Is slavery legal in Sasserine? I know this is a rather mature topic but I know my players will ask.
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That's rather odd. The Sea Princes were widely known, and denounced, for keeping slaves. With all those tropical plantations, along with its location, Sasserine should be both a major consumer of slaves, as well as a major export base for slavers.
Of course, that will just lead me to start wondering why the Scarlet Brotherhood conquered the Sea Princes but left Sasserine free. And since the Scarlet Brotherhood is a major user of slaves, they would find the Sasserine quite useful to base slaving runs into the northeast Amedio.
Creative Director
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The main reason there's not slavery in Sasserine is, of course, the fact that it's kind of tasteless to have slaves and plantations. I wasn't interested in that type of scene for who are supposed to be the good guys; if Sasserine were an evil city, sure. But not in a city that's supposed to be run by the good guys.
During the Sea Prince rule, there were certainly slaves. But Sasserine's not under their rule anymore, so therefore: Slaves = illegal.
As for why the Scarlet Brotherhood didn't conquer Sasserine... they overextended themselves. They had a lot of thumbs in a lot of pies, and realized this after the wars. Much better to play a more insidious role and try to guide things from within via stealth and secrecy than to dominate dozens of empires and nations.
As for why the Scarlet Brotherhood didn't conquer Sasserine... they overextended themselves. They had a lot of thumbs in a lot of pies, and realized this after the wars. Much better to play a more insidious role and try to guide things from within via stealth and secrecy than to dominate dozens of empires and nations.
Also - it is better to make people think they want to do you bidding than to force them. . .
That's rather odd. The Sea Princes were widely known, and denounced, for keeping slaves. With all those tropical plantations, along with its location, Sasserine should be both a major consumer of slaves, as well as a major export base for slavers.
That might be precise reason for aborting slave-keeping: If you get rid of hated overlords, you can easily make a point by abolishing those of their laws that are a symbol of suppression - this will raise your popularity as a politician.
And, to my understanding, slavery is always depicted as evil in the context of D&D, so if Sasserine is meant to be "good", they can´t be slaveholders.Of course, illegal slave-dealing might take place.
Stefan
The Knowlerns, being elves, are unlikely to support slavery. City slickers in general are less likely to support slavery.
Sunrise is where most plantation owners have contact with Sasserine. Plantation owners are the most likely to support slavery.
The southern plantations _may be_ the hot bed of sympathy for the policies of the Scarlet Brotherhood.
An interesting dynamic might be the conflict between Landowner's Hall and the Knowlern family.
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The main reason there's not slavery in Sasserine is, of course, the fact that it's kind of tasteless to have slaves and plantations. I wasn't interested in that type of scene for who are supposed to be the good guys; if Sasserine were an evil city, sure. But not in a city that's supposed to be run by the good guys.
Which is nice, but would pretty much shut down ever setting a major advnenture in a place like Rel Astra.
During the Sea Prince rule, there were certainly slaves. But Sasserine's not under their rule anymore, so therefore: Slaves = illegal.
So they completely retooled their economy in 12 years? Where did all the ex-slaves go?
As for why the Scarlet Brotherhood didn't conquer Sasserine... they overextended themselves. They had a lot of thumbs in a lot of pies, and realized this after the wars. Much better to play a more insidious role and try to guide things from within via stealth and secrecy than to dominate dozens of empires and nations.
While I fully support the thought that the SB should never have gone a-conquering, they did. And while doing so, they managed to transport thousands of Suel from the Amedio to the Sea Princes. Sasserine would have been a perfect staging point for that. As would Fort Blackwell, which also would seal off Jeklea Bay, but for some reason they didn't take control of that either.
And of course Sasserine was founded by the Suel, with a history of taking lesser races as slaves. Why wouldn't it be part of their culture to begin with?
Further, why would they just end slavery to spite the Sea Princes who are no longer around? If there was a servile revolt, as there had been in the Sea Princes after several years of SB rule, I could see it, although most of the slaves would still consider slavery as culturally acceptable.
So yes, because its a city of "good guys" not having slavery is reasonable. But with the location and background of Sasserine, it seems extremely peculiar not to have the peculiar insititution.
I believe I speak for all of us when I say - if you want to put slavery in Sasserine, go for it. It's your game. Yes, in the real world, a big city in Sasserine's position might well have slaves. But the fact is, there are a LOT of things that occur regularly in large cities that we're just not going to get into because a) it's something we can't get into without offending large swaths of our audience, b) it's not something we feel warrants mention, or c) it just doesn't fit with our vision of the city. I don't think it's beyond reason at all to have a slave uprising when the Sea Princes are forced out and see it totally abolished (at least in the mainstream) in the course of a view years - if I recall correctly, such things have happened before in the Caribbean.
In general, remember that just because something's not in our game, that doesn't mean it can't be in yours!
What about "Indentured Servants"?
Not slaves. Debters working off money owed? Former crimminals trying to pay for past crimes?
During the Sea Prince rule, there were certainly slaves. But Sasserine's not under their rule anymore, so therefore: Slaves = illegal.So they completely retooled their economy in 12 years? Where did all the ex-slaves go?
