with the implied status they've been granted. Heck, an article or two in Dragon *hopeful wink wink nudge nudge to the editors* might help the situation as well.
Another interesting difference is that the levels of Hell are all more or less mapped out in their entirety. Unlike the Abyss, they are not "infinite." Some may remember my rant a few months back about "infinite" planes and how I didn't like the concept- this book more or less does away with that. For example, Nessus is only around 2,500 miles from one end to the other. Still nice and big, but not "infinite."
Also, I like the Hellbred. That's the first and only race detailed outside the PHB (not counting the various subraces detailed in campaign settings and MMs) that I actually like. The alternate racial abilities is interesting, though they might also prove cumbersome.
I also liked the creation myth, especially the version that claims that the Nine layers were created by the impact of Asmodeus, and the canyon he made in Nessus, at the bottom of which is The Pit. Very epic, good mythos to have in a game world!
I dislike the idea of a "fall from grace" in the natural world (the world is made by the laws of nature, which are perfect, thus this world is perfect; it's only the actions of people that can mar it), but I love villains who have undergone such a "Fall." It makes them so much more interesting, and begs to tell a story about just what made them come tumbling down.
My only dissapointment (meaning I liked the book) is the CR levels of Baalzebul CR 23, Mephistopheles CR 24 and Asmodeus CR 27. Now I would not mind high CRs for all Demon Princes and Archdevil except the best we had from demons was Cr 23 for Demogorgon even Graz'zt and Orcus were CR 22. So by comparison Baalzebul should not be better. The same goes for Mephistopheles. Now I am fine with Asmodeus being higher than all Demon Lords/Princes but a 27 is not playable except in epic play.
Much of the positives have already been stated. One thing I would have liked to see for both FC was more pages. Here is hoping there is enough support for other fiends for a FC III.
I don't have the FC II yet, but this was my main concern as well. From my understaning the desingers had intentionally made the demon princes in FC I weaker than they had been in the Book of Vile Darkness, so that they would be better for high level play, and you wouldn't have to be epic level to take them on. This seemed like a acceptable plan, but why would you undermine that in FC II. Demogorgon and Orcus should be at least as tough as Mephistopheles and close to as tough as Asmodeus. Again I don't have the book yet some perhaps my perception of this injustice is off. If anyone can enlighten me I'd like to know.
My only dissapointment (meaning I liked the book) is the CR levels of Baalzebul CR 23, Mephistopheles CR 24 and Asmodeus CR 27. Now I would not mind high CRs for all Demon Princes and Archdevil except the best we had from demons was Cr 23 for Demogorgon even Graz'zt and Orcus were CR 22. So by comparison Baalzebul should not be better. The same goes for Mephistopheles. Now I am fine with Asmodeus being higher than all Demon Lords/Princes but a 27 is not playable except in epic play.
Much of the positives have already been stated. One thing I would have liked to see for both FC was more pages. Here is hoping there is enough support for other fiends for a FC III.
Creative Director
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There's no way to present a demon lord or archdevil in a print product so that he'll be at the right power level for every DM. Some DMs want them to be the bad guys you fight at the end of a campaign, others want them to be the bad guys you face many times during a campaign, and others want them to be tougher than everything else in the campaign (except for, perhaps, the gods). This level of variation is further complicated by the fact that each DM's campaign runs at a different power level; to one group, 10th level characters may be the toughest in the realm, but to another, 40th level characters might be the toughest.
So as a result, no matter WHAT a demon lord or archdevil is statted up as, he's going to be too powerful for some groups to use and not powerful enough for other groups to use.
My answer to this problem (as far as Fiendish Codex I was concerned) was to provide statistics for the absolute minimum power level for the 14 demon lords that appear in that book. The CR 20–23 versions there represent the least powerful these bad guys should ever be, but encourages the DM to advance them as appropriate for his own campaign world. If demon lords had Advancement lines in their stat blocks, they would say, "Infinite." The demon lords I've described in the Demonomicon articles present the demon lords in the CR range of 24–32, which is personally where I prefer them.
