Well, this officially rivals Magic of Incarnum for "Worst 3.5 supplement ever printed."
Fully sixty percent of the material can be generated using other sourcebooks and source materials.
8th level Drow Cleric? THIS deserves it's own statblock? I can make an 8th level drow cleric with the monster manual and the PHB.
Half-Fiend Gnoll Warlock? Uhm...will anyone actually USE this creature?
Drow Ninja???????
Drow NINJA??????
RABBI Ninja is more likely than Drow Ninja. Would someone please tell me how the philosophy of Ninjitsu emigrated to the Underdark? Don't Ninja have a code of conduct? Drow have NONE! :)
The shameless list of Tiamat spawn took up an excessive amount of space. I have only this to say. TIAMAT! Stop f**king! Stop f**king right now! It's a BIG waste of paper!
This book should be a monster manual. If I wanted to buy a module, I'd go out and buy it. I don't want encounter areas. I don't want pages devoted to maps. I want monsters and I want lots of them. THere could have been twice as many creatures in this book instead of all the pretty pictures.
Someone said "But, people want to just be able to throw encounters together and run them!" I was like "That's what DUNGEON is for. Paizo does a great job!"
If you're buying the monster manual, and you don't know how to set up encounters, try playing for a while before your DM. Or, better yet, if at first you don't succeed, try, try again.
The way these books are written now, you would think that the people playing the game got on the highway, hit the learning curve, and crashed into the retaining wall.
Thank you.
Well, I wasn't thrilled with the book, but some of it was useful. I like evil fey and elementals, so I may end up buying it. I think you may be a bit harsh in your assesement of those buying the book however. If it doesn't go over, that's fine, but I wouldn't disparage those that like the elements added to the book. They just aren't thing that I would have made a priority.
Of course, you have to remember that WOTC is trying to get another generation of players for this game. Thats why we have a basic game, player's kit, and the Dummies books. This book is something that a newer DM may love to help guide them along the path, and while its not my favorite format, if it keeps the hobby alive, I think I can handle it.
That having been said, there was some filler, and there are more useful ways to have "statted monsters" than the ones we got. A greater level spread (low level, mid level, high level, for example), and less bizarre (how many gnoll tribes have fiendish or half-fiend members?) creatures would have helped. And the Lolth touched template was just silly. If Lolth touches you, your stats go up . . . okay.
Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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I don't know why I bother but:
I like it. I'm not a noob. I didn't just fall off the pokemon wagon and discover D&D yesterday. The fact is, I don't need another exotic monster I will never use. I need leveled humanoids. I need them in an accessible format. I need monster lairs for when my players go off the beaten path. I hope the 4e MM follows this format instead of giving pages upon pages of monsters that I won't use unless someone brighter than me puts them into a decent module (Siege of the Spidereaters anyone?)
Maybe it should've been called Monsters and Lairs instead of MMIV, but just because you don't find it useful doesn't mean that other people don't. You can have your opinion w/o insuinuating that those who enjoy this product are less experienced, less intelligent, or otherwise beneath you.
Edit: Also, nearly 80% of the material contained in a campaign world supplement could be generated using the other core rules? Are they useless? Any idiot DM can come up with a campaign setting, I guess those products must be for people who can't handle real D&D too.
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It was definitely better thin its predecessors, but I do have one minor nitpick. In the information on tharizdun, he seems to have two different holy symbols. One (the spiral) is listed as the symbol of the Elder Elemental Eye, and the other one is described in his stats. Can one god have two holy symbols? If not, which one is right? I'm leaning toward the spiral because a) It's actually depicted, and b) it's the one used in The Styles.
Sebastian, you seem to be taking the anti-MMIV sentiments way too personally. Did you contribute to the book? If so congratulations, if not, well... I don't know.
Ah, well, point/counter point, right?
The shameless list of Tiamat spawn took up an excessive amount of space. I have only this to say. TIAMAT! Stop f**king! Stop f**king right now! It's a BIG waste of paper!
LOL
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Sebastian, you seem to be taking the anti-MMIV sentiments way too personally. Did you contribute to the book? If so congratulations, if not, well... I don't know.
Ah, well, point/counter point, right?
He's cool. He's a lawyer. That's what Terminators (oops) lawyers do.
I played a pickup game of basketball with a bunch of law students once, and never lost my wind because I could rest while everybody was arguing.I doubt he takes any of this stuff personally. And he's fun as hell to argue with. You really have to be on your toes, or he'll let you know it. Like that old Samurai that kept beating Tom Cruise up side the head with that bokken.
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I'm with Sebastian on this one. Of course, I've only been playing and DMing since 1976, so I probably need a bunch more experience.
Seriously, I strongly prefer intelligent opponents with believable societal structures to a collection of random creature parts assembled by a mad wizard and best illustrated with crayon. Not that I'm thinking specifically about the latest creature creation exercise at the WotC website, or anything.
