I've noticed mentionings of elven paladins in several recent publications (such as in the little flavor quotes in many of the recent supplements). I like the concept, as paladin does a fair job of presenting a mystical warrior theme, something that I like to envision elves being good at. However, elves don't really have the abilities, both in adjustments and racial miscellaneous abilities, to complement the traditional "tank" role of the paladin- heavy armor and either a two-handed weapon or a shield and longsword, or a close variation thereof. As we all know, elves can make excellent light-wieght, mobile fighters, but aren't too good standing and hacking away in the front lines (compared to dwarves, half-orcs, and humans, the other common warrior races) due to their Con penalty. However, fighters give one the benefit of a vast selection of feats to help overcome this. The paladin class really seems to be much more tailored to a typical, heavily-armored knight archetype, something that elves just aren't as good at. Not to mention the inability to use their smite at range (with the exception of one feat whose name escapes me but allows for this option).
So, what would be a good build/tactic for elven paladins to employ to make them as good as their counterparts in other races? Or, are they simply inferior, despite the interesting nature of their concept?
In Races of the Wild, there is an option for substitution levels for elven paladins. Among other things, they loose their normal smite ability and gain the ability to use smite evil on ranged attacks, and ranged attacks only. This minor change encourages a completely different type of paladin, focusing on archery and perhaps lighter armor.
Alternatively, you could just go with the old strategy of throwing on a ton of self buffs and wading into combat.
It just occured to me, in fact, that you could use the elven paladin's substitution levels to create a completely new order of divine archers.
How about a mounted archer? Could take advantage of the special mount ability, but use the elf's strengths (+2 Dex) to advantage. Take a light warhorse and keep the armor for horse and rider light, use riding feats to substitute for metal plate (Mounted Combat, plus the one where you can use horse for cover bonus). Might take a couple of levels of fighter or ranger as preparation, representing experience the elf had before receiving the Paladin's call. Or substitution levels.
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So, what would be a good build/tactic for elven paladins to employ to make them as good as their counterparts in other races? Or, are they simply inferior, despite the interesting nature of their concept?
To me, a paladin is more of an ideal than combat. With that in mind, a paladin could be built quite a number of different ways.
I would like to see a paladin with two longswords. I would also like to see a paladin with a large emphasis in Cha and Wis -- their prowess lies in spellcasting and other abilities rather than brute force. Include some useful divine feats. Another thing to consider is the Knight Training feat from the Eberron Campaign Setting. It allows you to multiclass with paladin without penalty.
Just a few thoughts.
Human paladins will always hold an edge over elven paladins just because elves aren't meant to fit the classical paladin archetype. The difference is marginal, and from an rp perspective unimportant, but it's there. Elven flavor can be applied to a paladin just like it can be applied to any other class; just take a different path than the standard longsword-and-shield theme. I can imagine a chainmail-clad elf wielding two shortswords (2 weapon fighting, 2 weapon defense), weaving in and out of her enemies (dodge tree) as they are felled one by one in the name of Corellon Larethian...kind of like a certain blue-cloaked samurai of the Southern Kingdom with a personality disorder ;)
Again, not an 'optimal' build by a small margin but who cares?
I personally associate "Paladin" with holy rather than heavily armed/armored.
I also personally prefer lightly armored agile fighters to tanks.
I also tend to try to build well rounded characters as opposed to party role specific ones (occassionally to the chagrin of my fellow party members).
Bearing those things in mind - I think their is a lot of room for a cool elven paladins - though they could be better with tweaking the class.
I also like the idea of a poor paladin armed with nothing but a staff (maybe in service to a Ilmater (or a woodland divinity) - but holy - gives all of his treasure to aid the sick, etc.
In earlier versions of the game, Elves were prohibited from becoming Paladins, and perhaps with reason.
The classical image of the Paladin is the holy warrior armored and armed to the teeth for fighting infidels - close to a crusader or some of the Knights of the Round Table. Originally, the term denominated the followers of Charlemagne (Le Chanson de Roland).
So, this basis for the Paladin is probably not very suited to depict elven holy warriors without some heavy modification.
Perhaps they should gain special feats and abilities for fighting the enemies of "Elvendom", rather than generic against "Evil".
But this is rather well covered with the Ranger class, IMHO. The idea for a "Divine Archer" has some merit in this regard.
