http://www.apple.com/trailers/fox/eragon/
Ok, so it looks a little cheesy but at least it has some promise about it. The first in another fantasy trilogy based on the childrens books by Christopher Paolini.
Not read the books myself yet but two fantasy enthusiasts I trust have, and they are going giddy over the trailer. :)
Roll on Dragonlance... ;)
The odd thing about this one is that my hubby actually wants to see it, despite not being a big fan of straight-up fantasy. ?
Hopefully it'll be worth his movie ticket!
Ahem.
I would warn against this series, if you are big on Originality, Anti-plagiarism, and fantasy's history.
The author of the books sandwiched Tolkien, Star Wars, LeGuin and McCaffrey into a single monstrosity, and then ripped off a slew of names, places, and plots to write the novel. He wrote it at 17, and it is a horrid piece of prose that gets a free pass because "he was so young" when he wrote it.
Why is this important? Because if you respect artisitc integrity you should not support this individual. And the movie, if anything like the book, will be a sad disappointment if you have read any fantasy previously.
I feel pretty strongly about this; I suggest you save your money and watch somethig a little more original.
PS, please no one spring up and use some relativist rhetoric about how there are new stories and everyeone does it. The blatant and low-quality nature of this authors actions is just bad, just wrong.
I have never disagreed with anyone on these boards ever I always find most of you right on. But Luke Fleeman you are a jerk. It makes me mad that you would tell people not to buy a book or support someone because "you think he copied other pieces of work"(well if he did he would be in trouble for it that why they make Anti-plagiarism laws!) I admit that there are a lot of similarities and I think he used some of the books you listed above as building blocks but he was original with his idea! I have read over 55 fantasy books within this last two years (not a lot I know but I’m kind of busy) and I LOVED LOVED LOVED the two books. Bottom line is I respect him because he could write at age 17( something i couldnt do), I respect him because he wrote a good book. I think you should respect him for these things. I don’t know how old you are but one day if you ever write a fantasy book, which I highly doubt you will do, I will respect what you have said because you may have one ounce of an idea as to how hard it is to write a book!
Whew… sorry I just feel that some jerks should keep their mouths shut I don’t care that you don’t like it but man why put someone who worked hard on something down for it?
Go Luke!
I have never disagreed with anyone on these boards ever I always find most of you right on. But Luke Fleeman you are a jerk. It makes me mad that you would tell people not to buy a book or support someone because "you think he copied other pieces of work"(well if he did he would be in trouble for it that why they make Anti-plagiarism laws!) I admit that there are a lot of similarities and I think he used some of the books you listed above as building blocks but he was original with his idea! I have read over 55 fantasy books within this last two years (not a lot I know but I’m kind of busy) and I LOVED LOVED LOVED the two books. Bottom line is I respect him because he could write at age 17( something i couldnt do), I respect him because he wrote a good book. I think you should respect him for these things. I don’t know how old you are but one day if you ever write a fantasy book, which I highly doubt you will do, I will respect what you have said because you may have one ounce of an idea as to how hard it is to write a book!
Whew… sorry I just feel that some jerks should keep their mouths shut I don’t care that you don’t like it but man why put someone who worked hard on something down for it?
It was just an opinion. I didn't see anything that deserved calling the man a jerk. Even if you're the guy who wrote Eragon, Luke didn't use profane language or fail to detail the reasons why he didn't like it. We talk about what we like and dislike here. Everything under the sun.
You're clearly a fan of the work and Luke didn't like it, but I just got blasted by some guy in another post after he got me to admit that I don't really care for Living Greyhawk. We can't all agree but we can be civil.
Plagiarism laws DO NOT stop plagiarism. Harry Potter is the name of the main kid in the movie Troll from 1986 and everything in Rowlands' books is completely bit, but the only person suing for plagiarism is her, over other author's works. Imagine.
Many books that deeply touch people are often hacked assemblages from the works of other authors. That it touched you is all that matters. Don't worry that Luke's recommendation to avoid Eragon will in any way prevent that author from making a million million dollars, because it isn't going to happen.
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I'd like to add that Luke's warning isn't going to stop me from wanting to see the movie, because:
A. I prefer to formulate my own opinions.
B. Issues with the writing quality of the book may not translate into issues for the film, although films are known to introduce their own problems as well.
