Why is Demogorgon's mini going for 60.00 dollars(paizo store) when he can be purchase on e-bay for 19.99-I find some of the prices a bit over the top. Is it based off somekind of online price guide.
Why is Demogorgon's mini going for 60.00 dollars(paizo store) when he can be purchase on e-bay for 19.99-I find some of the prices a bit over the top. Is it based off somekind of online price guide.
Well what you have to remember is that's the price the makers of the product is asking. Thier pricing could be for alot of different reasons. The main things to remember about ebay (thank god for ebay) is that yes you can get it cheeper and that's good. BUT as often as happen ebay can be buyer beware.When ordering from the source you have a better guareented. Also ebay is hit and miss.What Orcus? It may or may not be on ebay.
CEO
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Why is Demogorgon's mini going for 60.00 dollars(paizo store) when he can be purchase on e-bay for 19.99-I find some of the prices a bit over the top. Is it based off somekind of online price guide.
Hi!
I just wanted to chime in with how I price the D&D and Star Wars miniatures. It is basically a demand driven market. What this means is that the prices are set by how much or how little the customers on paizo.com want to pay for a given miniature. We start off by setting the prices of the mini close to the prices of minis of similar nature from previous sets. Then, if everybody is buying all the minis at that price, I raise the price a little bit. If they continue to sell out, then I keep raising the price until I get to a price where they are selling about as fast as we are putting them into the system. The opposite goes for minis that aren't selling well. I cut the prices until people start buying that mini again.
So basically, if people are willing to pay $60 for a Demogorgon miniature, then that is what the price will be. If nobody is willing to pay that price, we will drop the price until we reach a price that people are willing to pay.
I hope this answers your question. Thanks!
-Lisa
So basically, if people are willing to pay $60 for a Demogorgon miniature, then that is what the price will be. If nobody is willing to pay that price, we will drop the price until we reach a price that people are willing to pay.-Lisa
The ol' pricing rule: Charge what the market will bear.
Or in this case, dire-bear.
RaaaaAAAr!
You gamester of Triskelion, you.
Best Star Trek ever. No woman on earth ever made aluminum foil look so good.
I'm noticing a pattern of fondness for sci-fi mixed with foil.
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It's the aluminum foil pyramid hat I wear, to keep the space beetles from reading my thoughts.
As regards mini's--they're a collector's item.
IF they make too many, "they're flooding the market, and messing up the collectors' price values."
IF they make too few, "they're gouging."
Nature of the beast, baby.
Here is the most up to date mini price guide collectors like myself use a guideline, Price Guide
It updates all the time and uses data from a dozen stores/websites (including Paizo) to give a low /medium/ high prices for figures in the current market. As you can see the $60 price for Aspect of Demogorgon (Archfiends) is 100% higher then the current high price ($30.00) for the figure with Paizo's own data in the equation. Apparently people who shop here are oblivious to actual prices of the fig or just don't seem to care because as stated above, it wouldn't be $60.00 unless someone was willing to pay it. $60.00 is outrageous for this fig ( I got one for $18 on ebay a couple months ago and it can routinely be bought for $15) but it's a sellers market with a captive audience. That fact they can sell at these inflated prices speaks to the loyalty of the Paizo fanbase, so Kudos for that! Impressive.
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It's the aluminum foil pyramid hat I wear, to keep the space beetles from reading my thoughts......
OOOOOooooo-kay.
FH
I knew it. You're working for them. Khepri symp! You're selling out the human race to the beetleheads.
$60 is a hold price. They're comfortable sitting on their inventory because the STAP will increase demand. You gotta put turnips on the table, man.
I'm confused. If it uses Paizo's data, and Paizo charges $60, why isn't the high price $60?
If you look at the figures prices you see numbers are based on (X)# of shops, OF the 4 they used for the fig in question, Paizo data obviously wasn't one of the shops selected. I doubt they could use Paizo data for all the figs as some of the prices are so high it would skew the whole market. I am not sure "how" it selects what data to use (it's automated). I would "think" the average would be the total of all shops, But you're right outside of the average price, It doesn't look like Paizo data was used for the fig.
Again this the data collectors and traders uses to value DDM minis. If Paizo can get $60..for a $25 fig(guide average) good for them. If you really care I can get more information on how it works.
I love Paizo, but if you want an alternative Demogorgon mini, try this one from Reaper...
http://www.reapermini.com/gallery/2700range/2716_ds
Nice looking, and should fit the bill.