For Fiendish Codex II (which had the advantage of seeing how Fiendish Codex I's nebulous wording of this concept caused so much confusion), the authors just made the arch devils aspects. This is certainly the best way to interpret the demon lords in Fiendish Codex I, and makes it easier for most DMs to grasp the concept of "these are the baselines; the real thing is more powerful."
There's no way to present a demon lord or archdevil in a print product so that he'll be at the right power level for every DM. Some DMs want them to be the bad guys you fight at the end of a campaign, others want them to be the bad guys you face many times during a campaign, and others want them to be tougher than everything else in the campaign (except for, perhaps, the gods). This level of variation is further complicated by the fact that each DM's campaign runs at a different power level; to one group, 10th level characters may be the toughest in the realm, but to another, 40th level characters might be the toughest.
So as a result, no matter WHAT a demon lord or archdevil is statted up as, he's going to be too powerful for some groups to use and not powerful enough for other groups to use.
My answer to this problem (as far as Fiendish Codex I was concerned) was to provide statistics for the absolute minimum power level for the 14 demon lords that appear in that book. The CR 20–23 versions there represent the least powerful these bad guys should ever be, but encourages the DM to advance them as appropriate for his own campaign world. If demon lords had Advancement lines in their stat blocks, they would say, "Infinite." The demon lords I've described in the Demonomicon articles present the demon lords in the CR range of 24–32, which is personally where I prefer them.
For Fiendish Codex II (which had the advantage of seeing how Fiendish Codex I's nebulous wording of this concept caused so much confusion), the authors just made the arch devils aspects. This is certainly the best way to interpret the demon lords in Fiendish Codex I, and makes it easier for most DMs to grasp the concept of "these are the baselines; the real thing is more powerful."
Makes perfect sense. Now what about FC III?
There's no way to present a demon lord or archdevil in a print product so that he'll be at the right power level for every DM. Some DMs want them to be the bad guys you fight at the end of a campaign, others want them to be the bad guys you face many times during a campaign, and others want them to be tougher than everything else in the campaign (except for, perhaps, the gods). This level of variation is further complicated by the fact that each DM's campaign runs at a different power level; to one group, 10th level characters may be the toughest in the realm, but to another, 40th level characters might be the toughest.
So as a result, no matter WHAT a demon lord or archdevil is statted up as, he's going to be too powerful for some groups to use and not powerful enough for other groups to use.
My answer to this problem (as far as Fiendish Codex I was concerned) was to provide statistics for the absolute minimum power level for the 14 demon lords that appear in that book. The CR 20–23 versions there represent the least powerful these bad guys should ever be, but encourages the DM to advance them as appropriate for his own campaign world. If demon lords had Advancement lines in their stat blocks, they would say, "Infinite." The demon lords I've described in the Demonomicon articles present the demon lords in the CR range of 24–32, which is personally where I prefer them.
For Fiendish Codex II (which had the advantage of seeing how Fiendish Codex I's nebulous wording of this concept caused so much confusion), the authors just made the arch devils aspects. This is certainly the best way to interpret the demon lords in Fiendish Codex I, and makes it easier for most DMs to grasp the concept of "these are the baselines; the real thing is more powerful."
Basically Eberron is played to top out at 20th. Greyhawk at 30th and Forgotten Realms at 40th. I think few players are playing above 40th level because it becomes such a monumental effort to create characters and advance monsters. The Epic Level Handbook goes up to 30th level and then provides a scale for advancing further. My point after all of this rambling- adding 4-8 pages and having the 24th-32 CR fiend bosses would have gone over with great success. If cost would have been a factor an extra two dollars would been easily absorbed by happy fans. Even for campaigns at 40th level the conversion would have been easier. Just some thoughts for FC III.
Everybody has their own approach, and mine's probably in the minority here -- we don't play at levels where demon lords are beatable.
I played Vampire, and I loved their approach with Antediluvians (the oldest of the vampires) -- go up against one and you die. No need for stats, no need for rolling, end of story.
