Zherog and myself touched on what I think might be an interesting topic on the Do Touch Spells Stack thread.
How long do your significant stated villains live after they meet the party? Do they usually have a really good escape plan and harass the party repeatedly during an adventure or are they likely to take a fall early on?
My personal experience has been that most significant villains have about three rounds in which to make a major impact. They usually die but those that don't essentially convince the party that they are defeated within this time frame.
Zherog felt differently and I'll post his comment regarding that here as well.
I don't necessarily think we're talking past one another; but I do think we have different expectations for an encounter.
You expect what seems to be a major bad guy to live for three rounds, tops. I expect him to live much longer - because with rare exceptions, my NPCs aren't suicidal. They have a desire to live, not die.
I'm definitely interested in finding out what other DMs have found in this regards.
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I'm definitely interested in finding out what other DMs have found in this regards.
I would probably agree more with Zherog on this one. I certainly expect (and hope) that the major villian of each adventure (assuming it comes down to a combat with them) would last more than 3 rounds. I would generally aim for something like 10 rounds, and give them an escape plan if they are the type to back out on a fight (likewise, I try not to portray all or even most villians as suicidal).
Ways to achieve this? The obvious, such as high AC, lots of hit points, regeneration, access to healing. Other ways include minions, summoned monsters, threatened NPCs or other things for party members to worry about so that they can't all (easily) concentrate on the villian at once. Let villians know and use the terrain to their advantage (as they are often confronted in their lair, they should nearly always have a tactical advantage over the PCs).
If the PCs come up with a good way to defeat the villian in a few rounds - well, good on them. But I find those quick defeats are a lot less memorable than villians who can last a long time in the final combat, and do some serious damage to the party in the meantime.
In my Slavers campaign, some of the main villains escaped in the final fight (at the docks of Suderham). The illusionist Lamonsten dimension doored away, and Eclavdra the drow priestess used a Word of Recall (to wherever she had a secret hideout). So, yes, some of my villains do get away. The monk and the half-orc weren´t so lucky, though, but the monk did beat the crap out of the PCs before going down. I think he lasted longer than three rounds.
Otherwise, some villains don´t even get a chance to get away. Between a half-orc barbarian and a monk, escape gets rather difficult for the villains without me as DM using a very heavy-handed approach stinking of arbitariness, and the druidess and the sorcerer as artillery don´t make it any easier.
Stefan
I've had the same problem too. Statted villains run by the DM can't match four independently thinking adventurers unless they have an escape route.
Word of Recall is a good resourse, as are trapped tunnels, minions who can stall or split up the PCs, high Saves and bucketloads of HP.
The most important thing is for the villian to use that option when things are still going their way! It sucks sending a villain away with their tail between their legs.
One additional suggestion: GIVE ALL YOUR STATTED VILLIANS MAXIMUM HIT POINTS! It's dirty pool, but it helps the plot!
How long do your significant stated villains live after they meet the party? Do they usually have a really good escape plan and harass the party repeatedly during an adventure or are they likely to take a fall early on?
I come from a very comic book oriented background to preface this. My villains generally always have some kind of escape plan, or manage to survive certain doom if any possibility is left to do so.
In my first campaign, the main bad guy was always escaping, and my players HATED it. They really unload on BBEG's now, and I find it hard to have equal threat level BBEG's escape.
But yeah, I'm drifting more towards the norm in my SCAP campaign, with major villains living less than 10 rounds (though they left Kazmojen for dead, who had stabilized at -9, forgetting their almost omnipresent coup de grace).
My two coppers,
-c
Occassions when the major villian has fallen in less than 10 rounds in any of my campaigns are rare, if not nonexistent. Of course we only play with the core books and my players tend to stick to "standard" player options. That aside, I still side with Zherog. I don't like having the BBEG just standing in some final chamber waiting to get slaughtered like some sheep. I like to have escape plans when feasible. The adventure paths don't always make this easy though as some villians justs are too disruptive and anti-climactic when making reappearances.
If the battle with a major villian isn't memorable enough to desire further mention for months or even years in the future, I feel like I've somehow failed as the DM. I want the players to at least sigh in relief and crawl away after dealing with a BBEG.
To ellaborate a bit on my thoughts...
Villains generally have an "escape" plan - even if the plan is "when I drop to 1/3rd hit points, surrender." Other times, it's a dimension door or teleport spell held in reserve. Once it involved taking a 5' step backwards and casting one of the wall spells (I forget which one, though I think it was ice).
But there's more to it than just an escape plan. My villains plan on winning. They use minions to weaken the PCs and generally get in the way. They take advantage of buff spells. There's buffs that last a long time (greater magic weapon, magic vestment, etc) that should definitely be cast beforehand. Then there's buffs the BBEG casts once he knows the PCs are on the way (if he doesn't just leave at that point). Start with the 10 min/level spells, then the 1 min/level spells, and finish up with the really short 1 round/level buffs just before the PCs kick in the door.
Plenty of times, the villain simply stays out of the way. He has a method of flight, for example, and stays up near the ceiling. Barbarians with Power Attack can't do any damage if they can't reach the foe. Or he has displacement and/or mirror image. You don't even need to be a caster for some of these - magic items, even if you're relying on Use Magic Device, grant any of these abilities.
So coming back to the Two-Wand Killing Machine (tm) from the other thread that started this (quite interesting) side conversation: It's a really fun concept, and I think your PCs should have a fun time fighting him. My only point was that you shouldn't so quickly discount two things:
1) Defensive magic; cast those buff spells at appropriate times
2) The Bad Guy's desire to live
The last one is especially key, I think, to surviving a fight with the PCs.
