I think a dozen or so blessed angles might have to disagree with your players ;)
I think a dozen or so blessed angles might have to disagree with your players ;)
Agreed. Plus, the Angels are everywhere and can appear as anyone. It would be no trouble whatsoever to monitor the PCs and hear any plans they might make. I had angels teleport my PCs to the aerie when they were entertaining similiar notions. The queen of the erinyes (made up a name), told them to the letter exactly what the angels had heard and that any future acts of unlawfulness would be met with full force. Being stared down by a dozen of the fiends changed their minds quickly... (Plus, I "leaked" the fact that the angels had levels..)
If there's 6 PCs, you could always increase the number of blessed angels. Also, don't forget the three CR18 blessed angels in Dawn of New Age. Add to that Zeech himself (CR 16) and any allies he might have (Lashonna perhaps?), and your players will quickly find themselves in over their heads.
I don't think the point is to stop the PC's from their plan at any cost. On the contrary, I think we need to stop first and ask "Does it matter if they kill Zeech?"
Zeech's really only has two roles from the time that is being described in the original message. A) To run the events at the Prince of Redhand and B) To finish the Ziggurat.
If the PCs are attempting to go to the party to finish the evil deed than you are still inline for A. B can be covered by other NPCs who remain as they can finish the Ziggurat in Zeech's honor. "It was his last dream. A testiment to this great monarch." If Lashona is still alive it is her, of course, who is pulling the strings to make sure this happens.
So, I would probably throw curve balls at 'em until you have time to finish up all or most of Prince of Redhand and then, assuming they have a good, reasonable plan, let them do what they want. It won't derail the campaign and you can just make sure that things proceed reasonably from there.
Additionally, is there a reason that one of the local priests wouldn't bring him back? We are dealing some pretty high level stuff here.
In any case, the point of Prince of Redhand is Roleplaying over Combat. If they assassinate the prince I would rule they loose the chance to rule Redhand later. Someone else has just stepped into that role and is loathe to give it up at that point.
Sean Mahoney
If the party kills Zeech, there is a nifty way to show them the error of their actions. Here comes to the spoilers... Kyuss is destoryed a wave of negative energy and darkness flows in the wake, and the PCs are covered in darkness, when it clears, you just read the scene instead of interacting it, the pcs watch themselves duel Zeech and win the Kingdom, and Zeech passing onto a good place instead of a bad place, with a scene where the pcs are older and their rule is still peaceful. Then when they awaken, and they find that Redhand has been run by so-so evil uber baddie since the death of Zeech, and the heroes can not rest... the end.
Another way to go about it might be to cast Zeech in a favorable light. This is kind of hard to pull off, especially without giving too much away. Once my PC's realized Zeech was protected by the Angels and that his dreams about the ziggaraut were coming from somewhere, they determined someone was controlling Zeech. They almost uncovered Lashonna, but instead went after Mahuudril, forcing her to leave the ball. I'd say go with the delaying tactics and try and make them role through the ball. There's plenty of chances to show Zeech's remorse and self-loathing if played out properly, which might make them not so hasty to kill him. Mother Maggot makes a great scapegoat, especially once the shapechanger paranoia kicks in after their struggles in HoHR.
BTW, I think the Blessed Angles are deadly. There's really not much a party can do against flying, teleporting at will killers. A party can't have spells ready all the time, and through sheer atrition, the angels will usually win against all but the craftiest PCs. All the angels have to really do is teleport in, concentrate shots on a single PC, teleport back, and so forth. Yeah, the PCs might get a single attack or spell off, but for the most part, they'll never know exactly how many they're facing, which ones they've injured, or even when they'll fight them. The angels proabably shouldn't go toe to toe against the fighter types, but simple harrying tactics (yeah, it's cheap, but it works if necessary), the angels will cut short any plans. Besides this, it would be easy for one to just fly Zeech out the window, away to safety. Keep in mind also that they are highly intelligent, and nothing is to stop them from procurring items to use against the PC, such as Bane weapons, slaying arrows, poison, and other tailor-made kill-tools.
It would sadden me greatly if I party let them get away with that trick more than once or twice before that spell that got off was a dimensional lock...
Sean Mahoney
It would sadden me greatly if I party let them get away with that trick more than once or twice before that spell that got off was a dimensional lock...
