After a loooong hiatus from Dungeons and dragons,I've come back and started a campaign in a homespun world. My world is made and we're setting up the party, but have one problem.
The only one who would even consider playing a cleric hates the class. We used to play 2nd ed. and even back then, despite loving clerics, he hated the class without some serious modification.
His argument goes along the line of: "they're weak, they get few abilities compared to, say... druid, the spells are still so-so, and the domains don't add enough. All they are now is a walking healing wand, especially since all their spells inevitably get converted to heal. On top of that they get nothing for skill points. They're limited by their,god, the alignment, and their temple. I don't get it." (Yes, that is a direct quote.)
Just on looking the class over, I can't argue against it either. Even way back when, all our cleric players would quit or change characters. They still look a bit... thin. But as I've never run 3.5 I don't want to tweak too much before I see how things work out.
Has anyone else seen or run across this? Any ideas on how to fix or tweak things to make them fun to play? Any thoughts at all are appreciated.
After a loooong hiatus from Dungeons and dragons,I've come back and started a campaign in a homespun world. My world is made and we're setting up the party, but have one problem.
The only one who would even consider playing a cleric hates the class. We used to play 2nd ed. and even back then, despite loving clerics, he hated the class without some serious modification.
His argument goes along the line of: "they're weak, they get few abilities compared to, say... druid, the spells are still so-so, and the domains don't add enough. All they are now is a walking healing wand, especially since all their spells inevitably get converted to heal. On top of that they get nothing for skill points. They're limited by their,god, the alignment, and their temple. I don't get it." (Yes, that is a direct quote.)
Just on looking the class over, I can't argue against it either. Even way back when, all our cleric players would quit or change characters. They still look a bit... thin. But as I've never run 3.5 I don't want to tweak too much before I see how things work out.
Has anyone else seen or run across this? Any ideas on how to fix or tweak things to make them fun to play? Any thoughts at all are appreciated.
This may help...
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/cwc/20041125a
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/dd/20051007a
The cleric is actually rated the most powerful class in D&D by game designers. You judge!
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At first, let me tell you that i really, really like the Smiths-reference in the topic title...:)
Regarding the problem i've got the feeling that it isn't a good idea to argue a player into a class he just doesn't like.
If it is really weak or not doesn't seem to be the problem, the problem is that the player doesn't want to play one. He's joining the game for fun and playing a cleric doesn't seem to be fun to him. I'd try to solve the problem from this point up, because the players having fun and beeing able to run the characters they want to seem to me the basics of a sucessful campaign. Why is there a serious need for a cleric anyway? Is it just for the healing or do you attempt to play a campaign that just screams cleric like f.e. Age Of Worms?
If it is just for the healing, why not let him play a druid if he considers these more powerful? Sure, a campaign could be a little more dangerous without a cleric around, but i've only seen a handful of adventures that were nearly impossible to solve without a cleric. Playing without a cleric could be a challenge too, for both, players and DM.
Okay, if you need arguments for the cleric, then i'd show him that a cleric is a really diverse character. With all the abilities he has (divine magic, spontaneous healing, turning undead, domain powers), he has as pretty good BAB-progression, good saves and TP's. Okay, he doesn't get many skill points, but there're only a few skills that i'd think necessary for a cleric. He might look like a supporting character at first but the wide range of abilities could provide many many situations within the game where he can shine. If you've got a diverse pantheon to choose from, then there're many possible character concepts avaiable and i won't see this as a limitation.
Also, if you are looking for healing classes, but ones that feel a bit different than the cleric, if you are interested in expanding beyond the core books, the healer and the favored soul are a bit different than the cleric is, and both of them would still have the ability to heal/removed curses, diseases, poisons/raise dead. To get both of them, you would have to get the Miniatures Handbook, thought the favored soul is also detailed in Complete Divine.
If you want a class that is essentially like the wizard, but they use divine spells, you could introduce him to the archivist from Heroes of Horror. The bonus to this one is that the class is presented pretty much in total on WOTC's website, so you wouldn't have to buy any books.
Speaking of optional things, if you go to the Hypertext d20 website, they have an optional "cloistered cleric" class that is slightly less competent in combat but has more skill options, to reflect a cleric that is more scholarly.
I am surprised to find a group that has no one who enjoys playing a cleric. I am another new/old player who has a lot of experience with 1e and is now just getting into 3e (over last 6 months or so). I always found playing clerics to be more fun (and often a bit easier). You can slowly force the party over to praying and titheing your deity, which can be definitely bothersome to some characters. In lower-level campaigns you have to fight a bit more often than you want to, but after a few levels, you can practically orchestrate many scenarios. I would definitely agree with Absinth that forcing someone to play a role they don't want to is a bad idea. I have often been very flexible by waiting till the end of a new group startup and taking whatever the party needs and often been somewhat dissatisfied (e.g. playing a wizard when you would have rather been a Paladin).