So, I´d rather go for a (probably modified) Ranger for an Elven Holy Warrior, rather than changing the Paladin and gaining something close to the Ranger in the end anyway.
On another note, in 2nd Ed., Priests of Corellon Larethian had skill with bow and sword anyway, thats pretty close to an elven holy warrior, I´d think.
Stefan
I would like to see a paladin with two longswords. I would also like to see a paladin with a large emphasis in Cha and Wis -- their prowess lies in spellcasting and other abilities rather than brute force. Include some useful divine feats... Just a few thoughts.
My wife and I ran into this little interesting scenario recently: she is a Paladin and I play a cleric, both are dedicated to Kelemvor (the just God of Death in FR). As a cleric, I am trying to become elegible for the Doomguild PrC, one of the requirements is I must match the God's alignment exactly (LN), while she is LG, obviously. I picked up the Book of Exalted Deeds to be a better priest. You know the drill - new feats, spells, and ways to screw over undead and evil creatures that have it coming to them. Well it turns out that I am ineligible for 90% of the stuff in the book because I am not "good". GAH! However, in looking up stuff for myself, I did find a whole slew of stuff divine feat-wise, and the whole book is literally full of paladin-y goodness.
In a campaign I ran paladins did a lot more than wade into combat in heavy armor or even ride in on their magic horses and lay about. One order (justice) was a combination of judge/lawyer/mediator (very WIS and CHA oriented), another (diligence) were engineers, another was for those from other orders who had died in service (Sacrifice), etc.
All of them knew how to fight and some of them did quite often. Even the engineers knew how to fortify a building or craft seige equipment, but they were more than just holy warriors.
Depending on how you take them, paladins can be a number of things.
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Elves do not make any better or worse paladins than anyone else. Having played an elven paladin (well, a blackguard, actually, but still...) elves can function just fine in full plate armor with a 2-handed weapon. Elves get a +2 to Dex, sure. What happens when you put an average stat (10) into Dex then? You get a 12! What Dex bonus does full plate allow? +1! Not every elf needs to be the paragon of Dexterity just because of a racial +2. An elf with 12 Dex is no stranger than a human with 10. As for the Con penalty, simply place a higher initial stat there (since you're not using your 'high' stat on Dex because you plan on being a plate-wearer) and soak up the penalty. Putting a 16 (or even an 18) in Con still gets you a 14 (or 16) which is more than ample for your typical plate-wearing war machine. Strength is the other issue for a heavy armor type and elves don't take a penalty there, so there's no reason for them to not be every bit as strong as their human counterparts. Add the elven immunity to sleep and their enchantment resistance into the mix, combined with the paladin fear immunity, and you've got a VERY tough holy warrior to shake off.
In summary, not every elf needs to have 14+ Dexterity to be considered 'normal.' In fact, as a racial standard, a 12 in that stat should be considered the norm. Rogues, rangers, and the like with 16, 18, 20 or more Dexterity are exemplars of their race just like humans with 16 and 18 Strength should be. I enjoyed my full-plate wearing elf very much, and with the elven penchant for crafting suits of mithril plate (at least in FR), Dexterity scores above 12 are even viable at the later levels.
While I like the points that have been made above, I also like the previously mentioned idea that a different "Paladin" concept might work well for Elves.
For example, a "Paladin" (actually Ranger) of the Elvish god gets spells granted by his god (druidic/wilderness flavored), Favored Enemy to protect their people, and a boon companion sent to aid them. The idea's growing on me...
In a campaign I ran paladins did a lot more than wade into combat in heavy armor or even ride in on their magic horses and lay about. One order (justice) was a combination of judge/lawyer/mediator (very WIS and CHA oriented), another (diligence) were engineers, another was for those from other orders who had died in service (Sacrifice), etc.
All of them knew how to fight and some of them did quite often. Even the engineers knew how to fortify a building or craft seige equipment, but they were more than just holy warriors.
Depending on how you take them, paladins can be a number of things.
I like that, it's cool. Sort of like the Jedi Consular and Guardian classes in the Star Wars RPG (which I bought but never played). They are similar, but one places more emphasis on combat and the other on wise negotiation.
Personally I've never liked paladins much anyway, I always thought you could create a better holy warrior with the exact balance between combat and dvine power that you want just by multiclassing fighter and cleric to varying degrees.
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another was for those from other orders who had died in service (Sacrifice), etc.
