Question about the Greyhawk version of Savage Tide

[Bocklin]

Hi,

I have been trying to acquire some modicum of knowledge about Greyhawk and read a couple of books in the past months. So, looking at Savage Tide, I think I'll try to put a group of players together and run the AP3 in the World of Greyhawk.

I understand that the RPGA local groups have advanced the timeline quite a bit since the Living Greyhawk Gazeteer came out and I was wondering how relevant it was for the Amedio jungle, Hold of the Sea Princes and Scarlet Brotherhood.

Will Savage Tide be based on what the situation was in the LGG or will it take into account RPGA developments for those regions? Or maybe it's not relevant at all?

In advance, thanks to James or whomever can answer this.

Bocklin

[Faux Real]

I have some related questions.

Is Sasserine considered a part of the Hold of the Sea Princes, or is it an independent city state?

Where is the Isle of Dread in Greyhawk?

Where is Scuttlecove?

[James Jacobs]

Savage Tide will have elements of the Scarlet Brotherhood in it; they aren't the primary antagonists, but they'll definately have a presence.

Savage Tide won't take much into account from the LGG; it might pick up one or two themes here and there, but for the most part it's best to look at LGG and Savage Tide as parallel campaigns set in the same world. We'll be using teh Living Greyhakw Gazetteer as the foundation and building from there, but since the campaign doesn't interact with the northern nations much at all, there shouldn't be much of a disconnect between the two campaigns, I would think.

[James Jacobs]

David Witanowski wrote:

Is Sasserine considered a part of the Hold of the Sea Princes, or is it an independent city state?

Sasserine was originally established by the Hold, but has since become an independent city state.

David Witanowski wrote:

Where is the Isle of Dread in Greyhawk?

It's about 1,500 miles south of the point where the coastline goes off the map along the Amedio Jungle.

David Witanowski wrote:

Where is Scuttlecove?

It's about 400 miles east of the point where the coastline goes off the map, and about 1,200 miles northeast of the Isle of Dread.

There'll be a map of this whole region and the relationship between the Isle of Dread, Scuttlecove, Sasserine, and the mainland in issue #141.

[Bocklin]

Thanks, James! Very useful.

Bocklin

[Hagen]

James Jacobs wrote:

Sasserine was originally established by the Hold, but has since become an independent city state.

I had assumed that Sasserine had been founded by Keoland, since it's more than 600 years old and the Hold of the Sea Princes only became independant of Keoland during the 400's if I remember correctly.

[James Jacobs]

Hagen wrote:

James Jacobs wrote:

Sasserine was originally established by the Hold, but has since become an independent city state.

I had assumed that Sasserine had been founded by Keoland, since it's more than 600 years old and the Hold of the Sea Princes only became independant of Keoland during the 400's if I remember correctly.

This might be the case too, to be honest. The Sasserine backdrop is still being written (by me), so anything I mention here is subject to change. Issue #139 will have the final word on Sasserine.

[evilash]

James Jacobs wrote:

Sasserine was originally established by the Hold, but has since become an independent city state.

Hagen wrote:

I had assumed that Sasserine had been founded by Keoland, since it's more than 600 years old and the Hold of the Sea Princes only became independant of Keoland during the 400's if I remember correctly.

In my SCAP Sasserine was founded around -400 CY by refugees from Suel Imperium. It's always been more or less a Free City, but when Hold of the Sea Princes controlled Jeklea Bay they more or less controlled Sasserine as well.

[Craig Clark]

evilash wrote:

In my SCAP Sasserine was founded around -400 CY by refugees from Suel Imperium. It's always been more or less a Free City, but when Hold of the Sea Princes controlled Jeklea Bay they more or less controlled Sasserine as well.

That's basically what I decided as well. Surabar had to come from somewhere and the LGG Keoland have a Suel House (the Toli) in their history that basically set up their plantations using indigenous peoples as slaves (Flan). It just seemed for Sasserine to be established 700+ years ago that it would make sense for this to have been done by early Suel migrations. When the Twin Cataclysms occur whatever trade routes that had been established to the Suel Imperium would have ended causing Sasserine to become even more lawless. (Which would also put an end to any protection scheme they might have had with regard to the Demonskar.)

And just to prove what a huge Greyhawk geek I am, I actually came up with a reason that the port was named Sasserine. Looking through the Scarlet Brotherhood book I came up with 'ornamental dagger' or the Suel word "sacarideen" as the original name for Sasserine. I thought maybe when the first Suel settlers came down from the Crystalmists (now Hellfurnaces) the river they followed had carved a deep jagged cut along the coast which formed a perfect deep water port and a ready source for moving deklo trunks from nearby jungles to the newly created shipyards. The view of the port from the upper hills looked like a dark green knife, Xerbo's priests simply named the settlement because of that.

[txwad]

I like the preceding. One twist to it is to remember that various Greyhawk Gazeteers have had tiny notes that certain parts of the Sea Princes (Port Toli) I believe were founded (as ports if not as a full-fledged nation) even PRIOR to the Invoked Devastation and Rain of Colorless Fire.

Therefore, another possibility is that the original town of Sasserine was founded in a similar fashion prior to the destruction of the Suel Empire as a pathetically small trading outpost on the Azure Sea. The outpost may or may not have been a formal part of the Suel Empire, think of the way Anglo-Dutch emigres colonized southern africa without much organized help from their parent countries. Rather, it attracted rough and ready scruffy types from various places but undoubtably dominated by Suelish people (as if they would settle for anything else).

