I'm running the AoW Adventure Path, and the PC levels average 18. As might be expected, their abilities are stifling indeed. We all enjoy playing, but if you don’t have your ducks in a row, combat can grind to a halt. One of the PCs, apt to talk more trash and bravado than the next player, is a Frenzied Berserker whom deals an atrocious amount of damage per hit. But that’s not the problem; the problem is a class ability called “Deathless Frenzy”. As it has been explained to me, the character, while raging, cannot be killed through hit-point damage, although the damage is accumulated and may kill the PC after the rage ends.
I have assured the PC that he is not invulnerable. Cagey veterans and creatures of superior intelligence can and will identify this trait, and circumvent it when necessary. So I ask all of you, how can a character die outside of HP damage. I have thought of a few:
Massive Damage (we use a derivative of this rule which we use)
Asphyxiation (llack of air can ruin your day)
Con Damage (When your Con reaches zero, your dead. But the PC will likely be dead sooner as the duration of the Rage is lessened as the Con bonus is reduced)
Negative Levels (When you absorb as many negative levels as you have current, you are slain)
Negative Energy (Certain Negative Energy spells such as Destruction and Slay Living will smoke you regardless of HP)
Other Spells such as Implosion.
Anyone else got creative ways of ending a PCs life without touching their HP?
If a pigeon can fall dead from the heavens, so can a great wyrm. He'd be driven into the ground like a lawn dart.
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Massive Damage (we use a derivative of this rule which we use)
Asphyxiation (llack of air can ruin your day)
Con Damage (When your Con reaches zero, your dead. But the PC will likely be dead sooner as the duration of the Rage is lessened as the Con bonus is reduced)
Negative Levels (When you absorb as many negative levels as you have current, you are slain)
Negative Energy (Certain Negative Energy spells such as Destruction and Slay Living will smoke you regardless of HP)
Other Spells such as Implosion.Anyone else got creative ways of ending a PCs life without touching their HP?
You kind of covered all the bases when you said 'Other spells like Implosion.' But, to recap, there are plenty of ways to kill a PC other than hitpoints, especially since your players are now level 18 or so. If the PCs are high enough to cast 9th level spells, so too should the enemies have this ability. Here's a couple means to do the would-be-juggernaut in:
Power Word: Kill - No save. Instant kill if you have less than 100 hp. If he's soaking up heinous amounts of damage, he should certainly fall below 100 hp, even if it doesn't kill him to go below negatives. Punish his lack of foresight and nail him with this one.
Imprisonment - Not exactly a kill, but just as good. Maze is another good option, especially if Mr. Frenzied Berserker has low intelligence, which I'm guessing he does.
Petrification - This usually requires a Fort save, which the Berserker will destroy, but its an option if you want to make something dangerous yet readily defeatable.
Mind Controlling the other PCs - If I recall correctly, in the Frenzy, a berserker will attack anything he sees as a threat. If a clever NPC (Think: Mind Flayer sorcerer) turns, say, the party cleric against the berserker during his frenzy, he'll be forced to slaughter the only thing that can bring him out of the negatives after his frenzy is over and the only thing that can ressurect him after he dies! Cleric will saves are tough, however, so I recommend using a Bestow Curse on the cleric to lower his Wisdom score significantly. Maybe hit him with a Doom spell to to give -2 to all saves. Or you could just give the mind flayer some wickedly tricked out gear that adds to his spell save DC (certainly good loot if the players manage to defeat such a monster!).
These are my evil suggestions. I'm sure there's plenty more.
[These are my evil suggestions. I'm sure there's plenty more.
Evil indeed. Have you checked your alignment lately? :)
Boy, a dominate person spell could turn that PC into the worst foe the group ever faced. Don't EVER give that PC a magical item that duplicates mind blank. ;)
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Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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Con Damage (When your Con reaches zero, your dead. But the PC will likely be dead sooner as the duration of the Rage is lessened as the Con bonus is reduced)
Aside: Are you sure that reduced Con = reduced rage duration? On the one hand, it makes sense because you use the post-rage Constitution to determine the duration, which suggests that the effect checks the con each round to determine whether it's over. On the other hand, a spell effect that lasts for a fixed period of time (e.g., entangle) would not have its save DC effected due to a change in the caster's attributes.
I’ve Got Reach,
A calm emotions spell might slow down the barbarian for a short period of time. A slow spell might also be a viable tactic, as it will slow down how many attacks the barbarian can make. Another option is for most high-level spell casters to have fly or the equivalent prepared so as to stay out of the barbarian’s reach. Finally, a one two punch of transmute rock to mud followed by transmute mud to rock could really set the frenzied death machine on his heels.