I always called that a graveyard in my campaign, but hey, I guess tombstones could form a paladin order. ;-)
(yeah, yeah, death is only slightly more permenant in D&D than it is in the Marvel universe, but I couldn't resist)
How about a mounted archer? Could take advantage of the special mount ability, but use the elf's strengths (+2 Dex) to advantage. Take a light warhorse and keep the armor for horse and rider light, use riding feats to substitute for metal plate (Mounted Combat, plus the one where you can use horse for cover bonus). Might take a couple of levels of fighter or ranger as preparation, representing experience the elf had before receiving the Paladin's call. Or substitution levels.
I'd also go with Mounted Archery, I don't see how you couldn't...
I think elven paladin's are fine conceptually. There is no reason an elf cannot be as devout as a human or any other race. Does it fit D&D's archtypes? Not really but hey, such things are not set in stone. Numerous published campaign's have taken elves and other races in new directions successfully. Dark Sun rises to the top as an example.
The question is what do you want to keep the same and what do you want to change...
For instance: Alignment. Paladin: LG. Typical Elf: CG.
Lawful Good elves would be rare and in most campaigns would not have a truly representative diety. Not that, I'd let that stop me if I wanted an elven paladin. A new minor diety would not be hard to come up with.
Of course, you could go with the ideal elven paladin being CG. In that case, I would perhaps make a couple changes. For instance: Instead of smite evil, smite law and so on.
Also, you could make new feat like Mind over Body from FR only instead of substitute Cha bonus to HP instead of Int. It could be called Divinity's Touch or something like that.
I don't think there are any game balance issues with this topic. I think its about concepts of elves and paladins. A little shake up of either isn't a bad thing. I think it brings a nice role-play aspect to an appropriate campaign.
I don't think there are any game balance issues with this topic. I think its about concepts of elves and paladins. A little shake up of either isn't a bad thing. I think it brings a nice role-play aspect to an appropriate campaign.
Thats probably the point: Its the concept I don´t like much, it goes in the same direction as, say, dwarven wizards, gnome berserkers or halfling monks - it does not fit my view of the race or class in question. I imagine paladins as zealous crusaders, and elves just don´t fit the bill for me. Dwarves are nonmagical in my games, gnomes somewhat playful, and halflings far too undisciplined to be monks (there could even be dietary restrictions - heavens forbid!). Of course, there will be some room for exceptions, but not a general rule.
If settings like Dark Sun redefine the races, fine, but a "standard" fantasy world lives from clichês like the sturdy dwarven fighter, the lithe elven archer, or the jolly halfling for a big part. Every exception to these rules should be well-founded in the background and should stay an exception.But your mileage may vary, as they say.
Stefan
Thats probably the point: Its the concept I don´t like much, it goes in the same direction as, say, dwarven wizards, gnome berserkers or halfling monks...But your mileage may vary, as they say.
Stefan
All valid points and there is nothing wrong with that stance. I was just answering Saern's original question, how would I go about making it happen. I have my opinion on it as well of course but answered in the spirit of supporting the idea and providing a fellow GM some idea seeds that may help make it happen. :-)
Lord Silky
I was just answering Saern's original question, how would I go about making it happen. I have my opinion on it as well of course but answered in the spirit of supporting the idea and providing a fellow GM some idea seeds that may help make it happen. :-)
Lord Silky
Err....
Yes, I probably wandered into Offtopicana a bit far...But I still would rather use the Ranger class if I wanted an Elven holy warrior :-))
Stefan
another was for those from other orders who had died in service (Sacrifice), etc.
I always called that a graveyard in my campaign, but hey, I guess tombstones could form a paladin order. ;-)
(yeah, yeah, death is only slightly more permenant in D&D than it is in the Marvel universe, but I couldn't resist)
LOL, I agree entirely. The sociological ramifications of the impermanence of death are pretty serious, and really haven't been taken into account very much.
One way I did (in that game) was the Order of Sacrifice. You had to die in a noble cause and leave enough of a body to come back. Even then it was a secret order within the paladins, you'd don your special nifty order of sacrifice outfit and show up at a paladin lodge meeting if you wanted to throw your weight around (anonymously, the outfit had a closed helm). The paladin character that became a member actually had to die twice to get in. The first time was drowning in his armor at 1st level. Not a good enough death to get the nod.