Thanks for the links Twiceborn. I'm reading them over now, as well as sharing it with said player. And Absynth... I'm a huge fan and sometimes it slips out ;).
I'm not forcing him to play one. He's desperate to play one, but hates what's been done to the class. It could be simply too passive for him though. To me, I've never been a cleric player and the class looks boring (always has). But then again so does barb... (GO ROGUE!)
Ability wise they don't get too much, spells, domains, wearing armor, and turning undead. The variety of spells mentioned as a plus are all generaly healing spells or health related spells.
Any power they may weild is through roleplaying and not a class function in itself. But how heavy handed is a lawful good cleric going to be with his healing to his comrades and friends?
The archivist can be found here:
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20051007a&page=3
The cloistered cleric class can be found here:
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#cleri cVariantCloisteredCleric
Let me pimp Monte Cook's Arcana Evolved -- a very good variant ruleset that, among other things, allows all spellcasters to cast healing spells. Therefore, no cleric needed. (Personally, I think clerics are a great combination of melee and casting abilities and can be made interesting with just a little bit of imagination on the part of the player.)
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Ability wise they don't get too much, spells, domains, wearing armor, and turning undead. The variety of spells mentioned as a plus are all generaly healing spells or health related spells.Any power they may weild is through roleplaying and not a class function in itself. But how heavy handed is a lawful good cleric going to be with his healing to his comrades and friends?
um....hate to break it to you, but these statements are pretty much wrong.
to whit:
domains = 2 free powers (or feats) which can really drastically change the face of the game (travel domain = no web/entangle for you,)
spells = ALL THE DIVINE SPELLS. if you're playing core rules only, then there's not too many to choose from. but once you break into the supplemental rules, there's TONS of stuff you can pull off.
Heavy armor. sure, it's gonna slow you down. but you're ac is much better than your average wizard (or you have 2 extra spells/ day, since he just cast mage armor and Shield to get the same benefit as your full plate)
no spellbook. can't be stolen/destroyed. don't have to pay money for spells.
turning undead. 'nuff said, here, i think. except if you take the right domains (and extra turning, perhaps) you can turn elementals, plants, animals, oozes, vermin. pretty nice, i would think
2 good saves. sure, they are gonna have poor ref. saves. but that's it.
3/4 bab. well, you're as good a fighter as the rogue, bard, druid, aristocrat, and monk.
d8 hp. same as druid, monk, ranger
so, in the end, you end up with someone who can fight, wear armor, has a full caster progression, wears any kind of armor, carrys any (except tower) kind of shield, has decent HP, can turn AT LEAST undead, and heal the party (and himself.)
yep.
weak.
as far as "power through roleplaying, not a class function itself"?.
see above.
note: this is not intended as a personal attack, but probably a reaction to SOOOOO many "clerics are teh uber" or "clerics/druids are so broken" threads. not so much here, but on other sites.
namaste'
the hamster
You could also let him start with a level of Rogue (for all the skill pts) and then thru the story of the character, start worshipping a god of trickery or something.
Thanks for the archivist link, Knight. I actualy like the Divine casting Indianna Jones type and may try one someday. And thanks all for the responses.
Jebadiah- I just may look into that alternate rules. Sounds interesting for future campaigns.
Hamster- I've seen those threads too, unfortunately so has my friend. The problem with what you've said is that if the cleric is relegated to only healer role, no party will let him stand and fight no matter what his AC is, because you need him around to heal.
I should have clarified that those comments were in response to the article http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/cwc/20041125a. If you read how to play a "classy cleric" everything falls back to healing.
As well as the one listed http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/dd/20051007a where Mike Mearls says "The person playing the cleric can exert a lot of control over the party's decisions. For example, during a battle, the cleric moves away from the monsters and announces that if anyone wants healing, they have to move back to his position. The players must follow the cleric if they want their characters to survive." (thus my comment on power through RP, not ability, and the lawful good cleric bit)
Even after reading those articles, it's easy to see how they can be compared to healing wands, one dimensional characters. While I do think they have some mighty handy spells, which can be learned, if they are often gettting dropped for a healing spell, does it matter?
I have some of the expansion books as well, and am currently making my way through divine Handbook. I may just skip the prestige classes which tend to be... well food for several other threads I've seen around ;), and go right to spells and such.