If you buy this argument, then Wee Jas and Kord who are in Cauldron are the original founding religions of the city, along with Osprem and Xerbo who aren't in Cauldron but logically would be in Sasserine -- I envision Xerbo serving as the deity of commerce with an eat or be eaten motif as much as lord of the seas. St Cuthbert's worshippers came much later, after the town was already a bustling trade center, after it was on its way to becoming a city.

Anyways, using this chronology, the tiny settlement of Sasserine was conquered by the Keoish, probably when the Rhola Kings (Tavish?) were in the ascendancy. It thrived during the age of Keoish naval imperialism and was a waystation for Keoish exploration vessels that reached as far South as the Isle of Dread. However, these thriving trade routes led to lucrative piratical opportunities for bucaneers from Port Toli, etc. Sasserine was captured by, or was one of the leaders of the dissident forces during the rebellion of the Sea Princes from Keoland. Sasserine became a little bit of a backwater after these events as Keoland turned away from the sea and the Sea Princes favored their own main cities (Port Toli, Monmurg) at the expense of Sasserine. When the Scarlet Brotherhood attacked the Sea Princes, no one could oppose Sasserine's declaration of independence and today, the city is too strong for an overstretched Scarlet Brotherhood to recapture -- with strong alliances with the Dwarves of Ulek and possibly Keoland as well. Today, Sasserine is booming again, as a trade center where red-robed monks from the Brotherhood and their puppets from the Lord of the Isles and Monmurg rub shoulders with Keoish, Amedians, Dwarves from the Principality of Ulek, etc. As it did during the age of Keoish expansion, Sasserine is stretching its colonial arms towards the South, with tiny colonial fingers reaching the Isle of Dread once again.

[Hagen]

I don't see how Sasserine can thrive in today's Greyhawk without being controlled or allied with the Scarlet Brotherhood. Being a trading city in the Amedio Jungle, all of its commerce must come from Cauldron or overseas. The Scarlet Brotherhood controls the waters of Jeklea Bay and any commerce traveling through it. Assuming the majority of Sasserine's inhabitants are of Suloise origin, I imagine the rulers of Sasserine have some sort of arrangement with the Scarlet Brotherhood. Until the Hold of the Sea Princes drives off the Brotherhood completely from the Azure Sea, the Brotherhood will have its say in Sasserine's affairs.

[txwad]

There is a big difference between influence and control! Sasserine is a great place for the Scarlet Brotherhood, Ulek and Keoland to contend for influence with the Scarlet Brotherhood having a natural advantage.

Its obvious that the Scarlet Brotherhood never had the demographic base to be a tightly run empire. Furthermore, the Scarlet Bro has already lost most of the land mass of the Sea Princes, it has already lost Onnwal. It is very clear that its grip over a gigantic coastal region, which was obviously a classic case of overreach (or to metagame, a silly Greyhawk Wars idea) is loosening.

If the inhabitants of Sasserine are mostly Suel to begin with, and Sasserine is a true CITY of tens of thousands in rough defensible terrain like Cauldron, then the Brotherhood has little motive to conquer it, and doesnt have the spare manpower or vessels to do so in any event (if it can't defend Onnwal, it cant take Sasserine). Sasserine is probably surrounded by tropical plantations growing fruits and woods for export (in part) to the Brotherhood anyways.

It seems logical to me that the Brotherhood would exempt Sasserine-flagged ships (like they did with the Lordship of the Isles but with less control since Sasserine is farther from the Scar Bro heartland) from its blockade of the South Seas in exchange for some tax. This exemption would actually make a Sasserine-flagged vessel even more valuable if you are Keoish or Ulek and means that a merchant in those countries would scramble to establish a base in Sasserine and exchange its goods there or even reflag its vessels in that city. That would be a great adventure in itself -- hiding or hampering the brotherhood spies trying to prove what everyone knows -- that Sasserine merchants are complicit in reflagging Keoish vessels under their own banner to escape the Brotherhoods blockade.

Bottom line, Sasserine is full of Brotherhood spies and agents and the merchant elite fears the Brotherhood's assasins and will never move openly and directly against it. On the other hand, the Suel merchants of Sasserine quietly mock the Brotherhood for its 'uneconomic' (and failing) militaristic exploits while their own mercantilist exploits rise from success to success. They will not accept Brotherhood soldiers or military vessels in the city. Its kind of like Casablanca or Lebanon prior to the Civil War -- everyone is dedicated to making money aka the 'Sasserine Way' (and scheming against each other a bit) and trying to ignore the wars waging around them. I think a stable classically neutral merchant city on key trade routes could make a killing in that kind of environment while paying mild lip service to whatever allegiance is needed at the moment to go back to making money.

Just my 2 cents

[TwiceBorn]

I strongly agree with the ideas of txwad and Craig Clark. To add my own two cents, however, I don't like the idea of a settlement the size of a city having been unknown for so long and then making a sudden appearance on a map (compare the Dungeon Greyhawk map vs. previous Greyhawk maps) and becoming recognized out of the blue as a city with major political and economic influence.