All that said, I caution you not to go too far out of your way to nullify the PC’s capabilities. After all, the player has worked hard to get to where he is and deserves to enjoy the capabilities he worked towards. So challenge him as needed, but don’t shut him down too often or he may grow resentful that any worthy foe has just the right contingencies in place to deal with him from the outset of an encounter.
I hope the above is of some help and good luck here at the end games. :-)
Good gaming,
Mark
Boy, a dominate person spell could turn that PC into the worst foe the group ever faced. Don't EVER give that PC a magical item that duplicates mind blank. ;)
Unless your playing a fairly non-standard type of campaign they should be able to go out and buy themselves such a magic Item even if the DM does not give it to them.
Otto's Irresistable Dance?
A calm emotions spell might slow down the barbarian for a short period of time.
Actually, a Calm Emotions spell would do one better than just slowing him down: drop him out of rage/frenzy altogether, on a failed save (possibly killing him outright if ending the effects puts him at -10 or less).
If you want a Calm Emotions effect that will most likely work, the trick is a Half-Elf Bard with the first Substitution level from Races of Destiny, which replaces Countersong with the ability to make a Diplomacy Check (expending one use of Bardic Music) to affect creatures within some range (I forget how far) as with a Calm Emotions spell, with the save DC equaling the results of the diplomacy check. Failing that, Heighten Spell would be your next best bet.
Aside: Are you sure that reduced Con = reduced rage duration? On the one hand, it makes sense because you use the post-rage Constitution to determine the duration, which suggests that the effect checks the con each round to determine whether it's over. On the other hand, a spell effect that lasts for a fixed period of time (e.g., entangle) would not have its save DC effected due to a change in the caster's attributes.
You're probably right - these are the types of rule arguments we have over our game table all the time.
Don't use anything with a Fort save or a grapple check (Evard's Black Tentacles). That removes almost all poisons and negative energy effects, including instant death effects. However, slowing him with fog spells and such will really help. Also, give enemies concealment, since the attack role of this monster won't matter against the miss chance.
Will saves aren't as easy to use on him as they sound. This may not be as easy as it sounds, since as I understand things, Frenzied Berserkers can rage and frinzy simultaneously, which is part of their deific power. That's a hefty +4 to Will saves, and as a barbarian base, there's a decent chance that he has a Wisdom bonus of at least +1, which means an effective +5 or so when raging and frenzying, on top of the +6 save bonus for 18th level, puts it at +11, barring cloaks of resistance and such. With that type of bonus, he can actually make a surprisingly high number of Will saves from non-BBEG foes (who probably have save DCs in the region of 20 or so).
However, if you DO get a dominate person on him and turn him against the rest of the party, they had better run for their life. Unless they want to expend the resources to neutralize their barbarian "ally", which both drains the resdt of the party and removes a huge amount of the threat from Mr. Nasty. Time is also bought. It's a win-win situation for the enemies if it works.
However, it's probably even better, as was said before, to try and hit the weak saves of other party members who aren't as all-around resistant, and turn THEM against the Frenzied Berserker with Dominate and such, which takes the control out of their hands, meaning their characters are likely to die trying to take down their new "foe". When the Frenzied Berserker looks weak enough, then is the time to slip in that Power Word: Kill.
Or, if you don't want to do something as elaborate, just go straight for a spellcaster who keeps himself well sheltered from the berserker until he's sure that the warrior is below 100hp, and then use the aforementioned barbarian-killing spell.
Confusion and stun effects. If he can't reach the target he also can't do damage. I don't know if fear would effect him while he's in a rage. Even if he's in a full rage, his weapon is the weakest link, ex: an adamantine golem grabbing his weapon and crushing it in its hand. That would really make the party wet its pants.
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I just did something similar to the real bruiser in our party. He is a chain fighter and has min-maxed it pretty thoroughly where he can do ungodly damage with a reach. However his will save is pretty abysmall, at least when compared to his other ones. I'm running the shackled city campaign and the party went up against a group of enemies that had both dominate and forcecage. It was a dream come true. One of their enemies dominated him in the first round and the second threw a forcecage around him and the groups cleric. There was certainly a moment of panic when the cleric realized what was happening and it actually took the druid summoning a bear into the cage with them to help grapple the fighter down until the rest of the team could kill the foes.
Waves of fatigue (Sor/Wiz 5) is handy-- no save and your victim is at risk of falling to exhaustion. Of course, stepping up to Waves of Exhaustion (Sor/Wiz 7) gets around having to work the barbarian up to Exhausted.