Farear- First, he's not a powergamer. He isn't trying to design some munchkin character to rule the world. He's one of the best RPers I've played with and I've been playing for... over 25 years. (Has it been that long? We remember GammaWorld so I guess so...) To be honest, he doesn't want to play a dull character that is going to be one dimensional or simply stink. Can't blame him for that.
I do however agree with your other point that the class must be played in order for a balance and game mechanics to be fully realized. I did mention that while I have no issue tinkering with a class, I want to see it played out first to test the mechanics, balance compared to other classes and, more importantly,how it works in my world.
I knew this was the forum to ask this in,and I was right. Some of the others cater to the... munchkin set too much for my taste. You have all been great with the responses. Hope you don't mind me playing devil's advocate on this one.
Khezial Tahr,
Having played a number of clerics from ver 2 through to current, I reckon I've earned the right to comment. At the lower levels the cleric can be little more than a walking healing wand, BUT a mid levels and above there are very few things that cn stand in his/her way. Don't just look at the character feats and skills, a cleric can gain huge benefits from selected magic items (periapts of wisdom, cloaks of charisma etc). Cleric becomes healer, 2nd fighter, artillery support, diplomat and with certain domains, the 2nd trap finder. But as the DM don't force anyone to play a cleric or any other character for that matter.
And of course if the campaign allows some levity on the alignments or worshipped deities, one can make a cleric which frankly isn't that good at healing. How about a worshipper of Wee Jas?
In my group getting people to play clerics is no problem, most players enjoy them. With some nice choices of worshipped deities, domains, feats and flaws much variety can be achieved, not to mention some fascinating philosophical conflicts inside and outside the party. Lack of skill points is a problem though.
Not to mention the fact that playing a cleric justifies some of the more peculiar character concepts and behavior (let me tell about, say, one dwarf courtesan who gave really good and invigorating massages...it was like all your ailments had just gone away).
Of course casting heals during fights is that common in our group...most of the time the main purpose is to deal with the enemy as quickly and decisively as possible and then start looking who needs a heal.
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well, if the party is so hurting for divine healing, then yes, the cleric is going to be the "go-to-guy" to patch them up.
BUT, this allows for some significant control on the Cleric's part to change the party's tactics.
"ambush" attacks = less loss of life on the party's part
"area of effect" and "crowd control" spells get played up in the wizard's repoitoire
ranged weapons become worth their weight in plat.
also: get a wand of CLW, and later 2. (maybe some scrolls of Cure Moderate). hell, if you're so worried about not having non-healing spells, get Scribe Scroll, and just whip them out.
this way, you can always patch the saps back together, and still have your prepared spells to play with.
namaste'
the hamster
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.....A cleric, a fighter, and a wizard walk into a tavern...
Don't forget that if a cleric gets access to the War domain then he gets two bonus feats relating to his god's favorite weapon - Weapon Proficiency and Weapon Focus. That's two free feats. Combine that with something like a cleric of Kord, whose favored weapon is the greatsword (dmg 2d6), and you get a cleric who can easily serve as a secondary tank.
Don't forget that if a cleric gets access to the War domain then he gets two bonus feats relating to his god's favorite weapon - Weapon Proficiency and Weapon Focus. That's two free feats. Combine that with something like a cleric of Kord, whose favored weapon is the greatsword (dmg 2d6), and you get a cleric who can easily serve as a secondary tank.
That's so true... The cleric in my game is as much on the front line as the fighter. He has a wand of Cure Light Wounds to heal his buddies (the TEAM paid for it). Remember that in third edition rules, the cleric can cast healing spells spontaneously, so there's no need to memorize them. He serves mostly to "boost" the party with buffing spells and helps tremendously in combat. The fighter REALLY appreciate having "Bull's Strength" and/or a "Bear's Endurance" cast on him when they meet a boss.
I've also centered the stroy line around the cleric, so (since he's a GOOD cleric) he's the one who pushes the team forward to seek out and destroy the evil around them.
I say, take away the cleric and the group doesn't last three fights.
And, in my opinion, every character (race or class) is as great as the effort put into it by a player.
Ultradan
The cleric has also gotten a shot in the arm (like they needed one) with the advent of Divine Feats. This makes the turning ability very useful for times (or campaigns) when you won't see a lot of undead, and opens up a lot more options for clerics. It offers a lot of ways to beef up healing, but also to beef up armor, attack and damage, and other abilities.
Other than that, what clerics lack in class features I feel they make up for with variety, with the large number of domains and deities available to clerics. That, of course, can be expanded with homebrew deities, domains, powers, and domain spell lists.