A recent bad guy I used had some Monk levels (great saves), the psionic ability to reflect arrows back to the shooter (very nasty), and plenty of skill in Tumble, made havok on the battlefield and managed to escape before getting too hurt.
The players hated that slippery zen bastage.
Once combat is initiated, a BBEG has a life expectancy of about 4 rounds, and they rarely have opportunity to escape. If I want a BBEG to live, the way this is achieved is simple: avoid combat.
Using the item creation guidelines in the DMG, a one-use Teleport item costs between 2,250 and 2,500 gold pieces, a one-use dimension door item should cost even less. No good villain should ever be without one!
Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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The amount of time a villian lives is inversely proportionate to the amount of time I spend preparing his stats and figuring out how he will escape.
(Also, is it just me, or does everyone else's bad guy fail to escape due to the fact that it takes a move equivalent to pull out the scroll/open the door/etc?)
My general experience is consistent with yours Jeremy - a villian will last approximately 3 rounds unless there is some barrier to the PC's closing (fog cloud, rough terrain, a lot of mooks).
I'm not entirely uncomfortable with the phenomenon. I find that most BBEG's run out of juice around round 5 or so anyway, so that's about the longest I want them to last. I would almost go so far as to say that if the BBEG is lasting 10 rounds, you're probably looking at an anti-climactic battle. A 10 round battle is usually a result of one or both parties having very high defenses. It's not very exciting when the fight consists mostly of missed attack rolls, failed SR checks, and successful saves.
I used to be very big on having all bad guys escape/surrender. However, it was annoying the hell out of my players, particularly the surrendering. They'd end up with an unwanted prisoner and never felt comfortable killing him or letting him go. It got to be annoying, so I changed the play tactics to make the mooks more suicidal/disposable.
As for the BBEG, he should generally have an escape plan, but there's a lot of room for those with huge egos that believe they can defeat the PC's even when the deck is stacked against them. I'm a big hater of teleportation devices and other escape methods. It's one thing if used sparringly or if the BBEG escapes through some other means; it's another if "beam me up scotty" is the last thing every villian ever says. The thread about Kazmojen has a great story about a party that threw him in a spiked pit along with some flaming oil and then got distracted and allowed him to escape. An escape should be organic to the situation, not a pre set switch that can be flipped with a free action.
Plus, my experience is that more often than not, my villian's escape plan fails. That means instead of having the final round of his life be an attack or something interactive with the PC's, it's them chasing him down like a dog. Not a very memorable way to go.
Ultimately, escape is one of those elements that, while realistic, is not very fun. Players hate it, particularly when it feels forced, and I can't say I blame them. Action movies always have the bad guy getting killed, he never gets to stand trial. It provides closure and a sense of accomplishment. That being said, used sparingly, escapes can create a running antagonist; used libearlly, it can create a frustration headache.
Well, my arch villains are going on 20 years now; the party has met most of them more than once; some as many as 8 or 9 times and they have never even fought. One of my arch villain anti paladins was actually kidnapped and delivered to the party by an npc and he, believe it or not, talked his way out of it and walked away. Lol, I guess my party has a big wimp factor built into their psychy as they are all terrified of my bad guys; who really are not that tuff; they havent even met the really tuff bad guys above the known arch villians who give these villains their marching orders. Sigh, my world is really messed up as several of the party over the years have gone over to the bad guys and some have become arch villian npcs themselves. So hard to find a good guy anymore.
I have the fortune of having a player who is capable of drawing comic book quality art, and has illustrated many of my villains, both lesser and more memorable ones. I get most of the illustrations he does laminated, and when one of my illustrated villains delivers the killing blow/spell/etc to a player character, I put a Star sticker on the back of the laminated illustration, creating what I like to call, my "Star Villains." The stars on the back of the sheets have a great way of irking my players to near record levels.
My most accredited star villain is a 10th level Fighter who has himself killed 11 player characters, and will soon be making a reappearance to collect more PC heads for his trophy wall. The PC's are always within a level or two of him when they fight him. I have him buy several potions to drink before he goes into battle, and he usually has an NPC cleric spellcaster drop a Spell Immunity spell (protecting him from Dispel Magic and Ray of Enfeeblement). If I can squeeze in a Stoneskin on him, then it's even worse on my players.
Fellow Killer GM's need but give out a few potions, scrolls, oils, and 1-use magic items; and you can have a very dangerous NPC villain on your hands, and still be within the listed gold piece value recommended for NPC's and be able to adequately wipe out your players, or at least be able to bravely run away when they do get through your offensive and defensive capabilities.
I think one key, if you want your villain to live to fight another day, is to punch out before it's too late. The 25% hp trigger leaves very little margin for error, especially if the villain is in tight quarters. If you really want a recurring villain, keep a good defensive barrier (buffs, mooks, physical space, and deception are all helpful here), and punch out at the first sign the tide is turning.
If you just want the combat to be memorable, the defensive barrier is important as well--good tactics on your part make it a fun challenge for your players. A ten round battle with multiple participants can take up most of a session, but if it's a climactic encounter, it's worth it.
One additional suggestion (from military strategy)--keep a reserve that can be committed to battle at just the right moment. An effective villain will likely commit some of his forces to test the enemy--if they seem to do some significant damage, but are starting to falter, he sends in the backups. He may only wade into battle himself if it looks like he can win but needs to be at the forefront to inspire the troops. If you use this model, you can have the villain present for the battle, which will get the players' hackles up--you can keep the battle going for a while without overwhelming them, give them a chance to retreat if they're about to get mauled, and force them to use every last resource if they actually want to bring down the boss.