Potential solution (this is just coming off the top of my head, I haven't taken much time to think about it, but it would build on what txwad and Craig Clark suggested above regarding the Suloise origins of Sasserine): until the time of the Greyhawk wars, Sasserine was a little known town/outpost that traded almost exclusively with the Sea Princes. During the Greyhawk Wars and in the years when the Brotherood had the tighest grip on the Hold, "pirates" (or what have you) would smuggle for exhorbitant fees people seeking to flee the lands of the Sea Princes and the Scarlet Brotherhood. Their destination: Sasserine. Hundreds of people (perhaps even thousands?) may have been smuggled in this way. The Scarlet Brotherhood may have been aware of some of these occurrences, but did little to stop them (if I recall correctly, some historians believe the Nazis were "easier" and occasionally turned a blind eye on Danes who smuggled Jews to Sweden... but I don't want to get into a historical debate, and certainly don't intend to offend anyone... just making a comparison).

With the resources found around Sasserine and the swelling post-war population with ties to the mainland Flanaess, the town would have grown into a city, and would only now be emerging as a prosperous merchant port known throughout the southern coastal regions of the Flanaess.

Could this fly? Anyway, it's just an idea...

[txwad]

I love your population boom idea transforming an old stale town into a new city -- refugees from the Hold of the Sea Princes (and the Pomarj) culturally would probably be more comfortable with Sasserine than with the Yeomanry or Keoland so it makes sense that the bulk of them would flee there.

Plus, let me tell you, I grew up in Austin, Texas. Cities can triple their population in twenty or thirty years in an economic boom, no problem at all! Sasserine should clearly be a boom town if they are friendly enough to pass the Brotherhood blockade and independent enough to do business with Keoland and Ulek. Plus, sugar and coffee production and use soared in the medieval era and in the early Renaissance. With demand soaring, and with the Sea Princes area convulsing in a civil war, the Hold's vast estates of sugarcane are abandoned -- thus supply is restricted! Thus, sugar prices have SOARED in Greyhawk in the last decade. There has to be a boom in sugar plantations around Cauldron and Sasserine. Finally, coffee is kind of hard to grow, it needs a semitropical environment but mtnous as well. If you look on the Greyhawk map, Sasserine/Cauldron is really the logical place (other than the Baklunish areas) for dominant coffee production.

In summary, Sasserine is a trading entrepot, trafficking in sugar and coffee plus fruits and wood plus reselling metals from the Cauldron area. Finally it is a logical stopping point for the sea transit trade to the Isle of Dread, Olman Isles, and Amedio. Depending on how dark James wants to make it, slavery would be logical, particularly on the plantations. On the other hand, it would be logical to have slavery outlawed in the actual city of Sasserine. For example, the inhabitants of the city could be terrified by the experience of the slave rebellions in the Hold and recognize how dangerous it is to have a slave population in the city -- though like I said, outside the walls is another thing.

Finally, the people of Sasserine would probably think that the breeding programs of the Brotherhood are gross. Sasserine, as a trading city, should be much more tolerant, at least in a mercantilist sense. I see a merchant city dominated more by worshippers of Osprem and Xerbo and the vanity aspect of Wee Jas than by Cauldron's St Cuthbert or even Kord. Plus, the evil Suel deities, other than Wee Jas would probably be frowned upon or banned.

[Craig Clark]

Hagen wrote:

I don't see how Sasserine can thrive in today's Greyhawk without being controlled or allied with the Scarlet Brotherhood. Being a trading city in the Amedio Jungle, all of its commerce must come from Cauldron or overseas. The Scarlet Brotherhood controls the waters of Jeklea Bay and any commerce traveling through it. Assuming the majority of Sasserine's inhabitants are of Suloise origin, I imagine the rulers of Sasserine have some sort of arrangement with the Scarlet Brotherhood. Until the Hold of the Sea Princes drives off the Brotherhood completely from the Azure Sea, the Brotherhood will have its say in Sasserine's affairs.

Basically you can explain this away by saying most maps of the Flanaess didn't include Sasserine because it wasn't an acknowledged part of the Hold of Sea Princes. Also the iron fist of the Scarlet Brotherhood that is talked about in From the Ashes probably isn't much more than state sponsored 'pirates' that ply the waves around 'The Hook'. I always viewed the SB as having a powerful but very small navy that is heavily fortified by summoned/charmed sea monsters. After all they are incredibly reliant on 'slave mercenaries' that simply wouldn't be reliable as sailors. The buffer that I used to explain the lack of SB in and around Sasserine (up until the western Hold revolted anyway) was a strong contingent of aquatic elves who are somewhat allied with the wizard Drawmij. This is kind of a cop out but I really don't like the way the SB is assumed to control the southern seas with such a small nation. Also it gives a believable reason for the population of Cauldron to be as large as it is in such a remote region with the influx of refugees from the Wars.

I used trade with Xamaclan from Cauldron through a treacherous overland route through the Amedio as a result of the short lived but somewhat effective SB blockade of the Jeklea at the start of the Greyhawk Wars. (It also gave me an oppurtunity to introduce my players to lands outside of the Flanaess.)

Anyone who is interested in the pre-history of Keoland and the Hold of Sea Princes should seek out Samewise's write-up on Canonfire.com, it makes perfect sense in relation to Keolands history.

[Craig Shannon]

All seems fairly sensible stuff people, lots of good ideas :) All I could glean on Sasserine was the following, much of which was from the original Dungeon adventures that oft referred to Sasserine as the capital of the realm:

Large city 21,000/40,000 gp limit.