8-)
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I just wonder at how much utility you get from the previously released monsters that have been statted up. I mean, you still have to tweak them, unless you specifically Need an "X" level gnoll ranger as presented in the MMIV. I think something like the DMG's npc matrices by class and level, or say a Rogues Gallery of matrices would be more useful to you guys (i.e. you, Sebastian and others) who want that type of thing. I'm trying to be somewhat constructive here, and if belligerent and bellicose, well hopefully only just a tad.
I'm just an unapologetic new monster junkie; there's no hope for me. So I bought the dang thing, I just wish there were more new beasties is all.
One of the things that I liked about Mysteries of the Moonsea is that it has an updated chart for NPC Red Wizards similar to the DMG chart.
I think a "Book of Lairs" kind of thing with encounter ideas, statted NPC Monsters, and charts like the DMG one with various more popular monsters would make a cool product.
Oh, and mobs.
I too am torn by the material in this book. While I want more monsters to throw at my party and love the ideas behind a new monster and the possibilities it presents, I am also grateful that the book has taken something of the path that Monte Cook has taken with his recent monster type books and included lairs and alternate atypical monsters. It's useful stuff.
Perhaps they could have put in another 20 pages of new monsters?
I second junior. Mob monsters!
I'm with Sebastian on this one. Of course, I've only been playing and DMing since 1976, so I probably need a bunch more experience.
Seriously, I strongly prefer intelligent opponents with believable societal structures to a collection of random creature parts assembled by a mad wizard and best illustrated with crayon. Not that I'm thinking specifically about the latest creature creation exercise at the WotC website, or anything.
8-)
:) i was born in '82 yet i feel old compared to the younger gaming crowd. So you wouldn't want to use a female Dire fiendish vampire halfdragon/halfkobold succubus/paladin servant of Tiamat would you? I'm glad the books tend to be only one or two template steps away but it can feel frustrating that a template creature or half-whatever really isn't origional or interesting. I'm with you guys, I would rather see more useful humanoids and creatures.
If by "disaster" you mean "a pretty cool book," then I'm inclined to agree.
If by "disaster" you mean "disaster," well, no, I have to disagree. I like it quite a bit.
And I started DMing D&D in 1982. Newbieness got nothin' to do with it.
-The Gneech
I was thinking about mobs, and then it hit me. Why haven't stirges been converted into a swarm monster? You could have the normal stirge entry, but also the stirge swarm entry. Now there's a thought.
Drow Ninja???????
Drow NINJA??????
Drow Ninja! Heh, they've infiltrated the DMG2! Oh noes!!
I was thinking about mobs, and then it hit me. Why haven't stirges been converted into a swarm monster? You could have the normal stirge entry, but also the stirge swarm entry. Now there's a thought.
you aren't the only one with that thought. I've been working around the problem for a while, and I've decided that it would be a particularly lethal opponent... dealing low ammounts of real damage but a log of CON damage per round...
At some point I'll do a full write-up on my idea, so for now it remains in the ether...
I'm of two minds. On one hand I agree wholeheartedly with the original poster. I love lots of monsters, gobs of monsters. I like the common ones. I like the exotic ones. I want a monster manual that drips with cool monsters.
Now the thing is I hate dungeons and maps and modules and all that stuff. I wish they'd put that stuff in its own book and keep it outta' my monster manuals. I'm also not a fan of the super specific god-progeny type stuff. I don't really need the leveled creatures either.
BUT on the other hand, I love monster manuals. If there were twenty of them I'd own all twenty. They're the heart and lifeblood of the D&D game for me. That said, I can tolerate the authors messing around with the format a bit and am more than willing to support the products they put out and grumble through some of the weird editorial content if that means the products will be successful and there will be more of them.
That said I wish they would go back to the way they did the third one and focus less on plug and play module junk I hate and give me more tie ins of how the monsters fit into the official campaign settings so I know how to use them. That'd be my preference.
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Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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I just wonder at how much utility you get from the previously released monsters that have been statted up. I mean, you still have to tweak them, unless you specifically Need an "X" level gnoll ranger as presented in the MMIV. I think something like the DMG's npc matrices by class and level, or say a Rogues Gallery of matrices would be more useful to you guys (i.e. you, Sebastian and others) who want that type of thing. I'm trying to be somewhat constructive here, and if belligerent and bellicose, well hopefully only just a tad.
I think something like that is theoretically cool, but for the most part the DMG provides that function. Having a leveled creature (and in particular, a leveled creature in a non-core class or multi-classed) provides more of a ready to run creature.
I'm not particularly in love with the MMIV and I'm happy to debate its pros and cons. What I won't do is tolerate the suggestion that because I do like it I am a noob, or that WotC is somehow dumbing down their material for my benefit. I find that insulting.