If the PCs have already chewed through the minions and healed up, rested up, and studied spells before they barge in on the BBEG, of course he'll go down quickly. So you want to make sure he has the means to follow the progress of the assault, muster his reserves, and set up a defense in the best tactical location. Make sure he strikes while the PCs are weak and forces them to run away. (You might have to teach your players to back down from bad odds the hard way). Villains that sit in their inner sanctum waiting for the good guys get pwned, and they deserve it.
One other thought--I see two different styles of play reflected in the attitudes and approaches here. One is the "tailor the encounter to the PCs" method laid out in the 3E DMG--where you do careful calculations about how many encounters the party can handle and make sure not to throw them anything overpowering, so that the story can continue. The other is "there's lots of evil in the world, and the PCs can't handle all of it." I think it's more of a 1E style of play, where you have a big dungeon or wilderness or city, and the players are allowed to get themselves in over their heads, or killed, if they make the wrong decisions.
I don't think either way of playing is wrong--it depends a lot on the group. I tend toward the first method when I DM, but I'm playing right now in a campaign where the second set of rules applies (old gamers!) Both styles can be fun!
While it's fairly trivial to escape or bring back almost any villain in dnd, I'm positively amazed at the people who can get them to survive more than 10 rounds as a usual thing. I've had some do so, of course, but it's a rarity - even with maximum hit points, highly advanced hit dice / class levels, temporary hit points, tons of buffs, screens of minions, terrain, etc, a battle that goes over 6 rounds is abnormal.
And we even play fairly toned down dnd, minimizing instakill and combo tactics that _really_ tend to make combats go faster.
Well, my arch villains are going on 20 years now; the party has met most of them more than once; some as many as 8 or 9 times and they have never even fought. One of my arch villain anti paladins was actually kidnapped and delivered to the party by an npc and he, believe it or not, talked his way out of it and walked away. Lol, I guess my party has a big wimp factor built into their psychy as they are all terrified of my bad guys; who really are not that tuff; they havent even met the really tuff bad guys above the known arch villians who give these villains their marching orders. Sigh, my world is really messed up as several of the party over the years have gone over to the bad guys and some have become arch villian npcs themselves. So hard to find a good guy anymore.
Well, most leader type bad guys, you know - the middle management guys - they dont last long; a few rounds before they are vanquished in some way.
~WEG~ The best way to ensure that a Villian survives more than 3 rounds is to give them the list "If I were an Evil Overlord". The Players would not stand a chance!
Also, most major NPCs would have studied the players and know at least some of their strengths and weaknesses. They would play up the weaknesses and play down the strengths. Nor would they ususally be alone.
The amount of time a villian lives is inversely proportionate to the amount of time I spend preparing his stats and figuring out how he will escape.
I used to be very big on having all bad guys escape/surrender. However, it was annoying the hell out of my players, particularly the surrendering. They'd end up with an unwanted prisoner and never felt comfortable killing him or letting him go. It got to be annoying, so I changed the play tactics to make the mooks more suicidal/disposable.
I'm a big hater of teleportation devices and other escape methods. It's one thing if used sparringly or if the BBEG escapes through some other means; it's another if "beam me up scotty" is the last thing every villian ever says.
I agree with Sebastian. If I spend hours building my villain for a campaign arc, he's gonna live no matter what the players do. Dr. Doom has his robotic duplicates and mages have clones or simulacrums. It's not a cheat if it furthers the story and increases the overall gaming experience.
In the final battle, my players get to have full effect. They've explored the villain and now understand his motives and power, so they are ready for him.
My players also hate the unwanted prisoner aspect, but have learned that they may better explore the NPC more closely. Some have even tried kindness to open a dialogue. To often the villain is a "behind-the-scenes" impersonal mechanism. Often PCs never find out the villains motives. Books and movies usually show the villain in a more 3-D manner. My PCs like to talk to the villains.
Teleportation stinks. Once in a while it is OK, but when the players see a pattern... Let them "kill" him if they must. They'll feel better for it. Just don't tell them it was his assistant - clone - lieutenant - surgically altered duplicate, but do leave clues for them to find this out if they ask.
Cheers
Sketch, either you misunderstood Sebastian or I did. He wrote that the life expectancy of villians in his game is *inversely* proportionate to the time & effort devoted to their stats,etc. That means that the more effort Sebastian puts into some BBEG (and the implied importance of said villian to the storyline), the quicker death is rained down on said BBEG. I'm just guessing here but that's probably due to the fact that just as motivated as the DM (Sebastian) is to familiarizing himself with the details/tactics of the bad guy, the PCs are equally motivated in likewise familiarizing themselves so that they can kill him as quickly & efficiently as possible.
I should adjust my own comments on this thread by saying I don't believe *every* villian or even every major villian should escape/attempt to escape. Middle management is almost always wasted without effort and a good portion of the "archvillians" serve little other purpose than to further the PCs' heroic progress. It is very dependent on what will best further the storyplan and how "deserving" the PCs are to hand this bad guy the death blow. My main peeve is when module authors or DM-designed adventures present clever villians as idiotic in their tactics. I refuse to believe any dragon, vampire, rakashasa (sorry, spelling?), mind flayer, beholder, or any other *genius* villian is just sitting in their inner sanctum waiting obliviously to get pasted by PCs who are likely not even full strength after navigating the obstacles of said villian's lair.
It's minorly irritating but not a game-ender by any means if a villian I have spent endless hours perfecting goes down like a chump in the final battle ... provided, that is, that the PCs played well & had fun and that the villian at least *attempted* to behave logically.
