To paraphrase two of your statements,
1) It's the age of Eberron.
2) Forgotten Realms outsells Eberron.
Have I misquoted your meaning in any way, in either instance? Please clarify, and make these two statements mesh.
I never said FR outsells Eberron, but that's besides the point.
This is the period of time when Eberron is being promoted through sourcebooks, adventures, video games, miniatures, convention activites, etc. This isn't the Age of Dark Sun; that time has passed, for now.
It may also be the Age of Forgotten Realms. I wouldn't exactly call it the Age of Greyhawk, although you could call it the Age of Greyhawk Fans in Control of Dungeon and Dragon Magazines (not that there's anything wrong with that). It's also the Age of 3.5. I still don't see the contradiction.
3)Greyhawk is past its prime
In terms of feeding professional game designers, the world of Greyhawk is NOT in its prime. It may be revived, but it's going to take more than Dungeon and Dragon magazines to do this.
4)Greyhawk is too supported in Dungeon
If 4 is the case, why did the Maure Castle issue outsell any other issue of Dungeon? How could Greyhawk possibly be past its prime?
The Maure Castle issue was the 30th Anniversary. It was also a mega-adventure issue, which is rare. One might argue that this issue would be collectible regardless of the world that Maure Castle was presented in.
we all konow that greyhawk is used so newbies can just use the core rule books to run some kick-a$$ adventures. i decided to run AOW in greyhawk even tho ive palyed FR for nearly 15 years. im now really looking forward to another set of adventures set in greyhawk to expand my knowledge of this
very cool world.
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5)Eberron need Paizo to tip its hat
6)Paizo is run by Greyhawk-lubbers(but that's allright).
Count your dungeon covers. Eberron...Eberron...Eberron and on and on.
For Greyhawk lubbers, I see more Eberron support than any other world got back in its day. Dungeon tips its hat, holds the door, buys her drinks, drives her home, and doesn't even try to steal a kiss from Eberron.
The adventure paths are set in GH to appeal to the widest audience possible. They have to be, to sell magazines.
That audience is Greyhawk, which is still in its prime.
If anyone has any other guesses or suggestions for where Sasserine, the Amedio Jungle and the Abyss belong in Forgotten Realms and Eberron feel free to add more to the discussion than arguing over whether conversions are warranted.
Well, I don't know much about Eberron so I'll take a shot at Aber Toril...
Sasserine: Port Nyanzaru (Chult), Tashluta (Tashalar)
Amedio Jungle: Chult, Tashalar, or Maztica
Abyss: well, the Abyss
I must say that I'm intrigued with Takasi's need for arguing for more Eberron content in the AP's. This is not meant to be snarky, insulting, or anything negative.
While I love a good Greyhawk or FRCS adventure in Dungeon I can't say that they have been too hard to convert. It's not about having enough time (my last post took all of two minutes to get my FRCS out and find some jungle areas).
I think there's something bigger going on here. I think it's an overwhelming need for someone to say, "This is official." If someone like Paizo, or Keith Baker himself, or the grand high Wizards of the Coast publish something it becomes "offical" and then people like Takasi can sleep easier knowing that the campaign world in their dining room matches completely with the one of the canon.
I can relate. I used to feel a need to buy every FR book I could get my hands on and try to incorporate all the novels I've read, and make sure it as the exact same Faerun that me and my players were familiar with. It was exhausting to keep up with all of the published material. So I stopped worrying about it so much.
Chill. Play. Have fun.
But one would probably be wrong.
Are you saying that a special edition of Dungeon with a super adventure that celebrates the 30th anniversary of D&D wouldn't be a successful?
Still some juice up in that old Grey Hawk.
I'm not saying it isn't popular, I'm just saying it isn't an avenue at this time for professional game design or support. It clearly isn't anything like it was in the past.
Count your dungeon covers. Eberron...Eberron...Eberron and on and on.
In the last 2 years out of the last 72 adventures only 8 of them have had Eberron material. Of those 8, 3 were reprints of the D&D Open, something Paizo doesn't normally do nor wishes to do in the near future. Of the remaining 5, 3 were non-traditional murder mystery adventures. Of the remaining 2, one was mispelled on the cover and used a very unpopular method of map generation using the tiles from the D&D miniatures. They're tipping their hat, but you're deluded if you think they're doing any wooing. I've yet to hear anyone on the Eberron boards praise Dungeon for its overall treatment of the setting.
While I love a good Greyhawk or FRCS adventure in Dungeon I can't say that they have been too hard to convert. It's not about having enough time (my last post took all of two minutes to get my FRCS out and find some jungle areas).
It isn't about simply swapping names, it's selecting the right areas, organizations and events (if any) that match the adventures.
If the process were really that simple, then it would be no problem at all for Dungeon to make Eberron adventures out of generic modules. They've said it's difficult to properly adapt a generic module. If Paizo doesn't think converting these adventures to Eberron or the Forgotten Realms would do justice to the setting, then why would DMs want to run them in that setting?
If someone like Paizo, or Keith Baker himself, or the grand high Wizards of the Coast publish something it becomes "offical" and then people like Takasi can sleep easier knowing that the campaign world in their dining room matches completely with the one of the canon.
It isn't about being official, it's about being appropriate.
Why are Port Nyanzaru and Tashluta appropriate places? How are they different?
Why are Chult and Maztica appropriate places? How are they different?
Take the Isle of Dread for example. There is already a backdrop from 114 that we can discuss for conversion.
Who are the Olmans in FR and Eberron? Would the Serens work? How are Serens different from Olmans? What other primitive tribal races are there in Eberron? Where is their civilization? What if you used Sarlonans? What kingdom is Thanaclan? Was it around 1300 years ago, or more, or less? What other things were happening in your world around 1300 years ago (or whenever)? In Eberron this might near Q'Barra, as the Riedrans might have established a settlement there. Who are the koprus? What's their relationship with the sahuagin empire of Eberron? Who were the ixitxachitl?
