I guess all I'm looking for here are peoples opinions of Jzadirune. I have a party that is about to descend for the first time. They tend to be 'quick' adventurers. ie If there's a quick way to the bottom of a dungeon, they find it - without extra help from me (the DM).
Spoilers for Jzadirune
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For example: I notice that there is a secret door on the stiars leading into Jzadirune that leads you almost directly to the lift. Now, if things go the way they usually seem to go...
Do you think 6 1rst level pcs will be able to hold a candle to the Malachite Hold?
Thoughts anyone?
Bard of Midwood
This problem has been discussed several times.
A good solution I heard of is to have the dark ones attack the characters from behind once they descend down into the Malachite Hold. This way the characters might understand that it would be wiser to clear their backs before going any further.
Another solution would be to get rid of the secret door or make it much harder to find in the beginning.
If you have 6 capable players though, they might stand a chance against the hobgoblins and the Ogre, so why not just let them go along with it. You could still send in the Striders at any time when it's getting too tough for them in the Malachite Hold.
The Malachite Hold will prove pretty difficult right away if I recall. It should give them a hint that they're going too far too fast. Any adventurer worth their salt knows to clean out each level before moving on.
Also my PCs were weirded out beyond words when the gnome in the bear suit came onstage and started reciting poetry. It was funny.
The Malachite Fortress is tough! I can be a brutal, let-the-cards-fall-where-they-may type DM, though, so, thinking about your situation, this is what I would do. Let them go down, and then kill them. The ogre in the first hallway, coupled with the elemental there (forget what it's called) will clean their clocks. Do a TPK -- they're first level, so what's the big deal? After they're all dead, have them roll up new characters, and try again. If they don't get the hint, kill them all again. They'll learn eventually.
If that solution does not appeal to you, here's what you do. Check the Players' character sheets before the first game. Note the highest Search check in the party, and then change the DC to find the secret door to one point higher than that. Cheating? Yes. But so what? This step saves their lives.
In my game, the PCs did not find the secret door themselves. In one room, you will find a Dark One named Yuathyb. I expanded this NPC's role enormously, and it was he who eventually told them how to get to the Malachite Fortress. He did this in exchange for the PCs bringing him a cure for the Vanishing -- a scroll the party cleric bought from Jenya in the Cuthbert Temple. If you're feeling bold, simply rule that the PCs cannot find the secret door without his (or another NPC you designate) help.
Finding the way down was one of the big conundrum in my game. The PCs missed the secret door and didn't really follow the way to the elevator so they were exploring Jzadirune in full... though that wasn't really what they wanted to do. My PCs got bored with the length and size of the dungeon crawl and I even had to several times step in and say, "It is ok to go back up and rest and re-equip."
Eventually I could tell several of the PCs were just getting bored and didn't want the extended dungeon crawl so... I moved the elevator. There was no way any of them knew where it was so I had them find it where they were looking (made sure it was a room of about the same size and all).
Tough line... too fast and you get killed... too slow and you get bored.
Sean Mahoney
My crew found their way down, right about when they were supposed to, but the idiots killed the hobgoblin guards in the elevator...and then left the dungeon for the night! Of course, I wasn't going to let them get away with that...Kaz had a good fourteen hours to set up a nice little welcoming committee for them. They did manage to survive, but not without serious bodily harm and a couple of trips into negative hp. That'll learn 'em!
--Fang
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My groups had some interesting encounters with the Dark Ones, this spiced up the dungeon crawling part of the gnome enclave enormously. One group only disbaled the first two dark creepers and took them upstairs to the town guard, the dark stalker asked them, to show him the way to his "children" (btw, wonderful article about the dark ones in the Dragon 324 - if my mind works correctly, could be 322 though, it certainly has a dark one on its cover).
If they would prove their further worthiness he would a) give them his key und b) show them the way down to the Malachite Fortress and c) take his children and vanish into the Underdark under the dwarven hold. He asked them to bring back his missing children, the one that disappeared in the grell workshop and the ones upstairs...
... very good roleplaying opportunities...