I love Paizo, but if you want an alternative Demogorgon mini, try this one from Reaper...
Not that the two are mutually exclusive:
http://paizo.com/store/v5748btpy79qt.
<rant>IMHO D&D minis are not collector items, at least not to the huge population of Pen&Paper players. Using minis in game gives players just that much more immersion into the gaming session. Hell, even WOTC is pitching minis as a gaming suppliment first, both in their Core books and in the seperate D&D Miniatures hardcover. Then they do the most idiot thing they could (from a fan perspective), they package random minis in their box. We pay an arm and a leg for some of these minis not because they are collector pieces, but because we use them in game sessions. The only alternative we have is to purchase them in bulk on eBay. </rant>
I share in your frustration, Yad03.
When I was a lil Jade I'd do odd jobs to be able to afford snapping up those boxes of Grenadier and those bagged Ral Parthas in bulk. I'd sit in unventilated rooms and paint with Testors model paint because that's all I could find. 26 years later and I find myself owning at least four thousand lead pieces, many of which were bought on EBAY in lot sales and date back to mid seventies.
Although I've always used them in the game it is obvious that with that many owned I am more truly a collector than a user. That said, I like to see what I'm buying, and so these randomized packs smack more of baseball card collecting than what I am used to and can deal with. WOTC has figured out that enough people will go for the randomized collectable marketing ploy and so it behooves them to use this excitement tool to stimulate their market and get their price. Why have a customer buy something once when they can accidentally purchase it four times and have no legal recourse for product return? Kind of brilliant.
It may not be fair to the fan/consumer but it might have already proven itself to be a more profitable strategy. Don't know the numbers on this. Considering TSR need WOTC to buy and bail them out years back, perhaps the ends justify the means. Whatever keeps this engine a runnin', ya know?
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If you look at the figures prices you see numbers are based on (X)# of shops, OF the 4 they used for the fig in question, Paizo data obviously wasn't one of the shops selected. I doubt they could use Paizo data for all the figs as some of the prices are so high it would skew the whole market.
I'm confused. If it uses Paizo's data, and Paizo charges $60, why isn't the high price $60?
Ulch! No, that's now how statistics works! ;)
The data for Paizo is clearly just somewhat old. The price for Demo was $30 when they did the survey, but it has gone up (based on demand, according to the post from the CEO).
If you are concerned about high values "skewing" the numbers, pay close attention to the "median" and "standard deviation" columns instead of the average (which is a very sloppy statistic in almost any situation).
Average (or "mean") combined with standard deviation can tell you a lot about your data in terms of how it's distributed. Median tells you what a reasonable "central value" is, without respect to the distribution on the outer fringes.
An example:
Prices for Apples in 3 markets: $1, $2, $10
The average or mean is $6.50. The Median is $2. The standard deviation is about 4.6. You can say that as, the average is $6.50 +/- $4.60. Obviously, that's a huge variance, so you would probably look to the median to tell you more about what's going on. The fact that the median is so low tells you that you have lots of low values and some huge outliers.
You will find that Paizo's prices are very high, but they are trying to make their stock last, which is not typically what vendors are looking to do in most cases.
I'd pay about $5 for a unique D&D miniature (maybe $10 for something real cool).
Consequently, I don't own D&D miniatures.
I have bought bulk packs of Mage Knight pieces and they work well if your fighting a lot of humanoids. When I play a character that doesn't die immediately, I'll spend the $5 to buy an old fashioned metal mini and paint it. Then my character will die. :(
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I'd pay about $5 for a unique D&D miniature (maybe $10 for something real cool).
$5?!
Good gods, man, do you know how many minis you could get for $5?
Search for "(mini, minis, miniature, miniatures) common lot" on ebay under "Toys & Hobbies > Games > Role Playing > Fantasy > Dungeons & Dragons". You can BIN a *full set* of common minis from any of the recent sets for just a little over that right now, and if you want particular minis, you can often get them for less than 50 cents for a set of 2 or 3 (plus shipping, of course, which you'll pay for metal minis too unless you get them at a local hobby shop, and most vendors will let you consolidate shipping for multiple purchases).