What, if anything, hooks these locations, events and organizations into the world of Eberron and the Forgotten Realms? What elements of Eberron and the Forgotten Realms can be displayed in this backdrop? There are many ways to do this, and it may be easy for some but the more you go into detail the more questions that come up. Providing guidance on the adaptations can help eliminates some of the issues. The conversion notes for Age of Worms, for example, contain many valuable lore, hooks and appropriate name replacements and helped simplify the adaptation process immensely.
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They're tipping their hat, but you're deluded if you think they're doing any wooing.
7)they either are tipping their hat or
8)they need to tip their hat.Which one is it? Maybe I'm just deluded, but that sounds like another contradiction to me.
9)Greyhawk is still popular
10)Greyhawk has lost it.
Dude, nowhere before 3rd. edition was a core PH/DMG based straight off of Greyhawk. So to say WOTC doesn't support Greyhawk at all, is just a wrong statement. Pure and simple.
Greyhawk has never been more popular than right now.
And what does it even matter anyway, when popularity, which is directly linked to consumer spending, doesn't matter in your pseudo-skinnerian market model?
My advice to you is this: the next thesis you decide to defend, make sure all of the supporting arguments thereabouts actually defend said thesis; or you will end up winning a lot of little brushfire conflicts and losing the entire war.
Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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But one would probably be wrong.Are you saying that a special edition of Dungeon with a super adventure that celebrates the 30th anniversary of D&D wouldn't be a successful?
You're totally right! If you check the sales figures, you'll see there is a huge spike for the 25th anniversary, the 20th anniversary, the 15th anniversary, and the 10th anniversary.
It's as if gamers are sitting around, and one of them pulls out their old old redbox D&D set and looks at the copyright date and says "My god! Has it been 10 years already?" Their eyes widen in excitement. They scream "Let's go buy the issue of Dungeon celebrating that anniversary!!!"
Seriously. This happens with the big milestone issues like #100, and #75, and #50. I mean #100 was a double sized issue, the first 3.5 issue, and had a terrific githyanki themed adventure. That thing sold out in a heartbeat.
Edit: Oh wait, you can still buy it and the other back issues I mentioned on paizo. Strange...
I know the anniversary element influenced my purchasing decision. I said to myself "holy cow! D&D is 30. I'm going to go buy Dungeon. I don't care if it's just photocopies of Erik Mona's butt and the lost details of the My Little Pony rpg I love so much."
Seriously.
Then I told my friends that the issue was the 30th anniversary so that they would run out and go buy up all the back issues. They didn't read the adventure, they were way too psyched about the novelty of the anniversary.
Chief Creative Officer, Publisher
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Are you saying that a special edition of Dungeon with a super adventure that celebrates the 30th anniversary of D&D wouldn't be a successful?
No. I am saying that if it had been set in a campaign setting other than Greyhawk, it would not have been as popular.
--Erik
7)they either are tipping their hat or
8)they need to tip their hat.
Which one is it? Maybe I'm just deluded, but that sounds like another contradiction to me.
This is a semantic argument. If you're drinking a glass of water does that mean you no longer need to drink water? There is no contradiction there.
9)Greyhawk is still popular
10)Greyhawk has lost it.
Dude, nowhere before 3rd. edition was a core PH/DMG based straight off of Greyhawk. So to say WOTC doesn't support Greyhawk at all, is just a wrong statement. Pure and simple.
Greyhawk has never been more popular than right now.
And what does it even matter anyway, when popularity, which is directly linked to consumer spending, doesn't matter in your pseudo-skinnerian market model?
The only thing from the Core PH and DMG that's Greyhawk are the deities, and that's only because the domain mechanic requires examples.
And where did I say it mattered?
Again, 9 and 10 are not contradictions. Greyhawk is only around as a product because of the efforts of the RPGA and Paizo. It is still dead as far as professional world design is concerned.
My advice to you is this: the next thesis you decide to defend, make sure all of the supporting arguments thereabouts actually defend said thesis; or you will end up winning a lot of little brushfire conflicts and losing the entire war.
Take your advice and send me a PM or send it to the moderators. Please don't threadjack to simply spew personal attacks.
If I was an Eberron advocate, I personally wouldn't want all Dungeon adventures spoon fed to me, as I enjoy customizing them for my own campaign. By putting a specific Dungeon adventure into a specific Eberron town or region, you're effectively limiting the DM's choice and creativity, which I wouldn't care for.
To me, it's no fun if my Eberron campaign is just a mirror of every other Eberron campaign because of my obsession to make sure that everything fits exactly the way it's "supposed to." Once I've taken a campaign world on, it becomes mine and it will be different.
I took "Hateful Legacy" (another Takasi OMG it's a dead campaign world adventure set in the extinct Barrier Peaks featuring a lost history of a non-professional gameworld adventure) and moved it halfway across the world and completely changed the backstory and bad guys' motivation around to fit my campaign.
Somehow I have a feeling that if Takasi sat down at my future Eberron campaign game table, he'd have a frickin' heart attack if he found out that my "Lords of Dust" were actually just common awakened housecats. I've had those types of players before, FR junkies who absolutely hated my FR campaign because I didn't give a rats ass about who Drizzt was and one guy who left the game in a huff because the Time of Troubles never happened in my world.
But, it's a matter of taste....I really think Takasi is doing his cause more harm than good by hammering his point to infinity. If I was a Paizo editor, I would specifically exclude Eberron content just to piss him off, but I'm of course, nowhere near as professional or thick-skinned as they are.
I will say that your response proves that attempting to communicate with you is functionally impossible, and is not something I will waste another minute doing.
Erik, this thread's communication to you and the staff was very polite and precise. Do you know where the basics you provided in 135 belong in FR and Eberron yet? When you do it would be nice to know, considering Greyhawk fans got this privilege. I made my recommendations, and if people would focus on that topic maybe the communication in this forum would improve. Also, do you know how you're going to do the adaptation notes for Savage Tide? I recommended my preference for online distribution.