If you can't tell the difference between an argument as to the substance of the MMIV (e.g., it doesn't have enough monsters, or having leveled up monsters isn't worth the money to me when I can do it myself) and an argument as to the type of person who buys it (e.g., someone who is so new to the game they can't level up monsters or someone dumb enough to be tricked by a shoddy product pushed out the door by greedy old WotC), I'm not sure what else I can do help distinguish those concepts. You have a right to an opinion, I'm happy to debate the foundations of that opinion, but don't insult me.
Like the gent above, (Grimcleaver) I am a monster junkie, but unlike him, I am also a map fanatic.
That said, I have more monsters and maps than I will ever use in the games I run.
However, I still feel compelled to check out more and more of both, so this book will probably be a decent buy for me.
I am not one for the template/monster (fiendish whatzits) aspect of things, nor the god-infused creatures, but I'll keep an open mind.
Wow . . . it took me a while to realize it, but I guess I'm the bastard everyone is berating for calling them a "noob" since no one else mentioned starting players and the content of the book. Now that I realize that, I guess all I can say is that I didn't say that the book would only appeal to new players, nor that adding sample encounters and adventure ideas would only appeal to new players, or that there is something wrong with players that have been playing forever liking to have that content as well.
What I said is that such material is useful to someone that has never played the game before, that hasn't seen a ton of adventures in multiple editions, and that doesn't quite know where to start.
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Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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Wow . . . it took me a while to realize it, but I guess I'm the bastard everyone is berating for calling them a "noob" since no one else mentioned starting players and the content of the book. Now that I realize that, I guess all I can say is that I didn't say that the book would only appeal to new players, nor that adding sample encounters and adventure ideas would only appeal to new players, or that there is something wrong with players that have been playing forever liking to have that content as well.
What I said is that such material is useful to someone that has never played the game before, that hasn't seen a ton of adventures in multiple editions, and that doesn't quite know where to start.
No, it's mostly the OP. At first, I read your post like that, but then I realized that you didn't mean any harm or foul. I read your post to say that if it is noob oriented, you were okay with that because noobs are necessary. I generally agree.
Sorry, that was the intent of my original post. I appologize if I wasn't clear, or if I took it badly when I realized that I might not have been understood.
As an experienced DM (from back in '83 to today) and a genrally busy person, I for one can use quick encounters, decent lairs, and statted-up creatures.
Would I want a book of that material? Sure.
Would I call it a Monster Manual? No.
And that has already been said by others above.
Someone above also said (to the effect) that a DM like me can use Dungeon magazine.
Sure, that is why I get every issue.
And I can get tons of like material on-line, too.
But can a DM ever have enough of those things?
Maybe so, but I'll still enjoy checking out MM IV. Will probably get some good use from it, too.
In the information on tharizdun, he seems to have two different holy symbols. One (the spiral) is listed as the symbol of the Elder Elemental Eye, and the other one is described in his stats. Can one god have two holy symbols? If not, which one is right? I'm leaning toward the spiral because a) It's actually depicted, and b) it's the one used in The Styles.
This appears to be a fairly significant mixup error in MMIV. The spiral symbol marked as a symbol of the Elder Elemental Eye is in fact the normal symbol of Tharizdun. The triangle with inverted Y within symbol described in the text is the symbol of the Elder Elemental Eye aka Elder Elemental God and has been since the G1-3 modules. The front of Tharizdun aspect only appeared recently in Return to the Temple of Elemental Evil.
I was thinking about mobs, and then it hit me. Why haven't stirges been converted into a swarm monster? You could have the normal stirge entry, but also the stirge swarm entry. Now there's a thought.
Isn't there a swarm template in one of the books?
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:) i was born in '82 yet i feel old compared to the younger gaming crowd. So you wouldn't want to use a female Dire fiendish vampire halfdragon/halfkobold succubus/paladin servant of Tiamat would you?
That's about an ECL 14 with one HD, right? That should work. Well, unless there's something scary like caltrops around. I understand that the reason there are other dimensions is to allow more space for "half" templates. Two halves is so limiting.
8-)
I think providing interesting (and at least marginally sane) examples of template use is pretty useful. Even if you don't want exactly the version shown, good examples can provide a spark of an idea for a different use of the same template.
My opinion of the book it totally mixed. I'll start with the downsides
1-maps are only good if you can describe a large area (like a map of a state, province, or country), or if they are to miniature scale. That's the only reason the fantastic locations series have been selling. The adventures are junk, but you can roleplay on the maps. unless you want to play over your mmIV with little scraps of paper, it's just not useful.
2-the book was filled with lazyness. A large number of the monsters were advanced humanoids, taken from MM1, another large number were all knockoffs of chromatic dragons, and a further few were just elemental touched creatures. An earth minotaur! A fire Yuan-ti! An earth giant! To make matters even lazier, the drow NPCs were all directly stolen from d&D minis stat cards, so if I *really* needed those stats, I had them anyways.
