Recently I've noticed an astounding number of treads dedicated mostly to elf-bashing. 'What I hate most about D&D' and 'Why I hate elves' on messageboards both here and on other sites. Due to the fact that I came across these to late to really add anything of value I thought I'd post this.
The two major points I've seen listed are as follows:
1) Elves are stupid. It takes an elf 100 years to be a first level character. If this is the case than kobolds must be the smartest race in existence. You can be a first level fighter at the age of 7, and a wizard at the age of 8. On top of this you also live to be over a hundred. By these same standards half-orcs (who take an INT hit) are smarter than humans (who don't) just because they mature faster. This makes no sense. Elves age and learn at the same rate as humans for about the first twenty years (see Races of the Wild) and then spend the next hundred years partying, exploring, learning multiple crafts, and generally acting like teens just out of highschool (note the mostly chaotic alignment). Then they settle down with what they want to do for the rest of their lives (some 400+ years). How does this make them stupid?
2) Elves are arrogant. This I understand this even less. At no point in the personality description for elves in the PH does it say elves are arrogant. Arrogance is a personality trait given to a character by it's player (either player or DM). This would be like saying you hate wizards because they are arrogant, or clerics because they a holier-than-thou, or fighters because they are stupid, or rogues because they are sneaky. If you don't like arrogant elves, don’t play them as arrogant. Or just play a kobold. They are cowardly and craven little vermin (if we are still going with stereotypes as the rule).
I apologize if I have offended anyone who stated these as their reasons for not liking elves. I simply think you've had bad experiences with the way someone played an elf in the past. Oh, and I think the joke in OoTS about elves in diapers for twenty years was just that, a joke.
Elves age and learn at the same rate as humans for about the first twenty years (see Races of the Wild) and then spend the next hundred years partying, exploring, learning multiple crafts, and generally acting like teens just out of highschool
I wanna be an elf
Well let's cut our angular anorexic allies a break... after all, that arrogance is really just a sign of deep seeded insecurity from bad childhoods. I mean, fathers intoning their difference in age respective to their superior wisdom just sucks for any old kid, but when the guy used to yacht with Methuselah? That arrogance passes on down the line.
And when an elf has a bad childhood... that ain't just some long weekend at the dump. I mean, can you imagine how many carefully woven, probably superior thread count elven bedsheets a bedwetting elf kid must go through? And think of having to wait decades to get your first coin from the tooth fairy?
Don't hate elves... hug them, and tearfully confide to them that you understand and relate. Then use this feint of emotional sensitivity to sieze the advantage and run your fingers through their hair while pulling them in close until the heat between your two bodies--
Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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Kobolds rule! I can't remember who wrote the book, but did anyone ever read Magic Kingdom for Sale/Sold? The book had two kobolds, Bunyion and Parsnip, who were total bad asses. I read the book when I was a kid and before I began playing D&D, and was shocked to learn that kobolds were pathetic wimps according to the game system.
Anyway, I would agree, kobolds are smarter than elves. I'd much rather play a kobold than an elf, but DM's never want to let you do that.
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Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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Don't hate elves... hug them, and tearfully confide to them that you understand and relate. Then use this feint of emotional sensitivity to sieze the advantage and run your fingers through their hair while pulling them in close until the heat between your two bodies--
And on that note, consider how inadequate elven men must feel. There sure are a lot of half-elves out there, if you know what I mean (and I think you do).
Once you go human, you never go back.
Valcrist, I commend you for taking such an even-handed attitude with elves. Actually, the attitude and behavior of elves during their frat-boy period explains the abundance of half-elves in D&D (it works both ways Sebastion :)). This behavior also explains their chaotic alignment perfectly.
I think a lot of elf-bashing on these threads can also be traced to peoples dislike of Tolkien and/or LOR. They hate the books or how elves are presented in them and can't separate D&D elves from LOR elves no matter what designers do to the race. It's the same with people who like Tolkien and LOR and can't see the elves as being equal to humans and other races.
This sort of narrowmindedness (either way) proliferates on these threads.