Has a hidden temple of Nerull, mentioned alongside the Necrocants.
Has an assassin's guild, mentioned as Taskerhill wished to hire an assassin from Sasserine to kill the Lord Mayor.
A temple of Saint Cuthbert larger than one in Cauldron, the one Tarcem Delasharn visited when buying wands in secret
A temple of Pelor, one that is above the shrine in Cauldron, that is concerned about what happened to the priests in Cauldron.

The following relates to Coryston Pike from Life's Bazaar:

Coryston Pike’s adventuring career may have been cut short, but if she survives her experience in the Malachite Fortress, the PCs will have gained a useful ally. Her father, Dovin Pike, leads a powerful merchant cartel in the realm’s capital city, and she has access to contacts and resources not usually available to a character of her level. Her father has little respect for adventurers in general, but Coryston knows many ways to creep into his heart. She also enjoys manipulating her father’s sycophantic underlings to secure expensive items (including single-use or charged magic items) at a reduced price. Provided the heroes don’t need an item immediately, she can get it for them in 1d4+3 days at a discount (25% for potions and scrolls, 10% for everything else). When she is not locked away in some subterranean prison, Coryston keeps abreast of events around her. PCs can tap her knowledge of local rumors, as well as her knowledge of people and places in Cauldron.

None of this conflicts with what you have been saying. Saint Cuthbert might need explaining, but given he is in evidence, and slavery in Cauldron and Sasserine (presumably) is covert and not open trade then the servants of the Cudgel may have had something to do with that, and may have specifically come to the area to impose decent laws. Just a thought.

[James Jacobs]

Hey everyone! This is a really thought-provoking thread, and it's also really helpful, especially since there's a few obscure things mentioned here from "Shackled City" that I totally forgot... WHEW! Anyway, the Sasserine backdrop for issue #139 is shaping up nicely, even if the map kind of ruined me with it being so huge and complex...

[Bloody Root]

Man, What happened to the AP's (and Dungeon in general) being campagin non specific?

Not that I'm complaining, but it seems that this AP is going to be harder to convert (to Eberron that is) then the last 2 AP's.

The Sassirine back drop sounds cool. Yet another paizo product that I "cant hardly wait" for.

[Craig Shannon]

*shrugs* We go with what we know I guess Bloody Root :) Oddly enough I played Known World (which became Mystara) and Greyhawk to begin with, then ran FR for 12 years, then back to Greyhawk to run for 3.0 and have not changed since. Taking FR out the Great Wheel seemed demented to me, and for my players there was a lot of plane hopping from FR to Planescape that would be ruined by revisiting FR (adventures such as Tales From the Infinite Staircase, For Duty and Deity, A Paladin in Hell).

The only thing that I haven't studied is Eberron, mainly because there is little room left in my head and well...certain people's attitude has made me think it bring's out the worst in people :) Or it's just for kids, one or the other (joking of course) :)

Anyway, Nerull, Pelor, Saint Cuthbert are Core gods, and the original Dungeon's referred to them as such. Mind you, it is easier for Greyhawk players to add extra Greyhawk content on top, even if we have to get it via message boards or old pdfs and not from the spooky wizards anymore :) Then again there is Core Beliefs now :) However, this thread is about Greyhawk and AP3 so as such it is on topic.

James,

I suggest you skim the original Dunegon's :) I know you edited and compiled the Hardcover from the original but little bits seems to have fallen out of it that are in the Dungeon's that refer to the, as was then, nebulous Sasserine. For a while it was just "the realm's capital city" :) Mind you the stuff from above was pulled from a document I did compiling what sparse bits on Sasserine there where in AP1. I don't think I missed anything but that means I probably did :)

[Craig Shannon]

Nope, I did :) This is from the Life's Bazaar web enhancement.

"The Striders of Fharlanghn know that the Cagewrights worship powerful extraplanar fiends living in Carceri. Years ago, with the help of some good-aligned adventurers, the Striders attacked a cabal of Cagewrights in the realm’s capital city, but not before the Cagewrights called forth one of their vile masters from the prison plane. Several Striders perished in the battle, but the fiend was eventually banished back to Carceri, and the surviving Cagewrights were routed."

Not much but "realm's capital city" comes up again and depending how public this battle was it could be something people remember. It does suggest there are, or at least, where Cagewright's in Sasserine. If they are still there, and Adimarchus is presumed dead at the end of AP1, what are they doing now? Mind you, routed suggests gone from the city. It also suggests a major shrine to Fharlanghn in Sasserine, possibly built to thank the Striders for banishing the summoned demondand (I assume) and ousting the Cagewrights.

The other thing I inferred is that there is a temple of Wee Jas in Sasserine. After the players deal with Ike in AP1 one of the potential fall outs is the repsonse of Wee Jasidan worshippers in the region, such as good (not in my campaign), neutral, evil, necromancer and lich worshippers. These worshippers needed somewhere to be (or at least a focus for their devotion), and the only logical choice is Sasserine, as the villages etc are too small. I don't think Amedian Suel barbarians in a Greyhawk setting would count.

Another inference was if there where Ebon Triad cultists that to become heretics they probably had to be orthodox first. As such I was going to have cults of Vecna, Hextor and Erythnuul is Sasserine as well.

My actual references for "facts" are as follows:

The Necrocants, and by inference the Hidden Temple, are referenced in “Lords of Oblivion” pages 52/53 DUNGEON #112.
The Necrocants: Khyron Bonesworn (NE male human Clr10 [Nerull]), Melagorn Thureq (CE male half-elf Nec9), Oster Zandridge (male human Rog6/Asn2), Tervas Shatterskull (male half-orc Brb8)
Order of the Silver Dream: LG monastic order that defeated Mhaad two centuries ago. (I forgot to mention this at all yet).
Assassin’s Guild; contacted by Ankhin Taskerhill and referenced in “Foundation of Flame” page 59 DUNGEON #113.

