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What's above ground?

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I plan on sending my players through Maure Castle sometime in the new future (they may get to it by the spring next year :) and I was wondering what other DMs have done with what's above ground. (I know my players are going to want to investigate that area first.) Did you simply say its a ruined castle with nothing interesting? Or have you built up the ruins above ground and populated them? The image in Dungeon 112 shows a very "active" castle (lights on, people coming and going) but I always thought it was an image of what was going on back in the past. Any ideas on what's going on up there?

Greg

I do not have my book handy to recall if there is anything specific above ground, but I had two tribes of Gnolls, that had set up camp within the area, poseing as bandits, but awiting the return of there prophet.

You'll know who I am talking about in the module, but basically thats what the group did, I played this back in the time it came out. So thats what I did with it.

No idea what it "offical" but... the lower adventure levels are specialized levels of the castle. Above these would be the normal levels of the castle - living quarters, servant quarters, great hall, etc. For my campaign, the the upper levels (or normal castle) held a wizard school.

The inside back cover of the 2nd edition accessory "The Adventure Begins" has a full page map of the "Maure Castle Environs" at surface level.

That said from the credits it doesn't look like Rob Kuntz had any input into the said map.
bastrak wrote:
The inside back cover of the 2nd edition accessory "The Adventure Begins" has a full page map of the "Maure Castle Environs" at surface level.

Hey, I actually have that! Time to go rummage around in the old boxes...

bastrak wrote:
That said from the credits it doesn't look like Rob Kuntz had any input into the said map.

Not a problem for me, there. I wasn't expecting canon info, just wanted input on what others put up there. I had read somewhere (maybe on RJK's boards?) that he wrote an article for LGJ on what was at surface level but it was never published. I'd like to see that, but I'm not holding my breath.

Greg

I created a mostly collapsed upper level haunted by Harpies for use with Mord's adventure back in 2e
Contributor

Well, Erik Mona (as the LGJ editor, then) received the article and said that I should expand it into an adventure--heh. Little did we know what was in store from that comment.

It's entitled, "The Mysterious Maure". About 4-5m word, I believe, and details rumors (True and False), bits of Maure History, some interaction with D. of Urnst, nearby encapments (power groups, etc) and personages, and some legends, and more mystery of course.

Dont know if James would want to publish this, or maybe the DRAGON could do it as an addtition.

In either case, much of what is there will indeed be expanded upon if the series ever sees its way to a hard-bound compilation. At that point more new and expanded stuff would be added to the final to round it off.

Also see the OOP WotC release, "The Adventure Begins" by Roger Moore for a map and commentary on the area, and what little is offered in my original version, WG5.

RJK

My players are just now at the entrance to Maure Castle. I kinda glossed over the surface stuff and put them into the tunnel leading to the "unopenable doors".

I'd love to see more of "Uncle Rob's" stuff anytime anywhere :)
Dark Archive
Uncle wrote:

It's entitled, "The Mysterious Maure". About 4-5m word, I believe, and details rumors (True and False), bits of Maure History, some interaction with D. of Urnst, nearby encapments (power groups, etc) and personages, and some legends, and more mystery of course.

Dont know if James would want to publish this, or maybe the DRAGON could do it as an addtition.

In either case, much of what is there will indeed be expanded upon if the series ever sees its way to a hard-bound compilation. At that point more new and expanded stuff would be added to the final to round it off.

Let me be the first, but certainly not the last, to say that if this ever comes out I WILL BUY IT IN A HEARTBEAT!!!!!

old stone outhouse ran by a nighthag attendee

"number one"-1gp
"number 2"-2gp
"number 2" with paper 3gp
Uncle wrote:

Well, Erik Mona (as the LGJ editor, then) received the article and said that I should expand it into an adventure--heh. Little did we know what was in store from that comment.

It's entitled, "The Mysterious Maure". About 4-5m word, I believe, and details rumors (True and False), bits of Maure History, some interaction with D. of Urnst, nearby encapments (power groups, etc) and personages, and some legends, and more mystery of course.

Dont know if James would want to publish this, or maybe the DRAGON could do it as an addtition.

While I would dearly love to read this, I have a sneaking suspicion that my players will have said "bye" to MC long before I ever see it. After my current group of PCs is retired (including running through MC) we'll be moving on to Age of Worms or Savage Tide. They're currently in the final stages of RttToEE and I plan to have them run through MC looking for long-lost lore on Tharizdun. Haven't decided where to put it, but it will either be in the Chambers of Antiquities or in the Greater Halls (which I'm eagerly waiting to read...).