Sean Mahoney
Even still, dimensional lock isn't a very bid radius of effect, and doesn't do much if something can just fly out of it.;)
My players just tried it; the rogue made an amazing Bluff, that not even the invisible Blessed Angels could see through, and Quick Draw - Sneak Attacked Zeech, wounding him badly. I had Zeech take a move action to disengage (taking the attack of opportunity this provoked) and the Angels moved into position to block. By the time the PCs cut through 4 Blessed Angels, Zeech was on his brand new fiendish horse and fleeing into the city. When the PCs gave chase, I had them intercepted by the rest of the Blessed Angels (8 of 'em) and, after a fight, they were incapacitated and taken to the Aerie... whereupon we ended the session. Can't wait to decide what to do with them now!
My player is probably going to do this.
I believe he will have killed most or all of the Blessed Angels in advance. I don't know his plans, but I suspect he will first pick off as many as possible singly, and then go after the main concentration by attacking something which they'll feel obliged to defend, such as the Angel's Aerie or the Palace. Dimensional Anchor on single Angels will prevent retreat; furthermore, the PCs are pretty good at dropping things in a round.
I'm really surprised that people expect invisibility and flight to trouble 15th-16th level PCs. Mine wouldn't go into combat without at least one True Seeing, and all members flying (using wands). They can have trouble with massed Dispel but erinys don't do that.
They could get into bad trouble if they let the Blessed Angels pick the time and place, but that is not an argument for leaving the Angels alone, it's an argument for an immediate well-prepared attack.
With the Angels gone, Zeech has nothing to protect him that will even slow down 15th level PCs, unless Lashonna or Mahuudril choose to intervene. They'll have had plenty of warning, though (taking out all 16 Angels will not exactly be inconspicuous) so we may see a lot of material from the later modules right here and now in Alhaster.
I'll report back when I see what happens.
I don't think the PCs should be punished for trying this; it's a reasonable response to the clear evidence that Zeech is doing Kyuss' work by building the ziggurut. In particular, if the PCs contain a priest or paladin of Heironeous, it's hard to see how they could justify *not* doing this if they feel capable of it.
Mary
On the other hand, the adventure clearly establishes (via the testimony of Manzorian and Celeste) that the PCs should not be confrontational with Zeech at this time. If the PCs are arrogant enough to ignore this advice, there should be consequences.
By all means, allow the PCs to do what they can in Alhaster. But Lashonna is a sometimes-present member of society, with plenty of her time unaccounted for. It seems quite reasonable to assume this isn't the only place where she's preparing for the final days of the current Age. Or, she may have some other way of building the ziggurat-plus-spire (for the final chapter) very quickly. When you get to the final chapter, instead of going to Alhaster, the PCs simply have to go somewhere else where the spire has been constructed in a great hurry. Maybe the Free City, if it wasn't overrun by wights after the Champion's Games. More likely somewhere else. And because the PCs haven't ever been to that somewhere-else before, they won't have the local recognition to make Authority Checks as they'd have been able to do in Alhaster.
NOT punishment. But reasonable consequences of the decisions they've made.
The player did Commune: "Where is Lashonna's backup ziggurut?" So they won't be surprised to find out that she has another one. (I put it in the Wormcrawl Fissure, to reduce the amount of extra prep I had to do.)
That was a pretty funny Commune. I had posted earlier that I thought Redhand would stop following its script as soon as the PCs asked "On whose instigation did Zeech build the ziggurut?" and when the player said, "Okay, here's the first Commune question--on whose instigation did...?" I was laughing out loud.
Mary
When the PCs gave chase, I had them intercepted by the rest of the Blessed Angels (8 of 'em) and, after a fight, they were incapacitated and taken to the Aerie... whereupon we ended the session. Can't wait to decide what to do with them now!
I'm open for suggestions, by the way... we can make it a contest!
Back to earlier posts:
Whoever thinks they can assasinate a dictator to make everything "fine and dandy" again hasn't been keeping up with current real world events.
Heh. The ironic thing is that, in our homebrew campaign, those same PCs are the ones who helped Zeech come into power. For Alhaster I substituted a campaign city that had previously been under the control of rival crime gangs; the Redhand PCs had a part in "cleaning it up" and putting a strong leader in charge... reading over Redhand, the thought that it should be that city, and that the leader should be Zeech, was just too good to pass up. So, instead of "20 years of rule," it was his "six months of law and order" celebration.
(For those wondering how these characters had time to play "Gangbusters" during the Age of Worms, they didn't; these are replacement PCs for the ones that got wiped out in the Spire of Long Shadows.)
Back to earlier posts:
Whoever thinks they can assasinate a dictator to make everything "fine and dandy" again hasn't been keeping up with current real world events.
"Violence never settles anything" is going to be a pretty dysfunctional theme for a D&D game, though, isn't it? The whole point of the AoW is to settle a major problem by the use of extreme amounts of violence. Different players just adopt different strategies to do it.