C. An overwhelming majority of major books and films are derivative works based on the body of existing works that pervade our culture. That's not to diminish the great achievements other authors have made in creating works with a lot of original content, but I see no need to categorically dismiss derivative works.
But mostly reason A.
So there's no reason to resort to name-calling here. People are just offering their opinions of the story in question. People reading those opinions will make their own judgments.
Im sorry
I was having a bad day
And then i read that....
LOL !
Sorry luke!
I don't mind, but I don't think that my jerkiness negates my point. Because you like books I despise doesn't make me a jerk; it makes us have a difference of opinion. And I don't think I have to write novels to have a good opinion. Additionally, I don't think ANYONE is free from criticism- that's how the world works.
Notice, I didn't say you couldn't like the book, just that he has committed a high crime in literature, and I dislike that.
But, so as not to be called a person without proof, allow me to demonstrate, as lifted from an Amazon review:
"Also, the names of many people and places copy Lord of the Rings.
Arya - Arwen, Arda
Ardwen - Arwen
Isenstar - Isengard
Mithrim - Mithrim or mithril
Eragon - Aragorn
Angrenost - Angrenost, the Sindarin name for Isengard
Morgothal - Morgoth
Elessari - Elessar
Furnost - Fornost
Hadarac Desert - Harad Desert
Melian - Melian
Vanir - Valinor
Eridor - Eriador
Imiladris - Imladris
Undin - Fundin/Udun "
I know some are only close, but they are not merely names, but distinct, clear adaptions. And the story, for anyone who has Read Tolkien or watched Star Wars, is nto just a tribute, a pastiche, or a story inspired by those sources- it is a hackneyed photocopy.
And did we need YET ANOTHER farmboy becoming a hero? Give me a break.
And, BTW, I am no literary critic, but the book is obviously written by a wannabe writer who is age 17. Not so great.
I do agree it will not neccesarily make the movie bad. I am just against supporting an author who is a plagiarist. He cannot be prosecuted because he is only a "near-plagiarist" or "inspired by" others works. More than anything, it is a pedestrian young adult book that knocks off others.
In the world of fiction alot of authors work with stereotypes; but Paolini crossed the line. And no more excuses because "he wrote it at 17." I don't care how old you are- there is a minimum stadard of quality.
In the end, though, if you enjoy the book, super, read it. As I understand it, many kids like the books, and if they read, wonderful. As for me, I'd rather be reading Tad Williams, George RR Martin, Michael Moorcock, Robert E. Howard or Frank Herbert. Do as thou wilt.
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I have not read the book(s), but this sounds suspiciously, even eerily, like the AD&D campaigns we used to run back when we were 13 or so... Could I sue the author for plagiarism? :)
Thanks for the heads-up; I read far too much junk anyway, and greatly prefer my bad books to be bad all by themselves, rather than bad knockoffs.
When your right your right.
I still like it though
And again sorry.
I like Michael Moorcock too
But anyway sorry for my bad mood guys you got no idea
Don't apologize for liking it. Never apoligize for liking what you like. I'm not saying some people don't like the book; I am just waging a one man war to destroy the author and all his drivel. He does rip off the best, so parts are bound to be ok.
I hope you did not feel persecuted for your likes. The fact that you like Moorcock means you're good in my book.
That being said, don't let me stop any fans from reading or watching. I just want a heads up for all those concerned or interested about the rip offs and ridiculousness.
With that in mind, I suggest you pick up a little title called a Game of Thrones by George RR Martin. It'll change your life.
Hmmmm...
Change my life huh?
OK I WILL TRY IT
when I am done I will talk to you about Luke!
Well, a lot of people have complained that Terry Brooks ripped off Tolkien in his first books in the Shanarra series and that so did that guy; think it was McKeiran in his Dark Tide or something like that triogy, but I liked them; i dont know; is really just the genre. Your list of names was an eye opener; idially wonder if he will get sued. My wife really likes the book i guess; I havent read it, but will see the movie; not expecting to much, but the plotline seems pretty simplistic as far as I can tell, but I like movies and there doesnt seem to be much else to watch so if I dont watch it, they might not try out any fantasy movies that would really be worth watching; personally, am more jazzed to see all the marvel movies they have been making; hope they make a few of my favorites but they have been messing the stories up horrendously.
I have a hard time taking anything seriously when the BBEG is named "Galbatorix". Oh, there was also the totally unnecessary baby-on-a-spear scene...
