Is it possible to properly speculate on Snape's outcome without really discussing the first six books?
First, my answer to the question, then a rant.
Answer:
Nothing in particular will happen to Snape. He will live.
Rant:
Honestly, I was extremely disappointed with book six. Not because of the the ending, but because of the utterly useless drivel that comprised the first 550 pages.
I sometimes wondered if Rowling got help on books 3, 4 and 5, because they are *much* more well-written than the first two. Book six was a step back to the poor plot development, incomplete dialogue between characters, and lack of character develepment of supporting characters of book two (which up until book 6 was my least favorite).
I've spent many hours over the past several years speculating on things like Snape, the horcruxes, the Weasleys, etc., but the poor quality of this sixth book was such a let down, that I'm not even a little bit excited about the last book. After I saw the Goblet of Fire movie, my first thought was "Wow! What a great movie!" My second thought was "Wow! Book six was so bad, I wonder how they're going to make it into an interesting movie!"
JK Rowling deserted all of the fore-shawdowing, all of the character development, all of the secondary and terciary plot lines, so that things like "what will happen to Snape" just don't matter anymore.
I am speculating that Snape will turn out to be a hero. Snape and Dumbledore were arguing about something in the forest earlier in the book. I speculate that they were arguing about the necessity of the major climax in book 6.
Utak
Eqach book gets more mature, my guess is that Snape will be something of an anti-hero does the right things in the end though not necessarily for the right reasons.
Dumbledore trusts him and he is rarely wrong about people.
I think Snape wasn't really a bad guy. Dumbledore knew he was going to die. At what point he knew is up for speculation, but he knew he wouldn't survive. What better way to get an ally firmly into the enemies camp then to have him murder the strongest ally as a ruse.
To me the book was better than the order of the pheonix, but not by much. I have enjoyed all of them for what they are. Light reading with some interesting characters.
I love the Harry Potter books, and I've loved each book more than its predecessor!
I think Snape will end up being a kind of anti-hero, as aforementioned. I have the feeling that he's not interested in being Voldemort's flunky nor in fighting Voldemort. I think he has some unique motivation, which is why he's worked for Dumbledore all these years and why he did what he did at the close of book 6.
I know, that doesn't really say much but I'm not a soothsayer!
Here's my theory. Snape started out infiltrating Hogwarts with evil intentions, but after the fall of his dark lord gradually came to hope that his past life of evil might really be forgotten and that he might find true friendship and redemption through abandoning his old life. He really wished his master was dead to the point of convincing himself against all reason. Now, sadly, out of cowardice he feels forced against his will to go back to his "true" life and commit the betrayals he hoped to avoid, feeling incapable of standing up to the wrath of Valdimort.
My pet theory (though by now it looks to be unlikely) is that Nevel Longbottom is the true hero and savior who will overthrow Valdimort. Harry was marked, but the mark in fact designed to merge Harry's soul with Valdimort's preparing him to become the vessel for the aging dark lord. He uses the same wand. He was intended to become Slitheren House. He instinctively knows parselmouth. My theory is that eventually Harry will become the real badguy and it will fall to the kid who everyone thought of as a loser and a footnote in the chronicle of the epic deeds of their buddy Harry--to save them all from their hero the wundurkind gone horribly evil.
It would make me smile to see Harry Potter fall to darkness and become the real villain and the overlooked underdog rise to greatness. I love that kind of reversal, particularly where the hero is so overwhelmingly full of himself and charmed by fate.
I also thought it would be fun if in light of recent events *erhem* that looking back into Dumbledore's records that he had been secretly abusing his position as administrator of the school to magically fudge the house cup scores and even the readings of the sorting hat to put all the kids he liked into Griffandor and all the kids he hated into Slytherin. That would explain why rather than being all powerful and evil, why most of the Slytherin kids are pretty weak and stupid. It would also explain why the Weseley's aren't Hufflepuffs and why Hermione isn't a Ravenclaw--even though they really really should be.
Snape as the new headmaster?
Sirius Black as the new defense against the dark arts teacher?
I think that is the tack I would take.
Any thoughts on University level training in the Harry Potter Universe?
Is their interest in Harry Potter as a young man?
Books on other characters in that world?
I think Dumbledore 'faked' his own death, with or without Snape's knowledge and cooperation. I think Dumbledore returns in Book 7. What happens then, you tell me.
Snape loved Lily.