All other communication can be seen as secondary amusements to pass the time waiting for more informative responses to the original topic. In some cases it's just blatant threadjacking and personal attacks possibly caused by anti-Eberron sentiment.
By putting a specific Dungeon adventure into a specific Eberron town or region, you're effectively limiting the DM's choice and creativity,
How do their recommendations limit someone's decision?
And if you don't care about the notes then what difference does it make to you?
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Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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All other communication can be seen as secondary amusements to pass the time waiting for the answers to the original topic. In some cases it's just blatant threadjacking and personal attacks possibly caused by anti-Eberron sentiment.
No, I actually am luke warm regarding Eberron. I even consider playing in that campaign world from time to time. I support conversion notes, I think these boards are a great tool for obtaining them.
It's your attitude that causes the attacks. I'm not sure why that's hard to understand. No other poster on this board causes such strong reactions.
Edit: Oh wait, you can still buy it and the other back issues I mentioned on paizo. Strange...
Whether an issue is available or not doesn't necessarily have anything to do with its popularity or success during the initial printing.
Thank you for completely ignoring the second half of my point: mega adventures in Dungeon are few and far between, regardless of the setting.
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Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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But, it's a matter of taste....I really think Takasi is doing his cause more harm than good by hammering his point to infinity. If I was a Paizo editor, I would specifically exclude Eberron content just to piss him off, but I'm of course, nowhere near as professional or thick-skinned as they are.
F2K, you never cease to impress me. I can't help but get involved in this (or any other) petty squable. And then you come and post something humble and intelligent and give me pause.
Thank you. You and Gwydion both deserve credit for keeping this place civil despite my best efforts to make it otherwise.
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My advice to you is this: the next thesis you decide to defend, make sure all of the supporting arguments thereabouts actually defend said thesis; or you will end up winning a lot of little brushfire conflicts and losing the entire war.
How is this a personal attack? Or a threadjack? I'm completely on topic, and this is no more a personal attack then your calling me deluded if I believe something.
If you want me off of your thread, just ask me and I will go away.I don't know how to take a hint that well, but I leave when asked nicely.
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Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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Edit: Oh wait, you can still buy it and the other back issues I mentioned on paizo. Strange...Whether an issue is available or not doesn't necessarily have anything to do with its popularity or success during the initial printing.
Thank you for completely ignoring the second half of my point: mega adventures in Dungeon are few and far between, regardless of the setting.
Okay...
I said to my friends "Hey! Dungeon is doing an epic adventure, this will be totally sweet!"
And they said "What, you mean like the mega adventure in issue 100?"
And I responded, "No way! even better?"
They were shocked. "You mean like a 12 part adventure path?"
I shook my head. "Even better! One issue of Dungeon has one huge adventure for 12th level characters!"
They almost cried with joy. Except for this one guy in my group - he's a pain. He said "What if we don't like this adventure? Normally, an issue of Dungeon has a variety of adventures, so that if I don't like one, I have many to choose from. Also, I only like Eberron adventures because that's the setting WotC supports. Is this Eberron?"
I was dumbfounded. What else could I say. Then, it hit me! "Yeah, but it's the issue celebrating the 30th anniversary of D&D."
They wet their pants with joy.
Edit: Also, how does the availability of an issue not somehow reflect on its popularity? A popular issue is in demand, people buy it. When limited quantities exist, it becomes scarce and unavailable. Thus, there is some correlation between scarcity and popularity.
Unless maybe those fiends at Paizo did a shorter print run than normal to increase scarcity. I wouldn't put it past them. Or, maybe the really really popular issues (you know, like the ones with Eberron adventures) are distributed via scans and other blackmarket channels.
Yeah. That makes sense.
Are you saying that a special edition of Dungeon with a super adventure that celebrates the 30th anniversary of D&D wouldn't be a successful?
Are you implying that it should be? Of course it should be but it's not so black and white. Take a look at all of the other anniversary issues in the Dragon/Dungeon world - how many are sold out? Perhaps it's because one THE biggest names in D&D history (and Greyhawk) wrote an adventure? Would you buy a "mega-adventure" with Keith Baker's name on it? How about Gygax? How about Keith Baker after he's been away from the game in fifteen or twenty years?
It isn't about simply swapping names, it's selecting the right areas, organizations and events (if any) that match the adventures.
Well, it's your game so swap whichever name, area, or organization you want. Make any appropriate changes you want.
The problem is that you want canon. As I said, I've been there. It's a kind of self-esteem issue where I felt that I wasn't smart enough or good enough to make a decision for my campaign. I needed R.A. Salvatore or Eric Boyd, or WOTC to give me something official for my campaign to work. You've already offered some Ebberon suggestions in this thread. Pick one, use it, why do you fight so hard for something "official?"If the process were really that simple, then it would be no problem at all for Dungeon to make Eberron adventures out of generic modules. They've said it's difficult to properly adapt a generic module. If Paizo doesn't think converting these adventures to Eberron or the Forgotten Realms would do justice to the setting, then why would DMs want to run them in that setting?
I'm saying that it IS that simple and you should do it yourself. Why would Paizo need to do it for you? Instead you pressure and argue for Paizo to do that work for you.
I think what you don't understand is that for every time someone says it's too hard to adapt a module we need to keep in mind that the process of adaption is different for a DM than it is for a publisher. I can scribble notes on a legal pad and have my own stuff ready to go. Publishers must worry about page counts, word counts, liscensing, editing, etc. and then lay it all out it a format that they deem worthy of publication. So with the full plate that the folks at Paizo have I think it's virtually necessary for us DM's to do some footwork ourselves.
It isn't about being official, it's about being appropriate...
Don't kid yourself. It is about being official. Every DM around the world knows her table, her players, and her campaign better than anyone else. It's up for the DM to decide what's appropriate. You've decided to give that responsibility to someone else.