3- What few really creative entries were there are in no way new to minis player. A good soul taken to the abyss, and tortured to become an exemplar of pain, an undead so bloated with blood that it spurts out with every slash, and a statue inhabited by ancient dwarven ancestors, all great all ideas, none of them surprises.
4- Nothing was done to address the problem of making drow actually challenging. With their hit to constitution, their +1CR, and the general fact that humanoids with class levels aren't as difficult as their CR indicates most of the time, drow are pathetic opponents. There was nothing special done to address the problem, so we instead have a level eight cleric with a hit to con as a CR 9 encounter.
-Sometimes they pack the entries full of junk. I don't need to know that a single cr6 creature is an el 6 encounter. I don't need to know that their weapon is an exotic weapon that the PCs could use if they took the feat. I don't need three pages on a single monster most of the time.
-This is the second monster manual in a row with no devils. The blood war is getting awfully lopsided.
-holes in the CR range. There are no monsters listed in the crs 20, 16, 13, and 14 slots.
The good:
1- No one has mentioned the new monster format. My favorite series of books by wizards are the monsters line, (fiendish codex, draconomicon, ect) and I love more information about monsters, and more on the ecology is excellent. Also, having run a monster in the new format, I can honestly say it's easier to run once you get the hang of it.
2- Some of the entries are just plain good. Clockwork menders, wrackspawn, all the demon entries, bloodhulks, justice archons,
3- Some of the humanoids *are* well done, and make a decent and ready to use encounter, if you so see fit. The gnolls in particular seemed to be well suited to actually challenging encounters, and the orc plague speaker was just plain cool.
4- I'm planning on trapping my low level PCs on an abyssal layer. This was just the book for that.
I was thinking about mobs, and then it hit me. Why haven't stirges been converted into a swarm monster? You could have the normal stirge entry, but also the stirge swarm entry. Now there's a thought.Isn't there a swarm template in one of the books?
It might be the DMG II, but I think I'm confusing it with the Mob template/type.
It might be the DMG II, but I think I'm confusing it with the Mob template/type.I was thinking about mobs, and then it hit me. Why haven't stirges been converted into a swarm monster? You could have the normal stirge entry, but also the stirge swarm entry. Now there's a thought.Isn't there a swarm template in one of the books?
The original swarm template appeared the Fiend Folio. It was then used in the 3.5 Monster Manual. I made my initial statement because the stirge is a perfect swarm creature (it's tiny and sometimes lives in large swarms) but has never been envisaged as a swarm creature. It would make stirges a good threat for higher level parties.
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I was thinking about mobs, and then it hit me. Why haven't stirges been converted into a swarm monster? You could have the normal stirge entry, but also the stirge swarm entry. Now there's a thought.you aren't the only one with that thought. I've been working around the problem for a while, and I've decided that it would be a particularly lethal opponent... dealing low ammounts of real damage but a log of CON damage per round...
At some point I'll do a full write-up on my idea, so for now it remains in the ether...
I think a great utility would be a template for swarms. That way you can create whatever swarm you need, be it stirges, vargouilles, zombies or miniature trolls or golems. That said, I have used the swarms listed in the MM 3.5 as basis for other forms of thorn by figuring out certain "qualities" the swarm like I want needs.
Also, seeing that this is Paizo's webboard, might I suggest you look into Dungeon 113. On page 75, it has information about mobs (of different sizes).
Last, seeing this is a post about MMIV, I'll add my two cents.
A. I agree with the concern about useless space. I've created so many orc/gnoll/kobold/drow/dwarf/human/elf/goblinoid/etc. barbarians, shaman, clerics, rangers, fighters, werebeats, etc. that I may never need to draw from a list again. Moreover, there's a great stat generator (www.hailscape.com) for building instant NPCs. (Granted, it's 3.5, but (a) a lot of classes hardly changed from 3 to 3.5 and (b) seriously, do you think your players will know better?)
B. I have maps up the wazoo, along with side trek adventures, modules, and various NPCs and advanced monsters to throw at the players. BTW, Thanks Paizo for both Dragon and Dungeon!
C. But you can never have more than enough (not yet at least). Besides, being full time employed, having a wife and two toddlers, and not necessarily having enough time anymore to continue the high output of NPC and monstrous combatants, I find myself borrowing more often from the annals of WotC and Paizo than before.
So, it may seem redundant and unnecessary and you may be right that it is a waste of money for yourself. But enough people disagree, so as to suggest that there are others who like the plug-ins. For me? Verdict's still out.