The ex-slaves are probably still working their asses off on the plantations - abolishing slavery does not make ex-slaves wealthy and independent. Perhaps the plantation workers are still slaves in all but name - call them wage slaves...
Could make for a nice moral conflict if officially slavery is illegal, but plantation workers are still not much better off.Stefan
BAH! I see no reason to not have slaves. I was considering having a portion of the "trade goods" on the blue nixie be slaves.
Slavery wasn't evil 300 years ago- it was a fact of life.
I played the halfling maid of lavinia as a slave.
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I believe I speak for all of us when I say - if you want to put slavery in Sasserine, go for it. It's your game. Yes, in the real world, a big city in Sasserine's position might well have slaves. But the fact is, there are a LOT of things that occur regularly in large cities that we're just not going to get into because a) it's something we can't get into without offending large swaths of our audience, b) it's not something we feel warrants mention, or c) it just doesn't fit with our vision of the city. I don't think it's beyond reason at all to have a slave uprising when the Sea Princes are forced out and see it totally abolished (at least in the mainstream) in the course of a view years - if I recall correctly, such things have happened before in the Caribbean.
In general, remember that just because something's not in our game, that doesn't mean it can't be in yours!
As it happens, I very much understand those issues. I've been in a somewhat similar position and banned certain subjects as suitable for adventures for the same reasons. So I know that what you might do in a home game is not always suitable for publishing, particularly for a company like Paizo. And I understand how frustrating that can be.
What I am questioning is jsut the specific design, and how it interacts with other Greyhawk material.
A Sasserine that revolted against Scarlet Brotherhood control and outlawed slavery during the general uprising still has some issues, like who they trade with when Jeklea Bay is effectively blocked off from the rest of the Flanaess, and it would require some significant retooling of the noble houses. That fits the background a lot better, at least as I see it, than a Sasserine that the SB wound up a few slave troops short of annexing along with the entire Hold of the Sea Princes (they could handle a nation of 100,000 people but not a city on their new private lake), and that outlawed slavery just to taunt the Sea Princes. Add in several other modifications to the history, and it would work even better.
Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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Slavery wasn't evil 300 years ago- it was a fact of life.
I played the halfling maid of lavinia as a slave.
Depends on your definition of "evil." If, by evil, you mean socially acceptable, then no, slavery wasn't evil. But if, by evil, you mean morally reprehensible, then yes, slavery was, is, and always will be, evil.
But, even if slavery was not evil 300 years ago, I can't see how this relates to a fantasy game that doesn't take place on earth, 300 years ago or otherwise. Child abuse and rape were also facts of life on Earth 300 years ago, and I don't mind that those aren't part of the adventure path either.
Bad taste on the other hand, is judged by modern standards (the same standards to which Paizo is held by the majority of its readers and the populace at large). Emphasizing slavery, a minor element with respect to the adventure path, would be in bad taste. It's not a central element of the campaign, it's not important to the game mechanics - at best it's a scandalous little conceit to "reality."
What about "Indentured Servants"?
Not slaves. Debters working off money owed? Former crimminals trying to pay for past crimes?
They get paid a silver a day for their work, while paying a gold a day in rent for their cage, another 2 gold for their manacles and finally 3 golds for the food they eatt daily.
Thus their debt is increasing by 5 gold 9 silver every day :D
Infact they are so badly in debt that they are now working just to free them of their debt.. while paying that same rent. lol
Simple solution - as the DM it is YOUR campaign - so re-forge the city to include what the publishers did not due to political reasons.
It's not detrimental to the reality factor to not have slavery and if your group or you NEED to have it in their to make the flavor more palatable - then just add it.
Simple solution - as the DM it is YOUR campaign - so re-forge the city to include what the publishers did not due to political reasons.
It's not detrimental to the reality factor to not have slavery and if your group or you NEED to have it in their to make the flavor more palatable - then just add it.
As far as if it is a newly liberated slave issue - just take the model from the American post civil war model
I consider sociably acceptable to equate good- or in the case of slavery and a few other things- nuetral. .
I do include child abuse and rape in my campaigns. also, drug abuse, mutilation and other things that make evil VERY evil. I assume they will purchase a few to sell at farshore.
I consider sociably acceptable to equate good- or in the case of slavery and a few other things- nuetral. .
I do include child abuse and rape in my campaigns. also, drug abuse, mutilation and other things that make evil VERY evil. I assume they will purchase a few to sell at farshore.
the vast majority of the slaves were probably citizens of sasserine prior to it falling under the sway of the sea princes. many of the things that are unacceptable in one culture are the norm in another. some folks consider cow to be a sacred animal and yet other consider them to be grown purely for burgers, neither view is necessarily evil or good it is just how it is seen by the particular culture.
in my own campaign (and from what i have read of the inspirations for sasserine) i will be playing the city as a liberal, forward thinking nation trying hard to distance itself from the oppressive nature of it's former masters. drugs, prostitution and other minor infringements of what might be seen as morally reprehensible behaviour are tollerated but not actively encouraged.
of course in the seedier parts of the city anything would be available... at a price.
Kendrik
What about Mandalay Film? It's a Lars von Trier Film speaking about slaves that just get free...
Nanmaniac