Here's a nice link: cheap "buy it now" (BIN) minis
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I think the source of the problem for expensive rares is the fact that the rares are too rare to begin with. Take Underdark as an example. 60 figs in the set, 24 of them are rare. 40% of the set is made up of rares and you only get 1 per pack! It can easily take over 40 packs before you finish a set or get that rare fig that you want to use in next week's encounter, making practically impossible to finish a set by buying packs alone. By the time you do, you'll have hordes of commons, which isn't necessarily a bad thing for role-playing encounters if the commons are common creatures. Don't get me wrong, I love getting lots of kobolds and goblins, but what am I ever going to do with 20 abyssal maws? Here's a list of the D&D sets with the number of rares and fig totals.
Harbinger: 27/80 (34%)
Dragoneye: 20/60 (33%)
Archfiends: 20/60 (33%)
Giants of Legend: 29/72 (40%)
Aberrations: 23/60 (38%)
Deathknell: 24/60 (40%)
Angelfire: 24/60 (40%)
Underdark: 24/60 (40%)
War Drums: 23/60 (38%)
War of the Dragon Queen: 24/60 (40%)
I gave up a long time ago actually trying to finish a set, since I only have one person to trade with and I'm unwilling to pay $20 for a fig. I can understand why WOTC keeps the number of rares so high so as to sell more packs, but if they lowered the number of rares to 18 or 20, then maybe they would sell as much since it would actually be possible to finish a set (or come close) by buying two cases (24 packs). If they ever lower the number of rares and make sure that the common figs are useful ones in RPG's, then I'll buy twice the amount that I do now.
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I think the source of the problem for expensive rares is the fact that the rares are too rare to begin with. Take Underdark as an example. 60 figs in the set, 24 of them are rare. 40% of the set is made up of rares and you only get 1 per pack! It can easily take over 40 packs before you finish a set or get that rare fig that you want to use in next week's encounter
Once again, we have the problem with statistics.
Completing a set and getting the figure that you want are wildly different propositions.
First off, ignore the total number of minis. Buying a box gets you 1 rare out of 24. If you wanted rare number 12, you can buy boxes until you get it. That will take, on average, about 16 boxes.
Now, if you want to get a COMPLETE set, you would need to buy about 91 boxes to have a 50% chance at a complete set.
That's a HUGE difference.
Of course, all of that is moot, because the people selling sets on ebay are using economies of scale. They buy many hundreds of boxes, and make many complete sets to sell. Thus, they can charge a small premium over the price of 24 boxes and still make a profit.
I gave up a long time ago actually trying to finish a set, since I only have one person to trade with and I'm unwilling to pay $20 for a fig.
Why do you want to build a complete set? Is it just an obsessive (no offense, technical term) need to collect ALL of the thing, or do you actually need all 60 minis?
I can understand why WOTC keeps the number of rares so high so as to sell more packs, but if they lowered the number of rares to 18 or 20
Then there would be thousands of people complaining about these "tiny" sets that aren't worth buying because they're not collectable.
As someone else pointed out, the publisher of a collectable game can't be the good guy, because about half of their customers want exactly the opposite of what the other half of their customers want.
Edit: formatting
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By the way, in case anyone thinks that that link, in my earlier post is to minis that *I'm* selling, it's just a generic search for "buy it now" minis on ebay, sorted with lowest price first. I'm thinking of putting up some of my minis (to recoup purchase costs), but have not yet.
I do have to say that it's annoying that so many of the minis that I need to run Shackled city (at least chapter 4, which is what I'm doing now) are from early sets. Of course, SS is kind of old at this point, but I hope that there is some thought toward trying to build synergy between the hardcover AP books and the D&D minis sets in the future. For example (look away if you're playing in a Shackled City game) it would be nice of Wizards to have thrown a fiendish Umber Hulk into Underdark or War of the Dragon Queen. I know they're technincally a whole other company, but if Paizo asks, I'm sure they'd see the value in publishing what are sure to be high-demand minis.
Ulch! No, that's now how statistics works! ;)
Probably not, but that's how the price guide works, It uses a random # of shops to compile the data on each fig out of the pool of 12. The data I link to is recent and updated automatically and Paizo mini prices have been this high for quite some time. All I can say it the paizo data probably isn't used for rare figures (due to it being to high) in the price guide while it is for common and uncommon figs ( where the prices are more reasonable)
IF you scroll down you also will see recent Ebay sales are tracked seperately as well, (there you can really see how way over the top Paizo prices are from the general public)There seems to be serious lack of information here about the DDM minis game and it collectable nature, I doubt many are aware that it is the #2 money maker for WotC right behind Magic and ahead of their RPG books. If your interested in the game check out these links for more info Maxminis. and
Hordelings.