I liked the first book, but the second one bored me to tears. I still plan to see the movie.
(And Luke, you may have a point, but you are being a little too over-the-top about it. His names are similar to those of many fantasy names, but still...the story line is pretty unique.)
And Luke, you may have a point, but you are being a little too over-the-top about it. His names are similar to those of many fantasy names, but still...the story line is pretty unique.
Re-read lord of the rings, and watch Star Wars. Then think about it again.
He was fifteen when he wrote the first book btw. And the description of the old dragon knight/vagabond whatever seemed almost to me like they copied it straight from the Belgariad for Belgarth.
However I still liked the first book, but haven't ever read the second book, I do plan on seeing the movie on opening night.
All I know is that almost everything has been done and therefore almost everything is pulled from one source or another.
No one says anything about St. Cuthbert being an actual saint and the cross of St. Cuthbert closely resembling the same d&d deities starburst.
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I probably won't, but that really has more to do with movies in general than Eragon in particular. I try to be careful about what I go see, since, in my opinion, there are a lot of movies that just aren't worth the money you shell out to go see them. For example, the second Pirates of the Carribean movie.
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I probably won't, but that really has more to do with movies in general than Eragon in particular. I try to be careful about what I go see, since, in my opinion, there are a lot of movies that just aren't worth the money you shell out to go see them. For example, the second Pirates of the Carribean movie.
I know what you mean. I wish I could get back the money I spent on Van Helsing. And that was just a rental.
All I know is that almost everything has been done and therefore almost everything is pulled from one source or another.
See earlier in the thread.
It is not amatter of being generic, hackneyed fantasy like everyone else does. It is a wholesale hijacking of plot, characters, and name.
Beyond that, it is poor prose.
Your opinion doesn't really bother me that much, that being said, I haven't read Eldest so all my knowledge comes from Eragon, and though I already stated I thought a single description remained me almost exactly of the description from The Belgariad, I can't really say whether it was or not, but I can say that the book Eragon did draw heavily from other fantasy favored books I have no doubt, but nothing was a direct copy, Lord of the Rings is about a bunch of short people climbing to a mountain for three movies to destory an artifact of evil, Eragon is definitely more akin to Star Wars then LOTR, actually, I see very few similiarities to LOTRs.
Star Wars though has a generic plot in its own right as well, Evil Empire, farm boy hero, fall of evil empire, straight forward stand fantasy plot if you ask me, it about how it achieved that seemed different between Star Wars and Eragon (also again I haven't read Eldest so my knowledge is only half what it should be at this point).
If you really want to prove your point, you should use something more then just names, as there is only so many names out there and just because Aragorn and Eragon seem similiar doesn't mean anything at all. Now if you directly quote the book and then directly quote another book so that it can be looked up and confirmed, I would be more inclined to believe you.
If it isn't as plain as the nose on your face, you might never believe it.
I don't think it is a valid defense to say "You have to specfically quote every instance in this hackneyed waste of trees where he ripped other people off."
It's there. Face it.
I don't feel like making the argument, since it is self evident, but I want you to see the light, blinding as it is, so I'll give you a place to go see it yourself:
http://www.anti-shurtugal.com/
or
http://freewebs.com/aryas-eyebrows/frame.htm
Before you say it, yes I know these sites are Anti-Eragon. Nonetheless, they present copious evidence about the cut and paste series called a novel.
THE MOVIE SUCKED DONT GO SEE IT
I WAS REALLY SAD I LOVE THE BOOK AND WAS WAITING FOR THIS BUT IT SUCKED
Dude first off the only thing that’s really the same is that there’s a guy named Eragon and he gets a Dragon named Shapira (I don’t know how to spell her name but you get it), the urgals are just humans with jacked teeth, the Dwarfs look just like humans, so do the one elf, the last fight scene sucked, and there was a lot of characters taken out and they acted dif then in the book and Even if I hadn’t read the book it was just a bad movie bad acting, bad everything, oh and it was boring
This is from a guy whose favorite book is Eragon and I have read a ton of books so its not like this is the only one therefore Its my Favorite
If you like the book don’t see it, it’s a waste of money for anyone
Luke, See? Now you can see the movie, because if people that like that book shouldn't see it, then people that don't like it should.
I read the book and Elest as well. It was a gift. I enjoyed the first one, despite it not being the most original plotline ever. And let's be honest, the farmboy destined for greatness has been used and abused.