And since you've chimed in, I'd just like to say thanks, "Uncle", for Maure. I have an original copy of Mordenkainen's Fantastic Adventure and ran a group through it probably about 20 years ago or so. I'm really looking forward to running my current group through the new version.

Greg
Contributor

Greg said: "...I plan to have them run through MC looking for long-lost lore on Tharizdun."

That's a good placement, and for reasons now that I will not reveal... :)

Thanks for the kudos, Greg, I've had LOTS of fun with this and in fact just yesterday promised Janmes two more installments by March.

And there are other things looming in the future, so keep the listen checks active... ;)

RJK
Uncle wrote:

Greg said: "...I plan to have them run through MC looking for long-lost lore on Tharizdun."

That's a good placement, and for reasons now that I will not reveal... :)

Cool! Looking forward to reading the next installment(s).

Greg
Uncle wrote:


That's a good placement, and for reasons now that I will not reveal... :)

Really ….

I’d thrown in Tharizdun’s name as a stalking horse for my PCs, after one of them successfully scryed on the Id Core in an attempt to find a lost priest. After seeing only a weird-looking vortex and a man battling a Shield symbol, the PCs tried to figure out what was going on and got caught up in a literal vs. metaphorical discussion of visions.
[sblock]
“Oren tried to consider an interpretive meaning of the images Hesa described: Was the glowing shield not a Symbol, but a symbol? A divine pun? There were several deities worshipped in the Flanaess who used the shield as their holy device: the Hero-Goddess Daern, whose skill as an architect and designer of impenetrable defenses was without peer, and, of course, Mayaheine, the Shield Maiden of Pelor, brought to this plane by Father Sun to battle against evil.

Few deities employed a tornado as a symbol, however, though there were probably elemental spirits that could use such an emblem. Unless, Oren thought with a chill, the tornado was blowing down — a downward spiral. The meaning of such a symbol was known to but a few who walked in the light, for it spoke of the all-consumer, Tharizdun — whose very existence, if existence was the word, was kept secret until recently by all but the most learned of sages.

Suddenly, Oren thought, the literalist interpretation of Hesa’s vision seemed the cheerier one.”
[/sblock]

I figured they'd go nuts when they found Eli's notes on the old Temple of Big T. At the time, I thought I was kidding …

I'd love more info on the upper level and surrounds for Maure Castle. I've been looking at these Maure adventures with interest in running them for a group of players, but have been holding off until I can get some info for the surface.
Contributor
zoroaster100 wrote:
I'd love more info on the upper level and surrounds for Maure Castle. I've been looking at these Maure adventures with interest in running them for a group of players, but have been holding off until I can get some info for the surface.

Jeez, Zoraster, I would not want folks to miss out because of the entry point issue--they can still enter the levels, just not through the usual 1,2,3... approach.

And I can't speculate when such information will be made available, but I fear that it will be a while.

Maybe after reading the "Greater Halls" in 139 you might change your mind, as it's a hum-dinger! :)

RJK
Contributor
infomatic wrote:
Uncle wrote:


That's a good placement, and for reasons now that I will not reveal... :)

Really ….

I’d thrown in Tharizdun’s name as a stalking horse for my PCs, after one of them successfully scryed on the Id Core in an attempt to find a lost priest. After seeing only a weird-looking vortex and a man battling a Shield symbol, the PCs tried to figure out what was going on and got caught up in a literal vs. metaphorical discussion of visions.
[sblock]
“Oren tried to consider an interpretive meaning of the images Hesa described: Was the glowing shield not a Symbol, but a symbol? A divine pun? There were several deities worshipped in the Flanaess who used the shield as their holy device: the Hero-Goddess Daern, whose skill as an architect and designer of impenetrable defenses was without peer, and, of course, Mayaheine, the Shield Maiden of Pelor, brought to this plane by Father Sun to battle against evil.

Few deities employed a tornado as a symbol, however, though there were probably elemental spirits that could use such an emblem. Unless, Oren thought with a chill, the tornado was blowing down — a downward spiral. The meaning of such a symbol was known to but a few who walked in the light, for it spoke of the all-consumer, Tharizdun — whose very existence, if existence was the word, was kept secret until recently by all but the most learned of sages.

Suddenly, Oren thought, the literalist interpretation of Hesa’s vision seemed the cheerier one.”
[/sblock]

I figured they'd go nuts when they found Eli's notes on the old Temple of Big T. At the time, I thought I was kidding …

Great stuff there Infomatic. It seems that you like fiddling with what is, just like me, rather than just letting eveything stand as presented.