According to D&D lore elves take a much slower and more measured approach to life after their frenetic period. I think most elven adventuring should take place during this 100 year period. If they are physically mature and intelligent enough to survive in a dangerous world by the age of 20 then elves should be adventuring from that point forward. After this period of adventuring most elves would then settle down and engage in studies and the betterment of their race. These elves don't take center stage because that's for younger elves. Perhaps these 100 years are for dangerous activities like adventuring and then after this period is finished the elves are expected to lead a safe sedentary existence so they can guide the younger elves when needed. Perhaps there is some unwritten law in elven society that forces elves to engage in certain behaviors at certain times. Remember that NPCs gain XP the same way as PCs, by doing unusual, dangerous, and exciting things. That goes the same for elven NPCs and PCs.
Kobolds are a powerful race. They carry the blood of dragons in their veins and some of them can grow wings and fly. They make powerful sorcerers and are the best trapbuilders in the world. They are also fantastic miners. No one talks about the wonders of the kobold race because they are hidden by the kobolds so they don't get trashed by stupid dwarves and unthinking elves. They are also a pragmatic race. They know that it's easier to steal something than make it, and they are content with their superiority over the other races. They don't try to flaunt it like they airy fairy elves.
My only problem with elves as a player race as so few people actually seem to play them well. Think about this a bit and you may begin to see as I do. Elves are a very long lives race so what is there really to get excited about. While it is true that elves have a certain passion and zest for life, it is much different is aspect than a human; elves for the most part don't covet power; might spend a month just enjoying the season, and doesnt really have to respond to any annoying attributes of short lives races because an elf can just wait a few years and most of their so called enemies die off of old age. When a elf lives many hundreds to maybe a thousand years and participates in a culure eons old; everyone would seem a brutish, unsophisticated cad in comparison. Any person living that long would have communication skills - speach and body language of very practiced and needfully polite - that would leave anyone else attempting to communicate with them at a loss much like a 4 year old who has the vocabulary yet misses all the inuendo and intension inflected in coversation. If you lived in a society like this where food and drink is pleanty and your home is fairly secure and has been for centuries; why the heck would you go adventuring? Most adventuring elves are ,in their societies eyes, rarely more than teenagers and therefore relative outcasts as most teenagers are in any society. Sure, there are reasons; good ones too, but I would think that elves and dragons, for that matter, would always have the very long view of things and settle any unpleasantness very quickly to get back to the discovering the real meaning of life.
I have a real problem with peeps who just pick character races just for the stat bonuses and fail to immerse themselves into playing the racial aspect of the character.
Kobold on the other hand; love em; I give kobolds in my world special mystical group tactical powers and special deep lore and have their race split into three factions that breed different traits. Currently kobolds play a big part in my worlds seesaw battle between good and evil; chaos and law. Bad guys are what you make of them; its all about leadership :)
hehe another long post from me; no big surprise there.
Once you go human, you never go back.
You know what I'm sayin'?!
High five!
First off, let thank Sabastion, Phil L., and Valegrim for understanding where I was coming from. I'm not trying to change the minds of anyone, and for the most part I don't think I could. All I'm trying to point out is that I see no reason for people to respond as negatively to elves as they do.
I don't like half-orcs. Do I hate them? No, but I don't like the race, and I don't like the way people play them. But I don't go around bashing them either. Some people like them, and I'm cool with that. If I had someone play a half-orc in one of my games, and play it well, I might change my mind.
The problem I keep seeing is that people are unwilling to take into consideration that there are some people out there whose favorite race are elves. You should have some consideration for them. Keep the gay hippy jokes to your friends. Just because you can't see someone from in front of your computer doesn’t mean you should feel free to insult them. Keep it clean, and take it seriously.
Oh, and as a side note: KOBOLDS ROCK!
Oh, but Sabastion, I think you still missed the point with the elves.
My son plays the best Kobolds! He asked me to post this and say, "Kobolds Rock!"
. . . .
Now that he's left the room, I have to admit that he does do a good job with the race when he plays one. He HAD to have the Races of the Dragon book, devoured it, and now plays kobolds almost exclusively. I'm so proud!
At least it got him out of his gnome phase for a bit . . .
Elves are stupid.
Personally...I hate all the races in the PH except for the human and the dwarf.
Reasons:
1. Dwarves are just cool, and while were on that, their stone cunning ability is rediculously useful.
2. Humans get the bonus feat, they dont get any penalties on their ability scores and they don't have a favored class
and personally, I hate elves most of all. Pretty much because their so cliche, the handsome ranger elf who goes and takes orcs as their first favored enemy should just go and stick two arrows into their eyes and run around in the public square for some entertainment...and then just die.