I usually get get a complete set (within a fig or two) from buying 3 cases ( 36 boosters) so 24 rares in a set is good number rarity and collectibility wise.
Back OT, there is no way around the fact the Paizo marks their DDM rares up 100% above the standard market value. As Lisa explained above, it seems that's the case because people are will to pay that, in order to buy those minis from Paizo. there it is, no excuses.
ajs we don't want to bring statistics in to this. People are much more comfortable with random anecdotes and something that happened to their friend's cousin's uncle. I think that your explanations are good. Some people will just believe what they want to believe though.
Based on what another poster has said, I don't think the price tracker website is necessarily a good indicator of price, especially if it is picking and choosing what prices to include in it's price analysis for particular minis.
Why is the price for some miniatures so high? Because some people are obviously willing to pay that amount. Lisa Stevens has clearly explained how she gets her prices. Paizo must be selling some minis at $60 otherwise the price would have come down by now. To claim otherwise is basically saying that Lisa is lying to us.
Unfortunately for those of you that are complaining about the price of minis I don't think that the situation will change. D&D minis are very profitable for Wizards in their current format. As a publically owned company they have to answer to shareholders when it comes to the bottom line. This means that some decisions will be made that aren't necessarily in line with what consumers want or think is fair.
And remember that no-one is forcing you to buy the minis. If they are too expensive, don't buy them. If enough people do this then WotC may rethink their strategy on them (and Paizo would lower the prices on their individual minis).
Olaf the Stout
I would GLADLY pay the current prices if only they would stop the stupid randomization. I know it's been said already in the thread, but this has been driving me nuts. I'm not twelve. I don't want to collect minis like baseball cards. I don't want to trade little Billy 5 orcs and 3 dire badgers for his beholder. I want to use them in my tabletop game and I want to know what I'm buying. The current not-so-subtle attempt to turn the minis into something like the card games really burns me, not least because it insults my intelligence. Like I don't KNOW they're trying to manipulate me into buying more and more until I get the ones I want (obviously I don't do this, but I'm sure lots of others do). Those plastic minis could be really handy and I would buy lots of them if only they would stop putting me in the "is this finally the pack with Pete Rose? I've just been dying to get a Pete Rose!" position that I haven't enjoyed since Little League.
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Why do you want to build a complete set? Is it just an obsessive (no offense, technical term) need to collect ALL of the thing, or do you actually need all 60 minis?
Since I only use the figs for role-playing encounters, I would enjoy having all the figs if it were possible. Just because I'm not planning on using a Tundra Scout next week doesn't mean I won't a year from now.
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Then there would be thousands of people complaining about these "tiny" sets that aren't worth buying because they're not collectable.
Take as an example Heroclix. A few sets ago the chances of a unique fig was one in every 6 packs. Now it's one in every 3. I, for one, have certainly been more inclined to purchase packs as a result. 40% of a set being solely rares, when you can only get one in a pack, is a little excessive. Even Magic: the Gathering didn't have that many rares in a set (at least when I was playing it years ago). And I don't know of anyone who complained that there weren't enough rares.
ajs we don't want to bring statistics in to this. People are much more comfortable with random anecdotes and something that happened to their friend's cousin's uncle.
Random anecdote hatah.
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Probably not, but that's how the price guide works, It uses a random # of shops to compile the data on each fig out of the pool of 12. The data I link to is recent and updated automatically and Paizo mini prices have been this high for quite some time.
Ulch! No, that's now how statistics works! ;)
The summary data you link to is from a few days ago, but it doesn't indicate when the Paizo data was last grabbed. Since Paizo is a slow site which is a pain to parse (not that I've tried... *whistle*), I would not be shocked if it had been a while since it was polled.
Applying Occam's Razor, we attempt to make the fewest new assumptions. To assume that the $30 max on Demo is because the price was $30 on Paizo when it was last polled is a fairly minimal assumption. To assume that the maintainer of the list has the statistical ethics (or lack thereof) to drop data that they don't like ... that's a whole other ball of wax, and would require us to assume things that are not at all kind. No one trusts statistics from some one who turns out to have massaged data to fit their expectations. It's like finding out your baby sitter takes off and goes to the local bar while "watching" your kids. You'll never use their services again.