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I've seen more clerics frontlining with the fighters now than ever in 2nd edition. They get great AC, awesome buff spells (divine might, the various ability buff spells, etc), and some wicked damage spells (flame strike, searing light, etc.). With some forward thinking a party can buy a wand for the cleric to use and some scrolls to avoid the cleric using up his spell slots for healing. With the proper domains, clerics can be down-right killer. Strength, War, Healing, all good domains for the warrior-priest. Improved turning makes them into undead army destroyers. If your player sees the cleric as a weak class that he doesn't wanna play then it is just that he doesn't want to play a cleric in general or he wants YOU to give him more powers if he takes the role "to beef up the weak class".
Cleric is one of the top 3 core classes in terms of power. I get the feeling that someone is trying to get a few power-ups from his DM.
I have a cleric in my party who is a very good secondary melee combatant and can stand back and offer party support, or drop divine whoop-ass comparable to a mage (with fewer offensive spells). Usually over the course of a crawl he covers each base at some point. The overall flexibility is astounding.
My Rogue/Fighter is envious of his might.
This class should not get incentives to be played. It is a VERY good class and will dust most other classes in a toe to toe.
FH
Don't forget to let the would-be cleric player take note that, at a certain point, a Cleric can boost HIMSELF just as much as others and become even MORE powerful than the fighter.
Bull's Strength, Magic Vestment, Magic Weapon, and Bless/Chant make for one disgustingly powerful front-line fighter who can STILL heal himself or anyone nearby, PLUS blast enemies with pillars of flame, sonic bursts and at the higher levels, Words... Playing a Martial Cleric is an incredible experience as I learned in a solo campaign once...
And so long as the DM throws in undead from time to time that the Cleric can turn (which is an act no one else can pull off), that ability is useful as well (and if not, there's already been mention of the Divine Feats, which one of my players uses regularly in my present tabletop game - Divine Might, plus Power Attack are a nice combo).
Syrinx
PS - In my games (and in a friend of mine's), we give the Cleric 3 pts/level for skills. That one point can allow you to do a little more and it adds up over time!
Also if the cleric isn't exactly what he is looking for maybe the Prestige Paladin from the Unearthed Arcane would be the weay to go. Sure you have to start as a cleric with a level of fighter, but by 7th level you are all Paladin but with a much better spell casting ability that can substitute just fine for a cleric. It might be worth looking at.
I wouldn't recommend giving the cleric 4 skill points because that opens the door for your other players to whine about their classes being underpowered, which is much easier to argue than the cleric. Really, the cleric is just fine the way it is and if your player doesn't think so he just needs to use his imagination a little bit to create an interesting cleric. One thing that I definately recommend though is don't use the turning rules in PHB, whether or not this player ends up as a cleric. At mid and high levels, undead HD begin to far exceed a cleric's power to affect them (because undead are generally 2-3 HD/CR); at epic levels turning becomes basically useless. You mentioned that you're reading thru the Complete Divine so check out Alternate Turning though I forget what chapter it's in. I like it because it allows a cleric to directly damage undead and because it's sooo much simpler than the PHB rules.
--TS
Another idea might be to let him have the extra skill points, but make him work for them--he has to have a reason for those extra skill points worked into the character background. You might also want to look at the Faith Feats in the Complete Divine. They can certainly make for some interesting roleplaying.
Good Luck!
--Fang
I am currently playing in a game where I have a cleric who just made 9th level (12 levels total -- he has taken 1 level in each of fighter, ranger, and justiciar) and I'm loving it. He's a cleric of St. Cuthbert with the Strength domain, the granted ability of which does indeed stack with his favorite new spell: righteous might. In the last combat, the party blasted an orc army's siege weapons at range for a little while; while the wizard was casting lightning bolt and such, my cleric let loose with flame strike and earth reaver (from the Spell Compendium). Next, when we challenged the orc leader, who was willing to take on anyone in one-on-one combat, it was my PC, not the paladin, who went up against him. Why? Righteous might! (The wizard's haste spell didn't hurt, of course.) It was great fun.
I'll agree with some other posters too -- when you add in all the new spells and domains from the Spell Compendium, and you include, especially, the cool feats in Complete Divine, I don't see how anyone could NOT get excited about all the possibilities for clerics. Sometimes I'm overwhelmed by the variety of spells to choose from. I'm finding that IF my character proactively casts enough buffing spells before combat, and enough ranged spells during combat, the party tends to achieve victory more efficiently, thus reducing the need for as much healing.
Sure, my PC probably still tends to have healer as his primary role, but, I use that all the time to reinforce his dedication to his god. "You are wounded? May your suffering be ended by the will of the Cudgel!" As often as my PC talks about him, you'd almost think St. Cuthbert was a recurring NPC in the game.