As for the Big-T, I'll reserve any commnets on that for later. But he is a fave of mine, we go back a longggg way so-to-speak... :)

RJK
Uncle wrote:

Greg said: "...I plan to have them run through MC looking for long-lost lore on Tharizdun."

That's a good placement, and for reasons now that I will not reveal... :)

Thanks for the kudos, Greg, I've had LOTS of fun with this and in fact just yesterday promised Janmes two more installments by March.

And there are other things looming in the future, so keep the listen checks active... ;)

RJK

YESSSSSSS. Thank you Lord, my prayers are answered. You heard it folks, TWO installments promised by March. We'll be anxiously waiting for them Uncle. Any chance you'll drop hints about which 2 levels (or more:) you'll be preparing over the next 6-7 months?

Contributor

Hi again, Allen! ;)

The "Family Crypts," for sure, as there are 2 entrances for it on the Statuary level; and then it is a toss up between the "Reliquary" and the "Outer Sanctum," but weighing more towards the Reliquary right now for the second one.

The Family Crypts will be a _nightmare_ for players... :)

RJK
Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

Okay, then why not The Family Crypts.

Uncle wrote:

Hi again, Allen! ;)

The "Family Crypts," for sure, as there are 2 entrances for it on the Statuary level; and then it is a toss up between the "Reliquary" and the "Outer Sanctum," but weighing more towards the Reliquary right now for the second one.

The Family Crypts will be a _nightmare_ for players... :)

RJK

I definitely want to run these adventures for my players at some point. Having more info about the surface and surrounds would make me more likely to run it as a full fledged campaign, but if that doesn't happen I may run one or more of the Maure adventures as one-shots.

I think only the ruins of an ancient castle are above-ground.

My take (and I think the approach of the original adventure) is that there is nothing of interest for adventurers powerful enough to enter the dungeon.

Ciao,

Jack
Contributor
Tatterdemalion wrote:

I think only the ruins of an ancient castle are above-ground.

My take (and I think the approach of the original adventure) is that there is nothing of interest for adventurers powerful enough to enter the dungeon.

Ciao,

Jack

Actually there is more to the Upper Grounds than you might suspect; and there are details regarding same as written in the unpublished article I reference above (Mys-Maure) and from my notes extant on it. As a pointer I will say only this--whatever "laid waste" to the Maure Family certainly did not confine its efforts to the lower dungeons.

Uncle wrote:

Hi again, Allen! ;)

The "Family Crypts," for sure, as there are 2 entrances for it on the Statuary level; and then it is a toss up between the "Reliquary" and the "Outer Sanctum," but weighing more towards the Reliquary right now for the second one.

The Family Crypts will be a _nightmare_ for players... :)

RJK

You rule Uncle. I'll prep a few extra tombstones for my players in preparation for them joining the Maure's in the family crypt. Permanently;)

Incidentally, any chance you'd care to hint at or divuldge the identity of 'Y'? Tharizdun related?
Contributor
Allen Stewart wrote:
Incidentally, any chance you'd care to hint at or divuldge the identity of 'Y'? Tharizdun related?

Hey Allen.

Well. Re-read the gallery descriptions in 139 about Dalt (there are two) VERY carefully. Mark the distinctions, make something from an apprarent mystery. That's all I will say, as it would be no fun for me otherwise to spill the beans while trying to lead you (and others) and James Jacobs along, though he has a MUCH stronger position to derive that answer from me if he wished to. ;)

My question is more along historical lines of the original campaign...were the areas described by Gygax in Wargames Digest *before* the Unopenable Doors part of Maure Castle? Quotes from issue 112:
"The pair of darkly cloaked wizards had already descended to the fourth level of the dungeons." and "In an earlier expedition some dozen levels down they had come upon a key and a few lines of verse." and lastly "Proceeding by a twisty route north and east, they now approached a widening of the passage. The crash of massive iron bars behind surprised neither, for this place was familiar
territory." If not in Maure Castle, where did these events take place?
-ef
Contributor
Erich Fischer wrote:

My question is more along historical lines of the original campaign...were the areas described by Gygax in Wargames Digest *before* the Unopenable Doors part of Maure Castle? Quotes from issue 112:

"The pair of darkly cloaked wizards had already descended to the fourth level of the dungeons." and "In an earlier expedition some dozen levels down they had come upon a key and a few lines of verse." and lastly "Proceeding by a twisty route north and east, they now approached a widening of the passage. The crash of massive iron bars behind surprised neither, for this place was familiar
territory." If not in Maure Castle, where did these events take place?
-ef

HI Erich--

If you have the orignal WG5 adventure, please read the intro I wrote for it which explains a lot in conjunction with his article aand my explanation to follow.