Why are Port Nyanzaru and Tashluta appropriate places? How are they different?
Why are Chult and Maztica appropriate places? How are they different?
Because they've got jungles, pirates, and port cities. Do you know where there are jungles, pirates, and port cities in Eberron? Use those cities. If I (as DM) say there are pirates in and around the Great Glacier of Faerun my campaign has ice pirates! I made 'em up and they're appropriate because I said so.
Take the Isle of Dread for example. There is already a backdrop from 114 that we can discuss for conversion.
Who are the Olmans in FR and Eberron? Would the Serens work? How are Serens different from Olmans? What other primitive tribal races are there in Eberron? Where is their civilization? What if you used Sarlonans? What kingdom is Thanaclan? Was it around 1300 years ago, or more, or less? What other things were happening in your world around 1300 years ago (or whenever)? In Eberron this might near Q'Barra, as the Riedrans might have established a settlement there. Who are the koprus? What's their relationship with the sahuagin empire of Eberron? Who were the ixitxachitl?
You feel like you can't choose can you? You feel like it won't be... right. If you just choose and make your own connections to the campaign world you can answer all of those questions for yourself. You're stuck in this cycle of letting other people shape your campaign world when it should be the opposite. You take the clay others like Keith Baker, Eric Boyd, and Paizo offer and shape your campaign.
Chill. Play. Have fun.
By putting a specific Dungeon adventure into a specific Eberron town or region, you're effectively limiting the DM's choice and creativity,How do their recommendations limit someone's decision?
And if you don't care about the notes then what difference does it make to you?
I was talking about the adventures that are specific to a certain Eberron location, not the notes for the AP. Sorry for getting a bit off track from the thread topic. Sorry for being a little harsh on you in my earlier post, too. I should just ignore this argument, but I failed my darn Will save again.
Sebastian...thanks, but I thought I was being a bit harsh on Takasi, but....he.....just.....brings.....it.....out......
Timault--excellently put....most excellent. The obsession to be "canon" in everything--well, I think that it's something people can grow out of. I was there for a while as well with FR from about 87 to 89 and then I decided "f@+& it...this ain't worth the headache or the expenditure."
Of course, if writing something for publication, you can't ignore the Canon....and the FR campaign I play in now is "canon" because a book was put out three years ago that incorporated all the things that were coming out in the 80's and 90's, so I don't have a problem with being "canon" if it catches up with me when I'm ready for it.
Well, it's your game so swap whichever name, area, or organization you want. Make any appropriate changes you want.
Why use Eberron then? And why use the Adventure Path to begin with?
The problem is that you want canon.
I'm not looking for anything official, I'm just looking for good suggestions and help.
Pick one, use it, why do you fight so hard for something "official?"
Again, it doesn't have to be "official", but it should be professional and consistent if I'm going to pay for it. Otherwise, why use Dungeon at all?
Don't kid yourself. It is about being official. Every DM around the world knows her table, her players, and her campaign better than anyone else. It's up for the DM to decide what's appropriate. You've decided to give that responsibility to someone else.
I also give up the responsibility of crafting adventures to Paizo. Gaming isn't a job, it's a hobby.
You haven't answered the original question. What's the point of using a shared world if you end up changing everything about the world that's shared and run adventures that don't tie in any of the shared experience?
Because they've got jungles, pirates, and port cities. Do you know where there are jungles, pirates, and port cities in Eberron? Use those cities.
But how are they different? If you can randomly pick some "Generic Jungle Place" then what's the point of using any of these locations to begin with?
I don't know, maybe to add depth and make the story connect with a greater world?
If I (as DM) say there are pirates in and around the Great Glacier of Faerun my campaign has ice pirates! I made 'em up and they're appropriate because I said so.
How do conversion notes prevent you from still doing this?
You're stuck in this cycle of letting other people shape your campaign world
Isn't that exactly what the adventures paths are to begin with? What else is it except to help you shape your world? Your argument suggest the adventure paths are only for lazy DMs.
And to a certain extent you're right. I would be willing to bet that there are more people playing D&D right now that don't use Dungeon at all than those who do. What do you think? And how is this relevant to this topic?
Of course, if writing something for publication, you can't ignore the Canon....
As Eric Boyd said at one point, these adaptation notes are not considered canon. They're just very good recommendations. It's all about fitting licensed setting material into the paths, not vice versa.
Why use Eberron then? And why use the Adventure Path to begin with?
This is a logical fallacy known as begging the question. You're not looking for solutions or opinions, you just keep asking questions of people in order to seem superior in your argument. The reality is that you offer little to your own questions. That being said I'll answer your question...
You use Eberron, or Forgotten Realms, or Dark Sun, or Battlelords of the 23rd Century because something their sparks some inspiration. Because you want to adventure there, to create a story with your friends. The Adventure Path is a storyline, but it's not a script. It's a tool, a medium, but it's up to each DM to mold it as they see fit.
I'm not looking for anything official, I'm just looking for good suggestions and help.
Yet you seek suggestions and help by belittling those who disagree with you and arguing ad naseum. From a few paragraphs written months before Savage Tide comes out you have already shared a few ideas as to how the storyline can connect with Eberron. It sounds like you're doing exactly what you want Paizo to do. So why the arguments?
Again, it doesn't have to be "official", but it should be professional and consistent if I'm going to pay for it. Otherwise, why use Dungeon at all?
True. A published adventure should be professional and consistent. But we all use Dungeon because it inspires us in some way. Sometimes we use it as a script because that's all the energy and time we have available. But more often than not we use bits and pieces, NPC's and encounters, to enhance our personal campaigns.
I also give up the responsibility of crafting adventures to Paizo. Gaming isn't a job, it's a hobby.
So you admit that you've given up any and all responsibility for deciding what's appropriate for your campaign? That you let someone else create it all for you? That you will only use the suggestions offered by these certain and particular sources?
