Does Stunned = Helpless


3.5/d20/OGL


Here's another silly question:

Can you Coup de Grace someone who is stunned?

O heck, while I'm at it - inspired from a certain demon tactic in a recent Dungeon - when using "Project Image" you "project an image of yourself". Is that an image of yourself as you normally look or an image as you look now (i.e. what about polymorphed casters and the like)?

Cheers,
C.

Dark Archive Bella Sara Charter Superscriber

No. Stunned means can't take any actions, drop the items in your hands, lose your Dex bonus, and take a -2 to AC. You don't fall down or become prone. When a condition causes a character to become helpless, it states that fact in the condition (see, for example, paralyzed or unconcious). Only a helpless foe may be coup de gras'd.

As for the illusion question, I'd say it looks like what you currently look like, but I don't have any sort of authority to site.

Paizo Employee Director of Narrative

Cernunos wrote:

Here's another silly question:

Can you Coup de Grace someone who is stunned?

From the SRD:

Stunned
A stunned creature drops everything held, can’t take actions, takes a -2 penalty to AC, and loses his Dexterity bonus to AC (if any).

Helpless
A helpless character is paralyzed, held, bound, sleeping, unconscious, or otherwise completely at an opponent’s mercy. A helpless target is treated as having a Dexterity of 0 (-5 modifier). Melee attacks against a helpless target get a +4 bonus (equivalent to attacking a prone target). Ranged attacks gets no special bonus against helpless targets. Rogues can sneak attack helpless targets.

So, no you can't.


Anyone think this might be DM discretion? A pinned creature is "bound" but in the reading of pinned it doesn't say specifically that a pinned creature is helpless yet a bound creature is considered helpless by the reading of helpless. "or otherwise completely at an opponent’s mercy" This key phrase makes it really seem to be up to the DM(But then again everything is, right?) and the reading of stunned sounds pretty helpless. Drops items, can't take any actions, loses AC and Dex. Sounds damn helpless to me. One could argue that the duration of most stuns don't last particularly long and is a temporary state, but aren't most helpless conditions temporary? A sleeping opponent could wake up, a bound person can break free, an unconscious person could regain consciousness. Seems semantically up to conjecture to me.


GuestEleven wrote:
Anyone think this might be DM discretion? A pinned creature is "bound" but in the reading of pinned it doesn't say specifically that a pinned creature is helpless yet a bound creature is considered helpless by the reading of helpless. "or otherwise completely at an opponent’s mercy" This key phrase makes it really seem to be up to the DM(But then again everything is, right?) and the reading of stunned sounds pretty helpless. Drops items, can't take any actions, loses AC and Dex. Sounds damn helpless to me. One could argue that the duration of most stuns don't last particularly long and is a temporary state, but aren't most helpless conditions temporary? A sleeping opponent could wake up, a bound person can break free, an unconscious person could regain consciousness. Seems semantically up to conjecture to me.

The pinned condition reads: "Held immobile (but not helpless) in a grapple." That means that a pinned character can still act, but is pretty much limited to trying to escape the pin, or using solely verbal/mental actions.

Similarly, a stunned character is not completely unaware and helpless--they take a penalty to Dex and lose their Dex bonus to AC, but do not have their effective Dex dropped all the way to 0 like a helpless character does. Defending yourself doesn't require an action, so stunned characters can still defend themselves--they'll just be very bad at it for as long as they remain disoriented from being stunned.


There is a feat for that. That generally means you can't do it without the feat.

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