Gary wrote what his PCs experienced and no more. The WG5 adventure was recrafted for module length format as it occurred as an extension of my Castle El Raja Key Levels--thus his quotes of the preoceeding levels and later his quotes about the coral miniatures he found which depicted some other parts (which were part of the Lost City of the Elders, again my creation which he adventured in), was taken from source information not redesigned for the adventure and it would have made it too long (iei a whole Castle setting). Instead there is a way you may access the city amd the other Castle levels which are not present (the latter "way" had eight points, that is all I am saying), but these ideas set down in 1984 were never pursued for many critical reasons.

So what was offered from a historical perspective is a retooling of the part of the adventures(s) areas he had adventured in, as in the Original Greyhawk Campaign, as noted in my Annotated Bibliography notes, Castle El Raja Key was ostensibly located at the present day Maure Castle area. Why it is no longer there and where it went is a question for all, perhaps answered sooner than later...

--RJK

Ah, I see. Makes perfect sense. Off to dig up WG5 and read that intro. Thank you Uncle Rob!
-ef
PS - Keep up the great work...Castle Maure acts as a constant reminder as to why I started gaming in the first place.
"...answered sooner than later." As in August or September '07 sooner? :)
Contributor
Erich Fischer wrote:

Ah, I see. Makes perfect sense. Off to dig up WG5 and read that intro. Thank you Uncle Rob!

-ef
PS - Keep up the great work...Castle Maure acts as a constant reminder as to why I started gaming in the first place.
"...answered sooner than later." As in August or September '07 sooner? :)

Thanks for the kudos Erich. I try to keep to the spirit of the game as we created it and enjoyed it then. If you need any more clarifications (I was just waking up when I wrote the explanation, and in re-reading it is kind of hery-jerky sounding) just ask (I will try to post *after* having my coffee next time).

As to the last question, I have been sworn to silence... Don't you just hate secrets? ;) I know I do...

RJK

Being old school myself and first playing D&D via the Red Box I was going to update and reuse the ruined castle from the basic box set. My plan was to have my players run through this adventure at level 1 and discover the unopneable doors. Then a bunch of outdoor and completely unrelated adventures until 11ish before returning to the unopenable door to begin Maure Castle in earnest.

I basically intend on sprinkling info about Maure through the adventures that precede it. Once the heroes have made their mark they will be approached by all sorts of sponsors to discover the secrets of Maure Castle. I intend on using the various adventure hooks for each module as “mini quests” to get the players down there. I am kind of hoping the whole series goes into epic levels.

I was also toying with the idea of letting players use the gestalt character generation for fun. Maure is murderous and though I can have anything up to 7 players at one time (had 9 at one session!) I only consistently have 3. What gestalt level do you think a party could start Maure? 6? 7?

Thanks.

Hi all,

Being Tharizdun related to Maure Castle (my party is about to finish Kerzit Fane) as it seem to be, I began wondering about its origin. Could it be that Tharizdun is some kind of alien entity from the demiplane of the Lost City of the Elders? Just a thought...

Saludos!
The Exchange

I had a nearby village stripping the ruins for building stone. There was a reason the PC's pop by for a visit, think it was Green Smoke...a Gnome was brewing Ale from Green Slime...<Shudder>. The PC's were part of the Watch Callup so they went to investigate.

Village was burned down and the populace enslaved while they were gone.

Sounds intriguing, yellowdingo ;)
Dark Archive

Would it be to much of an assumption to belive that the upper levels and surrounding area of the castle environs would be of lower level than the previously published adventure ares?

My impression was that "at present" the upper (above-ground) levels had been destroyed by one of the Maure's main adversaries.

If so, perhaps these levels would be accessed via some sort of magic similar to that used to reach the Tower of the Soul Gem in the original C2: Ghost Tower of Inverness that allows explorers to travel back in time, and the present upper levels remain only as a ghostly image seen at night. Forgive my rambling...
Allen Stewart wrote:
If so, perhaps these levels would be accessed via some sort of magic similar to that used to reach the Tower of the Soul Gem in the original C2: Ghost Tower of Inverness that allows explorers to travel back in time, and the present upper levels remain only as a ghostly image seen at night. Forgive my rambling...