You haven't answered the original question. What's the point of using a shared world if you end up changing everything about the world that's shared and run adventures that don't tie in any of the shared experience?
See, the thing about sharing is that it goes both ways. I take what I would like and I offer something to add to the community. I learned early on the playground that the kids who just take and demand things were not sharing.
I'm sure that you will agree with me here... Many of us use a shared world because a lot of the work is done for us. Histories, religions, politics are all laid out for us to give the campaign world depth. Where we will disagree is that I see these pregenerated campaign worlds as springboards that allow me to go farter and further. You see them as boundaries. You want more, you want to swim deeper but you seem to be wary about going into unchartered waters.
But how are they different? If you can randomly pick some "Generic Jungle Place" then what's the point of using any of these locations to begin with?
I don't know, maybe to add depth and make the story connect with a greater world?
Once again more questions...
I'll bet that when the Paizo team was designing the Savage Tide they came up with the generic plot: pirates, jungles, and Demogorgon. Then they said, where in the Core "Greyhawk-lite" world can we put it? Where is the Jungle Place? I'll bet you that Keith Baker when he was designing Eberron said to himself, "I'm going to need a Jungle Place."
And you keep trying to connect to a "greater" world. Since we all don't DM around the same table these connections when you get right down to it are moot. If you want Keith Baker to keep writing updates of the entire timeline and world everytime the year changes in Eberron or Ed Greenwood to update the entire current events of Faerun you've got another thing coming.
How do conversion notes prevent you from still doing this?
They don't. But that would be an inappropriate choice would it not? I was trying to offer an example of how it's okay to create something specific for your personal campaign world.
Isn't that exactly what the adventures paths are to begin with? What else is it except to help you shape your world? Your argument suggest the adventure paths are only for lazy DMs.
And to a certain extent you're right. I would be willing to bet that there are more people playing D&D right now that don't use Dungeon at all than those who do. What do you think? And how is this relevant to this topic?
The Adventure Paths are there to give us fodder, clay, a medium with which to create. A DM shapes her world, not an adventure. I choose to use all, parts, or none of an Adventure Path.
And my argument suggests no such thing. You suggested that my argument suggests that. Please do not confuse my words with your opinions. I'm saying that you are afraid to go against the canon, to break the boundaries of what is presented in the Eberron campaign setting.
And yes, I agree that most people are not likely using Dungeon adventures or at the very least an Adventure Path. But I would guess (read: not a statement of fact but an estimated opinion) that the buzz created by the first two AP's is drawing more players to Dungeon.
Your original post asks for more suggested connections to Eberron and Forgotten Realms. When Mr. Jacobs responded with an answer that seemed to be too vague for your liking you immediately began to pepper him with questions and offer answers to your own questions. While I can't speak for James I can say that from my perspective the tone and style found in your response to Mr. Jacobs seems very depreciating and rude. So the thread degenerates to what it has become...
I at least tried to offer FRCS analogs in an earlier post. But that supercillious tone of your posts puts people on the defensive. Especially when you try to argue against someone based on what you infer.
But how are they different? If you can randomly pick some "Generic Jungle Place" then what's the point of using any of these locations to begin with?
I don't know, maybe to add depth and make the story connect with a greater world?
This is a good point, and one that has been defended on both sides:
I liked Shackled City beacuse it was generic enough to run anywhere with little or no changes. However, without the DM making certain specific changes, there is no connection to the game world.
On the other hand, I liked Age of Worms because it had very specific ties to Greyhawk, and with little or no changes you have a good connection to the game world. However, without making some--and at times many--changes it wouldn't fit well in other campaign worlds.
I think that making Savage Tide back to a more generic setting is the right choice, but I hope to have some good, specific guidance on how to capture the feel of each game world, including more Greyhawk notes.
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Quote from Tiamult:
I'm sure that you will agree with me here... Many of us use a shared world because a lot of the work is done for us. Histories, religions, politics are all laid out for us to give the campaign world depth. Where we will disagree is that I see these pregenerated campaign worlds as springboards that allow me to go farter and further. You see them as boundaries. You want more, you want to swim deeper but you seem to be wary about going into unchartered waters
He said farter....that rules
This is a logical fallacy known as begging the question. You're not looking for solutions or opinions, you just keep asking questions of people in order to seem superior in your argument.
No, I'm asking for clarification.
If you feel something I've said is wrong or you disagree with it by all means post about the opinions, conclusions and facts presented.
If you feel I'm presenting something in an inappropriate way, please send me a PM or send something to the moderators. Please do not waste this thread by posting to simply analyze me as a person and how I post. It's rude and will only serve to degenerate the discussion into personal attacks.
The Adventure Path is a storyline, but it's not a script. It's a tool, a medium, but it's up to each DM to mold it as they see fit.
An Adventure Path is made of modules. Modules are made up of background, synopsis, encounters, maps, events and room descriptions. Adaptation notes provide guidance for altering these items (generally the background). They are also a tool, a medium, but it's up to each DM to mold it as they see fit. I honestly don't understand the difference.
I'm not looking for anything official, I'm just looking for good suggestions and help.Yet you seek suggestions and help by belittling those who disagree with you and arguing ad naseum. From a few paragraphs written months before Savage Tide comes out you have already shared a few ideas as to how the storyline can connect with Eberron. It sounds like you're doing exactly what you want Paizo to do. So why the arguments?
Please reread my original post and the replies from Paizo. I asked them what they felt was appropriate, as they know the adventures better than I do. They aren't sure yet, but they will come up with answers eventually. In the meantime, I provided some suggestions based on what little I know in the hopes that it might help them. It's a bug in their ear so to speak.
Again, it doesn't have to be "official", but it should be professional and consistent if I'm going to pay for it. Otherwise, why use Dungeon at all?True. A published adventure should be professional and consistent. But we all use Dungeon because it inspires us in some way. Sometimes we use it as a script because that's all the energy and time we have available. But more often than not we use bits and pieces, NPC's and encounters, to enhance our personal campaigns.