At the end of the day I am glad I never fleshed out Sasserine and my players where more than happy to go to Greyhawk City after Occipitus before returning to Cauldron :)

PS changed my avatar again in homage to The Blood Empress and hoping that she appears in AP3.

[Craig Shannon]

Just spotted this:

Craig Clark wrote:

And just to prove what a huge Greyhawk geek I am, I actually came up with a reason that the port was named Sasserine. Looking through the Scarlet Brotherhood book I came up with 'ornamental dagger' or the Suel word "sacarideen" as the original name for Sasserine.

Made a phone call. My player loved that :) His character is called Xia Sacari Govdeen (recently aquired), Karuth (religious title although he will soon become the Archite of the Cathedral).

[Craig Shannon]

James Jacobs wrote:

WHEW! Anyway, the Sasserine backdrop for issue #139 is shaping up nicely, even if the map kind of ruined me with it being so huge and complex...

What exactly is meant by huge and complex? Are we getting another Greyhawk City or Waterdeep here? If so it seems a shame, given most of the campaign appears to NOT be in Sasserine. Not that I'm complaining, you can never have enough maps of large cities :)

[James Jacobs]

Bloody Root wrote:

Man, What happened to the AP's (and Dungeon in general) being campagin non specific?

Not that I'm complaining, but it seems that this AP is going to be harder to convert (to Eberron that is) then the last 2 AP's.

The Sassirine back drop sounds cool. Yet another paizo product that I "cant hardly wait" for.

Actually, Savage Tide will be easier to convert than Age of Worms. The first adventure will probably be the hardest, but as the campagin goes on and moves further and further into the uncharted territories of the world, it'll be easier to adapt to any campaign.

[James Jacobs]

Craig Shannon wrote:

James, I suggest you skim the original Dunegon's :) I know you edited and compiled the Hardcover from the original but little bits seems to have fallen out of it that are in the Dungeon's that refer to the, as was then, nebulous Sasserine. For a while it was just "the realm's capital city" :) Mind you the stuff from above was pulled from a document I did compiling what sparse bits on Sasserine there where in AP1. I don't think I missed anything but that means I probably did :)

Oh... I've done more than skim those original Dungeon incarnations of the Shackled City adventures. For the most part, though, I'll be taking the info in the hardcover as Sasserine cannon. For example, the actual population of Sasserine's a little bit lower than 21,000 (it's more like 16,000). It's also no longer the capital city of a realm; rather, it's a prosperous free city on the edge of civilization. When we first came up with Sasserine, it was little more than a generic name to hang a few bits of flavor on, and as a result some of that early flavor doesn't quite work when developing the city into a highly-detailed backdrop.

Still, the vast majority of what's been said about Sasserine will still hold true in the Backdrop article.

[James Jacobs]

The Cagewright presence in Sasserine was even more hidden than it was in Cauldron. The Striders don't have much to do with Sasserine (they're more interested in the wilderness and rural regions), but they do have a small presence there. In any event, the Cagewrights are pretty much gone for good by the time Savage Tide takes place, so there's not really anything mentioned about them at all in the Backdrop.

Sasserine itself consists of seven districts, each closely associated with one of the seven "official" churches of the city (Wee Jas, Kord, Fharlanghn, Pelor, Olidammara, St. Cuthbert, and the Azure Cathedral [Osprem, Procan, and Xerbo]).

The temple of Wee Jas in Sasserine does indeed have some internal affairs to deal with, and the temple of St. Cuthbert in Sasserine is now tended by one Rufus Laro. There will be a lot of other easter eggs for fans of Shackled City to track down, rest assured!

[Craig Shannon]

That is a problem with my original notes. They where done before the hardcover came out from perusing the original Dungeons. I am a naughty pixie, I must go back and update based on what is in the hardcover on Sasserine into my now out of date notes :) Such as Sasserine being smaller, and which temples it now has.

Regards major religions, the Azure Cathedral is presumably tied to the sea, and possibly trading. Xerbo or Osprem seem to fit. Also it's the name of a sea in Greyhawk :) As it is missing a gods name is it a sort of generic temple where sea gods are worshipped?

What about hidden cults? Is the Hidden Temple of Nerull still going to be in Sasserine? IMC I linked it to the assassins guild of Sasserine and had it built upon the very first shrine to Nerull that Kyuss built when he made landfall after crossing the Azure. Not too fussed about Hextor, Erthynuul, and Vecna, although orthodox or heretical worshippers might make sense (or be too small to be worthy of mention).

As for Rufus Laro my players will love that :) The Saint Cuthbertian PC felt he lacked backbone and needed toughening up, so he spent most of his down time dragging Ruphus around patrolling the streets, or teaching him how to fight (by hitting him with a mace), and essentially being a drill instructor from hell (he did this to all the priests in the Church). I had Jenya let him do this, particularly as Sacrcem was assassinated and something was clearly wrong with Cauldron, and his militant "old skool" self flagellation hit it with a Cudgel take on Cuthbertism has spread throughout the Church. Having Ruphus promoted just fits so well with my campaign given the time, effort, and money my player invested in his Church, gein he is a Billet and he is now the Pious Templar of the Church of Saint Cuthbert in Cauldron :) I am getting a warm and fuzzy feeling about AP3 and Sasserine :) Apologies for geeking out so much :)

[James Jacobs]

The Azure Cathedral's a place were three different sea gods are worshiped; Procan, Osprem, and Xerbo.