He was a damaged and miserable young man.
He feels guilty that Lily died.
Harry's scar is a reminder of her death.
Snape loves Harry like a son.
Snape has had to use occlumency to stay close to Voldemort.
He has had to bury his feelings for Harry to do that.
I think Snape is the true hero of the series, as he has had to sacrifice his career, his relationships, his chance to mentor Harry as he would have liked to, and his reputation in the world of magic.
What would you do to protect the ones you love from a telepathic monster?
Snape loved Lily.
He was a damaged and miserable young man.
He feels guilty that Lily died.
Harry's scar is a reminder of her death.
Snape loves Harry like a son.
Snape has had to use occlumency to stay close to Voldemort.
He has had to bury his feelings for Harry to do that.
I think Snape is the true hero of the series, as he has had to sacrifice his career, his relationships, his chance to mentor Harry as he would have liked to, and his reputation in the world of magic.
What would you do to protect the ones you love from a telepathic monster?
I like your spin on things.
Snape loved Lily.
He was a damaged and miserable young man.
He feels guilty that Lily died.
Harry's scar is a reminder of her death.
Snape loves Harry like a son.
Snape has had to use occlumency to stay close to Voldemort.
He has had to bury his feelings for Harry to do that.
I think Snape is the true hero of the series, as he has had to sacrifice his career, his relationships, his chance to mentor Harry as he would have liked to, and his reputation in the world of magic.
What would you do to protect the ones you love from a telepathic monster?
I do agree on first four lines, but after that I think it gets more complicated...it is quite obvious Snape hated James, and no doubt jealousy about Lily is a big matter in that...and since Harry is often mentioned to look a lot like James, I think Snape's dislike of Harry is genuine (and he probably blames Harry for death of Lily).
That said, I think he is still one of the good guys (and Draco will also reform himself in the last book). Rowlings has before portrayed some moral ambivalence in all the characters, both good and bad, so it wouldn't be far off to have a good guy who is not a nice person, like Snape.
I don't like Snape. He is an interesting character, but Jo does an excellent job of making me hate him. Just the same, I am tempted to think he is actually on the right side. By doing what he did, he is even closer to the dark lord, and the order still has a spy. The problem is, noone seems to know it. Well, that might actually be the trick of it, but you get the idea. I agree that JK completely departed from her standard formula for book 6, but I still had fun with it.
Much more fun than the 4th movie. Although it has grown on me as "something to put on" when I need a "potter fix", I was just so disappointed with its representation of so much material. I thought they had the absolutely wrong take. Dumbledore charges, screaming at harry, for his name coming out of the goblet of fire? Dumbledore's spell coming through the door being no different than the same spell cast by anyone else? That was on of the biggest letdowns. In the book, the air around him burns with power. I always imagined this as heat coming off of pavement in the summer, just emanating off him. I get that they didn't have to do it my way, but they had such an opportunity here and they did nothing. Why was Voldemort so crazed? He seemed next to lunatic most of the time. Hardly composed, although certainly brutal. After I saw it, I was contemplating not seeing the rest of them. I do have to admit, the dragon and resurrection scenes were really cool, though, and by the time the next movies arrive, I will get around to lining up for them.
I am with the cats comments above; it would make a good story and deception if the master wizard Dumbledor actually did some magic and faked his own death with Snape's help. I think Snape is the linchpin for the whole thing; will he choose good or evil; that is the tension that makes this whole story worthwhile; Harry; to me is just a belligerent and unlikable kid suffering from years of abuse and loss, will be a real struggle for him to grow up and be a good guy.
While anything could happen; a good story might be that Harry falls into becoming just like Voldemort to try to kill Voldemort and Harry spends some time reveling in his dark power than has Severus bring him back to being a good guy and restoring Harry thereby equalling the debt between their families. Might be cool if Nevel is leading the pack of wizzies that are hunting down the bad Harry. With Severus' help Harry could realize that he is becoming the new generation of Voldemort, but worse and Harry could throw off those shackles of evil. The scene could close have Snape sitting tea with Dumbledore and Severus saying you were right master, things proceeded as you saw, your plan worked beautifully and we have broken Voldemort and reclaimed Harry....
But then, she is probaly not that clever, the books do seem to be going downhill...ah well, will read em anyway.