SRD: An exhausted character moves at half speed and takes a -6 penalty to Strength and Dexterity. After 1 hour of complete rest, an exhausted character becomes fatigued. A fatigued character becomes exhausted by doing something else that would normally cause fatigue.
If the barbarian's at 1/2 speed and can't run or charge (because he's fatigued), you can always run away-- or retreat and volley from a distance that he can't make up.
OK, how about this one. Have the enemy disappear in a manner that leaves no clue as to where they can be pursued. (After the frenzy has started, and after said enemy lands a solid hit on the berserker). No enemies + failed will save (DC 10+damage taken since berserker's last action) = frenzied berserker attacks friends.
Personally, as a PC I'd be a bit leary of taking up with such company as this.
Personally, as a PC I'd be a bit leary of taking up with such company as this.
One of the players in our group have the same apprehension you do about these uncontrollable rampagers.
Polymorph Any Object to turn the PC into a nice curio to decorate your what not with.
Any spell or effect that imprisons the soul of the PC. I believe the Ace of Spades (or is it clubs?) from a Deck of Many Things does this and perhaps one or 2 other spells from non-core sources.
Severing a Astrally Projected PC's silver cord.
The gaze of a bodak.
A Phantasmal Killer spell.
From the MMIV the Joystealer. A pack of them is about EL16 and they drain CHA. Once your CHA hits zero you also lose all emotions including emotion based abilites such as rage.
Just one the reasons I love this book! :-)
An unusual tactic for deling with Frenzied Berzerkers:
1.Get him/her down to -10 hp.
2.Have two 17th level wizards teleport in and each cast "Wall of Force" and another, quickened, "Wall of Force". Ensure that the Walls of Force form a four sided prison to contain the Frenzied Berzerker, if you can manage to catch the party's spellcasters in there with him/her then all the better.
3. Have the two wizards prevent the rest of the party from removing the Walls of Force and simply let the Frenzy wear off.
4.Point out that the two wizards were only CR 18 and laugh. Maniacaly. Until everyone else leaves the room.
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Confusion and stun effects. If he can't reach the target he also can't do damage. I don't know if fear would effect him while he's in a rage. Even if he's in a full rage, his weapon is the weakest link, ex: an adamantine golem grabbing his weapon and crushing it in its hand. That would really make the party wet its pants.
Put him up against a ghost with caster levels (either wizard/sorcerer or druid). Rusting Grasp, Heat Metal, Shatter, or any other nasty thing you can come up with to destroy that weapon. Then, he's weaponless against an incorporeal opponent. What's he gonna do?! NOTHING! The sorcerer would be the best choice since ghosts' abilities are largely based off of Charisma and a sorcerer's ghost would certainly have a high score there. If you want to be really wicked, you could just have a regular wizard use Mordenkainen's Disjunction to dispel all of the party's magical items and then cast Ethereal Jaunt on himself before blasting away with Transdimensional Fireballs and Horrid Wiltings. Transdimensional Spell is a feat in either the Complete Arcane or the Complete Divine, I don't remember which, but it makes ethereal creatures' spells able to affect the material plane and vice versa. Very cool stuff.
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An unusual tactic for deling with Frenzied Berzerkers:
1.Get him/her down to -10 hp.2.Have two 17th level wizards teleport in and each cast "Wall of Force" and another, quickened, "Wall of Force". Ensure that the Walls of Force form a four sided prison to contain the Frenzied Berzerker, if you can manage to catch the party's spellcasters in there with him/her then all the better.
3. Have the two wizards prevent the rest of the party from removing the Walls of Force and simply let the Frenzy wear off.
4.Point out that the two wizards were only CR 18 and laugh. Maniacaly. Until everyone else leaves the room.
Alternately, you could save yourself a great deal of difficulty and just use Forcecage instead. :)
Alternately, you could save yourself a great deal of difficulty and just use Forcecage instead. :)
^_^ I forgot that forcecage doesn't allow a saving throw. This strategy does have the advantage of being able to trap the party's spellcasters in there with the frenzied berzerker though.
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Alternately, you could save yourself a great deal of difficulty and just use Forcecage instead. :)^_^ I forgot that forcecage doesn't allow a saving throw. This strategy does have the advantage of being able to trap the party's spellcasters in there with the frenzied berzerker though.
There's extra room inside a Forcecage. You just need to 'persuade' the casters to get in the same area as the berserker when you cast it. By 'persuade' I mean fill the room with Cloudkills/Incindiary Clouds until only a small area is unaffected and then, when they group up in the 'safe spot' you Forcecage 'em!