There's a few hidden cults, but the "lurking cult of evil" factor is extremely downplayed. We note the locations of the hidden temples of Nerull and Vecna (the temple of Nerull isn't actually within the city walls, even), and give a few NPC names, but that's about it. Frankly, the whole hidden cult angle is probably the single-most done-to-death element in our Adventure Paths, so I wanted to keep them a very minor part of the Sasserine backdrop. They certainly won't have anything to do with the actual Adventure Path.

Another bit of "Shackled City" that got into the Sasserine backdrop are nobles: The Vanderborens and the Taskerhills, in particular, have important roles in Sasserine.

[Craig Shannon]

James,

Thanks for the responses. Don't you ever take a break? Guess not :) Seems like freelancing gets as busy as contracting. Whilst you are being so loquacious :)

James Jacobs wrote:

David Witanowski wrote:

Is Sasserine considered a part of the Hold of the Sea Princes, or is it an independent city state?
Sasserine was originally established by the Hold, but has since become an independent city state.

David Witanowski wrote:
Where is the Isle of Dread in Greyhawk?
It's about 1,500 miles south of the point where the coastline goes off the map along the Amedio Jungle.

David Witanowski wrote:
Where is Scuttlecove?
It's about 400 miles east of the point where the coastline goes off the map, and about 1,200 miles northeast of the Isle of Dread.

There'll be a map of this whole region and the relationship between the Isle of Dread, Scuttlecove, Sasserine, and the mainland in issue #141.

James, which map? The LGG map or the Dungeon Greyhawk maps? It's just that the Dungeon maps go about 60 miles further south than the LGG maps and I'm trying to plot positions using The Scarlet Brotherhood maps as well.

Regardless it looks like Scuttlecove is in the Vohoun Ocean (Densac Gulf) about 400 miles east of Tamoachan, or 250 miles sou' east of Narisban on South Olman Isle. The Isle of Dread looks like it's about 300 to 400 miles south of The Mist Kingdom or The Pirate Isles in the Vohoun Ocean (Pearl Sea), or south from a midpoint between those two island chains.

To be honest when I first revisited The Amedio Region map I thought the Isle of Dread would be the large island to the south of The Mist Kingdom and that Scuttlecove would be one of The Pirate Isles but no dice as they say.

[txwad]

James, I think you are making a big mistake by having Olidammara, rather than Norebo as one of the seven deities. As we've discussed earlier in the thread, the consensus seems like Sasserine should have been settled by the Suel. Thus, Kord, Wee Jas, and two-thirds of the Azure Cathedral are appropriate as three of the seven faiths. Fharlanghn is fine given the role of the striders in the region and the far-travelled nature of the religion. Pelor and St. Cuthbert also dont bother me as Sasserine is a big and diverse city and these are two very common religions across Oerth as a whole. However, if you read LG canon, it says that Norebo and Kord are the two most popular Suel deities. Thus, having Olidammara, a minor Oeridian deity in place of Norebo, a very popular Suel deity in a city of Suel origins seems like a big mistake to me.

Furthermore, if you have your copy of Bone Hill, we know generally what a temple of norebo should look like and how many players wouldnt want to go to a Church of the Big Gamble in order to interact with the "dodacahedrons of chance?" Frankly, Norebo should win hands down in terms of providing an interesting adventuring nexus over Olidammara. Did you choose Olidammara because of the cross promotion with the recent article in Dragon?

[txwad]

Also, James, what role will the Hadozee play in Savage Tide? On the one hand, they arent very Greyhawk historically, on the other hand, Ive always kinda liked the Yazirians (I mean Hadozee. Frankly, they seem like one of the few new races in the 3.5 books that is worthy of some inclusion.

[Aureus]

I think Mr. Jacobs took Olidammara because he is a core deity (yes I mean both of them :)) No, I think it makes Sasserine more generic, more easily to convert. If you think Norebo would be the better choice in a Greyhawk Campaign go for it.

[Craig Shannon]

I sort of understand txwad's point but I am happy just to get the some extra Suel gods (Xerbo and Osprem) even if they are lumped in with Procan (an Oeridian god). Strictly speaking Xerbo and Opsrem, although husband and wife, are estranged from each other. Also Xerbo and Procan battle alot, so maybe the Azure Cathedral will be a cross between and divorce court and a brawl :)

I will possiby substitute in Norebo (txwad is right, it does feel "better"), particulalrly as he and Wee Jas have had an affair for about a millenium and she has a temple in town. Not going to lose sleep or get over agitated about this though :) All I can suggest is have the AP core, and then have campaign adaptations for Eberron, Forgotten Realms, AND Greyhawk (which could cover exactly this sort of situation).

Until such time as all the Greyhawk gods are in the PHB core cannot be considered true Greyhawk, it more Greyhawk-lite :)

[James Jacobs]

Most of the major religions in Sasserine have to be core deities detailed in the Player's Handbook. Remember; Savage Tide is a "generic" adventure meant to be usable for all campaigns, not just Greyhawk, even though we are still using Greyhawk as the setting of choice for the campaign. In fact, chances are that you won't see words like "Suel" or "Baklunish" or any of the race names used much at all in the adventures (even if we DO set up NPCs so that they fit into those races like a glove).