Forgiven... In fact, thanked! I have been looking for a reason for my players to avoid the upper levels somehow. (No free time, and don't think my party will wait for Rob's detailing of the upper levels.) This seems perfect! Possibly Nasht has found the means (or is about to). That would make it an interesting encounter. I'm thinking of using a 14th level Nasht - the blackgaurd from the DM2 - and some leveled ogres from the MMIV, plus sundry other monsters to make up his invading force (the one the above link says he's in the process of forming). I can then wait to bring them into play when Rob releases the upper level work and thus won't have to "fudge" it.

Great idea, Allen! Thanks!
Greg

I can certainly understand why T would be a popular deity... one sacrifice on those black altars giving a wish!!!
Thats some seriously good payback.

Wont take long to acquire some serious wealth.. like a kobold tribe of 200 -> 5M gp !!!
Contributor

All good speculation. :) More to follow after GENCON! Busy as a bee now.

See those fans here who are coming to GENCON, btw, don't be shy and search me out. I'll be next to a dark vault somewhere talking with Y... ;)

RJK
Uncle wrote:

I'll be next to a dark vault somewhere talking with Y... ;)

RJK

Do give him my fondest regards, won't you...

The Exchange
Allen Stewart wrote:

My impression was that "at present" the upper (above-ground) levels had been destroyed by one of the Maure's main adversaries.

If so, perhaps these levels would be accessed via some sort of magic similar to that used to reach the Tower of the Soul Gem in the original C2: Ghost Tower of Inverness that allows explorers to travel back in time, and the present upper levels remain only as a ghostly image seen at night. Forgive my rambling...

Neat...

Project one: Planning to reactivate the Surface level Castle as the Heart of a Rebuilt Town (quarrying the local Granite-for rebuild and export).

project two: A Stone Causeway linking the Town & Castle of Maure to the city of Greyhawk-plan to flood the fens on the north side and drain the south.
GregH wrote:
Allen Stewart wrote:


Forgiven... In fact, thanked!
Great idea, Allen! Thanks!
Greg

Anytime my friend...

Allen Stewart wrote:
GregH wrote:


Forgiven... In fact, thanked!
Great idea, Allen! Thanks!
Greg
Anytime my friend...

Actually used this, this week. As I suspected my group went straight for the upper ruins. I described it as a wispy shifting castle, that was never quite in-focus. I described the ground as over-grown rubble, whose exterior extent matched the walls of the spectral castle. In order to cover my a$$ I described the interior as shifting. So if/when Rob actually releases details of the upper grounds, I won't have actually committed to anything. :) It doesn't really matter, because what I'm using the castle for, I don't need the upper grounds, I just need the way in. And when one of the Claws of Yeenoghu came to let in some new recruits, he showed the party the way in toward the Unopenable Doors. They didn't follow them in - wanting to wait for the next day and full up on spells - so they are going to be in for a bit of a surprise when they realise they can't get through the doors, right away. But my bet is that they'll wait for a day and get some stone shapes and work their way around them.

Greg.

In case folks are interested, I recently posted scans of my descriptive mapping and actual maps from exploring Castle El Raja Key at the Lake Geneva Con back in June. While ERK and MC are not synonymous, the ERK material may give you some ideas for what to do with MC's upper works.

Linky: http://www.greyhawkonline.com/grodog/temp/El_Raja_Key_maps-grodog_at_LGGC3_ 2007-06-15.pdf

Allan.
Adventure Path Charter Subscriber
grodog wrote:
Linky: http://www.greyhawkonline.com/grodog/temp/El_Raja_Key_maps-grodog_at_LGGC3_ 2007-06-15.pdf

linky not worky :-(

messy
Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber
messy wrote:
grodog wrote:
Linky: http://www.greyhawkonline.com/grodog/temp/El_Raja_Key_maps-grodog_at_LGGC3_ 2007-06-15.pdf

linky not worky :-(

messy

For some reason when I copied and pasted it, extra characters where added. Make sure that the date is the same as it appears as written. Mine added a %20 which needed to be removed.

http://www.greyhawkonline.com/grodog/temp/El_Raja_Key_maps-grodog_at_LGGC3_ 2007-06-15.pdf

Hmmm, the link is definitely http://www.greyhawkonline.com/grodog/temp/El_Raja_Key_maps-grodog_at_LGGC3_ 2007-06-15.pdf without a %20 or any spaces at all in the filename.

Allan.
Adventure Path Charter Subscriber
grodog wrote:

Hmmm, the link is definitely http://www.greyhawkonline.com/grodog/temp/El_Raja_Key_maps-grodog_at_LGGC3_ 2007-06-15.pdf without a %20 or any spaces at all in the filename.

Allan.

got it :-) thanks, gro.

messy
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