While I don't doubt that the AP can be used to mine goodies here and there, it's structured for the busy DM. All of the encounters, maps and events you'll need to present to your players from 1st to 20th+.
I also give up the responsibility of crafting adventures to Paizo. Gaming isn't a job, it's a hobby.So you admit that you've given up any and all responsibility for deciding what's appropriate for your campaign?
No, I can and add material to my campaign beyond what Paizo presents. However, I've taken the opportunity they've given me when I use their material. You would consider that "giving up my responsibility". Whatever. In any event, although I might add more, if they provide something I would like it to be presented with notes for adaptation. It's all about their presentation. I might add more, but I won't add any of their material to my campaign if it isn't presented properly.
Where we will disagree is that I see these pregenerated campaign worlds as springboards that allow me to go farter and further. You see them as boundaries. You want more, you want to swim deeper but you seem to be wary about going into unchartered waters.
I don't see them as boundaries when creating my own material from scratch. However, if something doesn't fit within the boundaries then why should thousands of DMs waste time reinventing the wheel to figure out how to place something? Take Redhand for example. This is a new kingdom in Eberron. To an experienced DM it might be obvious that this should go in the Lhazaar Principalities. However, not everyone is going to see this right away. They may get confused. They HAVE been confused. There have been several posts by people who've asked this question.
Or take the drow in Three Faces of Evil. If you're new to Eberron, you may know enough to know that drow aren't normally seen in Eberron. Let's say some of the players know this as metagame knowledge. The DM decides to use them as drow. The players act in character by saying they've never seen these dark elves before. They want to learn more. Since it's so unusual, they may take this as an odd plot point. At this point the DM could just say that drow are now common in his version of Eberron, but this opens all sorts of questions. Are they from Khorvaire? Did they play a role in the last war? What do the Aerenal think of them? The Valenar? The Houses? This is great if the DM wants to fill in this backstory, but what if he's only doing this because he couldn't think of a suitable replacement and didn't anticipate his players search for answers on the issue? What's the harm in having an expert or two say "Drow are usually rare; dolgaunts make a good substitute, especially if they're mind flayer servants." Eureka! I totally didn't know about dolgaunts, that's really neat!
That small piece of information is also a springboard, and now the DM has some background on this if his players have questions. And since it's a shared world, he can talk to his fellow Eberron DMs online and ask them for advice on his world building.
I'm saying that you are afraid to go against the canon, to break the boundaries of what is presented in the Eberron campaign setting.
Now that's just insulting. By running the Age of Worms I'm breaking the boundaries. Is Tenser described in the ECS? Or the Wind DUkes and the Rod of Sevent Parts? Or Dragotha? Of course not, but I'm incorporating these classic icons of D&D into Eberron. Am I doing it alone? No, I'm guided by the conversion notes. Am I relying solely on the conversion notes to dictate my campaign? Of course not. Does that make the notes any less valuable to me? No.
I at least tried to offer FRCS analogs in an earlier post.
It was nice that you swapped names, but you didn't provide any reason for why you chose the locations other than basic geography. I don't expect you to be able to at this point because you don't know the adventures. (Well, you could do a little bit if you have 114). The editors do know them, or at least better than we do, and they are working on adaptation notes (despite how you feel about them). This thread was simply a call for a few bones, but some people don't think us scurvy dogs deserve 'em.
Also to all the anti-adaptation note advocates, I just want to add that it's difficult to adapt a campaign when you don't have the entire story. We only get each adventure piece-meal, and while we could wait for all of them to come out some of us don't want to. Wouldn't it be helpful if an insider provided notes?
For example, let's say there were no conversion notes and I wanted to run the Whispering Cairn. I have some background info on Kyuss, but not much. I decide to make him a member of the Blood of Vol. After a few issues I realize this doesn't work out as well as I'd planned. Personally I feel the conversion notes have done a fair job of preparing us for what's ahead. With Keith and Eric on board from the beginning I think it'll be even better with Savage Tide. It's a little disappointing that Paizo can't provide the basic direction yet, but this thread still has another few months before the Path begins.
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It's a little disappointing that Paizo can't provide the basic direction yet, but this thread still has another few months before the Path begins.
Sit back and relax is my advice. We're still months away from Savage Tide even starting. We're far more focused now on getting the first few adventures in (to say nothing of getting all the other issues between now and then ready to go... a group that includes our 20th anneversary issue... one that requires more work than normal). Keith and Eric can't write conversion notes for adventures that don't exist yet. We can't do previews on conversion notes that don't exist yet. And in the grand scheme of things, conversion notes are far from the most important part of any Adventure Path, so they're not a priority at this point in the development of Savage Tide.
Yawn.....
You guys need to exchange phone numbers. This has gone on too long.
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I got nothing against Eberron; I plunder it thanklessly for my homebrew, or anything else. Shifters are cool. Warforged have plenty of plug'n'play potential. My personal feelings on it are this: I just don't see the utility in making a big financial and/or emotional investment in a system that will, in my opinion, go the way of the dinosaur in 5 years.
It's a nice concept, but I've seen a lot of real nice concepts get put out to pasture in my day. I've seen nicer concepts, with a lot more potential get sent to the glue factory. Irregardless of sales figures, or popularity, or Dungeon support.
A bit off topic, but probably of interest to Takasi. I never would have paid any attention to Eberron if it wasn't for Paizo and Dungeon or Dragon magazine. However, having read some of the cool Eberron adventures that Paizo published and reading some of the Eberron articles in Dragon (most notably, the Lords of Dust by Mr. Baker), I've come to the conclusion that Eberron might be worth exploring as a future campaign world....at least it's cool enough for me to plunder if I'm not going to run an Eberron game outright.
I have the Sharn HC and I have the ECS on order, due to arrive in 7-10 days. So, despite your apparent belief that Paizo isn't doing enough to support the "official and professional" game settings (whatever that means), they have exposed me to enough Eberron material in the last year and a half that I've gone out and bought it.