That being said, I enjoyed the first book. Not every series can be a Wheel of Time or Amber. Don't expect any real surprises in the books so far if you're over the age of ten though. I saw most of them coming a mile away. Let me preface that by saying that I read enough to have my own private library. Still it was enjoyable enough.
But the second book was painfully slow. All the detail you expected to start in the first book is all lumped into Eldest. So if you critique hisa writing style, then yes as a writer myself, I agree his story pacing and plotting could use some work.
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Not having seen the movie or read the book, I should probably keep my mouth shut, but check out the reviews on rottentomatoes.com. In short, they support Luke's criticism - at least five different critics point out that the filmmakers ruthlessly cribbed from Star Wars. I don't know if the book is the same way, though - other reviewers said it was much better.
I enjoyed the first one, despite it not being the most original plotline ever. And let's be honest, the farmboy destined for greatness has been used and abused.
That being said, I enjoyed the first book. Not every series can be a Wheel of Time or Amber.
I'm not trying to be a jerk here. But I found it passing amusing that you say that the farmboy destined for greatness is a tired plot, THEN uphold the virtue of Wheel of Time as an example of greatness...A series that turns a farmboy(shephard is close enough in my book) into a hero As well as a blacksmith, a horse trader's son, ann innkeeper's daughter, and a local herbalist into minor heroes, all from the same TINY village.
While not technically farmers, it's just a matter of tiny nuance that seperates these young people from that stereotype.I just finished Eragon, and I did NOT like it. I have read both Wheel of Time and Amber and DID enjoy them.
There are similarities in most fantasy though, you have to realize that. Granted, similarities are not the same thing as blatent rip-offs.
One of the examples of this is when people duplicate something called the Monomyth (or mythic journey). The monomyth will kinda surprise you with how many people use the same structure, either by coincidence or by intent.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monomyth
Anyhow, thought I would throw in my 2 coppers. It takes much amusement to motivate me to actually post...now I must rest.
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Well first on the whole "Erragon is ripping off starwars" issue, that I keep seeing poping up.
You all do relize that George Lucas pretty much ripped THAT movie off of Akira "Kurosawa's The Hidden Fortress" right? And that Jedai are pretty much sci-fi samurai right?
"rip-offs" like this have been happening for years.
We see idea, we like them, we try and use them with our own ideas. Why? Because there have been so many ideas that have been thrown into the public that it's hard being "creative" these days.
Granted some of the arguments off Erragon ripping off LotR seem pretty strong, but while I have not read the books but I do know the plot is not seven individuals representing the elves, dwarves, Men and small folk go to throw an object into the volcano in the middle of the villan's kingdom.
So the author used names from famous books to inspire his own names. Are the characters word for the same as those they rip off? I don't mean just names, but mannerisims, race, dilect, pesonality?
This I doubt. I doubt it because the LotR is WAY to famous and popular a book that, if Eragon did plagurize it, it would have caused a massive uproar against the book when it came out.
And further more, for those that think the book is cliche or un-origional. Yes, perhaps for most of you who I can only assume have been reading fantasy for X amount of years and I KNOW have been playing D&D for X amount more, it probably is cliche. But remeber that it's a CHILDREN's fantasy. Plots that may seem tired and cliche to you or me probably won't seem that way to some 10-13yr old who hasn't read a drop of fantasy their entire life.
The ironic thing is that I'm not even a fan of the series. However when people give reviews like this without even taking things like the above mentioned, I feel I must disagree, or at least argue the point.
As for the movie, I heard it sucked, but I don't listen to critics because I find the Pretentious and quite frankly I never asked for their oppinion in the first place. So I probably will go see it and if it dose indeed suck, I'll shrug, say it was my choice, and go see Tenacious D and the Pick of Destiny.
Besides, if fantasy fans have anything to be pissed about it should be the fact that NewLine is NOT going to let Peter Jackson dirrect The Hobbit movie.
Luke, See? Now you can see the movie, because if people that like that book shouldn't see it, then people that don't like it should.
LOL. Well played, sir. ;-)
Well first on the whole "Erragon is ripping off starwars" issue, that I keep seeing poping up.
You all do relize that George Lucas pretty much ripped THAT movie off of Akira "Kurosawa's The Hidden Fortress" right? And that Jedai are pretty much sci-fi samurai right?
"rip-offs" like this have been happening for years.