Wow . . . it took me a while to realize it, but I guess I'm the bastard everyone is berating for calling them a "noob" since no one else mentioned starting players and the content of the book. Now that I realize that, I guess all I can say is that I didn't say that the book would only appeal to new players, nor that adding sample encounters and adventure ideas would only appeal to new players, or that there is something wrong with players that have been playing forever liking to have that content as well.
What I said is that such material is useful to someone that has never played the game before, that hasn't seen a ton of adventures in multiple editions, and that doesn't quite know where to start.
Your apology is appreciated Knight, but I think it was actually Balabanto that was expressing noobist attitudes. I've been playing since '79, DMing since '81, am clearly not a noob, and enjoyed the book.
WOTC puts out material that appeals to different people/groups for different reasons. If it doesn't appeal to you don't buy it. If they produce enough stuff with little appeal, simple economics takes care of the problem. The only thing I object to is the implication that because you (not talking to anyone specific here) don't like something, anyone who does is somehow inferior. Critique the material, not the individuals whose views might be different from your own.
I don't think the MM4 really even needed to be produced in the first place. The MM3 has very few creatures that I use on an even occasional basis. Given a choice, I'd prefer statted creatures of 'normal' types, to yet more pointless and stupid "new" creatures. However many stat blocks of traditional 'statted' monsters are available in Dungeon magazine.
And thus there really is no compelling reason to buy yet ANOTHER monster manual. Funny, in 1st and 2nd edition, it only took them two monster manuals to print all that needed to be printed. I'm going to chalk this one up as yet another pointless money making venture by our GH-ignoring friends at Wizards of the Coast.
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Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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Funny, in 1st and 2nd edition, it only took them two monster manuals to print all that needed to be printed.
So, does that mean we're not counting:
AD&D Planescape Monstrous Compendium Appendix
AD&D Planescape Monstrous Compendium Appendix II
AD&D Monstrous Compendium Annual Volume 1
AD&D Monstrous Compendium Annual Volume 2
AD&D Monstrous Compendium: Greyhawk Appendix
AD&D Monstrous Compendium: Spelljammer Appendix 1
AD&D Monstrous Compendium: Spelljammer Appendix 1
AD&D Monstrous Compendium: Kara-Tur Appendix
AD&D Monstrous Compendium: Forgotten Realms Appendix
AD&D Monstrous Compendium: Forgotten Realms Appendix 2
AD&D Monstrous Compendium: Dragonlance Appendix
I'm sure I've missed a handful - this doesn't even include the Darksun or Ravenloft monsterous compendium, the fiend folio supplement, or the pre-planescape planar supplement. I'm also pretty sure that Planescape had a third volume to its monstrous compendium.
Not that I'm saying that there aren't too many monster manuals, but it's not a problem unique to 3e. 1e did only have 3 monster manuals that I can think of (MMI, MMII, and Fiend Folio), but I'm not sure if those covered all the monsters that needed to be printed. I don't know that I would want to run a campaign with only the monsters in those original three volumes, but I'm sure you could make a decent stab at it.
Drow Ninja???????
Drow NINJA??????
RABBI Ninja is more likely than Drow Ninja. Would someone please tell me how the philosophy of Ninjitsu emigrated to the Underdark? Don't Ninja have a code of conduct? Drow have NONE! :)
Just because someone slaps some black pajamas and a shinobigatana on someone or something's back does not a ninja make. It is the guy/girl behind the character that brings a real ninja to the table or some dork dressed in black. code of conduct?...depends on the clan. As for the drow ninja, that could be interesting if played by the right person.
But your point is well taken, seems more like a collection of preprocessed bad guys, but for the monday night pick up players that could be useful. Stat blocks are a pain in the buttocks at times.
The stuff in MM4 seems interesting and I will probably get it. But I would like to see more monsters from old dnd make back into 3.5. The Kamadan in the Dungeon 136 was awesome.
I'm going to chalk this one up as yet another pointless money making venture by our GH-ignoring friends at Wizards of the Coast.
So pointless in fact they should stop printing things. Period. I mean really, who needs money in America now anyhow? And if they actually do need money then I would suggest they get real jobs in marketing, or business administration that's where the big bucks are to be made, not in fringe game publishing.
GGG
So pointless in fact they should stop printing things. Period. I mean really, who needs money in America now anyhow? And if they actually do need money then I would suggest they get real jobs in marketing, or business administration that's where the big bucks are to be made, not in fringe game publishing.
GGG
I hope this is satire considering how we love them so for it :P They don't make a castle full of gold like Sony or Microsoft or anything but i'm sure they pull in a small dragon hoard a year. And even the folks at Paizo get a handful of gold a day chucked at them by their overbosses. Poor guys are chained to desks and whipped until one of them comes up with a good article *sniff*.
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No WotC, means no Paizo, means no Dungeon or Dragon, means no good material for my beloved hobby...