A player might well judge that it's worth killing Zeech even if Alhaster collapses into chaos, because the Age of Worms is worse than mere civil disorder, and Zeech is pretty clearly working toward its coming. (This would be giving Zeech more importance than he actually has, but it's an understandable reaction.)
Mary
When the PCs gave chase, I had them intercepted by the rest of the Blessed Angels (8 of 'em) and, after a fight, they were incapacitated and taken to the Aerie... whereupon we ended the session. Can't wait to decide what to do with them now!I'm open for suggestions, by the way... we can make it a contest!
Hmmm, that's a pretty sweet outcome.
I would definitely have Lashonna save the group somehow (either teleporting them directly out of the Aerie or from their execution in the market to a safehouse somewhere outside of Alhaster). You could have any dissidents they managed to make helpful at the party (such as Kilraven or Captain Vulras) assist in the escape. Lashonna then proceeds to tell them of the Library of Last Resort. As the PCs are off on that quest, she proceeds to publicly blame their escape on Ebon Triad cultists, fingering the PCs as heretics themselves.
I would definitely have Lashonna save the group somehow (either teleporting them directly out of the Aerie or from their execution in the market to a safehouse somewhere outside of Alhaster). You could have any dissidents they managed to make helpful at the party (such as Kilraven or Captain Vulras) assist in the escape. Lashonna then proceeds to tell them of the Library of Last Resort. As the PCs are off on that quest, she proceeds to publicly blame their escape on Ebon Triad cultists, fingering the PCs as heretics themselves.
I like it... but I might raise the ante a bit. A 4th PC (who was not let in on the assassination attempt by the others) is meeting with Lashonna while the others languish in the aerie; I'll probably have Lashonna tip this last PC off as to their fate, and maneuver her into rescuing them, maybe with some help. (Lashonna's reasoning being that if the PCs can't get themselves out of this fix, they'll have no chance at all against Dragotha, and Lashonna will have tipped her hand unnecessarily and possibly fatally).
I would definitely have Lashonna save the group somehow (either teleporting them directly out of the Aerie or from their execution in the market to a safehouse somewhere outside of Alhaster). You could have any dissidents they managed to make helpful at the party (such as Kilraven or Captain Vulras) assist in the escape. Lashonna then proceeds to tell them of the Library of Last Resort. As the PCs are off on that quest, she proceeds to publicly blame their escape on Ebon Triad cultists, fingering the PCs as heretics themselves.I like it... but I might raise the ante a bit. A 4th PC (who was not let in on the assassination attempt by the others) is meeting with Lashonna while the others languish in the aerie; I'll probably have Lashonna tip this last PC off as to their fate, and maneuver her into rescuing them, maybe with some help. (Lashonna's reasoning being that if the PCs can't get themselves out of this fix, they'll have no chance at all against Dragotha, and Lashonna will have tipped her hand unnecessarily and possibly fatally).
Oh, that's perfect. It lets you subtley cast Lashonna in a positive light without using any obvious deus ex machina. I have to admit I'm a tad envious; I just finished up the Prince of Redhand, and the PCs played through the party without incident.
I have to admit I'm a tad envious; I just finished up the Prince of Redhand, and the PCs played through the party without incident.
I've got 2 major advantages: (1) at least one player who isn't afraid to ignore reasonable boundaries and who likes the "open-endedness" of RPGs; and (2) intertwining AoW with an ongoing canmpaign, so PCs can be swapped out and places, NPCs, etc. can be incorporated into the already-existing framework.
Unfortunately, the player for the 4th PC (the one who wasn't told about the plan to hit Zeech, and would never have thought of it or gone along with it in any event) would vastly prefer a "choose-your-own-adventure" format to an actual RPG, and I'm not sure how blatantly I'll have to railroad her before she takes the bait. Most of my experience as a DM is with players who derail the adventure as soon as they hit the first page, and frankly they can be a lot more fun to play with. Any suggestions?
Considering how great an adventure Prince of Redhand is I think its worth considering how to get the adventure to go a little more smoothly. For one thing its the one real break from an endless series of combat fests and it should prove a welcome respite instead of turning into yet another blood bath.
The players need something from this adventure - specifically they need info from Lashona. OK so getting that is their primary goal here. I think one of the reasons this whole thing goes off the rails is because Alaster is something of a surprise to the players who just show up and are suddenly faced with the fact that the place is a friggen den of evil with an obvious Ziggurat being built. This whole situation is pretty much an invitation for the players to do what they have been doing the whole campaign. Find Worm God followers and kill them.