I'm done ranting.
At least it got him out of his gnome phase for a bit . . .
One of my friends, he's been playing for prolly 2 years now.
And something he does is he gets a race and a class and plays those exclusively...his current "phase" is a Bugbear Monk.
I hate it when people do that, I mean I can live with it but I would rather choose something completely different...but one race that you can't beat are the Drow (no they are not elves, their DARK elves, and that whats count)
One race that you can't beat are the Drow (no they are not elves, their DARK elves, and that whats count)
First off, I have to share your opinion about the drow being an awesome race. But they are still elves, just very evil, level adjustment elves.
As far as your earlier post, I think the problem is that so many people play the same cliche's over and over. The cool elven ranger with a bow (just like the one from that movie!), the stupid half-orc barbarian (God I can't stand that one), the human wizard who is so old he should have died sometime during first ed.
I think most people's problem with any race, not just elves, is overused stereotypes. How about an elven ranger who hunts demons, womanizes, and whips around with duel bastard-swords (they don’t take a STR hit and DEX is good for AC). Or and intelligent half-orc rogue (as intelligent as you can get with that stat hit) who uses violence as a last resort.
So many people think of characters from a standpoint of what is the most advantages race to play for a class that they fail to see what might make a great character. One of my best characters was the pissy halfling fighter who fought with a greataxe. Sure he had a -2 STR and his weapon did a die-class less damage, but he was memorable. Not just another human fighter with a greatsword. And in the end the small minuses to damage didn’t make much of a difference.
So in conclusion, Strongheart Halflings (FR) also ROCK!
I personally love elves. I think there is so much that can be done with them role-playing wise (as opposed to roll-playing) given that their longer lives provide for a much richer context in which to develop a personality.
However, I whole heartedly disagree with the assertion that elves can simply wait their enemies out (and watch them die) or that they can merely ignore the shorted lived races. While some may take this stance, I think they are the exception. With such a long lifespan which predominantly allows for and is trageted at lesiure time (in the Josef Pieper sense) creates a greater possibility for the elf to have an insight into those lesser races, allowing them to understand the need for "urgency" in their lives. Simply put, just because elves live longer does not necessarily make and elf apathetic or unable to have empathy for those around him or her, regardless of their respective lifespans.
Kobolds: 2nd editon kobolds rocked with the ability to be seen as the "least threat" in a PC party. Be nice if that had been a rule of thumb for 3rd.
Does anyone remember a published adventure-in-a-box where a teleporting mountain contained tribes of kobolds guarding a red dragon hoard? I wish I could remember the name of that one (I'll do a search later) but the kobolds in that were just evil little snootches! I distinctly remember poisoned arrows. Lot's of 'em. That was the best I've ever seen kobolds.
I think most people's problem with any race, not just elves, is overused stereotypes. How about an elven ranger who hunts demons, womanizes, and whips around with duel bastard-swords (they don’t take a STR hit and DEX is good for AC). Or and intelligent half-orc rogue (as intelligent as you can get with that stat hit) who uses violence as a last resort.
I have played Neverwinter Nights (a great game by the way), and my best character was a very charismatic great sword weilding half-orc sorcerer...until I ran into a glitch...lol...that really rained on my parade.
But anyway the point is, I love the weirdest combos and I love looking thru the "complete" line of books (complete warriors, complete arcane) and finding class combos with my druid (a spell caster and a fighter...yes thats right) but I love looking for the weird multiclass ideas that would be great if I could spare a level in between the shifter druid and werewolf lord...but I think going against "societies" wishes is the coolest...
Meepo rules.
Hmm to me dark elves are so yesterdays news; guess I really got turned off with them reading many of the Drist novels and meeting his wimpy self in the computer game that took place on the sword coast. To me drow have always been that very old, decadent race that in more interested in their own political infighting and manuevering than doing anything meaningful to other races; they are far less interesting than say beholders or various undead or even duegar. Of all the underground races you can play or go visit in a campaign they are probably the most useless as they pretty much run a drow only exclusive club and you can't really trade or do much with chaotic evils anyway so unless you are going there to pluck a few hairs off Lolth's hind end (like my party did)then the drow are more or less D&D's answer to Caligula's Roman Empire; if Caligula was a black chick with pointed ears. All that aside; Drow chicks are down right awesome looking; yep, easy on the eyes.