I believe Snape was always a mole in Valdemort’s camp. That’s how everybody found out about the “prophecy” so fast; Snape told Dumbledore and Co., then was sent on to Valdemort so he wouldn’t blow his cover, so Valdemort could hear the bad news, so the Death Eaters could get their morale whacked, etc. Dumbledore has always trusted Snape, and this is the reason. He and Snape are the only two that know, because more than that would risk the secret. Just because Snape’s always been a good guy doesn’t mean he can’t still dislike Harry because of James. Any teacher can get nasty with the kid of a former school rival; it doesn’t mean they’re the Antichrist.
I believe Dumbledore is actually dead. The Death Eater(s) who examined the corpse afterwards were experts and wouldn’t have missed a clue. The only possible cover for Snape was the perfect cover, Dumbledore’ real death.
I agree with the “Neville is the real hero,” theory. It’s just too tempting… We’re gamers, people! Most of us are long experienced DM’s with reputations for pulling off nasty and/or sneaky S&^*! This is perfect! Let’s remember a couple of basic concepts about prophecy, shall we?
1) The harder you try to avoid it, the more solidly you nail yourself into it.
This comes from way back in Greek theatre with Oedipus (kill your father, marry your mother), but it still works. Like a fish on a line, the more one struggles, the more thoroughly the hook is set. When Valdemort tried to kill Harry (to avoid the prophecy) he started the chain of events for his downfall, then and now.
2) Prophecy cannot be accurately interpreted until after it is fulfilled: only then will its meaning(s)/reference(s) become clear.
Look back at the prophecy (see Spoiler below). This might be talking about one person, or it might be referring to two. The first two lines and the last line seem to refer to one person, given the reference to the ability to destroy Valdemort and the time of birth. But, the 3rd and 4th line DO NOT have to refer to the same person. This is beautiful. Everyone thinks Harry is The One: just like prophecy to make sure it can be fulfilled by having all the efforts of the victim turned towards a straw man. Both Neville and Harry were both born at the end of “the 7th month”. Harry’s birthday is one day after Neville’s, so Harry’s B-day is closer to the end than Neville’s which is probably why Valdemort went after Harry, not Neville. Since the prophecy doesn’t specify/require the latest B-day, both are acceptable, as far as it’s concerned. Both their parents had “defied” Valdemort on more than one occasion, so they both qualify there. Harry is the only one “marked” as far as we know, but let’s examine a sub-point here.
The prophecy says that the one marked will be “his equal”. If Harry’s abilities are equal to Valdemort’s how can either defeat (or overcome) the other? They’re balanced, in prime opposition, diametrically opposed at all points, use the simile, metaphor, allusion, (or whatever you find most comfortable). Neither is capable of gaining any ascendancy over the other. So, another person is needed, someone not “equal” to Valdemort.
The prophecy also says the one marked (Harry) will have a power the Dark Lord knows not. Now this can be interpreted several ways: is unaware of, cannot conceive of, is incapable of attaining, etc. The people in the story seem to reflexively go with “love” because of the death of Harry’s parents. But it could as easily be Friendship (Hermione, Ron, Neville, et al) or Loyalty (Neville in particular, because of Harry’s kindness), Honor, or any of the more positive aspect of human behavior/emotion/philosophy that Valdemort just doesn’t “get.” That’s where Neville comes in. He’ll be viewing it as saving Harry’s live, not slaughtering the Dark Lord. Somehow he will end up being there when Harry and Valdemort go for the final gusto. Whether he comes along knowingly, ends up there by accident, or the trouble comes to him, doesn’t matter. Neville and the big blow off will be in the same area. While Valdemort and Harry are locked in futile opposition, Neville gets the ultimate “backstab”.
Just to muck things up, lines 1 and 5 do not specify gender, either, while lines 2 & 3 do. These people do magic. Their whole life is ruled by calendars far older than the modern Gregorian. So, they’re very likely using a lunar calendar, but definitely pre-Gregorian. Before Julius and Augustus Caesars added themselves to the calendar rolls, the seventh month used to be September! As I recall, Cho Chang’s mother and Hermione are the only two characters mentioned that have birthdays that were during an alternate 7th month, September. The deliberate gender neutral case of lines 1 & 5, coupled with an old-calendar view of the 7th month could be pointing to Hermione as the Dark Lord Slayer. Weak, but possible.
Also remember: Rowling is British. They do love their Shakespeare and their Poetic Justice. Harry gets all the notoriety and fame early on, then is paid off with peace and quiet when he inherits Black Manor, while Neville starts off obscure and becomes everyone’s Darling when he offs Valdemort. Both of them get Poetic Justice.