I think one way of helping to circumvent this is to make Alasters situation much less of a surprise for the PCs. Let them know that the forces of good know perfectly well that this place is a friggen den of evil. The players mission is to infiltrate the den of evil and get some critical information and then follow up on it. A direct attack on Alaster will tip the forces of goods hand, possibly ruining everything.
Don't make it a case of trying to intimidate the players - that might work but in reality your just throwing down the gauntlet and presenting them with yet another challenge to overcome.
Better to set the scene so that the current situation in Alahster is working toward Goods advantage. Zeech is a puppet - but of who? Their is some kind of a rift in Evils forces but who are the players? Can this be exploited? Good needs the status quo to remain in Alahster for the moment so that their spy's (like the Ominous Fabler) can continue to gain information. The players are to infiltrate Alaster and move around the edges without disrupting the whole situation and destroying the set up before Good knows what needs to be done to stop the threat.
Essentially have the players in on some of the planning with Tenser et al. of what to do with the cancer that is Alaster. Have the idea of just cleansing the place be an option on the table and then have it rejected and an infiltration type mission chosen as the better option for the moment. Make it clear to the players that the plan is that Alaster will be cleansed by Good and Zeech will get what is coming to him - but not just yet. For the moment he is an unwitting accomplice of good with an infiltrated court leaking Evils secrets. If its destroyed know Good might win the battle but jeopardizes the whole war. Try and make the players party to the forces of Good beyond just the foot soldiers of this war in the shadows at least for the last meeting with Tenser before they head for Alaster. That gives the DM more ability to make sure that the players are in an infiltration and diplomacy frame of mind before they set foot in Alaster itself. I'd try and let the players be in on the planning making suggestions with the idea of hopefully getting them to think they invented the infiltration mission themselves or at least contributed to its creation.
Better to set the scene so that the current situation in Alahster is working toward Goods advantage. Zeech is a puppet - but of who? Their is some kind of a rift in Evils forces but who are the players? Can this be exploited?
That's not a bad approach at all, and seems like one of the best setups mentioned for running the AP as written. I've had to take a few liberties to twine the path into our ongoing campaign, though... however, we still got the feast, and Zeech remains in power, so your outcome and mine aren't all that far off.
I think one way of helping to circumvent this is to make Alasters situation much less of a surprise for the PCs. Let them know that the forces of good know perfectly well that this place is a friggen den of evil. The players mission is to infiltrate the den of evil and get some critical information and then follow up on it. A direct attack on Alaster will tip the forces of goods hand, possibly ruining everything.
I like this idea but I think it will be tricky to make work. Manzorian's plan is, after all, going to be a near disaster. Lashonna is a major reason why: because she is still alive, the PCs don't get the obelisk when they hit Dragotha, and because the ziggurut is still standing in Alhaster, this is nearly the end of the world. If you look objectively at the AP it seems as though killing Lashonna and destroying the ziggurut in PoR would have been strategically better.
Also, my player argues that after Longshadow and Champion's Games their hand is already tipped bigtime. The bad guys must be aware of them, and the invitation from Zeech confirms this. The PCs' solution to Champion's Games was *incredibly* showy and public. If Alhaster needs someone who is not known to the enemy, they are the wrong people to be here and should leave. (At which point, they will go after Darl two levels too early, which I'm not looking forward to.)
My player's issue is not that Alhaster is a den of evil. That wasn't a big surprise. His issue is that he has the major architects of Kyuss' return here in easy reach, so why not deal with them now? The whole "The PCs don't know what's really at stake here" collapsed on the first use of Commune. "Who induced Zeech to build the ziggurut?" Once the PCs know who Lashonna is, it would be a bit odd if they were happy to go off and do what she says, leaving her behind.
It is, in general, not clear why people with Commune and Contact Other Planes need to send spies. I think I may have to restrict or eliminate Commune for subsequent high-level campaigns, as it's just too powerful. (I know the PH says that the GM can refuse to answer Commune questions which spoil the plot, but if that's nearly every question the PCs ask, something bad is happening.)
Mary
I already described my players - kick in the door, don't mind being told what to do or be lead by the nose. I have a few players who don't mind thinking at the table occasionaly, but typicaly this isn't the case. Spells like Commune, Talk with Dead, and virtually every divination spell outside of Identify and Detect Magic never get used.
If my players started using Commune (to detrimental effect), I would probably nerf it after the first few uses. I'd tell them why (spoiling story plots and ruining the next three 8-dollar magazines) and they would most likely be cool with it.
It should also be noted that the players know I am running a Dungeon adventure and play the game accordingly. That is, they wouldn't actively attempt to solve the problem even when a solution might present itself if the adventure path suggests that the characters do something else (i.e. lets just go to the party). This tendancy caused them to skip all of the side quests PoR offered.