Yawn. You do not truly think that because Star Wars is a ripoff, it makes Eragon ok, do you? Fine, he didn't ripoff Star Wars- he ripped off Kurosawa.
We see idea, we like them, we try and use them with our own ideas. Why? Because there have been so many ideas that have been thrown into the public that it's hard being "creative" these days.
Another poor defense for plagiraism stemming from the misunderstanding of the difference between "inspiration" or "theme" and "stealing."
Granted some of the arguments off Erragon ripping off LotR seem pretty strong, but while I have not read the books but I do know the plot is not seven individuals representing the elves, dwarves, Men and small folk go to throw an object into the volcano in the middle of the villan's kingdom.
What constitutes stealing then? So unless the Story is EXACTLY the same, it is not a ripoff? Please.
I doubt it because the LotR is WAY to famous and popular a book that, if Eragon did plagurize it, it would have caused a massive uproar against the book when it came out.
Please see the links above, and read the umpteen reviews offered in this thread. There has been an uproar, for some time. Just because they are not out lynching Paolini doesn't mean no one cares.
But remeber that it's a CHILDREN's fantasy. Plots that may seem tired and cliche to you or me probably won't seem that way to some 10-13yr old who hasn't read a drop of fantasy their entire life.
Hogwash. I refuse to accept that a person should be given a pass who is not creative, not a good writer, and a plagiarist, because he is a children's author.
To me, this is far more insidious in this manner. Some 11 year old kid reads Eragon, and thinks that it is the one that started it all, and then sees SW and LotR as the ripoffs because he does not know better.
There are tons of great fantasy works for kids out there. The Hobbit. A Wrinkle in Time. Narnia. The Dark is Rising. Kids are entitled to the same quality, and it is out there.
However when people give reviews like this without even taking things like the above mentioned, I feel I must disagree, or at least argue the point.
I did take things like above into account. Read the whole thread back. And many other reviewers have taken these things into consideration. As it stands, few of your points seem valid to begin with, as I have pointed out.
Don't disagree just because someone else is getting a bad review. An artist must accept the risk of criticism, and if they cannot, they are definitely in the wrong field.
As for the movie, I heard it sucked, but I don't listen to critics
More power to you. Just because someone is a critic, that does nto make them a "bad guy" or "pretentious." They have the job of studying and reviewing movies/books. You may not want to hear it, but someone does- that's how they get paid. A critic is just a guide. This is a person who has an expertise in the field. They don't criticize to be mean- they do it to further the field and improve overall quality by giving warnings.
As I see it, the entirety of your argument is:
1. Plagiarism is ok because someone else has done it.
2. It is only plagiarism if it is an EXACT ripoff of the exact names, plot, places and happenings. Piecemeal theft is acceptable.
3. An author may be a hack, as long as he caters to children.
4. Criticism is unfair, in any form.
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Apparently trying to put up my entire reply all at once is a no go, so consider this part one.
Yawn. You do not truly think that because Star Wars is a ripoff, it makes Eragon ok, do you? Fine, he didn't ripoff Star Wars- he ripped off Kurosawa.
Accually I was only trying to point out the irony and that saying it was a rip-off of starwars was more of a case of the frying pan calling the kettle black.
Another poor defense for plagiraism stemming from the misunderstanding of the difference between "inspiration" or "theme" and "stealing."
How? Just because something is similar dose not make it a ripoff. From my understanding, the plot in Erragon is not like LotR except that it is fantasy. If a few names were made based off of other characters, it dose not make them rip-offs if the Characters are nothing alike. If Erragon was a ranger who refused the throne but then reclaimed it later. Yes, that would be argument for plagurisim. But from what I understand that is not the case. The story from what I gather is about a farm boy who finds out that he is the last in a line of dragon riders and uses his abilities to liberate his home kindom. Not really the same as LotR. It DOSE seem similar to the first starwars, but I'll get into that later.
What constitutes stealing then? So unless the Story is EXACTLY the same, it is not a ripoff? Please.
When did I ever say that? Again I was simply trying to point out that it's easy to find similarities. Hell, without even reading the book and only going by the movie trailer, I can find similarities to:
the movie Dragonheart, the game Drakengaurd, Starwars, The Princess Bride, The Lion King, The Lord of the Rings, Final Fantasy, etc.I would like to point out that if Eragon dose seem to much like starwars, mabey it's because Lucas used a very cliched plotline.