I guess that’s enough for now…comments?
2) born to those who have thrice defied him, born as the seventh month dies...
3) and the Dark Lord will mark him as his equal, but he will have power the Dark Lord knows not...
3) and either must die at the hand of the other for neither can live while the other survives...
4) the one with the power to vanquish the Dark Lord will be born as the seventh month dies...
Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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Let's put a little spoiler here:
I believe Dumbledore is actually dead. The Death Eater(s) who examined the corpse afterwards were experts and wouldn’t have missed a clue. The only possible cover for Snape was the perfect cover, Dumbledore’ real death.
Dude, his symbol is a freaking phoenix. The only way she could telegraph the fact that he can come back from the dead and make it more obvious would be to call him Lazerus. ;-)
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Good idea.
My guess is that the journey will illuminate to him the true source of his strength: his friends. He will return with the understanding that he can no longer shun them but must embrace them, and that only by working together can they save the day. Neville will be instrumental in the final victory, because the prophecy does indeed relate to him just as it relates to Harry.
Severus Snape will turn out to be a good guy in the end, completing his own heroic journey and bringing the dramatically necessary "sudden reversal" that is, itself, a literary archetype.
Taking the underworld connection one step further, I almost wonder if J.K. Rowling won't play up that aspect in a truly dramatic fashion, with Harry leading an army of Voldemort's victims back to the land of the living to deliver his final defeat...
Maybe not, but I wouldn't put it past her.
I also suspect that the initials on the slip of paper Harry and Dumbledore retrieved refer to Regulus Black, and that he will be the key to setting Harry on his journey into the underworld.
Anyway, Rowling does love symbols and isn't terribly subtle about them sometimes. If you pay attention to the symbolism spread throughout the books, with an eye to the classic archetypes of mythology, it's easy to see where the final chapter is heading.
And then there's the title. "Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows." I mean, come on...connect the dots, readers. :)
If I turn out to be way off base, I reserve the right to disavow this post in its entirety. :)
If I turn out to be way off base, I reserve the right to disavow this post in its entirety. :)
Naah, you can always say that your version would have been better. I like it, at least...
I believe Dumbledore is actually dead.I agree with the “Neville is the real hero,” theory.
2 things real quick. JK has stated that Dumbledore IS dead, but there is still some part or scene to do with him in the next book that was really hard for her to write. I imagine this is probably a pensieve memory or some other kind of letter.
Second, she has also said that Neville being the "other" boy of the prophecy has in no way singled him out as a champion (in hiding or otherwise). Through the prophecy, Voldemort marked Harry, which means that only he is the one referred to. Neville is in fact an ordinary boy.
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Snape as the new headmaster?
Sirius Black as the new defense against the dark arts teacher?I think that is the tack I would take.
Any thoughts on University level training in the Harry Potter Universe?
Is their interest in Harry Potter as a young man?
Books on other characters in that world?
I will go for a spoiler: Sirius Black doesnt survive the new movie. He appaernly dies in the attack on the Ministry of Magic down at the Parliament...
As to Snape: I'm still on the fence over his murder of Dumbledore. He is attempting to safeguard the life of young wazhiznem.
And no University training, Harry Potter gone rogue wizard hunting for Snape and the others...
SO my prediction is: Harry Potter Goes bad and kills Snape
I hoestly would like to see Snape as a major character in the next book without him being a necassarily evil person.
I would also like to see Harry die during or after a duel with Voledmort so that some one who is actually an intersting character and possess an intellect greater than that of your average goldfish could become the primary character. My preference would be Fred and George. I think Dumbledore should stay dead and Hagrid should die too (mabye this could drive Harry over the edge after defeating Voldemort so that someone could kill an insane psycopathic Harry).
I know that I am somewhat outspoken on my opinions of what should happen in the next Harry Potter book so I'll now just sit quitley and see what the response to this is.
I know that I am somewhat outspoken on my opinions of what should happen in the next Harry Potter book…
I don’t necessarily disagree with your sentiments but I have to keep some things in mind:
1) Rowling is British and the Brits love their poetic justice. Killing Harry off (along with a slew of others) just wouldn’t be “cricket” according to those rules. Harry has to get something good out of this when it’s all said and done, and butchering everyone he knows just wouldn’t fit the bill. He’s done nothing inherently wrong to merit such punishment. Not even a twisted Karmic debt-collector couldn’t argue a good case for it.