Therefore, long live the Wizards (that means, if they start using indexes in their books again!) ;)
WotC published some bad material, but also good stuff. Hollywood is as well not making only movies I like, but I don't have to watch those movies and I can choose on which movie to spend my money. The same's with WotC and d20!
Someone said "But, people want to just be able to throw encounters together and run them!" I was like "That's what DUNGEON is for. Paizo does a great job!"
This is well said.
I've paged through the MMIV. I'm not eager to pick it up anytime soon.
I will say this. The Tiamat Spawn give this DM an excuse to slip the Dragonlance Classics modules into an FR campaign, switching draconians with the myriad of Tiamat spawn. That's something I want to do in the future, perhaps after Age of Worms. Could be interesting.
Funny, I found MM IV to be more useful than its predecessors. As with any monster book there are some monsters I’ll use, some I won’t, but having classed and/or templated versions of humanoids is pretty appealing to me. I love the new stat block format, and having lair and Knowledge check results is a huge boon for me. I really wish they would reprint at least MM I in this format. All these things mean less work for me—if that makes me a noob than so be it.
Of course it could be that even though I’ve been playing for a mere twenty years, I find myself with less time to prep for my games than I did in high school. But we can’t all quit our jobs, sell our houses, and live on a gaming commune so we have ample time to devote to our adventure writing, so I’ll take the short cuts thank you very much.
PS: If anyone knows of a gaming commune, let me know, I don’t like my job much anyway.
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RPG Superstar 2014 Top 16, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16
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Funny, I found MM IV to be more useful than its predecessors. As with any monster book there are some monsters I?ll use, some I won?t, but having classed and/or templated versions of humanoids is pretty appealing to me. I love the new stat block format, and having lair and Knowledge check results is a huge boon for me. I really wish they would reprint at least MM I in this format. All these things mean less work for me?if that makes me a noob than so be it.
Of course it could be that even though I?ve been playing for a mere twenty years, I find myself with less time to prep for my games than I did in high school. But we can?t all quit our jobs, sell our houses, and live on a gaming commune so we have ample time to devote to our adventure writing, so I?ll take the short cuts thank you very much.
Yeah I'm a noob of better than 20 years experience myself who also lacks a lot of time to set up a weekly game--I find that for the campaigns I tend to run leveled humanoids are my enemies of choice for my PCs. That means a lot of work for me and since I work 40+ hrs a week, have a preschooler, and the numerous responsibilities that go with owning my own home I'm happy to have a book with short cuts built in.
I like lots of new monsters (just like so many other DMs) but I don't think I've really even scratched the surface of available monsters and a ton of new ones rarely add anything to my game...Leveled humaoids and a few applied templates really make MMIV work for me.
Anything that makes DMing more convenient for me is a big hit with me. I got MM IV as a gift yesterday and it works for me. I'm always bugging Dungeon to reduce page flipping, put stat blocks in seperate sections, etc. I want as many tools in my pocket as possible to make game prep easier, shorter, make on the fly encounters easier to set up...all that stuff.
I also have family, kids, work and countless other obligations, so I think MM IV is custom tailored for those of us who don't have the luxury to spend hours per week on game prep.
Well, this officially rivals Magic of Incarnum for "Worst 3.5 supplement ever printed."
Fully sixty percent of the material can be generated using other sourcebooks and source materials.
8th level Drow Cleric? THIS deserves it's own statblock? I can make an 8th level drow cleric with the monster manual and the PHB.
Half-Fiend Gnoll Warlock? Uhm...will anyone actually USE this creature?
Drow Ninja???????
Drow NINJA??????
RABBI Ninja is more likely than Drow Ninja. Would someone please tell me how the philosophy of Ninjitsu emigrated to the Underdark? Don't Ninja have a code of conduct? Drow have NONE! :)
The shameless list of Tiamat spawn took up an excessive amount of space. I have only this to say. TIAMAT! Stop f**king! Stop f**king right now! It's a BIG waste of paper!
This book should be a monster manual. If I wanted to buy a module, I'd go out and buy it. I don't want encounter areas. I don't want pages devoted to maps. I want monsters and I want lots of them. THere could have been twice as many creatures in this book instead of all the pretty pictures.
Someone said "But, people want to just be able to throw encounters together and run them!" I was like "That's what DUNGEON is for. Paizo does a great job!"
If you're buying the monster manual, and you don't know how to set up encounters, try playing for a while before your DM. Or, better yet, if at first you don't succeed, try, try again.
The way these books are written now, you would think that the people playing the game got on the highway, hit the learning curve, and crashed into the retaining wall.
Thank you.
Here here! Monster Manual 4 doesn't even deserve the title it has.
I buy a Monster Manual for the same reasons anyone else would. To get a heaping load of new monsters. You want classed monsters? Look on the Internet or use NPC making programs. Monster Manual 4 was a shame.
Monsters of Faerun had more new creatures than that book.