Other ways included making sure that it got into the history ["The king died at such and such battle and was returned to life the next day and took the battle back to his foes."] and having a lot of the people working for the temples be families in hock for the raise dead spell for a loved one. It seemed cruel for good churches to be handing out raise deads based on economic wherewithal instead of benevolence, but those spells are expensive. Someone should write an adventure at the panic that occurs when the diamond supply gets cut off and death becomes very very real until it is re-established.
Oh yeah, and EVERY family that could afford it had a potion of cure light wounds stashed somewhere in the house. A kinda first aid kit that can handle lethal wounds.
The question is what do you want to keep the same and what do you want to change...
For instance: Alignment. Paladin: LG. Typical Elf: CG.
Lawful Good elves would be rare and in most campaigns would not have a truly representative diety. Not that, I'd let that stop me if I wanted an elven paladin. A new minor diety would not be hard to come up with.
They already came up with one in Races of the Wild, Vandria Gilmadrith, goddess of grief, justice & vengeance and war. She's LN, but seems pretty paladin friendly.
Now that was actually on topic!
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Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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LOL, I agree entirely. The sociological ramifications of the impermanence of death are pretty serious, and really haven't been taken into account very much.One way I did (in that game) was the Order of Sacrifice. You had to die in a noble cause and leave enough of a body to come back. Even then it was a secret order within the paladins, you'd don your special nifty order of sacrifice outfit and show up at a paladin lodge meeting if you wanted to throw your weight around (anonymously, the outfit had a closed helm). The paladin character that became a member actually had to die twice to get in. The first time was drowning in his armor at 1st level. Not a good enough death to get the nod.
Other ways included making sure that it got into the history ["The king died at such and such battle and was returned to life the next day and took the battle back to his foes."] and having a lot of the people working for the temples be families in hock for the raise dead spell for a loved one. It seemed cruel for good churches to be handing out raise deads based on economic wherewithal instead of benevolence, but those spells are expensive. Someone should write an adventure at the panic that occurs when the diamond supply gets cut off and death becomes very very real until it is re-established.
Now that you describe it, the order sounds very cool. You should write it up for class acts.
I'm confused on the families in hock part. Are you saying that the person raised from the dead must become a paladin because the family is in hock? I don't quite get that route (though the idea of becoming a paladin after being raised has a lot to recommend itself).
LOL, I agree entirely. The sociological ramifications of the impermanence of death are pretty serious, and really haven't been taken into account very much.One way I did (in that game) was the Order of Sacrifice. You had to die in a noble cause and leave enough of a body to come back. Even then it was a secret order within the paladins, you'd don your special nifty order of sacrifice outfit and show up at a paladin lodge meeting if you wanted to throw your weight around (anonymously, the outfit had a closed helm). The paladin character that became a member actually had to die twice to get in. The first time was drowning in his armor at 1st level. Not a good enough death to get the nod.
Other ways included making sure that it got into the history ["The king died at such and such battle and was returned to life the next day and took the battle back to his foes."] and having a lot of the people working for the temples be families in hock for the raise dead spell for a loved one. It seemed cruel for good churches to be handing out raise deads based on economic wherewithal instead of benevolence, but those spells are expensive. Someone should write an adventure at the panic that occurs when the diamond supply gets cut off and death becomes very very real until it is re-established.
Now that you describe it, the order sounds very cool. You should write it up for class acts.
I'm confused on the families in hock part. Are you saying that the person raised from the dead must become a paladin because the family is in hock? I don't quite get that route (though the idea of becoming a paladin after being raised has a lot to recommend itself).
Thanks for the suggestion to write it up. Especially, since all my other submitted ideas were gutted by the change from alternate class to alternate class feature shift between being given the green light and submission of the draft to McArtor.
There were actually 4 orders, diligence were engineers, justice were traveling justices of the peace/mediators/advocates, sacrifice for the previously dead guys and two others. (Looks sheepish for forgetting his other two orders).
Sorry. I was not clear aboout the "in hock" thing. My trial advocacy profs are probably clenching their jaws.
It was a separate bit. If your loved one died, you had to make the decision to accept the death and go on or you had to race to get the body to the nearest 9th level cleric. Since the price for a raise dead is WAY beyond most people's means, if there were enough diamonds around, the temple would probably raise the dead person in question and then indenture everyone to the temple to pay off the debt.
Of course, even if you let them stay dead, you still needed to pay a cleric for the spells to keep the person from coming back as an undead. Those were lower level, so they were more often gratis, especially if the dead person was a paritioner in good standing.