Sasserine certainly has strong ties to the Suel, but it's not Suel-Only. It's much more open to other races and faiths than Scarlet Brotherhood, and in many ways is a true melting pot of cultures and religions. So even in Greyhawk, using Olidammara shouldn't cause much of a problem.

As for LG canon... those hoping that Savage Tide fits perfectly into LG canon will probably be disapointed. Perhaps not as much as those looking for Savage Tide to fit into Forgotten Realms or Eberron canon, but still. The realities of producing a magazine make it impossible to coordinate canon with something as huge and sprawling as LG.

It'll be close, since Savage Tide and LG both spring from the same tree. But it won't be exact.

[James Jacobs]

Craig Shannon wrote:

James, which map? The LGG map or the Dungeon Greyhawk maps? It's just that the Dungeon maps go about 60 miles further south than the LGG maps and I'm trying to plot positions using The Scarlet Brotherhood maps as well.

All Greyhawk-related map issues in Dungeon will refer back to the one we printed in issues #118–#121. Scuttlecove's about 500 miles southeast of Tamoachan, as the fire-breathing bat flies.

[James Jacobs]

txwad wrote:

Also, James, what role will the Hadozee play in Savage Tide? On the one hand, they arent very Greyhawk historically, on the other hand, Ive always kinda liked the Yazirians (I mean Hadozee. Frankly, they seem like one of the few new races in the 3.5 books that is worthy of some inclusion.

Althoguh there's at least one hadozee in one adventure that's been turned over so far (I think)... in the end, there probably won't be any. Again... Savage Tide needs to err on the side of Core D&D. Introducing a "new" race to the campaign is something that shouldn't be done unless that "new" race plays a major role in the campaign. Simply having one hadozee (or raptorian, or warforged, or whatever) pop up as a single isolated NPC with no context probably won't be happening.

[James Jacobs]

Of course... since many of the adventures and backdrops are still being written (or have yet to be written)... any crazy things this editor might say should be taken with a grain of salt. For example, the Norebo seed has been planted in my head. His name IS mentioned at least once in what I've got so far for Sasserine stuff. The more I think of it, the more it's growing on me. The problem remains that each time we include a cleric of Norebo, we have to include a short sidebar or something that talks about who he is, what his domains are, what his symbol is, etc. And reprinting that stuff tends to eat up word counts (something we're always wrestling with in the magazine)—so if using Olidammara insted of Norebo lets us put in a crucial encounter, we'll use Olidammara.

And it bears repeating. Savage Tide needs to be able to be used not only by Forgotten Realms and Eberron DMs, but by DMs who use other campaign settings or use a home-brew setting. Every time we stray from the three core books, we make it a little bit more difficult for them to run the campaign.

[sad_genius]

This is a little tangential, but IMC I seemingly subconsciously read all of those references to "the realms' capital city" as meaning Greyhawk - even though that's not precisely true. Wishfull thinking I guess.

[James Jacobs]

sad_genius wrote:

This is a little tangential, but IMC I seemingly subconsciously read all of those references to "the realms' capital city" as meaning Greyhawk - even though that's not precisely true. Wishfull thinking I guess.

Actually, the reference to a "realm's capital city" were created when Cauldron was truely world-neutral. Early on, the Shackled City adventure path made no references to any campaign settings (outside of the deity names), and Sasserine was intended to be a "stand in" for whatever big city the DM had close by Cauldrom in whatever campaign world he was running.

The idea of the Adventure Paths all taking place in the same "world" and having interconnected parts didn't really come about until "Shackled City" was over and we were planning "Age of Worms."

[Heathansson]

James Jacobs wrote:

Althoguh there's at least one hadozee in one adventure that's been turned over so far (I think)... in the end, there probably won't be any. Again... Savage Tide needs to err on the side of Core D&D. Introducing a "new" race to the campaign is something that shouldn't be done unless that "new" race plays a major role in the campaign. Simply having one hadozee (or raptorian, or warforged, or whatever) pop up as a single isolated NPC with no context probably won't be happening.

That's too bad. I think encountering one or two hadozee here and there would fit well. It would help give the whole AP an exotic flavor. I think that could be the major role here. And...the fact that they aren't 'core' is allright, because they are so rare and exotic, and encountering one should thus be a rarity. Also, the fact that they are more tropically and seafaring inclined explains why they haven't been encountered on the mainland rarely, if at all.

And I agree, they are one of the most interesting of the newer race offerings. I have a feeling that they have a decent shot at being canon fodder of the future. I could be wrong.

[txwad]

Thanks for the extensive response James. You and Erik are doing a fantastic job overall so dont let my constructive critique overshadow the overall praise. honestly, i had forgotten that olidammara was the core deity and not norebo!

Here are some thoughts for you:

1) in the greyhawk conversion, have notes saying something like "many would replace olidammara with norebo" or even suggest it.

2) one of the critiques Ive given of previous adventure paths was not every adventure needs to be pure fighting. for example, I loved Prince Zeech's banquet. One concept would be to present the 'church of olidammara' in all of the dungeon articles as the Church of the Big Gamble. Then, in the Greyhawk notes, you could of course, note that Olidammara should be replaced by Norebo. The generic and forgotten realms people will be none the wiser to the use of olidammara/norebo. I draw these two concepts together (a little bit of social interaction and olidammara/norebo) with the idea that the 'Church of the Big Gamble' should be much like Len Lakofka depicted it on Lendore Isle in Bone Hill. In another words, PCs go to the Church. Run dicing ritualistic ceremonies where they must roll for the assistance of the priests. Personally, I think it would pretty amusing and of course the PCs will ultimately want to try and cheat which could also make it interesting.