SANDSTORM had more monsters than that garbage.
As my most experienced player put it when he was scanning through the recent books written by WotC,"Since when did D&D become lazy?"
The PrC format telling you what to do and doing the work for you, the Monster Manual telling you what to do and doing the work for you, the SPELLS telling you how to describe the spell and doing the work for you.....what in the Nine Hells is going on?
TYPICAL TREASURE---Could've stayed a one-liner
SAMPLE ENCOUNTER---If you don't know how to spend 5 to 10 minutes thinking (the key word there) on how to have the monster attack your players, then you shouldn't be running it
KNOWLEDGE CHECK---Again, what the heck? They're doing the work for you, using up precious book space that could've been more material to tell you how to "think on the fly" how much information the player should get from his knowledge check. And let's just put more power to the players with this,"Hey, you didn't tell me everything. I rolled a 27, I know the book says you're supposed to tell me that other stuff you're forgetting to tell me." What in the Nine Hells?
ECOLOGY---This is good...yet terribly long. Do I care about the gestation period and the mating calls and the detail of each and every scale (or why it doesn't have scales) of the creature? Not really. It's too much information, if you ask me.
SOCIETY---Ahh, let's see what the society of the mindless ooze is and stretch that into 3 or 4 paragraphs...yeah, just what I needed for my campaigns.
I am glad Dungeon and Dragon magazines doesn't follow the new format...I don't think they'd like to. Wayyy too much space. It's the reason why they haven't produced any Prestige Classes in the magazine. What was the last PrC, excluding the "Thralls of" ones? The Master Astrologer SIX issues ago. We used to have a prestige class, several at some times, almost every issue. I miss that, I miss it terribly...
But enough moping. What's done is done, and hopefully the sales were low enough to have WotC make a Monster Manual the way it should be made. If they wanted to include ridiculous amounts of information instead of letting DMs fit and create what they want (and what they should do on their own) then they need to dedicate that to a book on its own. An Enemies&Allies II or something.
But then again, 2006 is the "Year of Extra Fluff" for them, so maybe 2007 will fare better...hopefully.
It sickened me to scan through Monster Manual IV and see on the border of the pages the words "Drow, Orc, Ogre, Yuan-ti..." It felt like I went and bought another Monster Manual One.
Oh, and I've been DMing for over 10 years and if there's one thing I have to say it's "Quit doing the work for me WotC, just give me the tools and I'll craft my games myself. I pay over $30 for more material, not for you to do half the work for me, thus losing out on the material I originally expected, and yet I still have to pay full price." Good example is that new PrC format, for example. Do my players care for it? Heck no. They tailor it their own way all the time. Does it help me? No. I tailor it to my campaign. I don't understand why WotC can't understand that everyone would like to run the game their own way instead of being told how to run it by them? Especially in D&D books.
They already do that on their Website Articles for free!!!
And the fact they lowered the page count on D&D books lately isn't helping the situation either.
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Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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I buy a Monster Manual for the same reasons anyone else would. To get a heaping load of new monsters. You want classed monsters? Look on the Internet or use NPC making programs. Monster Manual 4 was a shame.
Apparently you don't buy them for the same reasons everyone else does considering how many people have posted on this thread saying that they would buy this book for the lairs and the statted monsters. Maybe the majority of people purchase the monster manuals for quantity, I can't say for sure having not done any market research. If you would care to disclose the source of your information about "everyone" and their preferences, I'd be happy to hear more.
As my most experienced player put it when he was scanning through the recent books written by WotC,"Since when did D&D become lazy?"
My most experienced player thinks that any step in the direction of making the game easier to run and better designed is a good step.
The PrC format telling you what to do and doing the work for you, the Monster Manual telling you what to do and doing the work for you, the SPELLS telling you how to describe the spell and doing the work for you.....what in the Nine Hells is going on?
I completely agree. They should print the books in greek. Or better yet, Klingon. That way only the most hard core geeks can play D&D. Then we can separate out all those posers and want-a-bes that enjoy different types of roleplaying tools. It's too bad we didn't have these thoughts before 3e came out. We could've kept the even more complicated rules of 1e and done away with such modern niceties as balanced encounters, guidelines for encounter difficulties, and other DM tools. If a DM can't pick the game up, he doesn't deserve to play. And if you don't have time to put a game together due to a family, a career, etc, you also don't deserve to play.
TYPICAL TREASURE---Could've stayed a one-liner
SAMPLE ENCOUNTER---If you don't know how to spend 5 to 10 minutes thinking (the key word there) on how to have the monster attack your players, then you shouldn't be running it
Like you could have spent 5 to 10 minutes thinking of how to post without being condescending? Yeah, I can spend 5 to 10 minutes thinking about a sample encounter, but sometimes I draw a blank. Unfortuntately, sometimes I draw a blank in front of my players. Sometimes I don't want to make them wait 5 to 10 minutes while I come up with something. Sometimes I like an idea of the typical situation in which a monster is encountered to give me a baseline. I aspire to be so gifted as to be able to come up with something clever and intelligent off the cuff at a moment's notice, but as of yet, it's still an aspiration.