Teleportation is not a end all save and can be combated if the party is ready for it. i have always been a bit surprized that even though in the fantasy genre it exists; there is no teleportation tracking spell in the game. Anything in the game can be combated by resourceful players; anything.
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Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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Sketch, either you misunderstood Sebastian or I did. He wrote that the life expectancy of villians in his game is *inversely* proportionate to the time & effort devoted to their stats,etc. That means that the more effort Sebastian puts into some BBEG (and the implied importance of said villian to the storyline), the quicker death is rained down on said BBEG. I'm just guessing here but that's probably due to the fact that just as motivated as the DM (Sebastian) is to familiarizing himself with the details/tactics of the bad guy, the PCs are equally motivated in likewise familiarizing themselves so that they can kill him as quickly & efficiently as possible.
Yup, my bad guys always go down like chumps, particularly when I invest a lot of energy in them. Maybe Sketch was agreeing with how annoying it is to take them prisoners (though there are some benefits, as he mentioned).
It is very dependent on what will best further the storyplan and how "deserving" the PCs are to hand this bad guy the death blow. My main peeve is when module authors or DM-designed adventures present clever villians as idiotic in their tactics. I refuse to believe any dragon, vampire, rakashasa (sorry, spelling?), mind flayer, beholder, or any other *genius* villian is just sitting in their inner sanctum waiting obliviously to get pasted by PCs who are likely not even full strength after navigating the obstacles of said villian's lair.
I agree. I'm not so bummed when my players manage to defeat a villian, but it does bug me when a dungeon is set up so that the final boss is in the final room waiting for the adventurers to show. I think the problem is that a dynamic villian is a lot harder to plan, a lot harder to run, and a lot harder to pack into a module. One of the things I dislike about high level play is that you frequently have a hoarde of these high intelligence baddies that are used as cannon fodder. The various undead in the last portions of AoW are a good example.
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I recently ran an encounter set in Sharn for characters who aren't from the Eberron world. They had just finished a job that ended with them arriving in Sharn and collecting on their wages. The group semi-scattered to learn more about the world they are now in, make some money, etc.., when one of them was approached by a moderately highly placed House adimistrator. His head of security had discovered that someone wanted to steal a shipment due to be picked up by emissaries of the Undying Court (I've established the UC as People You Really Don't Want To Piss Off) in just under two weeks. Unfortunately, the rogue of the party had just gotten himself hired as a lookout by the to-be Heisters...
They chose to stop the heist - more money, and they liked the idea of being in favor with the House in question & the UC. Some good investigation & a little undercover work followed, which probably kept them from a complete disaster.
They'd been able to walk over a few bad-guys by merit of either dice rolls, great ideas, or a combination of both, so the Heist was a big jolt to them. They were pretty sure someone was to be snuck in inside a crate and asked the on-site mage on the security team to check for life-signs in the crates (she used Detect Thoughts).
The assault opened up with a Warforged & a Mind Flayer coming out of a crate - the W-F had been rendered dormant by a timed, custom-made infusion, and the M-F used its telepathy & high Will save to avoid detection. The M-F dropped people right and left with its Mind Blast and the crate team made for the two key-holders (two are needed to open the secure vault, and one was a traitor). Meanwhile, two 'sniper teams' (each: one rogue with heavy repeating crossbow with "scope" and five True Strike + Sniper's Shot bolts, one dual-wielding fighter) had LOS on the 'cargo door' to the warehouse, and four 5th level rogues were swooping in on gliders. And ALL of them looked exactly alike! (A male half-elf in a particular set of clothes...)
The whole thing lasted at least 10 rounds. Most of the party was down for at least 3/4 of the fight overall from Mind Blast, but the security team and a strategic Wall of Flame combined with the attackers' objective kept them too busy for foe a coupe. The party finally got the upper hand by the skin of their teeth, so the attackers started bailing...
Two of the rogues in gliders didn't even make it to the fight - the Wall had cut them off. The other two bolted and bailed out the cargo entrance (350 ft above the ground) and used Featherfall talismans. The traitor tried the same thing but botched his Wisdom check to get the timing right (*SPLAT*). One sniper was caught by a wizard with Flight and a successful Charm - he was convinced to hand over his crossbow and go after his buddy. The wiz used the crossbow (with a True Strike bolt) and nailed the other sniper. Both sniper team fighters got away by running for it. The M-F had failed save & SR vs Otto's Irresistable Dance and gotten schwacked to negs, so they had him, and the W-F got gang-tackled by the security team.
Okay - lots of detail, but I hope they properly explain things so folks see how I set things up...
The attackers had no real interest in specifically killing anyone, they really just wanted the cargo. The M-F sucked out the second key-holder's brain to use Consume Memory (custom feat) so they could open the vault. The illithid was the only one willing to fight to the death because no cargo = no antidote (to an augmented implanted Slaad egg).
Items based on a few 1st level spells made a huge difference in this scenario and took it up a notch. Heavy bolts with Sneak Attack damage from a few hundred feet away were a real shock, Disguise Self tokens to made ALL of the attackers look the same, and Featherfall tokens to help them make their escapes...
Image how useful and challenging it would be for a lich with a Ring of Misdirection to use Disguise Self on itself and Disguise Self tokens on assorted undead and construct minions as the good guys closed in... Toss in some invisible baddies for good measure, even. That makes it much easier for the villain to escape if so desired.
3.245 seconds (with the right spell ;)
3.245 seconds (with the right spell ;)
You know you can speed it up with Quickened spells.