In a home-brewed campaign, they (we) approach the game as problem solving players differently.
It should also be noted that the players know I am running a Dungeon adventure and play the game accordingly. That is, they wouldn't actively attempt to solve the problem even when a solution might present itself if the adventure path suggests that the characters do something else (i.e. lets just go to the party). This tendancy caused them to skip all of the side quests PoR offered.
Any willingness my player had to do that was lost sometime around HoHR--actually, probably sometime around Zenith Trajectory in SCAP, which he GMed for me. He no longer trusts that the game-as-written will be fun or even reasonably possible. He believes that the problem may not *be* solvable by his PCs doing what the module says, so he'll make the best plan he can.
I can ask him, out of game, to stay away from a particular continuation. But he would see asking him not to use Commune/Divination as asking him to let his PCs die.
In HoHR I forced them up against something they *could not beat*. (We played it out a couple of times and I'm pretty sure of this.) I can never again--not in this campaign anyway--just say "Trust me, it will be all right." That trust is already squandered. The same thing happened, with GM/player roles reversed, in SCAP.
Mary
I like this idea but I think it will be tricky to make work. Manzorian's plan is, after all, going to be a near disaster. Lashonna is a major reason why: because she is still alive, the PCs don't get the obelisk when they hit Dragotha, and because the ziggurut is still standing in Alhaster, this is nearly the end of the world. If you look objectively at the AP it seems as though killing Lashonna and destroying the ziggurut in PoR would have been strategically better.Also, my player argues that after Longshadow and Champion's Games their hand is already tipped bigtime. The bad guys must be aware of them, and the invitation from Zeech confirms this. The PCs' solution to Champion's Games was *incredibly* showy and public. If Alhaster needs someone who is not known to the enemy, they are the wrong people to be here and should leave. (At which point, they will go after Darl two levels too early, which I'm not looking forward to.)
My player's issue is not that Alhaster is a den of evil. That wasn't a big surprise. His issue is that he has the major architects of Kyuss' return here in easy reach, so why not deal with them now? The whole "The PCs don't know what's really at stake here" collapsed on the first use of Commune. "Who induced Zeech to build the ziggurut?" Once the PCs know who Lashonna is, it would be a bit odd if they were happy to go off and do what she says, leaving her behind.
It is, in general, not clear why people with Commune and Contact Other Planes need to send spies. I think I may have to restrict or eliminate Commune...
I was thinking of this more along the lines of the situation that prevails in James Bond films. You know where Bond always answers with his name as "Bond...James Bond". Of course the bad guys know who he is and he knows that they know. Similar situation. Sure the PCs are known to the forces of evil. No ones pretending otherwise. However its in part that they are known that is what is letting them move about in Alaster. The forces of evil don't want a confrontation with them just yet - the key is that the forces of good also don't want to bring this into open battle just yet, either.
Lashonna is working against Dragotha. As DMs we sort of know that she's in many ways more dangerous then Dragotha but this is only because Dragotha has a weakness and the players will be able to exploit that. CR wise she is way weaker then Dragotha and he is the major mover and shaker of Kyuss' Cult. Since Lashonna is operating against Dragotha that presents a very real crack in the forces of evil that the players in some since exploit during the adventure.
Consider the alternate situation Lashonna accepts her position as 3rd in Kyuss' hierarchy. She works closely with Dragotha to accomplish the goals of Kyuss. As a team these two would be nearly unstoppable. One of the aces up Goods sleeve is that Evil feeds upon itself and Lashonna is not content with being second to Dragotha - she wants to be first and is willing to help Good destroy Dragotha to fulfil her selfish aims.
Zeech is a puppet and Evil is already making a move to get what they want from the Library of Last Reort. Dragotha's phylactery is going to become known, its just a matter of whether Lashonna is going to help the players to get it and engineer Dragotha's demise or if she is going to have her little scheme ruined and be forced to accept her subordinate position in which case she ends up supporting Dragotha. If she were to die in Alaster then it would serve Good but if she escapes (and she should have little trouble doing that) but is rebuffed in her move against Dragotha then Evil does win this round. Imagine a scenario were Dragotha moves against the Giants in Kings of the Rift - but know Lashona leads the assault and when the players move to confront Dragotha Lashona is by his side.
Its possible to frame this in a situation where the players following Lashona's lead in the destruction of Dragotha is just the edge Good needs to beat Evil. One way of exploiting this is to insure that Tenser knows (and passes on to the PCs) that there are cracks in evils side and that the players should be looking for an opportunity to exploit this. Again the 'plan' is don't act rashly until more of the pieces are in place.