For me, stats in FC I (and FC II) provide a few abilities for them to demonstrate before they (mercifully) exit or before the more foolhardy players die.
IMC :)
Jack
"Basically Eberron is played to top out at 20th. Greyhawk at 30th and Forgotten Realms at 40th. I think few players are playing above 40th level because it becomes such a monumental effort to create characters and advance...
I hadn't really considered this before, however I agree. Was this a personal observation or did you actually read this somewhere? At anyrate, I suppose my quip with the demon lords being kind of weak probably stems from the fact that I run a forgotten realms campaign, and in that world there seem to be many Epic level NPCs that could mop the floor with a demon prince. Furthermore, I assume that because they are unique the stats that they were given in FC I were intended to be their true stats. However, if you take a look at any of the more powerful demons, their stats are only baseline stats and they can be advanced much higher, a Balor who is even advanced a little bit can quickly become more powerful than stats presented for demogorgon, which doen't quite sit with me right. But thak you James for making it clear that the demon lord stats are intended to be minimum stats.
I'm not sure if I feel comfortable with the idea of their stats being "aspects", I mean I could see that if they were encountered on the material plane the version you might face could be some kind of avatar or aspect, but if you are fighting them on their home turf, isn't it more probable that you are facing the real thing? Furthermore, the idea of aspects and avatars to me connotes divinity, so if the demon lords or arch devils have a divine rank than aspects and avatars make sense, but if they don't than I think the demon lord you face should be the real thing. Personally, I prefer demon lords without divine ranks, but who are aspiring to gain them. However, I'd probably give Asmodeus a divine rank or two. I suppose my point is that I think have demon lords and arch devils without divine ranks was a good idea, but I dislike the idea that their stats are intended to be aspects. I think they should be presented with a greater range of challenge ratings, so that some are beatable by high level characters and some will require more epic level PC's to defeat. This is especially true with the demon lords, since they are supposed to be such a scattered and group of creatures. Demogorgon might sit at CR 27-30 and Baphomet could be fine with the stats given to him in the FC I. In terms of the arch devils, because they exist in a heirarchy, I think each one should generally get progressively tougher (which may be the case, but I don't have that book yet).
Anyhow, I'm interested to see how Demogorgon is presented in the Savage Tide, since he is probably my favourite DnD villain.
Basically Eberron is played to top out at 20th. Greyhawk at 30th and Forgotten Realms at 40th. I think few players are playing above 40th level because it becomes such a monumental effort to create characters and advance...
I'm not sure I agree with the statement regarding Greyhawk. I'd claim that there's no precedent (or meaningful support) for PCs going beyond 20th within the setting. Only a few isolated examples of NPCs at this level exist, and they are portrayed as wildly more powerful than PCs.
I'll admit, this claim might just be my own personal biases coming through.
Past quibbling about specific numbers (which is all I'm doing), I agree completely with the point being made.
And for the sake of discussion, I suspect its a small minority that even exceed 20th -- enough to support some book sales, obviously, but I've seen litte of it. It would be interesting to poll people about play at epic levels.
Just my 2 cents :)
Jack
Poor James and Erik...they are constantly asked about FC III. From what i hear...they don't know either. i wish WOTC would at least let people know if they were even considering it...it is asked enough on the boards.
As for FC II......i loved it as much as FC I in its own way. i like that there were significant differences in style between the two books...even with the conflicting creation myths. This diversifies settings...and ultimately gives more options and intrique. i don't trip about the levels of the devil/demon lords. Add Your own levels.
Now...as for the CRs of ultroloths....feh!
i wish WOTC would at least let people know if they were even considering it...it is asked enough on the boards.
i don't trip about the levels of the devil/demon lords. Add Your own levels.
Now...as for the CRs of ultroloths....feh!
-I agree totally. CR 13 is way too low for the "masters" of the yugoloths; or at least the pit fiends/balors of the yugoloths. But, again, just give 'em a few extra goodies and be happy. There can never be, in a product world where people are given so much freedom to do their own thing, any single standard set 'o rules that will make everyone happy. You try to please most of the people most of the time and leave the others to their own devices...-