Finally, if it's necessary to perform healing during combat, I have discovered what I believe to be a fantastic spell: close wounds (again, Spell Compendium). It won't cure a LOT of damage, but it'll always stabilize someone who has reached negative hp, and usually make them conscious again. For me, though, the best thing about it is that you use it as an immediate action; this allows my PC to keep using a full attack action even while healing. It means I get to be the hero of the group for saving dying comrades' lives AND enjoy putting the beat-down on the monsters. Fun!
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Building on what I said earlier about the whole favored weapon/war domain thing - If you combine that with the optional gestalt character rules from Unearthed Arcanna, you can get a truly badass PC. Imagine a Fighter-Cleric of Heironeous for example. You would get access to the War Domain, which gives you Weapon Focus for free (with his favored weapon- long sword). You can use the Fighter Bonus feats to enhance the weapon use (With Power Attack, Weapon Specialization, etc.) and then use the regular character feats for anything else you might want (like Extra Turning, Improved Turning, or Divine feats).
And even if you don't use the Gestalt rules, you could give the character a few levels of fighter to get some bonus feats, then continue on in levels of cleric.
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After a loooong hiatus from Dungeons and dragons,I've come back and started a campaign in a homespun world. My world is made and we're setting up the party, but have one problem.
The only one who would even consider playing a cleric hates the class. We used to play 2nd ed. and even back then, despite loving clerics, he hated the class without some serious modification.
His argument goes along the line of: "they're weak, they get few abilities compared to, say... druid, the spells are still so-so, and the domains don't add enough. All they are now is a walking healing wand, especially since all their spells inevitably get converted to heal. On top of that they get nothing for skill points. They're limited by their,god, the alignment, and their temple. I don't get it." (Yes, that is a direct quote.)
Just on looking the class over, I can't argue against it either. Even way back when, all our cleric players would quit or change characters. They still look a bit... thin. But as I've never run 3.5 I don't want to tweak too much before I see how things work out.
Has anyone else seen or run across this? Any ideas on how to fix or tweak things to make them fun to play? Any thoughts at all are appreciated.
I've hated Clerics all my life. In fact, if you were to take a poll, i am sure that the majority hates to play Clerics. That being said, in 3.5, my brother makes a great argument that Clerics are even better, more rounded, and flexible that a straight fighter. ...If one knows how to make him/her right. That being said, have your Cleric hater make a 10th level fighter and a 10th level Cleric and ask him which would s/he rather play. You may find him/her surprised to realize that that Cleric isnt looking so bad after all. Yes, i realize that you are most likely starting the adventure with 1st level characters, but this way, your player can see the potential on paper and could use that template to guide his/her character to glory.
Just a note: when i did this with 3.5 rules, i found that i would much prefer to play a Cleric over a Fighter any day of the week. Of course, in the end, personal opinion will always win out.
Did i mention that i no longer hate Clerics?
Worth 2 cents? Probably not.
Thoth-Amon
Ahhhh...sweet blessed clerics, favored of the gods, their divine servitors on this mortal plane. My favorite class.
Clerics are the bomb, for all the reasons previously stated. Even if you are a healing-based cleric, it doesn't mean you can't get down with your bad self and dish out the damage. Don't forget your healing spells can do some outright nasty damage to undead (the negatively-powered ones, at any rate)!
Domains is where a lot of a cleric's flexibility comes in - if you want to be front line, Strength and War. Back seat, Healing. Flexibility? Magic domain! My personal favorites are Sun and Healing, but that's because I want to see the cursed undead disappear and explode in my god's holy light!
I'm a little unclear on the exact protest; underpowered doesn't seem right, it sounds more like underutilized. In our current game, the Cleric dominated spell casting at low level, due to the diversity of spells he gets. [We were only using the PHB, but there are some very handy spells if you're creative. Second level's pretty good-- darkness is fun. And summoned monsters are handy at every level.]
However, if it's flavor, I agree with you completely. We're not too fond of the "preacher style" Cleric. The Unearthed Arcana "general spellcaster" that can take any spell from the Cleric and Wizard lists would be a reasonable substitute, though you wind up being very similar to a sorcerer (with some healing on your lists). The other alternate classes mentioned above do fine with the healing). Or you can dismiss them altogether and just use Reserve Points and get around healing altogether. There's no need to have a "dedicated healter" if you design your adventures for it.