The idea of a family "owing" the church is interesting - what if they couldn't make the payment, and the family was required to have a child become a member of the church to pay off their debt? Giving children to somebody else to learn a trade isn't unknown in our history, though there a lot of negative connotations about it.
Consider the idea of servitude to churches to pay off raising debts stolen. Thanks.
Now, about where I'm coming from with these elven paladins- my campaign world is very centric to the concept of demonic invasion, and the elves (as in many settings) once had a vast kingdom (actually, they were the last in a long succession of races before humans). They were originally immortal beings (scholars debate if they were fey or celestial in nature), which descended to the Material Plane to fight a multi-planar threat (the mind flayer empire), and in order to keep these beings from achieving power ever again, gave up their immortal purity (thus, the existence of lifespans and the possibility for very human vices, despite trying to cling to their heavenly ancestry). Considering the constant influx of demons and devils, I realized that the elves should have holy warriors to fight them. And, I realized the concept had already had passing mention in other recent books. Ta-da: my curiosity arose. So, yes, it is well-founded in world lore, and not just some aberrant "Ooh, wouldn't that be cool?" flight of fancy.
Now, as for the alignment thing: I really like the Greyhawk pantheon, but there are some amongst them that just don't do anything for me (Boccob, I'm looking at you!). I know Corellon is technically not just a Greyhawk god, but I don't particularly like the deity. I have shifted the typical elven alignment from CG to "any good" (presuming NG when the law/chaos bit doesn't matter). Seems to fit with my concept of the race more. I'm also getting rid of Corellon and replacing him with a small pantheon of elven deities (between 3 and 5, still in development). So the alignment thing isn't a problem either.
All this does now is give me more ammunition for creating several campaign-specific feats to accentuate elven paladins, such as one facilitating ranger/paladin crosses more... ah, the wheels are turning again. Thanks everyone!
Saern, thanks for letting us in on the details of your world.
Now the Elven Paladin makes much more sense.
I think you need a tailor-made class (or PrC) that counters the abilities of demons and devils. Smite evil is nice to have, sure, but think of defensive capabilites, like better saves, which the paladin already has, perhaps even spell resistance built upon the existing Elven resistances, especially against mind-influencing magic, and even damage resistance against evil creatures to offset the Con penalty. If you key these abilities against evil/extraplanar creatures specifically, it won´t be too unbalanced, I think.
Stefan
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Thanks for the suggestion to write it up. Especially, since all my other submitted ideas were gutted by the change from alternate class to alternate class feature shift between being given the green light and submission of the draft to McArtor.
There were actually 4 orders, diligence were engineers, justice were traveling justices of the peace/mediators/advocates, sacrifice for the previously dead guys and two others. (Looks sheepish for forgetting his other two orders).
Sorry. I was not clear aboout the "in hock" thing. My trial advocacy profs are probably clenching their jaws.
It was a separate bit. If your loved one died, you had to make the decision to accept the death and go on or you had to race to get the body to the nearest 9th level cleric. Since the price for a raise dead is WAY beyond most people's means, if there were enough diamonds around, the temple would probably raise the dead person in question and then indenture everyone to the temple to pay off the debt.
Of course, even if you let them stay dead, you still needed to pay a cleric for the spells to keep the person from coming back as an undead. Those were lower level, so they were more often gratis, especially if the dead person was a paritioner in good standing.
brilliant! especially the part about the "in debt to the church for the raise dead", rather than showing up, diamonds in hand and saying "please sir, may i have my wife?"
this would lead to all kinds of fun stuff, and has my head aflutter with jewelry-based economies and the vagaries of the diamond-mines/high-end-jewels trade.
debeers of DnD, anyone?
as far as "alternate paladins" consider these few examples. (one of my players is an ethicist, thus REALLY enjoys playing paladins, especially when they are slightly "wrong" for the role. 1/2 his characters end up being pallys of one kind or another)
Lando. monk/paladin/Xerth Cenobite (psionic monk-style class). highest stats were cha (18) and int (16), giving him 6 skill points per level minimum. maxed out diplomacy, ride, handle animal, and spread the remainder on his physical skills.
fought with longswords (yes, plural), generally by throwing them at his enemies.