Wouldn't want the rest of your group getting bored or anything.
The life expectancy of my villains varies quite a bit. But in general, the smarter they are, the longer they live.
A big dumb pile-of-hps monster generally only lasts as long as it takes for the PCs to beat him down (usually 2-4 rounds). If he has some sort of nasty defensive ability (blink backed up by really good SR, for example), that can double that number.
A cunning archvillian with a lot of spells at his disposal is another matter. In fact, the PCs usually cannot defeat him the first time they encounter him. They have to clear out a bunch of his mooks, and evaluate his capabilities some, then run away and come back the next day rearmed and prepared. Even then he often gets away when he loses, rather than dies.
My philosophy behind making villians live longer is this: defense in depth. If you really want a creature to survive, give it several layers of protection (whether that be spells, mooks, magic items, or whatever).
The best way to increase the life expectancy of a villain is to ditch the BBEG/minions model and go with the evil group model. In other words, create a balanced party that uses tactics and teamwork, covers each others' weaknesses, and is designed to work together. You can still use minions and minor encounters, but the climactic fight is against the "inner circle," instead of a single opponent. The party is forced to spread their attention, which increases the life expectancy of the individual villains, and each villain is a credible threat, instead of a mook.
The problem with that is the way CRs and ELs are set up.
For instance, an NPC party of 1 rogue, 1 wizard, 1 fighter and 1 cleric is an EL4. That's VERY DIFFICULT for a 1st level PC party.
So even if the NPCs are on equal level as the PCs, the PCs are likely going to get flattened. If you reduce the levels of the NPCs, then the PCs are going to smash them because the NPCs are weaker.
Players should win out by virtue of their higher value of magic items - though it could possibly swing the other way when the bad guys use their entire wealth by level on a slew of one use items meant to help them win only this fight (since - for NPCs this is the only fight that matters).
I find that my baddies last somewhere between 3 and 10 rounds without Deus ex Machina involved. Though I can't really go crazy detailing how that happens, I will say that I try like crazy to invest a feeling of self-preservation in my NPCs. I've found that doing so even with the cannonfodder goes a long way towards establishing reasonable levels of believability when higher level bad gals start acting independantly. That is to say, my party is more understanding when the BBEG takes flight if his minions do to.
Spoiler for STAP:
For example, in TINH the party infiltrated the Lotus Dragon guildhall. They were driven out of the practice arena by the hiding rogues who surprised the heck out of them. The LDs then shut the stubborn doors. At some point, the LDs launched a counter attack and one of their number was still in the hall. What do the other five do? They shut the door on their mate- these invaders are slaughtering them! The party laughs and listens to see why, and it turns out that he did something to so-and-so to warrant it (stole 5gold)... you get the idea. While they party dispatched the hapless rogue, his buddies ran. The minions did something counter-produtctive that the party didn't expect. Next time, when the minions do something ultra-productive, (as Rowyn did later on) they were respectful of the NPC's ability to get away from them, and accepting that such weird things happen in the campaign.
A lot of my minion-types run away when the chips are down, and by extension, the BBEGs do to if things are looking bad. Things just feel more realistic to me that way. If anyone laid into the party in great swaths of devastation the way the party routinely does to NPCs, they'd think three times abotu running away, too.
The best way to increase the life expectancy of a villain is to ditch the BBEG/minions model and go with the evil group model. In other words, create a balanced party that uses tactics and teamwork, covers each others' weaknesses, and is designed to work together. You can still use minions and minor encounters, but the climactic fight is against the "inner circle," instead of a single opponent. The party is forced to spread their attention, which increases the life expectancy of the individual villains, and each villain is a credible threat, instead of a mook.The problem with that is the way CRs and ELs are set up.
For instance, an NPC party of 1 rogue, 1 wizard, 1 fighter and 1 cleric is an EL4. That's VERY DIFFICULT for a 1st level PC party.
CR 5, actually. A CR of average party level +4, by definition, is supposed to be an almost even fight for a four-character party (the PCs will have an edge in equipment).
It's not like a 1st level party will have an easy time with a 5th level NPC, either. In fact, a well designed cleric 5 will probably be more difficult, especially if given the chance to buff.
This advice is more geared to middle levels and up, when parties start wasting single BBEGs and minions become a limited threat. A well designed evil group of average party level -1 (a CR level +3 encounter) plus minions can be scarier to a group of PCs than a level +3 BBEG plus minions.
Am I the only one that doesn't see that as very realistic? I mean, sure, the NPC is a non-player character, but if we're going to treat them as a living, breathing individual with their own motivations, why WOULD they spend all of their money (and this is all of their money) on items they can only use once?Isn't that metagaming? I mean, does the villain really think that the PCs are the only adversaries they will ever face?
The problem is that the bad guys are woefully out gunned as their wealth by level guidelines are far inferior to the PCs. This means that even when the players finally come to grips with the Evil Grey Knight that has been their adversary for two adventures and has a number of levels on them he is actually far poorer than any of the players is even as individuals - not to mention the parties combined wealth. Allowing the NPCs to go for some potent one use items allows them to even the playing field a little without the danger of your players getting their hands on some item that will throw the whole campaign out of whack.
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I agree. I'm not so bummed when my players manage to defeat a villian, but it does bug me when a dungeon is set up so that the final boss is in the final room waiting for the adventurers to show. I think the problem is that a dynamic villian is a lot harder to plan, a lot harder to run, and a lot harder to pack into a module.
Too true. And trying to convert a set-piece adventure with the bad guy in the last room to something more dynamic often ends in a bunch of PC deaths (at least for me).