I once played a dwarven cleric up to level 18, with Strength and War Domains. If anyone tells you a cleric is a weak class, this character is walking proof of the opposite. Give him a few rounds of preparation, and he has: Bulls Strength, Righteous Might, Stoneskin, and Divine Might. All these are domain spells, and turn him into a battle tank. Distance foes ? Maximized flame strike is your friend. Retreat ? Take airwalk. Down on hitpoints ? Heal takes care of this. And so on, and thats just the PHB. Clerics are a powerful class.
And as supporting cast, they are good as well. In the campaign I DM, there is a PC druid and a NPC Cleric of Trithereon, with Protection and Strength as domains. If they can prepare the group for a fight with a few spells, the monk and half-orc Barbarian/Bard turn into nigh-unstoppable fighting machines, and can heal them from the second row during the fight.
The cleric is proficient with the longsword, so if he does not announce it, everybody takes him for a fighter, which can be helpful if you are a freedom fighter.
Stefan
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I've hated Clerics all my life. In fact, if you were to take a poll, i am sure that the majority hates to play Clerics.I don't think so now. The poll over on WotC site for which class has the most power ranked cleric as #1. Alot of love is out there for clerics.
FH
I agree. I guess i wasnt being specific. My bad. Most people remember the Cleric from 2nd edition. Now, Clerics are almost-to a point of being broken, and are incredibly fun to play. Truth be known, my 12th level Dwarf Cleric makes the Fighter types in the party envious.
Ahhh, it's nice being the hero in a party of egotists.
...patting oneself on the back...admiring oneself in the mirror...reflecting on his long list of accomplishments...and wondering how the world would survive without him and his kind.
Thoth-Amon
Great stuff, thanks to all. I see the advantages to them a bit clearer now. I guess they're just a bit too passive for him. They don't have the obvious "oomph" of some classes. From what you're all describing to me though what they do get meshes well not only within the class itself but with others as well.
I might even try one out myself soon, just to see. Although I like the idea of the Archivist a bit more. It may not be my first choice, but my curiosity will probably win out to try one.
After the paladin the cleric is my second favorite class so to me it is odd that someone dislikes the cleric as much as your friend. I think the real cool thing about the cleric besides the healing, ability to wear armor and cast spells, command/turn undead, is the fact that the class tends to over lap with other classes.
Take a priest of Mask in the FR. I think you are able to have thieving abilities as part of the class. Then there is a priest of Tempus who has a barbarian type of bend to it. Plus the addition of a cleric using a sword which would have been unheard of in 1E makes it a class that has the least amount of restrictions next to say a fighter.
Just my two cents.
My group has always had really good luck with clerics who sprinkle in another class. Two that come to mind are the Cleric/Rogue and the Cleric/Ranger. The rogue was focused on ranged attacks and charisma skills (trickery domain). The ranger was a selfish buffer who could make himslef all but unhittable. I never have trouble finding takers on the cleric.
The problem is that many people (including most in my group) have a "traditional" perspective of what clerics are for, and how to play them (the walking band-aid who can turn undead).
I currently have a 7th level cleric I use in the Red Hand of Doom. He is unquestionably a combat oriented cleric. I told the other players in the group, that they could forget me running around during a fight and healing them. If they live through it, I'll heal them afterwards. Why, you ask:
Cleric 7 with a 16 Strengtth; Base Atk +5, modified ATK +8; with Divine Favor ATK goes to +10; with Divine Power ATK goes to +15/10. Then add weapon focus from the war domain, and you have +16/+11 to HIT and +8 Damage (+11 if you use your weapon two-handed), and a heavy Flail gives you good damage and a 19-20 critical threat range. And that is with no magic weapon or magic weapon spell of any kind. A 7th level fighter with an 18 strength and weapon focus & specialization comes in at +12 to Hit without a magic weapon. With TWO measley spells, I am more powerful then any fighter in the party. And when I get done kicking tail, I heal myself first, and smile when the other players come begging. And I can still turn undead.
At high levels, fighters may catch up due to having numerous feats, but then you just cast Implosion, and start tallying experience points. At low to mid levsls, clerics are good things to have.
I wish to thank you all, especially Absinth, I am starting up in a new campaign and wanted to play a Paladin that probably would not really fit in the group. This thread has pushed me over to the cleric aspect. I get to play another cleric (but my first 3e cleric).
Thank you all.
Thom
I can't offer much up that hasn't been linked or mentioned already, but I can put forth the example of our group's cleric...
Personality and principles go along way, sure we're playing a version of D&D where Cleric Magic isn't DIVINE magic, and the deity for the cleric being played is thusly somewhat weaker in power...but the guy plays it so well.
here's the run down: he plays a neutral good (soon to be true neutral due to torturing some poor guy inventively)
He plans on multiclassing as a ROGUE (Trickery Domain), eventually anyway, if not, then okay he's a cleric.