ALWAYS started combat with an attempt to stop hostilities via diplomacy (at -10 of course), usually followed with "get shot at/spell cast at him"
strengths: wicked high saves, good speed, high AC (especially touch) at high levels.
weaknesses: not high ENOUGH ac, especially when dealing with bruiser melee types, low HP, not very perceptive.
greatest feat: managed to dodge/save against every single attack from a gnomish bard/mindbender intent on dominating/charming him.
Sir Karl. Karnnathi paladin of the Blood of Vol (normal alignment restrictions don't apply in Eberron, with regards to class/religion), Bone Knight.
routinely cavorts with the undead, is encased in bone-plated-armor, still LG. cares greatly about justice and goodness, strives to remain as LG as when he first became a paladin, despite working towards learning all he possibly can about undead.
is now taking cleric levels (Blood of Vol), and spontaneously inflicts/rebukes undead, while staying as good as possible...ie, giving to the poor, never killing if its avoidable, never starting a fight, caring for the sick and weak,
like i said, NOT your typical paladins, but they DO have the paladin (LG, too, none of the substitutions) class, and abide by the Code, alignment, etc.
just goes to show you, not every paladin is as gung-ho-smite-happy as all that!
-the hamster
I was hoping to avoid actually making a PrC. I'm trying to cut back their use and availability. I might just make a feat chain, which I much prefer. However, I'll look for more ideas (both on these boards and from my players... when I get a new group....) and see what comes.
Consider the idea of servitude to churches to pay off raising debts stolen. Thanks.
Now, about where I'm coming from with these elven paladins- my campaign world is very centric to the concept of demonic invasion, and the elves (as in many settings) once had a vast kingdom (actually, they were the last in a long succession of races before humans). They were originally immortal beings (scholars debate if they were fey or celestial in nature), which descended to the Material Plane to fight a multi-planar threat (the mind flayer empire), and in order to keep these beings from achieving power ever again, gave up their immortal purity (thus, the existence of lifespans and the possibility for very human vices, despite trying to cling to their heavenly ancestry). Considering the constant influx of demons and devils, I realized that the elves should have holy warriors to fight them. And, I realized the concept had already had passing mention in other recent books. Ta-da: my curiosity arose. So, yes, it is well-founded in world lore, and not just some aberrant "Ooh, wouldn't that be cool?" flight of fancy.
Now, as for the alignment thing: I really like the Greyhawk pantheon, but there are some amongst them that just don't do anything for me (Boccob, I'm looking at you!). I know Corellon is technically not just a Greyhawk god, but I don't particularly like the deity. I have shifted the typical elven alignment from CG to "any good" (presuming NG when the law/chaos bit doesn't matter). Seems to fit with my concept of the race more. I'm also getting rid of Corellon and replacing him with a small pantheon of elven deities (between 3 and 5, still in development). So the alignment thing isn't a problem either.
All this does now is give me more ammunition for creating several campaign-specific feats to accentuate elven paladins, such as one facilitating ranger/paladin crosses more... ah, the wheels are turning again. Thanks everyone!
How did this sacrifice keep the mind flayers in check? Does it still?
Were the paladins the linchpin in the elves forces? (Did early humans get to fight under elven paladin commanders? Is that where most paladins today come from?) Were their equivalent roles for CG and NG elves? Maybe CG infiltration paladin of freedom (from UA)/ranger types? Were their differences in paladins then and now? They were fighting mind flayers, they would probably need to beef up their abilities to withstanf mind blasts and brain eating? (For that matter how are the fiends and the mind-flayers related to one another?)
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Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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this would lead to all kinds of fun stuff, and has my head aflutter with jewelry-based economies and the vagaries of the diamond-mines/high-end-jewels trade.
The gem trade is always a huge issue in my campaigns because of their use in so many spells. For example, black onyx is illegal in most good kingdoms due to its use in the animation of undead. Coastal cities with heavy pearl trades have larger markets for magic items due to identify. Etc.
The idea of a family "owing" the church is interesting - what if they couldn't make the payment, and the family was required to have a child become a member of the church to pay off their debt? Giving children to somebody else to learn a trade isn't unknown in our history, though there a lot of negative connotations about it.
How it worked out usually depended on the alignment issues. a typical goodly church would usually take service freely offered. If more than one offered their services, the time would get split up. If they had special skills another discount. There was an expectation that the raised person would take up part of the burden if they could. If they didn't they would pretty much be considered pariah back home. (What an ungrateful child!)