(See the link that Balron was gracious enough to put up in his post which appears before my own, it can probably explain this better than I.)
Please see the links above, and read the umpteen reviews offered in this thread. There has been an uproar, for some time. Just because they are not out lynching Paolini doesn't mean no one cares.
I never said that no one cares, I would be an idiot to think that.
My whole argument was that if it was a direct plagurisim, as you seem to argue it is, it would have gotten alot more coverage. And I don't just mean among the Sci-fi or Fantasy comunities, I'm talking the unwashed MASSES here. It would have been argued in the media and in the public areas where everone goes. Not just the messege boards of Fanta/Sci-fi fans. Because the works you site are popular with EVERYONE, and pubilic attention would be unavoidable.From what I understand, the authors of these works (or there families in the case of Tolkien) are not calling out Plagurisim, so why should we try and bring out the lynch ropes?
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Hogwash. I refuse to accept that a person should be given a pass who is not creative, not a good writer, and a plagiarist, because he is a children's author.
To me, this is far more insidious in this manner. Some 11 year old kid reads Eragon, and thinks that it is the one that started it all, and then sees SW and LotR as the ripoffs because he does not know better.
There are tons of great fantasy works for kids out there. The Hobbit. A Wrinkle in Time. Narnia. The Dark is Rising. Kids are entitled to the same quality, and it is out there.
I agree with you, good fantasy IS out there and is a child is determined enough, they can and will read it.
What I was trying to point out is that the book could serve as a stepping stone for someone new to fanasy. If after reading X amount of fantasy they decide "Eragon Sucks" that is fine. It would be their opinion and they are more than welcome to it.But two points I have to make on your argument is,
1. Not all these books, as well written as they might be, most of them don't hold that much in the public spotlight with the exceptions going to the Tolkien and Narnia series.
I admit that if I was not forced to read it in 6th grade I would have never even heard of A Wrinkle in Time (though I'm glad I did get to read this) and I have never even heard of the Dark is Rising. The other point I think would best be taken from a scene in the movie Jarhead. Towards the end the Iraq war ends after only a few short days. The main character sits in the sand feeling frustrated and useless. Suddenly he hears the Rolling Stones' "Paint it Black" blaring from a passing chopper. In a cry of utter frustration he cries "That song's for Vietnam, DON'T WE EVEN GET OUR OWN @^$&*$%^ SONG!?!?" The point I make of that example is that while we may have a longing for stuff from back in the day as we get older, when we are young we like to look for that which is newer and more likely relevent to our own mindsets and intrest.
I also don't think you should short change children. Even a child can figure out that a story from the 20th century did NOT rip-off a story written in the new millenium.
I did take things like above into account. Read the whole thread back. And many other reviewers have taken these things into consideration. As it stands, few of your points seem valid to begin with, as I have pointed out.
Don't disagree just because someone else is getting a bad review. An artist must accept the risk of criticism, and if they cannot, they are definitely in the wrong field.
First off, why CAN'T I disagree? Is it now a crime to play devil's advocate? My whole argument was that certain opinions and yes, probably your post most of all, were making heated arguments that we really didn't need. To put it another way, there were alot of mountains that seemed to be made out of molehills.
Furthermore, if the arguments I brought up were taken into account that's fine but that dose not appear to be the case in some of the post I read, which is why I posted my reply in the first place.More power to you. Just because someone is a critic, that does nto make them a "bad guy" or "pretentious." They have the job of studying and reviewing movies/books. You may not want to hear it, but someone does- that's how they get paid. A critic is just a guide. This is a person who has an expertise in the field. They don't criticize to be mean- they do it to further the field and improve overall quality by giving warnings.
And that is fine if you want to read them. I was only stating that I PERSONALLY feel that most crtics are a bit full of themselves and as such, not relevent to an average shmo like myself. Quite frankly I wasn't even trying to raise an argument on that one so why are you trying to start one?
As I see it, the entirety of your argument is:
1. Plagiarism is ok because someone else has done it.
2. It is only plagiarism if it is an EXACT ripoff of the exact names, plot, places and happenings. Piecemeal theft is acceptable.
3. An author may be a hack, as long as he caters to children.
4. Criticism is unfair, in any form.
Well Mr. Freeman, you sir are a jerk and I mean that in every sence of the word. Did I ever once mentioned your name? No, in fact I never mentioned anyones name as this was never meant to be directed at anybody. The most direct I ever got in my post is the words "some of you" but again it was never meant as a directed attack, but something to catch the attention of those the arguments seemed more relevant to.