He's fat.
Seriously, the character is obese, but still muscular. The guy probably weighs 300 lbs.
He's a lech...he frequents whore houses.
Did I mention his knack for torturing people? (quills under the fingernails, mace- which could be a poor weapon- heated up in a fire to scald the skin.)
Point is, despite the alignment violation...he's a fun character to play.
The point is to have fun with the character, whether its my elven fighter/ranger or my friend's cleric (possibly /rogue, we don't know yet).
I might also mention that he's the unofficial leader of our party, he rules the school in diplomacy, intimidation, and knowledge. (oddly enough his knowledge areas are vineyards and accounting).
He forged books for our semi-fake wine merchant cover, well enough that we'll probably turn a profit in a town with a terrible economy...of course it would be off the king's dime.
He checked the books for his church. And uses his gather information skill at whorehouses (Which isn't a bad place to start)
He also lead the gather information charge finding out about the thieves...of course that is more in the rogue multiclassing vein.
But he's a hell of a cleric, even with a freaking holy grail magic item (straight out of Indiana Jones), he does plenty of hands on heal checks and cure light wounds and he's only just now 3rd level. (leading the way in XP if that tells you anything about his leadership status).
Anyway, I just wanted to share my view on 3.5 Clerics...they don't have to be walking cure light wounds potions, they don't have to be stiff and play a secondary role.
Sure I'm the archer who takes out the enemies first, but he's the leader, we follow his lead. (As for skill points, use them wisely and you've got good skills)
Great stuff, thanks to all. I see the advantages to them a bit clearer now. I guess they're just a bit too passive for him. They don't have the obvious "oomph" of some classes. From what you're all describing to me though what they do get meshes well not only within the class itself but with others as well.
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I might even try one out myself soon, just to see. Although I like the idea of the Archivist a bit more. It may not be my first choice, but my curiosity will probably win out to try one.
One thing that I don't know if someone already mentioned.
The DMs role
A cleric has great powers provided the DM provides the player a chance to use them.
If you play a cleric in a campaign where healing potions are plentiful and you never encounter any undead the cleric will feel left out.
But if the DM restricts acess to healing poitons (ie. the players can't just go to town and buy 20 'cure serious wounds') and throws the occasional undead hoarde in the way, it becomes nice.
Plus poisonous creatures or creatures that drain ability scores or even levels. (Restoration anyone?)
Also Clerics don't have to have rest before preparing spells (though they can't replenish any they cast in the previous 8 hours).
Keep a party from getting rest through the night through creature harasment or even just plain old bad weather (if the party is out on the trail). The Wizard can't get their spells back, but the cleric prays for a bit and (although tired) still gets their spells.
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In short the DM needs to make sure that the Cleric (and all players) feel needed by the party. If the DM doesn't give the cleric a chance to shine other than being a walking medical kit, then it is quite likely the player will feel underappreciated.
I think its also worth pointing out that while the cleric is sometimes 'passive' a great deal of the time the cleric is not passive at all. Most combat rounds the cleric will be doing something that is not healing.
Furthermore healing is not necessarily boring. If there is a slavering monster over the crumpled form of the fighter then its the cleric that has to not only go toe to toe with the slavering monster but must also manage to heal and protect the fighter in the bargain. Some of the most exciting drama in a session can take place in just such a situation and its the cleric who is centre stage.
At a mere 750 gp the wand of cure light wounds is one of the first things a low level party should buy once they get their first few treasure hordes. As a side bonus this will mean that the cleric does not have to caste many healing spells outside of do or die situations in combat. Thus the cleric soon finds that their spells get used for more then just healing.
Finally I recommend a 'combat' cleric for a first time player. That war domain is great - make strength a half decent stat etc. 'Combat' Clerics are a pretty straightforward build and are always fun. They can fulfill a lot of roles so they will be called on to do a variety of different things during the course of an adventure.
I guess my final piece of advice is not to worry to much. The clerics a lot of fun in 3.5. Let the player play a few sessions with the build as is and if you both agree that its not whats desired then something else can be tried. I expect your cleric player will soon find that playing a cleric is actually a lot more fun then he expected. They get a lot of stage time in the game and stage time is the funnest time of all for a player.
The only one who would even consider playing a cleric hates the class. We used to play 2nd ed. and even back then, despite loving clerics, he hated the class without some serious modification.
Okay, that's not really a problem. Tell him to create a character he will actually enjoy playing, and manage without a Cleric. It's not that hard.
You might want to look at the "Reserve Hit Points" rules from Unearthed Arcana.