There was a drow outpost in City of the Spider Queen where the author tried to make it very clear how the baddies would position themselves and react once their guard was up. While I liked this approach, PCs venturing into that area once the garrison was alerted were still toast.
It's all in the timing. You've got to (a) make sure that said villains really have a means of being warned and ready for combat--which usually takes at least 5-10 rounds in a complex the size of the vanderboren mansion--and (b) throw them into combat at just the right time to make the PCs feel challenged but not overwhelmed. If need be, let the PCs rest 2-3 rounds, and just as they start to loot the bodies of their victims throw the next set of bad guys at them.
I generally agree that more combattants of modestly high level compared with the PCs makes for a more challenging combat than 1 BBEG and a few mooks. But a lot depends on the BBEG and mooks in question. If the BBEG can neutralize PCs on a regular basis (mind blast, paralysis, hold person, etc. with decently high saves), this can really turn things against the PCs in a hurry.
I have taken to the AP model of throwing BBEGs that are several CR's higher than party level at a party along with some mooks. It usually works. But it's OK once in a while to take out the BBEG quickly.
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** Bullywug Gambit spoilers **
Sure. And another trick is to dumb down the big villain a little bit to give the players a fighting chance. This was already done somewhat by the author when he listed several of the spells in Bua Gorg's repertoire as having been cast already. You really need to know your rules to change bad guy stats on the spot though.
I'm not knocking BWG - the combat we ended up with was tense and dynamic, especially when the Earth Elemental Gem (from TINH) was used, causing the environment to start collapsing around the combatants. And once the ceiling was compromised, I started adding the mooks on the second floor to the combat by dropping them through the holes in the ceiling.
The 'bad guy in the last room' phenomenon struck me as particularly jarring in the case of this adventure, since the bad guys were supposed to be setting up an ambush for Vanthus. I guess space constraints prohibited the author/editor from including notes on what happens in the manor when everyone becomes alerted. Also, my PCs were not particularly intelligent in the way they approached this fight. They just kind of blundered into it, despite advanced warning that Lavinia was a target. We ended up doing the whole manor in three fights.
Making the kind of changes we're talking about to an adventure in mid-fight and making the result both tense and ultimately survivable is something that I guess you probably get better at with DMing experience. For me, we had a 'talk amongst yourselves' moment while I tried to take inventory of the baddies remaining in the manor and figure out approximately how long it should take them to get to the fight. I think the elemental bailed me out of a TPK, because without that ally, my players were going down! Even with the elemental, the party beef took a dirt bath.
Creative Director
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One thing to keep in mind, and something that wasn't made clear in the text of the adventure, is that the situation in the Vanderboren Manor represents a snapshot at the time the PCs first arrive. While it's likely that the PCs enter the manor by the front door... they cn actually enter it from any number of locations including the cellar or via windows into the second floor or from the roof or wherever; 4th level characters already have a lot of options to aid in invasion scenarios like this one. Therefore, the only sane way to present the information on the intruders is to detail them where they start out.
If the PCs make a big scene and take their time, the other villians in the manor should ABSOLUTELY react as appropriate. Keep in mind that they're not that smart, though, and there's a certain amount of dispute among the bullywugs, so they won't mount a super-coordinated all-out defense of the manor, but having the villians react dynamically to your PCs actions is expected, to be honest.
One thing to keep in mind, and something that wasn't made clear in the text of the adventure, is that the situation in the Vanderboren Manor represents a snapshot at the time the PCs first arrive. While it's likely that the PCs enter the manor by the front door... they cn actually enter it from any number of locations including the cellar or via windows into the second floor or from the roof or wherever; 4th level characters already have a lot of options to aid in invasion scenarios like this one. Therefore, the only sane way to present the information on the intruders is to detail them where they start out.
If the PCs make a big scene and take their time, the other villians in the manor should ABSOLUTELY react as appropriate. Keep in mind that they're not that smart, though, and there's a certain amount of dispute among the bullywugs, so they won't mount a super-coordinated all-out defense of the manor, but having the villians react dynamically to your PCs actions is expected, to be honest.
I'm going to have to comment on this one James (Red Rex). From what I have read of the two first adventures in STAP, these adventures are tough for novice DMs. The set up in the Vanderboren Manor in "The Bullywug Gambit" is a difficult one for novice DMs. I would say many of the encounters in "There is No Honor" if not run right could lead to an easy TPK. I have to give credit to you Mr. Jacobs for really spelling out the set up for both the Blue Nixie encounter and the Parrot Island encounter. If DMs follow your advice the PCs should have more than a fair chance.
Well enough with the Snarky thread jacking.
As far as villians being easy. My party took the Nixie over in about 4 rounds, killing only one thug and letting Solar and all but one of his henchmen go (that guy was knocked silly by a body checking 1/2 orc). After a few minutes to decide what to do they entered the hold with the rhogehdhessa and demolished it off with a one mighty critical hit. So it may have been easy, but now I have PCs with huge egos to deflate (oh what fun). I thought it was a great way to start this STAP.
More Bullywug Spoilers
When the party came back, they went around back- first to the kennel door, and then to the ballroom door. I put Huntrees LorbLorb in the ballroom, and they delighted that she waved them past. They went directly to Lavinia's bedroom through a retreating defense of the stairway and fought Bua and Drevoraz, which probably saved them. They got pounded by that encounter and they only managed to keep Drevoraz from escaping by some sweet rolls letting the wizard stop Drevoraz's Overrun attempt to get past him.