I said what I said simply because I wanted more of a balanced argument than the cry for a lynching, Which I note Mr. Freeman you seemed to be at the head of.You want my argument in a nutshell, fine here it is:
1. Just because something is similar to something else is not justification to call the first thing bad.
2. There are diferent degrees of similarity and if an item is similar in the less important details, it dose not mean the big important details are being coppied.
3. Why are we haveing such an aggressive argument over a childrens book that, while popular is not even THAT popular? There are many who love or hate it and that's fine but it's getting way to heated in here.
To anyone else if my post seemed like an attack I apologize, that was never the intent. I just wanted to raise some questions and state some oppinions. Luke Freeman, you however I will not apologize to. You took my post and used it to make a personal attack on me. I accept critisism but your reply was just uncalled for.
From reading your post you are someone who likes to veiw things in extremes. Your messege seems to be an artist can only be completely origional (which is damn near impossible in this day and age) or they are plagurizing villans that are out to ruin the proven integrity of artist and authors from decades past. You also seem to feel it's ok to attack someone simply for puting up their own oppinions. You also seem a bit full of yourself at times.
And yes, that last bit was an ACCUAL gripe against you.
FlashMan that was very well said
FlashMan YOU ROCK BUDDY!!!
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I still think a dragon with bird wings is retarded.
Ditto, I like my wyrms scaly! I will probably see it on video, I could care less if the storyline is cliche' or stolen. Anything that could potentially draw more people into the Fantasy Genre is a blessing in my eyes. Is Peter Jackson the best director ever? No. Did his work help give Hollywood a much needed kick in the pants in regards to works of fantasy. Yes. There were some pretty barren years for fantasy on the big screen but lately I have seen movies that I may not love but definately are forwarding the agenda of fantasy lovers.
ANY decently made fantasy movie is good in my book. More exposure=good.I love that Narnia was a well made movie. Is there problems with it? Sure. So what? The movie is enjoyable and well done, and draws new people into the fold while providing an outlet for fantasy lovers. Why is this a Christian novel/movie whilst D&D is considered a sin? Who cares? It does it's job of bringing fantasy into the mainstream.
All this may actually one day lead to a GOOD D&D MOVIE!!! Fingers crossed.
FH
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Anything that could potentially draw more people into the Fantasy Genre is a blessing in my eyes.
ANY decently made fantasy movie is good in my book. More exposure=good.
Amen Brother!
I love that Narnia was a well made movie. Is there problems with it? Sure. So what? The movie is enjoyable and well done, and draws new people into the fold while providing an outlet for fantasy lovers. Why is this a Christian novel/movie whilst D&D is considered a sin? Who cares? It does it's job of bringing fantasy into the mainstream.
I read that they have started filming on Prince Caspian. Booyah! That should be really good as well.
All this may actually one day lead to a GOOD D&D MOVIE!!! Fingers crossed.FH
As far as a good D&D movie is concerned, I agree that we need one. The two that they have done so far have been horrible abominations. I think they could take any single episode of the old 80s cartoon (which I now own on glorious DVD) and they would have a better plot than either of the two "so-called" D&D movies.
grumble, grumble...stupid 2nd movie barbarian character...grumble, grumble.
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I will probably see it on video, I could care less if the storyline is cliche' or stolen. Anything that could potentially draw more people into the Fantasy Genre is a blessing in my eyes. Is Peter Jackson the best director ever? No. Did his work help give Hollywood a much needed kick in the pants in regards to works of fantasy. Yes. There were some pretty barren years for fantasy on the big screen but lately I have seen movies that I may not love but definately are forwarding the agenda of fantasy lovers.
ANY decently made fantasy movie is good in my book. More exposure=good.
I love that Narnia was a well made movie. Is there problems with it? Sure. So what? The movie is enjoyable and well done, and draws new people into the fold while providing an outlet for fantasy lovers. Why is this a Christian novel/movie whilst D&D is considered a sin? Who cares? It does it's job of bringing fantasy into the mainstream.