His argument goes along the line of: "they're weak, they get few abilities compared to, say... druid, the spells are still so-so, and the domains don't add enough. All they are now is a walking healing wand, especially since all their spells inevitably get converted to heal. On top of that they get nothing for skill points. They're limited by their,god, the alignment, and their temple. I don't get it." (Yes, that is a direct quote.)
He's mistaken. The Cleric (and/or the Druid) are the most powerful classes in the game. The Cleric is only a walking healing wand if the player chooses to play them that way. And, per the RAW, they are only limited by their alignment - and even then they always have at least three alignments open to them.
Has anyone else seen or run across this? Any ideas on how to fix or tweak things to make them fun to play? Any thoughts at all are appreciated.
I've seen it. Ultimately, I've found it is counter-productive to try to persuade a player to play a class he doesn't like. Better if he just plays something else.
In the end, even if a class is really powerful and good (which clerics are), if someone is dead set against them, they're not going to have fun playing them. They might not even realize the power. It doesn't matter if the cleric is able to out fight the fighter and still bring the magical whooping down on everyone else while wearing full plate. If the player really wants to be doing sneak attack damage or throwing around fireballs, he's always going to be thinking, "ya, that's good, but it's not great, not like sneak attack damage (or a fireball) would be." And every bad roll, every failed plan, will only go to reinforce his mindset that the class sucks, rather than proper attributing to simple bad luck.
Hopefully your player isn't that set against it. I find a good way to try and turn people's minds around is to either introduce an NPC which they adventure with and get to see him doing all this cool stuff, or an NPC enemy who lays the whoop-ass down on them and makes them say, "A cleric did that to us?"
In any event, this thread is old enough now I surmise the issue has been resolved one way or another. What were the results?
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There have always been a few misconceptions about the cleric class, the joyless heal bot being the most common.
The cleric is not:
a heal-bot
a common preacher
a preachy stick in the mud
The cleric is:
A soldier of the church, a person who has chosen to fight for their faith (as opposed to a paladin or favored soul which are people who are chosen)
A manifestation of the divine will, a gateway for their god's work in our realm
A well from which spring confidence and strangth, not just in the cleric, but in his allies
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There are problems with the cleric class, not the ones typically mentioned but they are there.
First, the cleric class doesn't always make sense with their choice of god. For example, a god of trickery and mystery with a servant running around in full plate.
Second, turning/rebuking again doesn't make sense with every god
So, if I were going to rewrite the class, I would break several of the abilities down, and add a few choices, similar to the ranger combat styles.
So instead of starting with heavy armor proficiency, shields, simple weapons, spont cast healing, and turning, etc. They would get light armor, and maybe something else automatically, and then their choice of god would dictate the rest.
God of thieves, extra skill points extra class skills, no medium or heavy armor proficiency.
God of travel, increased move speed
God of commerce, different extra class skills, and so on down the line
And instead of turn rebuke undead, a new ability, Divine Wrath. The mechanics are basically the same as turn undead, but instead of just undead, you pick an actual enemy of your god. Use the creatures list for ranger favored enemy, and iinclude rival faiths.
So god A, who hates god B, could provide his clerics with the power to overcome the servants and/or followers of god B, rathr than just arbitrarily everyone effecting undead.
meh, my 2 coppers has wandered off into a complete thread jacking, so back on topic.
Heck no, the cleric ain't a weak character, check this out for proof
Thanks again. But once more, I do not heavily use undead in my world. I have compensated by giving divine feats out at certain levels. Sorry, but armies of undead wandering through the world doesn't fit for me. And in discussing it with several others they agree.
And the biggest problem I see that is consistently NOT addressed is cleric at low levels. We started from level 1. He plays a cleric he loves (character wise), but is not thrilled with ability wise. I told him many times to play anything else, but the only need the party had (according to him) was cleric (he doesn't like wiz/sorc classes which they could have used as well). I DO NOT EVER force my players to play a character they do not like. In fact, unless they're excited to play it, I tell them to re-work or change it completely.
Because it is primarily a martial party, he is forced to hold back on his 2 spells a day for healing as nothing else seems as useful to him. Yes, he tried an attack spell that left an enemy with 1 HP in their first big encounter... but with the circumstances here he feels his character would save for healing.
Once again, I understand how powerful they can be, especially with prep time to boost up themselves and the party. I see how they can be very powerful and useful, but I agree with him that I too do not like how they set the class up. Too much carried over from old versions with little added or changed. Yeah, yeah I know... Domains... But they still seem to me to be a half hearted attempt to make them more god oriented. Love the idea, but the implementation leaves some to be desired.
As for clerics being warriors for their gods... What are Paladins then? How many holy warrior classes do you need?