I usually get get a complete set (within a fig or two) from buying 3 cases ( 36 boosters) so 24 rares in a set is good number rarity and collectibility wise.
Ah, statistics again...
That "fig or two" turns out to be a real pain in the butt. Why? Because you have less and less chance of getting a mini you DON'T have every time you get a new one. So, when you start, there's a 100% chance that the first box will have a rare that you don't have. On the second box, there's a 95.8% chance that you will get a new rare. Every time you get one, the chance that the next box has a mini you haven't seen drops. When you only need two more, there is an 8.3% chance that the next box will have one of them and that drops to 4.2% the moment you get the second-to-last! So the minute you get the second-to-last mini, you have, on average, about 16 boxes more to go through to get the last one. In all, you'll have to buy about 91 boxes to have a 50/50 chance of having a complete set.
Of course, statistics being what it is, you might get a complete set in your first 24 boxes, but the chance of that is in the ballpark of winning the lottery (about 1:2,149,632,061).
Then again, if you're willing to sell your minis, you can always sell the duplicate rares you don't want and pick up those last couple form someone else. This is the smart way to go if having a complete set is important to you... either that or just buy a complete set from a dealer that has done the work for you.
Good gods, man, do you know how many minis you could get for $5?
Are you serious?! I just assumed they were beyond my price range and never considered them...
I will certainly look into them. Thanks for the tip on the BIN!
To assume that the $30 max on Demo is because the price was $30 on Paizo when it was last polled is a fairly minimal assumption.
Well you know what they say about assumptions, the Paizo data isn't used for calculating rare prices due to the fact it so out of wack with the standard market .
That "fig or two" turns out to be a real pain in the butt. .
I hope you don't think anyone actually does that? People buy their boosters by the case and then trade or buy the missing figs on ebay, nobody with brain shops for there last two figs by buying individual boosters, Twice now I've gotten a full set with just two cases and a few randoms I've won or got thru a pre release event. I sell extras on ebay as well where there is a huge secondary market. Most current DDM rares(last 3 sets) can be had on ebay for between $8-$12 dollars, some of older rarer figs are in the $20 range..there are a few pieces that command crazy money $40+ range. But the most expensive Fig in DDM is Drizzit and he can readily be found for $100.00, but here at Paizo he is $200. Statistics, set rarity, or whatever the heck has been speculated here, arent a justification for Paizo's prices. It's a sellers market, they charge what they think they can get. it's not a big deal, if you don't like the price shop somewhere else. If you want a DDM Demogorgon for your Savage Tide AP, check ebay there are a dozen "buy it now" auctions in the 20-$30 price range today.
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Chief Technical Officer
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Now, if you want to get a COMPLETE set, you would need to buy about 91 boxes to have a 50% chance at a complete set.
I usually get get a complete set (within a fig or two) from buying 3 cases ( 36 boosters)
ajs, your mistake is that you're assuming true random distribution. However, cases are packed with the intention of a somewhat more even distribution of figures. While this certainly doesn't always happen, the number of duplicate rares you get in a case should nevertheless be significantly lower than a true random distribution would net.
This is why, if you're looking to build a set from boxes, you'll do the best if you buy cases. And ideally, you should buy those cases at the same time, so that you have the possibility of getting cases that were packed consecutively (which would get you the most even distribution of rares).
-Vic.
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But the most expensive Fig in DDM is Drizzit and he can readily be found for $100.00, but here at Paizo he is $200.
*does spit take*
really? - crap...
*poors out "good guy" tub, pulls out Drizz't figures... hides them.*
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CEO
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One thing I want to chime in with is that the price index for minis doesn't take into account that the stores in question actually have that mini in stock...only what the price would be if they did. Many times, online stores keep the old prices up on the site long after they have run out of the minis and the prices can be a year old or more. Heck, there are probably 50 or 60 minis on paizo.com that you couldn't buy right now because we are out of stock. I only change the price if we get it back in stock by opening more boosters or buying a collection. So just because a lower price is listed at another online store doesn't mean you can buy it for that price.
-Lisa
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Chief Technical Officer
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One thing I want to chime in with is that the price index for minis doesn't take into account that the stores in question actually have that mini in stock...only what the price would be if they did.
Actually, I spent some time looking into the price guide at the link above, and it is supposed to take into account whether the mini is in stock at each store. I checked one sample at all of the stores they reference, and confirmed that it did behave correctly, dropping the data from the shops that were out-of-stock.
-Vic.
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