Neutral churches could be quite different. The followers of the goddess of death and fate were pretty ruthless about it. They were typically unwilling to let the previously deceased take up the burden. In fact, if you went to them, you better not have been raised by the clergy of another god beforehand. They considered it an infringement on the portfolio of their deity and would take what they felt she was owed....
this would lead to all kinds of fun stuff, and has my head aflutter with jewelry-based economies and the vagaries of the diamond-mines/high-end-jewels trade.The gem trade is always a huge issue in my campaigns because of their use in so many spells. For example, black onyx is illegal in most good kingdoms due to its use in the animation of undead. Coastal cities with heavy pearl trades have larger markets for magic items due to identify. Etc.
I entirely agree. But when it comes to diamonds and their use in raising the dead. Imagine deBeers with control of who stayed dead. <Shudder> I imagine in the end few care about how many walls of force there are out there, but pretty much every rich and/or powerful person wants to have the diamonds there for when they need them. It's an insurance policy taken to the extreme.
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Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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I entirely agree. But when it comes to diamonds and their use in raising the dead. Imagine deBeers with control of who stayed dead. <Shudder> I imagine in the end few care about how many walls of force there are out there, but pretty much every rich and/or powerful person wants to have the diamonds there for when they need them. It's an insurance policy taken to the extreme.
Gives new meaning to the term blood diamond.
I tend to hand waive away the diamond/raise dead issue a little bit, largely because the unit of measuring the appropriate diamond (aka, gp) doesn't make any sense in that environment (plus, having raise dead be considered so common is a buzzkill for me).
The problem I find is as follows:
1. I start hoarding diamonds. I start with some cheap 1k diamonds.
2. Due to my hoarding (I'm really powerful, there aren't that many diamonds, blah blah), the price of diamonds increases.
3. My diamonds are now worth 10k! Woo-hoo, I have raise dead quality diamonds.
I'm probably being anal retentive, and the proper response is to approach the 10k value as a measurement of purity in some respect. The diamonds that are of high enough quality are sufficiently rare and sufficiently in demand that their price settles right around 10k.
Still, a very cool idea re: debeers. Makes them only marginally more evil than in the real world. ;-)
Questions about elves and paladins and mind flayers.
Well, I don't have exact stats and rules pinned down for how the elves restrained the mind flayers, but to answer your question briefly, the elven sacrifice both imprisoned them beneath the ground and restored much of the damage they delt to nature. They were later released by an evil offshoot of demon-worshipping elves (the drow) seeking to undo what their holy ancestors had done (the two races, drow and illithid, soon turned on each other and have no remaining alliance).
When the elves fought the mind flayers, they were still celestial beings, and thus didn't really have paladins, per se. Those came to being after the elves descended to mortality and sought to preserve their heritage and power. After becoming mortal, they were also vulnerable to weak emotions, such as greed, and thus felt a need for empire. Many savage races (most truly evil, some only evil in the eyes of the elves) were swept aside and the elven kingdoms established. During this time, the elven paladins played little part in history, save for when the demons became a threat again, at which point the holy warriors rose to the occassion.
Giants had vast empires in that time, as well, and used early humans a their primary source of slave labor. The elves liberated vast numbers of men and tought them of culture, trade, art, magic, and war, seeking both to weaken the giants' labor forces and gain allies for coming wars. So, yes, many early humans learned the ways of civilizations from the elves, including the profession of the paladin. The elves, of course, used a much more graceful style of combat than the human paladins, who simply slapped on their armor and charged into battle.
As the humans rose to prominence, they unwittingly released the largest force of fiends to date, subjecting the world to a thousand years of rule under evil beings. The demons and devils brought orcs and goblinoids, respectively, into the world. They were previously beings of immortal nature, like the elves, but the demons turned them to mortal slaves. During this time, elven paladins were crucial components of the resistance that eventually won out over the darkness, although elven wizards played a much larger role, and humans ended up playing the biggest role and gaining the most from the situation (a world where all the old power centers were destroyed or vastly weakened, leaving them to become the dominant race).
EDIT- Oh, and on the subject of CG elves vs. others: There really isn't much of an issue there, at all, as humans, even within the same culture, country, and even army, vary between lawful, neutral, and chaotic (and good and evil). Thus elves of varying outlooks were always considered equals, so long as those outlooks were Good (or at least not Evil).
Thanks for taking the interest!