In order to release the captured creepers back to their "father" they marched to the town hall and tried to speak with the Lord Mayor, enter Lord Vhalantru, helping them with a release form, setting him up as their mentor for further adventures.
Elves were members in both parties (one even an elven rogue), both times they passed the secret door on the stairs several times without noticing (evil DM grin... it's true, I rolled the checks).
Thank you all for your responses, they have been helpful!
I usually think of myself as a pretty tough DM - I hate to pull punches. So here's how it went down.
1.The party goes down to the landing (J2 I think) and looks at the sconce in the wall. They ignore it.
2. The party moves into J3 (mask room). Looks around and see's the open door to the south. The party's fighter (oddly intelligent for a half orc..) wants to have something to brace open one of the gear-shaped doors and runs back to the landing for the sconce.
3. Fighter tries to pull the sconce out - I rule that it's stuck, even after a pretty decent str check, so he has the ROGUE come an look at it. Well, of course, she finds the trap, the secret door (on a DM viewed nat 20) disables the trap (on a DM rolled nat 20) and opens the secret door.
The quickly found their way into the Malachite hold (and bear in mind they are all still first level). At this point they dispatch the Stone Spike in one round. The ogre comes barreling out the next round to take the rogue and dragon shaman into negative hit points. The ogre is then dispatched in - you guessed it- just over one round.
The ingenuity of PC's is astounding.
thank you all
The ingenuity of PC's is astounding.thank you all
LOL, Yes, if there's one thing I've learned as a DM, it's that no matter how well prepared you think you are, they will always come up with something you didn't think of!
--Fang
I'm sure they will get their asses handed to then quite soon. We did a little over 1/2 Jzaridune before our elf ranger found the secret door down. We were close enough to L2 that the DM was nice and had us level.
If they would prove their further worthiness he would a) give them his key und b) show them the way down to the Malachite Fortress and c) take his children and vanish into the Underdark under the dwarven hold. He asked them to bring back his missing children, the one that disappeared in the grell workshop and the ones upstairs...... very good roleplaying opportunities...
Amazing the parallels with my own game! Yuathyb, the dark stalker, sent the PCs after the grell to prove their trustworthiness to him. He then told them that the lord of the Malachite Fortress was a half-troll and that to defeat him they would need acid and alchemical fire from the alchemical room with the ragamoyffin (which he accidentally inaccurately called a "poltergeist"). After completing that mission, he asked them if they wanted to retrieve Keygan's rat familiar before they went down, which they did, setting up an encounter with another skulk, and one with the mimic. (When the party pursued the skulk into the mimic's room and killed it, the mimic asked, in an Australian accent, "So, we're under new management, then, are we?" Lol!) Finally, Yuathyb revealed the way down to the Malachite Fortress. Even there, usually separated from the party, he pursued his own agenda, but his goals, by then, were mostly in agreement with the PCs. Finally, at the end, he gave them his Key before departing into the Underdark forever, for he would not need it there and the party had treated him well.
Do you think 6 1st level pcs will be able to hold a candle to the Malachite Hold?
Thoughts anyone?
You know your party better than we do, but I will say that the MF can destroy 2nd level characters. It really depends on how smart your PCs are and how well they roll - Kazmojen will be difficult, especially if they haven't found out that he's a half-troll.
A great deal of information is provided to them by having them go through Jzadirune. If you think they will find the secret door, simply remove it - the enemies certainly don't need it to accomplish their goals.
Do you think 6 1rst level pcs will be able to hold a candle to the Malachite Hold?
Thoughts anyone?Bard of Midwood
It may be tough--there are a lot of hobs in there. And Kaz and Prickles are not pushovers. My guys were third level when they met them; they handled Kaz okay, but Prickles spanked two of them pretty badly. I set the Search DC for the secret door 1 higher than the party's rogue could find, and hoped he didn't roll a 20. (He didn't...they didn't even search there--Yuathyb ended up telling them about it.)
--Fang
Of course, there will be new surprises at the elevator when they return.
*evil grin* Oh, yes. Can you say "ambush?"