I like this idea but I think it will be tricky to make work. Manzorian's plan is, after all, going to be a near disaster. Lashonna is a major reason why: because she is still alive, the PCs don't get the obelisk when they hit Dragotha, and because the ziggurut is still standing in Alhaster, this is nearly the end of the world. If you look objectively at the AP it seems as though killing Lashonna and destroying the ziggurut in PoR would have been strategically better.
Keep in mind that, at the level the players are supposed to be at for PoR, even if they are badasses, killing Lashonna (especially as she should be accompanied at all times by her three personal Blessed Angel guards) should be pretty much impossible. Look at the stat block for Lashonna and her personal guards. If you think your player has even a remote chance of killing her, they are too powerful at this point. Lashonna's AC and Dominate save DC are through the roof. My players were too powerful through most of the AP, and when they faced her at the end, she almost killed them.
And Lashonna's tactics are more open for her in PoR than they are in Dawn of a New Age, for one simple reason:
She can teleport.
This means if a fight breaks out anywhere in the city that you think Lashonna (who is technically the Uber BBEG for the AP) would not approve of, she can immediately teleport to her dungeon and retrieve her avolakia priests (waiting to become ghostpriests), and her liches, and her pet pit fiend. And maybe one or two prematurely hatched broodfiends. Or, since at this point in time she's still technically in good graces with Dragotha, she can teleport to Dragotha's lair and summon his help. Or Brazzemal's. Or any other named dragon from Kings of the Rift.
Seriously. If your player really wants to go to work on Alhaster and wage war on Lashonna, Zeech, the Blessed Angels, and everything else that should be at Lashonna's disposal at this point in the campaign? There is no conceivable way they should be able to win. If your player forces war with Zeech during PoR, you should consider this a sort of activation of every other major bad guy encounter for the rest of the AP, not including Kyuss himself. The PCs will quickly become little piles of cinders, no matter how tough they are at this level.
ETA: The thread header for this thread is marked with a spoiler warning, so I unhid my paragraph.
If your player forces war with Zeech during PoR, you should consider this a sort of activation of every other major bad guy encounter for the rest of the AP, not including Kyuss himself. The PCs will quickly become little piles of cinders, no matter how tough they are at this level.
Your in-game logic is flawless, but you seem to forget that it is a game, and it is supposed to be open-ended (or the players would be better off playing Candy Land), and, above all, enjoyable. Instant death with no hope of survival is just pointless dice rolling until everyone dies. Nobody enjoys that. It doesn't matter if our players "ruin the story"--the GM's job is to improvise another one to fit what's happened, and if we can't (or won't) do that, then--no offense--but we really have no business being a GM. That's why I like the term "referee" better than "game master," because it's a more accurate job description. I am absolutely NOT recomending that idiot players be "babied," but I am stating that it's not our place, as referees, to punish them for failing to follow the story in the magazine at all times.
Now a caveat: in my game, I'll be doing just exactly what you recommend--activating the rest of the bad guys--but only because my players have higher-level characters waiting in the wings to get involved, and they're ready for a "change in scenes" from the current crop. So it won't be automatic death, despite the maintaining of in-game logic.
Mary: sounds like your game is going to be very difficult to try and run "as written", simply because your player has decided not to do so, so whatever you do you're going to have to try your best to ad-lib using the last four modules' materials to go with whatever he cooks up.
Also, you should note that Commune only let you "...ask questions that can be answered by a simple yes or no." So it would seem you have provided him way too much info about what's really going on by answering a very open-ended question of his.
Instant death with no hope of survival is just pointless dice rolling until everyone dies. Nobody enjoys that. It doesn't matter if our players "ruin the story"--the GM's job is to improvise another one to fit what's happened, and if we can't (or won't) do that, then--no offense--but we really have no business being a GM. That's why I like the term "referee" better than "game master," because it's a more accurate job description. I am absolutely NOT recomending that idiot players be "babied," but I am stating that it's not our place, as referees, to punish them for failing to follow the story in the magazine at all times.
Okay, I know I described it as "instant death," and it quite probable that activating all these other encounters would end in a TPK, but this is a constant threat for the AoW campaign, and while I agree that DMs should neither baby their players, nor punish them for not following the storyline (which I also disagree this is), the converse of that is that players need to accept the consequences of their actions.
That being said, it's not the Mary that's forcing the issue, it's her player. And the point I'm trying to make is that, if her player insists on forcing the issue, there are a lot of resources she can and should pull from the remaining chapters of the AP to respond to her player's actions. The other point being that, by remembering to use all of these resources, Mary now has a range of options beyond just letting her player short circuit the entire rest of the campaign or killing the player by GM fiat. Surely there is something in the middle, but that's a constant issue in any campaign anyway.