[txwad]

Another thing. Id encourage the players who have a cleric to adopt a home temple in sasserine -- in other words to choose a deity from one of the seven temples or whatever. Frankly, I think it would add a lot of color to the overall adventure path. It would give ready access to a group of npcs. it would force at least one pc into the stance of actually caring about sasserine or part of it, etc.

Id add minor notes in the first adventure saying that this is what it means for a pc to be x level and part of this temple. this is what is expected of him in terms of obligations and this is the resources that he can draw on from the church for certain matters that are deemed important.

Other than the clerics, how else can you CONNECT the PCs to Sasserine at the beginning, at least those pcs who desire to be connected?

[txwad]

A previous thread (I cant find) talked about potential villains or heroes for Savage Tide both for intrinsic merit and also a bon mot for the keen eyed player with a sense of history.

I think its obvious that 'Drawmij' (Im sure you will use a slightly different name like you did with 'Tenser) or one of his apprentices should make an appearance. personally, I thought that Tenser was a little overused so Drawmij should be a little more in the background.

How about Oceanus, from the tribe of Manaus from the Azure Sea in the Saltmarsh series?

How about Rory Barbarossa himself (he escaped death at the last minute or was merely hurt badly) or one of his children, searching for his father's legacy. Much like you guys used that 1/2 dragon as a sidetrack in the Cauldron series, you could use Rory's child as an interesting sidebar on the Isle of Dread. Of course, his child will want to go to the center of the island and find the black pearl immediately.

[txwad]

One other goofy idea is that you could recommend that the DM secretly allow one PC to be Rory Barbarossa's child! Then give that player a little bit of 'secret knowledge', a map fragment, some minor family heirloom to tie him to the setting. Of course, Rory made this child promise that he would seek the Black Pearl in the center of the plateau when he turned 18!

[txwad]

my last idea is trying to tie in a little piece of one of my favorite all time dungeon adventures, nbod's room.

is there a way that you could tie that adventure, the leviathan dagger, or some other prequel or sequel of that adventure into this adventure path?

maybe the presumption could be that the inn that had the problems with Nbod's room is in Sasserine! Maybe lets assume that the adventure was successfully completed and the Leviathan Dagger returned to Sasserine only to be stolen a few years later by a freelancer or a member of the local thieves guild of sasserine. Maybe mysteriously when the dagger is stolen, the inn begins having problems with Nbod's Room again. This time it is a kopru or human tribal agents of the kopru seeking the dagger (maybe the hag was their ally). Maybe the furniture connects to an atoll that is one of the small islands surrounding the isle of dread! This would create an alternate, albeit unreliable means for PCs to travel to the Isle of Dread.

Maybe nbod was an alias ('nobody') often used by none other than Rory Barbarossa! Maybe the Leviathan Dagger has some kind of a linkage (it is a more powerful weapon than it first appears, perhaps if the current pearl in the pommel is replaced by one of the black pearls!). Maybe evil sea creatures unconciously (or in the case of the kopru, conciously) still feel the potential power of the blade.

Anyways, I always thought Nbod's Room was a short gem!

[Peruhain of Brithondy]

Well, if I ever have a chance to run this AP, there will definitely be some Hadozee in it. If not a PC or DMPC, should be pretty easy to drop one in as an NPC sailor on "the PCs' ship" or whatever.

[Craig Shannon]

Thanks for the responses James. I shall be following the fire-breathing bats and adding a brass tack as an X marks the spot on my glued together photocopied maps :)

[Craig Clark]

James Jacobs wrote:

... (even if we DO set up NPCs so that they fit into those races like a glove).

You have a heart-felt thank you for this. Cauldron's NPCs were hard to classify if only because of their 'interesting' racial mix.

[Aureus]

I am relatively new to Greyhawk and wonder how to integrate guns in the world. I thought of something similiar to Ptolus: Guns hail from an ancient empire. In the case of Greyhawk I would chose the Suel Empire, because it almost completely vanished. Everything that is left is a sea of dust. Adventurers explore the Sea of Dust and come back with strange devices spitting fire and iron death! Gnomes and/or Dwarves find a way of unlocking the mytery of the creation of such firearms and begin to sell them in Sasserine. Because of its proximity to the Hellfurnances and the Sea of Dust, Sasserine would make a logical place for those ancient guns. Can any body give some advice or shed light on me?

[bastrak]

Aureus wrote:

I am relatively new to Greyhawk and wonder how to integrate guns in the world.

The Greyhawk canon position is that gunpowder is inert on Oerth and consequently there are no guns.

Of course if you are the DM you have the discretion to deviate from canon in this regard.

[Craig Clark]

bastrak wrote:

Aureus wrote:

I am relatively new to Greyhawk and wonder how to integrate guns in the world.

The Greyhawk canon position is that gunpowder is inert on Oerth and consequently there are no guns.

Of course if you are the DM you have the discretion to deviate from canon in this regard.

Unless of course you happen to worship Murlynd... (perhaps a priest of Murlynd only needs to bless the flintlock... maybe?)