All this may actually one day lead to a GOOD D&D MOVIE!!! Fingers crossed.FH
Not sure I agree, Fakey. A plethora of poorly executed cash-in fantasy movies will perpetuate the idea that fantasy is childish or inferior as a genre of fiction. The visual media are far more influential than books, as they have greater reach, so a series of duff fantasy movies will tarnish the whole of the genre. So it will still be stuck in a geeky ghetto, and we will still be considered anorak-wearing weirdos for liking this stuff (irrespective of the fact that we don't like a lot of this stuff, do possess critical faculties, and in any case get most of our kicks from reading rather than watching movies).
More importantly, the market could be killed off by shoddy product. A couple of years ago, I would have gone to see Eragon come-what-may, simply because a few years ago there were no fantasy movies of any note (I, like so many others on these boards, went to see the first D&D movie, for crying out loud). Now I'm like "Meh, another crappy sounding fantasy movie," and I probably won't go to see it. And neither will you, by the sound if it. When the core demographic (we play D&D - surely nuff said) probably can't be bothered, they have a problem.
You know, when the fine folks of our Paizo messageboards start calling each other names over a fantasy film/book that at the best is acknowledged as derivative and at the worst is regarded as a work of plagiarism, I have to wonder if anything has changed since sixth grade.
The only thing sillier than calling someone names in real life is doing it over the internet.
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You know, when the fine folks of our Paizo messageboards start calling each other names over a fantasy film/book that at the best is acknowledged as derivative and at the worst is regarded as a work of plagiarism, I have to wonder if anything has changed since sixth grade.
The only thing sillier than calling someone names in real life is doing it over the internet.
I don't know about that. I think some folks deserve to be called by some kind of name - like those fellows who wrote the scripts for the two D&D movies. They definitely need to be referred to in a very bad way.
Even admired and respected authors often write works that are derivative in some fashion.
Robert Jordan's Wheel of Time has a number of elements that made me think (despite reading and liking the books) that he was deliberately writing Dune in a fantasy universe.
Sword of Shannara by Terry Brooks remarkably resembles the plot of Lord of the Rings.
As for names.... Eragon and Aragorn are not that close, and the characters have few similarities.
Farmboy to hero is a staple of fantasy literature. Garion from the Belgariad also fit this mold, as do numerous others.
Luke has a right to his opinion. I don't have one yet on this subject as I own the books but haven't read them. I don't give the author an automatic pass just because he wrote the novel when he was 15. Frankly, his writing style doesn't really suit me and I haven't been able to get very far in the first book because of it. BUT I had the same problems with Katherine Kurtz's first novel, and R.A. Salvatore's first novel.
I will eventually read the first book and I have no doubt I'll have some criticism for the writing and the language that he uses. I don't think anything could make me spout such cruel denounciations as Luke has been so free with, however. Luke - you have a choice... if you don't like his book... DON'T READ IT.
Also, please take ownership of your statements, as opposed to stating them like they were holy writ. You have an opinion and a strong one about a book... but your tone comes across as rude and self-righteous. If you were a celebrated fantasy author, I might give you a pass as an expert. But as far as I know, you are not. I've always strived to stay out of these arguments, especially after the way too long and vicious Wil Save debate, but sometimes people just get too mean. Please play nice. If you have something mean to say, try and at least say it in a nice way.
- Ashavan
I'm not trying to be a jerk here. But I found it passing amusing that you say that the farmboy destined for greatness is a tired plot, THEN uphold the virtue of Wheel of Time as an example of greatness...A series that turns a farmboy(shephard is close enough in my book) into a hero As well as a blacksmith, a horse trader's son, ann innkeeper's daughter, and a local herbalist into minor heroes, all from the same TINY village.
While not technically farmers, it's just a matter of tiny nuance that seperates these young people from that stereotype.One of the examples of this is when people duplicate something called the Monomyth (or mythic journey). The monomyth will kinda surprise you with how many people use the same structure, either by coincidence or by intent.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monomyth
Anyhow, thought I would throw in my 2 coppers. It takes much amusement to motivate me to actually post...now I must rest.
I can see it passing amusing, but then it just keeps on going. :P To respond I say this... Delivery means quite a bit to an author. The wheel of time has 2 things I'm leery of, the prophecy and the farm boy gone hero scenario. I've read too many books with both, and it gets tiring. But HOW Jordan is able to pull them both off with a unique twist and an incredible style and skill, sets him apart.
As for the similarities and monomyths... ever read Jung?
But hey, at least it has Jeremy Irons..
I bet that's exactly what everyone said when they went to see the first D&D movie. And how wrong everyone was.