I'm now thinking that the best option, if the player really does want to wage war on Alhaster (which, to me, is what it sounds like is a possibility), then that is probably the time to take a time-out, pause the game, and have an out of game discussion. Simply be open and honest about where the player's actions are headed, and the likely outcome.
Something like, "You know, I've got another four adventures still up my sleeve, and you're trying to do them all at once, well before your characters are ready. I can't see how this is going to lead to anything but me picking out all the juicy stuff from those four adventures and throwing it at you all at once." You'll then have to provide one or more options to get the campaign back on track, like point out the hooks that can be followed without tipping the hand of evil into squashing the PC's here and now. but I do think that once you get the PC's on to the Library, from there it should be pretty sweet there should not be any major red-hearings to divert them from the published path.
That being said, it's not the Mary that's forcing the issue, it's her player. And the point I'm trying to make is that, if her player insists on forcing the issue, there are a lot of resources she can and should pull from the remaining chapters of the AP to respond to her player's actions. The other point being that, by remembering to use all of these resources, Mary now has a range of options beyond just letting her player short circuit the entire rest of the campaign or killing the player by GM fiat. Surely there is something in the middle, but that's a constant issue in any campaign anyway.
Aha, I gotcha now. Yeah, I think in her game situation, the player's eyes are a lot bigger than his sword, so to speak, and it's maybe only fair for her to give him a "what's what."
Splendid fun reading your posts everyone:)
I can never again--not in this campaign anyway--just say "Trust me, it will be all right." That trust is already squandered. The same thing happened, with GM/player roles reversed, in SCAP.
Mary
However, you can say, "Trust me, that way will get you killed." Which is effectively what will happen if the player tries to go after the big guys in Prince of Redhand. Faced with two choices A and B, A may be bad, and B certainly is bad, the player will choose A, or start looking for C. Either way, he's not going with B, which is what you want to accomplish.
Even if commune allowed open-ended questions like "Who told Zeech to build the ziggurat?" I still wouldn't have answered that one. The spell itself says that deities don't know everything, and Lashonna was subtle enough that even Zeech probably thinks is was his own idea.
Even so, I had something similar happen IMC, (although, this was due more to player arrogance that actual ill intent), and I sat down with the players out of game and asked them if they really wanted to play the "Us vs. Alhaster" campaign. They agreed it wasn't going to be much fun for anyone, and reconsidered their course of action.
Splendid fun reading your posts everyone:)
Well, it was splendid fun running through your great adventure.
good stuff
Thanks. Great strategies. This deserved a bump.
I agree, wraith. And even though no one has asked in the last 3 years, Im going to answer anyway.
In my campaign, I made it clear that although Zeech is evil, He is helping to stem the tide of Reyhu orcs to the north. If he is deposed, who would be powerful enough to take his place? The pcs? yeah, probably, but then who would stop the age of worms? So the group decided that Zeech could live...for now.
Agreed. Plus, the Angels are everywhere and can appear as anyone. It would be no trouble whatsoever to monitor the PCs and hear any plans they might make. I had angels teleport my PCs to the aerie when they were entertaining similiar notions. The queen of the erinyes (made up a name), told them to the letter exactly what the angels had heard and that any future acts of unlawfulness would be met with full force. Being stared down by a dozen of the fiends changed their minds quickly... (Plus, I "leaked" the fact that the angels had levels..)
This wasn't followed by an Initiative roll? Wow.
Anyway, I have hard time imagining what sort of PCs wouldn't want to kill Zeech on the spot. Good PCs will want to kill him as an evil tyrant. Evil PCs will want to kill him because he's going to try screwing with them. Neutral Greedy PCs will want to kill him for his stuff, which he is too weak to keep. (Not only at 15th level his Blessed Angels are supposed to be mooks, they are totally pathetic even as mooks. And there is only 12 of them. Zeech himself and his underlings are jokes. Those who have stats are nearly guaranteed to be blown away, or turned into mind-slaves, with a single action.)
So, basically, a decent GM should either invent new plot reasons not to gank Zeech, or to plan for Zeech to be ganked.
I agree, wraith. And even though no one has asked in the last 3 years, Im going to answer anyway.
In my campaign, I made it clear that although Zeech is evil, He is helping to stem the tide of Reyhu orcs to the north. If he is deposed, who would be powerful enough to take his place? The pcs?