But enough moping. What's done is done, and hopefully the sales were low enough to have WotC make a Monster Manual the way it should be made. If they wanted to include ridiculous amounts of information instead of letting DMs fit and create what they want (and what they should do on their own) then they need to dedicate that to a book on its own. An Enemies&Allies II or something.
And if only hard sales data penetrated the self-centered logic of persons who think they speak for the entire D&D market and not just their own petty preferences. I have no idea how well the book will sell. I know I like it, I know I find it useful, but I'll be darned if I can say that I know how roleplaying products "should" be made. Possessing such a super-human sense, you "should" consider publishing a game.
Oh, and I've been DMing for over 10 years and if there's one thing I have to say it's "Quit doing the work for me WotC, just give me the tools and I'll craft my games myself. I pay over $30 for more material, not for you to do half the work for me, thus losing out on the material I originally expected, and yet I still have to pay full price." Good example is that new PrC format, for example. Do my players care for it? Heck no. They tailor it their own way all the time. Does it help me? No. I tailor it to my campaign. I don't understand why WotC can't understand that everyone would like to run the game their own way instead of being told how to run it by them? Especially in D&D books.
Wow. 10 years. I'm impressed. I've been DMing for nearly 20 years. F2K, who's also stated that he likes the MMIV, has probably been DMing for longer than I've been alive. I don't understand why you can't understand that people have different preferences and that some of us enjoy the products like this. I really don't understand why you can't express your opinion without insulting us in the process.
I think people expected MM IV to be like MM 1-3 and FF--lots of creatures. I, too, was surprised by the different format, but I like it and find it useful. I think the different opinions on MM IV clashing are kind of like the Eberron vs. GH vs. FR debates--you'll have two different camps no matter how often the issue is tossed around.
I don't know how much of a "preview" was available at the Wizards site before the book came out, but might I suggest that those of you who feel betrayed by the new format vigorously scout future publications from Wizards to ensure you're not getting a nasty surprise?
Sebastian, I've been playing & DMing since 1980, so unless you started DMing at age six, I haven't been DMing longer than you've been alive ;) (not that old yet...)
I've learned many things from many D&D players here and elsewhere who have a lot less "time in the trenches" than me, so I don't necessarily think more experience at playing D&D necessarily makes the veterans' opinions any more valuable than those who have only been playing for a few years--Saern, GGG and many others are examples of younger folks who are super savvy and have a lot to contribute to the hobby as a whole, and whose advice I value as much as that of folks like Sebastian.
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Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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I think people expected MM IV to be like MM 1-3 and FF--lots of creatures. I, too, was surprised by the different format, but I like it and find it useful. I think the different opinions on MM IV clashing are kind of like the Eberron vs. GH vs. FR debates--you'll have two different camps no matter how often the issue is tossed around.
I think you're right. This is really a product that you love or hate. Like I say (quite frequently), a difference in opinion is not the issue. The insulting manner in which the difference is expressed is what draws my ire.
I think you're right. This is really a product that you love or hate. Like I say (quite frequently), a difference in opinion is not the issue. The insulting manner in which the difference is expressed is what draws my ire.
Yes, I've been trying to be better about that myself-both on the giving and replying end. I try to give people the benefit of the doubt, since I've let my bad mood on some days influence my color commentary....but you're certainly correct to point out those insults (and feel free to call me on the floor if I ever do the same again in the future--whether you agree with me or not)
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Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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Sebastian, I've been playing & DMing since 1980, so unless you started DMing at age six, I haven't been DMing longer than you've been alive ;) (not that old yet...)
I've learned many things from many D&D players here and elsewhere who have a lot less "time in the trenches" than me, so I don't necessarily think more experience at playing D&D necessarily makes the veterans' opinions any more valuable than those who have only been playing for a few years--Saern, GGG and many others are examples of younger folks who are super savvy and have a lot to contribute to the hobby as a whole, and whose advice I value as much as that of folks like Sebastian.
You've got to quit editting posts after I respond! ;-)
Actually, you're pretty close. I rounded up when I said nearly 20 years. Let's just say that you could have been babysitting for me when you first picked up the dice. I don't mean to make you feel old; once you get past 25 or so it's pretty irrelevant. I find that the age of our children correlates more with how much I have in common with other adults than does my own age.
I agree on the age and quality correlation. I generally try not to throw around aged based authority, but was more tossing it back at the OP to make the point that his years playing did not somehow give him additional insight into this product.
I started playing right when 2e came out, so I tend not to think of myself as a true graybeard.