(Well, Dryder gets more credit than Paizo, actually, but I think you get my point)
You are one tenacious person, Takasi. You would have made a good torpedo plane pilot in WWII, no matter how much flak explodes around you, you are only going to see that aircraft carrier in your gunsights until you get your torpedo off. Even if you get shot down, you're going to swim towards the enemy, clutching a knife in your teeth.
Timault--excellently put....most excellent. The obsession to be "canon" in everything--well, I think that it's something people can grow out of. I was there for a while as well with FR from about 87 to 89 and then I decided "f#*~ it...this ain't worth the headache or the expenditure."
Of course, if writing something for publication, you can't ignore the Canon....and the FR campaign I play in now is "canon" because a book was put out three years ago that incorporated all the things that were coming out in the 80's and 90's, so I don't have a problem with being "canon" if it catches up with me when I'm ready for it.
Thanks, f2k. At least there's someone else who also has recognized they too had a problem and decided to say "f--- it." And after reflecting on your post I've come to realize that it might indeed be a maturity issue. Maybe you've got to spend a couple hundred bucks on all the canon and official material you can get your hands on when you say to yourself... enough is enough.
A bit off topic, but probably of interest to Takasi. I never would have paid any attention to Eberron if it wasn't for Paizo and Dungeon or Dragon magazine. However, having read some of the cool Eberron adventures that Paizo published and reading some of the Eberron articles in Dragon (most notably, the Lords of Dust by Mr. Baker), I've come to the conclusion that Eberron might be worth exploring as a future campaign world....at least it's cool enough for me to plunder if I'm not going to run an Eberron game outright.
I have the Sharn HC and I have the ECS on order, due to arrive in 7-10 days. So, despite your apparent belief that Paizo isn't doing enough to support the "official and professional" game settings (whatever that means), they have exposed me to enough Eberron material in the last year and a half that I've gone out and bought it.
Funny, Until about a month ago I was pretty "neutral" on Ebberon as I just haven't had the need or interest to get into a new setting. However, thanks mainly to Takasi's hamfisted trolling on three different message boards, I now loathe it and have no interest in it to the point of readily partaking in the backlash against it as it concerns Dungeon. I always thought Dungeon had a pretty good balance of material setting wise, I am looking forward to the new WotC Ravenloft material coming up in fall and thought maybe we might see an adventure in pages of Dungeon to coincide . ( Point being I never assumed any type of bias within Dungeon, I just always assumed they will cover the bases as they see fit and as material is available) If I thought for one second Erik and James were doing anything other than laughing at Takasi's monotony , I'd be canceling my subscription in a heartbeat. I can't believe I am alone there.
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I can't believe I am alone there.
You're not. I went to the comic store today and looked at all the gaming crap. When I saw the Eberron stuff my blood pressure went up about 15 points on the systolic. I really never gave a damn one way or the other about it, I got the original campaign setting book shortly before financial hell came over my household and I haven't bought a game book in a year or so.
I also think there's just no talking to some people, and I'm just gonna throw in the towel on this one. And I wish I had sooner, it would've saved me a whole lot of aggrivation. I just got carried away. But I think you should throw in the towel too, because it's hopeless. Well, bye bye. I'm going to go knock down a brick wall with my head.|
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I can't believe I am alone there.You're not. I went to the comic store today and looked at all the gaming crap. When I saw the Eberron stuff my blood pressure went up about 15 points on the systolic. I really never gave a damn one way or the other about it, I got the original campaign setting book shortly before financial hell came over my household and I haven't bought a game book in a year or so.
I also think there's just no talking to some people, and I'm just gonna throw in the towel on this one. And I wish I had sooner, it would've saved me a whole lot of aggrivation. I just got carried away. But I think you should throw in the towel too, because it's hopeless. Well, bye bye. I'm going to go knock down a brick wall with my head.
Ditto on all fronts. The only thing that keeps my attitude about Eberron in the luke warm gear is the people on these boards that I respect who enjoy it. And the adventures Dungeon does publish for the setting tend to be terrific reading.
I guess the other thing I would say about Eberron is that the setting is bigger and better than the antics of one person. He's not worth the attention of Paizo or us, and he's not worth writing off a potential source of fun and ideas.
I had only read Takasi's original post and James Jacob's initial response and had not returned to this thread since then. Then, I glanced at Heathansson's post about putting his head through a brick wall and I got curious. Just read every post and I've got to say, Takasi, you are one tanacious SOB! I agree with a previous poster about taking up a profession as a trial lawyer.
I could care less about the specific topic (ie, adaptation notes), actually, except that I happen to be involved in the AP and would like to see what people are saying about it.
Anyway, you'll get your wish, Takasi. No worries. Most of us are currently still sending ideas back and forth so that all of the modules mesh. Some of us are much further along than others. And some of us that live in the UK (not saying any names) have been spending a lot of time ribbing the other authors ;) (which I always enjoy reading, BTW)
Basically, what I'm saying is that there's really no need to keep hammering away on this particular thread unless you're one of those people that just have to have the last word.
Either way, I give up. It's polite, it's gracious, and it doesn't offend every single person listening to my incessant rambling.
There will be years of new players finding this site for the first time, and I'm always going to be available to hear their perspectives and discuss issues with them, whether it's related to Eberron, the Adventure Paths or whatever. If you don't like what I'm saying please don't read my threads, let alone post on them.
While it's quite noble of you to offer your wisdom to future generations of players, a quick look at this thread might suggest that you are being compulsively argumentative.
Quite a few people have said something about the tone of your 'discussions.' Once again, please give it a rest -- you've had your say.
Can we please, pretty please, with sugar on top, drop it now?
Jack
To put this into perspective, my disappointment in the lack of corresponding Eberron and FR information for the 135 sneak peak is vastly overshadowed by the news that was presented.