Still, a very cool idea re: debeers. Makes them only marginally more evil than in the real world. ;-)
Interesting moral comparison. Is keeping people from returning from the dead more or less evil than making them work in conditions that kill them?
Still, a very cool idea re: debeers. Makes them only marginally more evil than in the real world. ;-)Interesting moral comparison. Is keeping people from returning from the dead more or less evil than making them work in conditions that kill them?
Depends on the sound of one tree falling on a half empty bear that spits in the woods.
It's a strange direction, but when you mentioned their celestial heritage, I immediately thought about the Aasimar racial class. With a little flavor text tweaking, it'd be a cool way to emphasize the celestial heritage of the elves-- perhaps after a few levels of Paladin they can take a "Celestial Paladin" (actually an Aasimar) class level. That'd give them a very different feel...
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The concept of people hoarding diamonds to be raised is complicated by the nature of the D&D afterlife. Someone who dies peacefully and wakes up in Celestia isn't likely to want to be raised (unless he's one of those adventurer-types with unfinished business...)
On the other hand, if he wakes up in the Gray Waste of Hades, he'll wish he'd bought more diamonds.
I'm not quite sure I understand what you are talking about, Delveg. Can you please elaborate more?
I'm not quite sure I understand what you are talking about, Delveg. Can you please elaborate more?
Sorry, I guess I dropped into shorthand. Here's a better version of what I was trying to say/do.
Because your elves have a celestial heritage, it would be cool to allow them to take something to reflect that. (Particularly for the Paladins, since their class emphasizes their commitment to "Pure Good", which harkens back to their heritage... even reaffirms it.)
Aasimar have a number of cool, celestial related abilities. Rather than trying to figure out a new way make your elvish paladins distinct but balanced, why not borrow an existing system?
At some point (maybe 4th or 5th level), allow the Paladins to be initiated into a "select society", where their commitment to justice and good opens the floodgates of their heritage, marking them as special-- and giving them the powers of their celestial anscestors. At that point, allow them to take "Celestial Paladin" as a substitution level, if they wish.
The "Celestial Paladin" class is cribbed directly from the Aasimar template. So, taking the level in "Celestial Paladin" would give:
Charisma +2, Wisdom +2, Daylight (once per day), Resistances (acid 5, cold 5, electricity 5), the Celestial language, darkvision 60', and change the type to Outsider (Native). It doesn't give a hit die or BAB increase, because it's a racial level/ECL adjustment-- but if you were really motivated, you could probably spread the abilties over multiple substitution levels instead.
I hope that's a lot more clear.
Yes, it is. Thank you for the clarification, as that is a pretty good idea.
The concept of people hoarding diamonds to be raised is complicated by the nature of the D&D afterlife. Someone who dies peacefully and wakes up in Celestia isn't likely to want to be raised (unless he's one of those adventurer-types with unfinished business...)
On the other hand, if he wakes up in the Gray Waste of Hades, he'll wish he'd bought more diamonds.
That depends on how you look at it. I would argue that it takes awhile to get from here to there. That is what the time limit in raise dead reflects. It's how long you have before the soul gets to his final reward. So the soul will be chosing between the world left behind and expected reward.
And I can guarentee that every king, prince, noble, heir or other important potentate that dies of anything other than old age gets the benefit of a raise dead. In addition, in a world where the option is known, who wouldn't try to retrieve a loved one from Nerull's clutches?
This is yet another great thread. While I love the idealized vision of elves and paladins, the world of high and low fantasy is so much more than this. For example, I can envision female elven diplomat paladins wearing kimono style dresses and wielding holy fan blades. Sort of like holy geishas (and I'm not talking about the often tawdry westernized stereotype of geishas either, since many geishas did not engage in sexual behavior for profit or anything else).
See what I mean? With the inclusion of the crusader class (BoNS) and the knight class (PH2), the sterotypical paladin can be questioned even further. Then, there are all the variant elven races. While a gray elf paladin (with a Str and Con penalty) would be at a disadvantage, a wild elf paladin would be a far superior fighting machine. Interesting, when you consider that from a societal persepective gray elf paladins would be a much more likely prospect (particularly a wizard/paladin or duskblade/paladin).
The game is too big and has too much variety to pigeonhole races. If the best authors don't do it why should gamers?
*cough-cough* kputnam, that was 3.5 discussion from before Pathfinder ever existed