Here's my two-step plan for dealing with whatever stupid orc horde can be nearby, and which Zeech's losers can conceivably hold off:
1. Cast Greater Planar Binding. Summon something like a trumpet archon, who will be naturally inclined to smite a chaotic evil horde. Ask him to smite a chaotic evil horde. If it disagrees, dismiss it without stirring any trouble and just summon a more sensible one.2. Learn, sometime after the adventure, that Reyhu orcs were crushed, and congratulate youself.
Here's what my current players probably would do in such situation:
1. Teleport (or otherwise travel) to the orcs' greatest chief hideout.
2. Explain to him that his alternatives are becoming their vassal or horrible death. If the later is chosen, present the same alternatives to his successor. Repeat until this process of natural selection puts someone sensible on the top.
3. After this basic point is driven home, establish a mutually profitable agreement - like, if he's going to deal with lesser orc tribes who are up to no good, he's going to get various cool stuff in return. And their backing as the true orc king of whatever, of course.
4. Get back to the main plot, on the same day or the next day, bask in their glory.
Additionally, is there a reason that one of the local priests wouldn't bring him back? We are dealing some pretty high level stuff here.
...so PCs will soul-kill every single significant enemy, one way or another (keeping an enslaved barghest for this task is the cheapest core way by far), if the possibility of resurrection is established or implied to be on the table.
In any case, the point of Prince of Redhand is Roleplaying over Combat. If they assassinate the prince I would rule they loose the chance to rule Redhand later. Someone else has just stepped into that role and is loathe to give it up at that point.
Why anyone would think that his opinion is going to matter?
BTW, I think the Blessed Angles are deadly. There's really not much a party can do against flying, teleporting at will killers. A party can't have spells ready all the time, and through sheer atrition, the angels will usually win against all but the craftiest PCs. All the angels have to really do is teleport in, concentrate shots on a single PC, teleport back, and so forth.
This won't work against a party who survived that far. At all. They've faced dragons before, if they don't even know how to deal with flying strafers, they are already dead. Blessed Suckers won't ever get a drop on a 15th-level party, thanks to not having any means to do (neither to trace them, nor to prevent a normal Initiative roll once they port in). This means they won't be able to get out before the second round. This means they die. Projecting possible abilities of my PCs that currently run AoW to 15th level, the artificer PC will whip out an item with a chained SoD, having little means to know how weak they are beforehand, and the battle will be over right then. Other PCs will probably be able to kill only one per round (fly/pounce; fly/charge with challeling spells through the weapon; fly/Clerzilla smash), but this will be quite enough.
To add something positive, how I'm likely to solve this plot stumbling block:
1. Lashonna won't try to hide her nature or affiliation with the cult of Kyuss from PCs. My players tend to play very trusting people, but there are limits on their gullibility. She will insist, that she hates Dragotha and Kyuss (true), and intends to backtab them with PCs' help (true). What she won't add to this is her intention to steal Kyuss' power and use it to scour the world of life in revenge for her fate. (I never really liked BBEGs who have zero interaction with PCs before the final battle, anyway.)
2. They will go to Redhand to meet with her secretly (so that the cult of Kyuss won't notice). They will learn the meaning of the ziggurat there, and they will be encouraged to lay smackdown on Zeech. The reason for attending the feast might still be a meeting with Lashonna.
3. Lashonna will either use a backup ziggurat, or, depending on whether she will be able to get enough of PCs trust and convince them to let her "maintain the appearances to quell the suspicions of Dragotha and other cultists", the one in Redhand.
So your party is probably an Artificer, a Duskblade, a Cleric, and someone who took at least one level in pouncing Barbarian. How do you expect them not to automaticly crush any opposition they face in a pre-made adventure without the DM changing the adventure to handle this kind of power level?
The non-core classes allowed do practically nothing to increase power level. Well, maybe the artificer, but very arguably. They only allow more character concepts to be playable and make my work as a GM considerably easier. So, I don't get your question.
One thing that may or may not have been discussed here (didn't read all the previous posts) is to simply state that PC's should not be taking weapons/armor/offensive items with them. This includes staves, wands, all weapons and armor, shields, and anything else that precludes one of your PC's attacking somebody.
It will be interesting to see what your PC's can come up with to hide or conceal the fact that they mean harm to Zeech.
In my group I have a paladin and cleric of Heironeous, a gnome barbarian, an elf wizard/fighter/arcane archer and a halfling rogue/sorcerer/arcane trickster. Any PC's that show up to the ball in their regular clothing or gear will be turned away at the door. They have to go out and buy some nice clothes, and dress the part.
I think my group will see Zeech as a foe, but will realize that going after him directly at this event is not the ideal solution.