To those who believe there should be no notes in the first place, to paraphrase Mr. Jacobs: DMs can't write conversion notes for adventures they don't have. A DM with knowledge of a setting might be able to adapt one adventure but without seeing all of the events Paizo has in store for the campaign it will be much more difficult to develop a quality adaptation.
I think most of us can also agree that there's a clear and reasonable explanation for the selection of Eberron and Forgotten Realms notes versus Dark Sun, Mystara and other settings that are no longer supported by Wizards of the Coast.
I've said several times how I'd like to see the notes presented (online as a non pdf web enhancement, similar to the preview articles). Does anyone else have any thoughts or suggestions? Would you prefer the notes online or in the magazine?
Speaking of Mystara, does anyone have thoughts on adapting Savage Tide to that setting? Shouldn't be too hard I think given that both the Isle of Dread and Demogorgon exist in that setting.
Håvard
As well as a thriving undersea civilization, and a bunch of halfling pirates.
Really, there should by all rights be a Known World adaptation -- the Isle of Dread BELONGS to Mystara. Any chance of hiring Bruce Heard and/or Aaron Allston to handle this?
Speaking of Mystara, does anyone have thoughts on adapting Savage Tide to that setting? Shouldn't be too hard I think given that both the Isle of Dread and Demogorgon exist in that setting.
Håvard
As well as a thriving undersea civilization, and a bunch of halfling pirates.
Really, there should by all rights be a Known World adaptation -- the Isle of Dread BELONGS to Mystara. Any chance of hiring Bruce Heard and/or Aaron Allston to handle this?
you guys out there know that Greyhawk still rocks! FR and Eberron are ok but Greyhawk has history man!
On the one hand, I love AW's online adaptation notes (pdf is the way to go), both the quality and detail.
That said, I can't help but suspect that the staff of Dungeon has done something quite clever here: placing AP3 on the edge of civilization minimizes any history and setting that needs to be accomodated. Usually :)
Just a thought.
Jack
(pdf is the way to go)
Why do you prefer pdf for the notes?
I understand how this would be valuable for printing maps and character handouts, but what's the advantage for text?
There are several advantages to publishing text on the web instead of pdf:
-Appending: You can cut and paste the notes into a word processor and expand them with your own notes
-Print Formatting: It is easier to format text that is cut and pasted than it is to format pdf documents
-Independent: Paizo can publish the notes without waiting for the maps and handouts to be available
Ideally Paizo could publish the notes online as a web enhancement and then bundle them in later with the pdf supplement.
-Appending: You can cut and paste the notes into a word processor and expand them with your own notes
just some FYI on PDF's use "hand tool" and "select" you CAN copy and paste out of any PDF with just the free reader download. For graphics, use camera tool to copy and paste on the clipboard to any graphics program, works like a charm.
-Print Formatting: It is easier to format text that is cut and pasted than it is to format pdf documents
Not particulary.
-Independent: Paizo can publish the notes without waiting for the maps and handouts to be available
Doesn't make much sense, unless for some reason the conversions are done before the magazine goes to print, which I seriously doubt. Once the art's done the time consuming thing is formating the supplement for release, not juggling the content.
Ideally Paizo could publish the notes online as a web enhancement and then bundle them in later with the pdf supplement.
Twice the work why? Just for you?, No one else seems to be demanding this. You could also do your own Ebberon conversion notes and be done with the thing as soon as you see fit. With Savage Tide being set on the edge of civilization I dont see much demand for rigid locations with any sort of Canon continuity. There are only so many places it could be in either
GH,FR or Eb. Seriously you seem to want to make a whole lot of extra work for the editors that are things usually left up to us as GM's ourselves. Your entire point of these conversion notes is lost on me. If you care so much about how Keith Baker or Eric Boyd will interpet AP3 adventures in their particular setting just email them it probably be faster.
If I thought for one second Erik and James were doing anything other than laughing at Takasi's monotony , I'd be canceling my subscription in a heartbeat. I can't believe I am alone there.
No, you're among a multitude, I think. I like Eberron and it annoys me to no end to see the likes of Takasi driving people away from it. How sad. He's the second-most arrogant and argumentative person I've met on any messageboard.
just some FYI on PDF's use "hand tool" and "select" you CAN copy and paste out of any PDF with just the free reader download. For graphics, use camera tool to copy and paste on the clipboard to any graphics program, works like a charm.
The formatting does not carry over as accurately as it does from a web browser. For example, line returns are generally added after every line, making it difficult to insert into other documents. I don't see the advantage to using a pdf if you're only dealing with text.
Doesn't make much sense, unless for some reason the conversions are done before the magazine goes to print, which I seriously doubt. Once the art's done the time consuming thing is formating the supplement for release, not juggling the content.
What do you mean by "formatting the supplement for release"?
There have been several quotes from the past where the editors have blamed the delay of supplements on coordination. It takes the staff about a day to get everything together, but they must find a day when they can do this.
Twice the work why?
It isn't twice the work. 95% of the work for the adaptation notes are writing, editing and approving them. This isn't twice as much as that.
With Savage Tide being set on the edge of civilization I dont see much demand for rigid locations with any sort of Canon continuity. There are only so many places it could be in either GH,FR or Eb. Seriously you seem to want to make a whole lot of extra work for the editors that are things usually left up to us as GM's ourselves. Your entire point of these conversion notes is lost on me. If you care so much about how Keith Baker or Eric Boyd will interpet AP3 adventures in their particular setting just email them it probably be faster.
Again, there are good adaptations and bad adaptations. Paizo doesn't like simply swapping proper nouns, so why should a DM or his table? This has nothing to do with being official, it's about helping DMs build more cohesive campaigns with a little more depth and open ended, less tourney/convention play.
oldcoast, the notes are "lost on you", but can't you at least understand that it's difficult to adapt a campaign if you don't have all the information? If you're only getting information piece meal then isn't it better to have notes from an insider who sees the big picture?