They regrouped, the danger past, and searched the rest of the house. They found the chieftan in the basement and thanks to a web spell the chieftan never even got to pull his greatclub. The party really felt good after this whole adventure. The pace was set for them to be virtually exhausted by the time they got there.
But bringing it back on topic- Drevoraz and Bua lasted a good 5 and 10 rounds respectively at the end of what was a 20 or so round retreating combat for the bullywugs, which was my version of making them dynamic. Remember two things, though: neither the huntress or chieftan really want to be there, so they end up being pretty static; and while the whole thing is an ambush for Vanthus, Drevoraz thinks that Vanthus will try and save his sister, so they are comfortable in the knowledge that waiting in her bedroom will bring Vanthus to them. I think it even says that Drevoraz wants Vanthus to see him kill Lavinia. So all in all, I think the adventure is more true to the motives of the antagonists than they're being given credit for, and making them more dynamic (in this example, anyway) runs the risk of the players scratching their heads after their characters bite the big one.
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Something I use as a house rule for combat is that if one specific attack would take a being's HP total from a positive value down to less than -1, then their new total is -1. This only applies to straight-up HP damage (weapon hits, fireball, magic missile, etc...), and the NPCs get it as well. For example, though, if three magic missiles hit one target and the first one takes the target to -1, then the other two would crank the target's total on down towards -10 and death (or if one attacker gets multiple attacks...).
I still keep the Death By Massive Damage rule, and if the damage would normally have killed the being out-right they cannot stabilize without outside intervention. This decreases the chance of a PC or major NPC getting killed by One Lucky/Unlucky Roll. On the other hand, PCs and NPCs can still coupe de grace or simply take a single thwack at a downed foe, surviving opponents left for dead can come back with vengeance in mind, and opponents spared from death can make for interesting gaming (mercy + Charm *whatever* are very convincing). ...and for PCs or NPCs that really don't deserve to live, well, a 10% chance to stabilize can be pretty slim...
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I have essentially 3 types of BBEGs that have differing life expectancies:
1- The Brute: Big, bad, scary, and usually dead in under 5 rounds. Rarely has an escape option, essentially 100% offensive focus.
2- The cackling mustache twirler: may be any class, loves to gloat, often quite capable. Major weakness is underestimating the players. Fights may go as long as 10 rounds, buy are often shorter. These are the end guys I intend to have killed. Mostly middle management.
3- PC equivalents: These are the truly dangerous villains. They will often take the tack that the best defense is a strong offense. Teleport in to assault the party (who has been monitored via scrying magics) when they are distracted or weakened. Once it becomes clear that the PCs are a serious threat, these villains will NOT allow the party to rest during an assault. If my party is foolish enough to try and retreat to sleep and heal after only minor damage to the enemies infrastructure, the enemy will track them via spell, beast, ranger, etc... and counter attack a few hours after they camp. No sleep = no new spells. Since the BBEG often has lots of minions and is still fresh, this can be a lethal situation.
My true BBEGs are mostly category 3 and will often survie long enough in a campaign to make their eventual death a huge accomplishment. Because of the tactics I use, detect scrying is a must for each party. They hate the phrase 'the hairs on your neck are standing up. You feel as if you are being watched'.
Oddly enough I've found myself - in my current campaign - acting a little more like Zherog was describing. In other words the current batch of villains keep escaping
In my current campaign the UPE is this powerful matriarch Sorceress with a baby fixation. She has this large brood of children but they are all half-dragons, half-fiends, half something or other. Any way her children feature in a lot of her plans so the PCs keep running into stuff like a young jock 8th level Fighter/Half-Dragon or a 16 year old valley girl 10th level Wilder/Half Fiend.
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The children's last actions before they get dropped will be to grab a pendant or other piece of jewelry which kicks in the refuge spell their UPE mother has cast on her children.
DM: OK that last hit on the half fiend was really good, she takes a 5' step back grabs a pendant around her neck and says...
{in my best little girl voice} "Mommy - take me home"
"Reality shifts out of focus for a half second that seems like it might actually be hours and when it snaps back the half fiend is just gone".
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This is driving my players crazy but its also providing good tension in this campaign.
Good quote from one of my players after beating the latest nefarious plans of the UPE and stealing some really sappy letters the 16 year old valley girl Half Fiend was writing.
"Who the f$@& are these people? I feel like I'm at war with a deviant high school."
In my last two campaigns, it's a mixed bag. In the last campaign I had one of the big 4 villains escape in a better position than where she started (becoming Oinoloth), one remained where he was with no big change (only to be overthrown later), one of them died (maybe, kinda, sorta, no not really...), and one of them "died" by faking their own death and managed to continue on into the next campaign as a major PC foil (at campaign's end, one of the PCs actually tried a wish to bring them back to life, unbeknownst to the others, and discovered what was going on when the wish failed).
In my current game I fully expect one of the two major BBEGs to die, and likely the other as well.
The more developed a BBEG, the less I want to get rid of them totally.
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I agree. I'm not so bummed when my players manage to defeat a villian, but it does bug me when a dungeon is set up so that the final boss is in the final room waiting for the adventurers to show. I think the problem is that a dynamic villian is a lot harder to plan, a lot harder to run, and a lot harder to pack into a module.
I've often found it useful to have a variety of 'trigger' events that alert my BBEG to my party. If you have several prepared responses, your work load can be cut down to have your villain act dynamically.