2) Rowling is British and the Brits love their Shakespeare. Harry is not a classic Shakespearean tragic hero (where the essence of what make him the hero eventually leads to his downfall). So the dying thing probably isn’t in the mix from this perspective either.
3) The stories were originally intended for a broad audience of kids (mostly young teenagers) not a hardened group of RPG veterans who might prefer (and maybe even expect) to see 300 level blood and guts even in a Mother Goose rhyme. Rowling has a much bigger audience to pander to than us.
4) What about Ron and Hermoine? If Harry and Hagrid (and a whole lot of others) die, do they too? If so, what did they do to deserve it? If not, why tear their lives up that way for no reason. The Dark Lord is going down for good this time and it should be on an “up” note, not leaving behind the tattered remnants of people and families that will only make more Neville’s if not more Harry’s.
Like I said, I don’t necessarily disagree with your sentiment, I just don’t see it all happening that way. Too many other things getting in the way.
Lol, Goldfish hehe; I dont see Harry dying either as he has lived a charmed life and everyone overlooks all of his inadequacies for the hope of the promise that he brings to the world. Snape is an interesting family; kinda funny how this series is a lot like Star Wars in that it is about the unfinished business left from the father to the son. Snape is twisted in there pretty good.
I found Mrs. Rowling's explanation of Snape's motive for "killing" Dumbledore to be utterly inadequate from a psychological point of view. You can help a moron like Draco in many ways without having to kill somebody. If Snape's truly been a bad guy all along, okay, (not particularly compelling from a story standpoint, as thus far developed, but...). I imagine Mrs. Rowling has some sneaky stuff for Snape/Dumbledore in book 7
Snape will do just as a chaotically neutral based character should do.
Get hammered.
I think Snape is LN if anything.
I love the books even though at first I didn't want to.
My thoughts:
1)Snape hates Lordy V more than he hates Harry. Snape is motivated primarily by hate and will likely die in the end, saving Harry or somesuch.
2)Harry won't die but I think it will be a bittersweet victory.
3)It will take the team of friends to defeat the baddies.
4)Dumbledore is dead and he ain't comin' back.
5)I like pie.
You are all forgetting the protection Harry had when his mother sacrificed himself to save him as a baby. Until Voldemort took his blood, he couldn't touch him.
What if Dumbledore sacrificed himself to give Harry that protection again? The one thing Harry has that Voldemrt does not is love. Dumbledore even states in book 6 that it's an alien concept for him. In another book he mentions it's a primal magic of sorts.
Remember near the beginning of the last book when Snape took some sort of blood oath with that girl?
What was that all about? Who has he sworn his life to protect?
It probably wasn’t Dumbledor. Unless, Snape knows Dumbeldor has created Horcruxes to protect his soul, and thus killing him was not really killing him.
Maybe it was for Fitch’s cat!
It was Draco that Snape took the blood oath for, I believe.
Actually, Neville is "marked" in a way. He's always had to live with the idea of Voldemort due to what was done to his parents. The "mark" isn't visable, yet it is still there.
As for Dumbledore, due to the nature of the heroic journey he had to die or somehow get removed from the action. The removal of the mentor is close to the end of the journey, but there are still a couple steps to go.
Now Snape, is interesting. Unfortunately I am unable to comment much as I haven't read very far into the sixth book. I do know however what happens between Snape and Dumbledore, due to Entertainment Weekly putting the whole Good Snape vs Evil Snape in boxed text. In BOXED TEXT, gah... as a gamer my eye went to that first! Everyone knows boxed text is important... It also didn't help that their Spoiler Warning was in the corner on the opposite page.
I do like the idea of the twist in the story such as, Neville or Hermione is the real hero. However as Harry has been the center of the whole thing and has pretty much suffered through the hero's journey up to now, it will seem sort of cheap to switch heroes on us in the last book.
It will be interesting to read if Neville is the agent of Voldemort's death.
Harry will probably have one of his hand's severed, and Ron will pilot the Falcon (or broom, if you will) in an action hero escape sequence.
Now, who's baby is Hermione having?
JK has also said that the prophecy could only mark one child. meaning, Harry. Neville is destined for nothing more than a perfectly ordinary life as far as wizards in the middle of a wizarding war go.