When I run a prewritten adventure I'll examine my BBEG's options and plan 3 or so different assault events and use them when the party provides me with an opening. Most adventures provide you with at least one of two areas where you think "man this room/place would be perfect for a real fight instead of these 3 bullwug guards". Well, I'm sure those Bullwugs would appreciate some nice backup from their Blackguard boss. :)
The problem is that the bad guys are woefully out gunned as their wealth by level guidelines are far inferior to the PCs. This means that even when the players finally come to grips with the Evil Grey Knight that has been their adversary for two adventures and has a number of levels on them he is actually far poorer than any of the players is even as individuals - not to mention the parties combined wealth. Allowing the NPCs to go for some potent one use items allows them to even the playing field a little without the danger of your players getting their hands on some item that will throw the whole campaign out of whack.
This does assume the party itself meets the wealth by level guidelines. I've been running the SCAP, and there was tons of treasure in Jzadirune and the Goblin caves the party never got their hands on, simply because they're very plot/character oriented players. As soon as they saved the oppressed and slew the BBEG, they didn't feel any need to poke around dank dungeons looking for fights and loot that might not be there and didn't relate to the plot. They wanted to go back to the tavern and celebrate by getting drunk and hitting on the NPCs.
--- But that's neither here nor there, and probably fodder for a wealth-by level thread.
I find that one interesting way to make for villains that last is to put the players in situations where killing in general is just not what's done. Currently, I've got a re-accuring thug character I created who's got a bone to pick with the party. I created him mostly for the party's benefit, to give them weird random fights here and there with grudge-bearing Alleybashers. The thing of it is, he attacks them in their home city, and killing people in the city isn't exactly smiled upon. If it's in self defense, it's possible to get away with it, but still... it's messy. So they knock him out, and hand him over to the jail when he attacks, because they have a good rep in town and want to keep it that way.
Another good idea is the rival angle. In the SCAP, the rival adventure group, the Stormblades can be used to good effect to give the party an enemy they can fight, duel, or work at odds with, but can't kill... partly because the Stormblades are members of wealthy noble families who could make the PC's lives hell... partly because the Stormblades aren't really doing evil. A rival can be as memorable as a hardcore villain this way, and just as troublesome in adventures where two groups want to claim the same thing but aren't really on opposite moral sides.
And that above example reminds me of another angle to play, the villain the PCs shouldn't kill... because it would be bad. If an evil duke has stolen the Widget of Clan MacGuffin, but it would cause a big nasty blood fued if he ended up dead, the PCs will have to find a way to bring him down and take him in alive. Another example might be the villainous criminal mastermind or corrupt lord who always smells like roses, or has influential associates who can gloss things over. The PCs might have to confront her, and even fight her hand to hand, but unless they have a way to make their case a damn good one, they could stand to get in serious trouble if they kill her. I think Rowyn from STAP could be made into this kind of villain with a bit of work building up the influence of her estate.
Hope this helps. Sometimes the best way to keep a bad guy alive is to give PCs an IC reason not to kill them.
But maybe I'm lucky, that my players don't mind being merciful when the plot/IC reason presents (not that they're stupid about it.) It makes them feel like the good guys.
Edit: Spelling mistake
My experience is consistent with Jeremy's and Sebastian's; villains get knocked off quickly when they finally fight the PCs. I even had a contingency teleport on one villain; he escaped the fight, only to fail his save 1 minute later against the poison on the PC's dagger and die anyway.
I postpone BBEG death by a mixture of 3 strategems:
(1) Head bad guy works behind the scenes; the PCs may never actually find him or her during the course of an adventure (villain hears fighting outside his room; he looks through the peephole and sees the PCs; he immediately grabs his stuff and leaves).
(2) PCs don't know who the BBEG actually is throughout most of the adventure, or they have a suspect but no proof, or he is a noble and somewhat above the law, or some combination thereof--in other words, attacking him will bring all manner of legal retribution, murder charges, etc.
(3) BBEG is presented as someone who is doubtless way too powerful for the PCs to attack, but whom they might be able to bargain with for the time being, until they become powerful enough to take him/her on (e.g., Iggwilv in STAP).
hmm, the BBEG.
Usually I have no problems keeping them alive (and kicking hard) for more than 5 rounds.... Often enough I have problems not wiping out the party with some of the ready-made guys, simply because I know the PCs in and out (which the BBEG would not)....
looking at the SCAP BBEGs none died quickly, and I usually has at least one PC-Kill/KOd in each fight. The only BBEG who went down too fast lately was "V" in STAP's Tides of Dread
Three main reasons to this.
1) Ablative defense - BBEG use (if intelligent) their minions, often pro-actively to weaken the party, even if by suicidical tactics (usually the BBEg can promise them a far more hideous fate than the PCs' assorted weaponry...). Plus, at times, he doesn't advertise he is the BBEG, doing a quick hit and run to harass the group then fading away.
2) Mobility - BBEG try not to get caught in tight corners and cul-de-sacs. they also try to stay in motion, avoiding full-attacks (even at the cost of risking an AoO at times) and love doing ranged attacks (just like the group would ). If they feel the combat going against them, they will opt to eliminate more mobile opoonents, and only than run... no sense in running if you get overtaken or hauled in... My group has also learned that pursuing a BBEG on the the run may have consequences ( say if only one or two guys follow him... and suddenly face the villain all on their own ), which makes them by now queasy to do so.
3) Initiative - the BBEG usually do not wait for the PCs to start combat, handing tghem the advantage of where and when to fight. They pick the place ( if they can or the circumstances allow ) and usually try to make the PCs react to their actions, not vice versa.
Yes, they try do deliver the usual villain monologue, they just don't sacrifice the tactical advantage for it.... one can always monologue to the last "hero" squirming beneath your heel (if any ) once you finished mopping them up, right ?