First I have to say, I had complete faith in the Wachowskis going in but even then--looking at it boggles the mind.
Here they are, going from a trilogy of what to my mind are three of the best films ever made, to a remake of a comic book--a DC comic book--about a guy in an El Vago mask with knives taking out fascists in a techno version of England.
And it was wonderful! You cut away the red bug eyed robots and the simulated reality and kung-fulishiousness of the Matrix and you have here crystalized, the Wachowski brothers political philosophy. I came out of it politically charged and looking to question a lot of the ideas about the world around me. An action movie and I came out thinking deeply. Just props to the guys.
I haven´t seen it yet (will go on saturday), but it has fascinated me already.
I found this site on it, which has a lot of material on the comic books, and something on the movie. MTV has an interview with Alan Moore, who just hates it when his stories are made into movies. His critique seems understandable. Read especially the last paragraph.
I´m looking forward to viewing it, and I hope they synchronized the voices adequately. But I will probably buy the book as well.
Stefan
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Such a good movie. I especially think that a lot of it hits close to home, that is, if you take into consideration that this is definitely a reality in which some very extreme things have happened. Still, it makes a statement that I think everyone can agree with or at least understand. I didn't have any idea what the movie was about going into it, but I absolutely loved it.
It was outstanding, despite some alterations to the original storyline. Terrific entertainment with an important message.
The movie touch upon many good principles pertaining to too much government especially in light what is happening here in the United States. Our government is treasonous and has intentionally pushed aside the principles behind the Constitution. The part in the show I did resent was the intent to validate a reprobate mind condoning homosexuality. Take that part out of the movie and the movie would have been perfect.
The movie touch upon many good principles pertaining to too much government especially in light what is happening here in the United States. Our government is treasonous and has intentionally pushed aside the principles behind the Constitution. The part in the show I did resent was the intent to validate a reprobate mind condoning homosexuality. Take that part out of the movie and the movie would have been perfect.
Okay, I'll take the bait.
One of the things I particulary enjoyed about the movie was the various illustrations of the ways a nation-state can exploit the baseless fears of its population to create "enemies" and maintain control. Of course, one of the biggest baseless fears in our society is the fear of homosexuailty. Without that plotline in place, one of the the most emotional points in the movie would have been lost.
The movie touch upon many good principles pertaining to too much government especially in light what is happening here in the United States. Our government is treasonous and has intentionally pushed aside the principles behind the Constitution. The part in the show I did resent was the intent to validate a reprobate mind condoning homosexuality. Take that part out of the movie and the movie would have been perfect.Okay, I'll take the bait.
One of the things I particulary enjoyed about the movie was the various illustrations of the ways a nation-state can exploit the baseless fears of its population to create "enemies" and maintain control. Of course, one of the biggest baseless fears in our society is the fear of homosexuailty. Without that plotline in place, one of the the most emotional points in the movie would have been lost.
I don't get that. Where is fear in morality? Now I can see ones fear of their creator. Le:18:22: Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination.Plus I don't hate homosexuality, I hate the homosexuality that rules peoples lives, but to examin this statement we have to deal with the spirtual aspects of life. Most people are either ill prepared or simply blind to this reality. Ro:8:6: For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. But what we have in this movie is the means of making evil, good and good, evil. Isa:5:20: Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter! In todays societies we have managed to blur the two with some form of humanism as if there is no distinction. Now as for the writers I am pretty certain they could have made up a different scenario to further extend the idea of the plot. But it showed a baseless immoral story in a fashionable base moraly reprobate society. 2Tm:3:1: This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come. 2Tm:3:2: For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy,... I guess you get the picture. GBU.
Dude - I got a response, but we've already highjacked this thread enough. Shoot me an e-mail at weaslfish@yahoo.com, and we can continue this conversation in a more appropriate forum.
Dude - I got a response, but we've already highjacked this thread enough. Shoot me an e-mail at weaslfish@yahoo.com, and we can continue this conversation in a more appropriate forum.
OK
To get back to the movie, I liked the end in the comic better than that in the movie. Did anyone else compare ?
Stefan
To get back to the movie, I liked the end in the comic better than that in the movie. Did anyone else compare ?
Stefan
Oh Stefan, you do realize you're forcing me to go get the comic to see the ending you're referring, don't you?
It's okay, I haven't read a graphic novel since O'Barr's The Crow, and when I saw V Is For Vendetta I was thinking it was time to try another.
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I saw the movie last night, I was kind of enjoying it up until the "wanker brothers" started drawing totally idiotic false parallels to current events in the US. No that is not troll bait, its just my opinion. You are allowed yours, I have mine, lets just leave it that.
If you want someone to do a fake British accent at least hire someone that can maintain the same fake British accent throughout. You know who I am talking about...
Overall thumbs down. I am so glad I didnt blow money for this in the theatre.
I haven't seen the movie yet, but when I was in the bookstore I saw that there was an audiobook of the novelization based on the script of the movie based on the comic book. That's gotta be some kind of record for adaptations based on adaptations.
-Vic.
.
couldn't it be ripped to mp3 format for just one more added step?
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I thought it was a rather excellent movie. It was entertaining, somewhat intelligent, and, most importantly, gave people the space to discuss topics of real importance. There have been many occasions when I have wanted to discuss politics or the environment or social issues or some such matter with my friends, but have been unable to divert the conversation away from LARP or D&D long enough to reach more than a very shallow depth. For some reason, "V for Vendetta" empowers people to offer discourse on the state of our world today, and I wholeheartedly support that.
Was the action movie as intricate as the graphic novel? Of course not, it's an action movie! The point of this adaptation seemed to be making the story more accessible to a broader range of audiences.
There seems to be a creeping sentiment that there is something very wrong with our country and world today, but many people are hard-pressed to articulate exactly what that might be. V gives audiences a vocabulary by which to converse about matters of great importance.
This is quite possibly one of the finest films I've seen in the past year or two. It was stunning, well done,and politically challenging.
Art exists for several purposes, but if it does not raise the level of debate on important issues, and challenge misuse of authority in a time as violent and corrupt as our current, then it is a waste of effort in my personal opinion.
This movie rocked. It got me really charged up, and ready to get more involved in politics, even if it is only possible for me at the local level to exact change for the better.
Fantastic stuff. More movies like this, Syriana, Good Night and Good Luck, Crash, Thank You For Smoking, Who Killed the Electric Car, An Inconvienent Truth should be made. Mostly V was great cause it did what a lot of the others I listed above did politically while still being a total thrill-ride and joy to be sucked into (Syriana and Good Night and Good Luck are also heavily political and very very well done and enjoyable to watch actually).
Go V!!!
"Remember remember the 5th of November..."
Good Night and Good Luck is a fantastic movie. Love it.
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This is quite possibly one of the finest films I've seen in the past year or two. It was stunning, well done,and politically challenging.
Art exists for several purposes, but if it does not raise the level of debate on important issues, and challenge misuse of authority in a time as violent and corrupt as our current, then it is a waste of effort in my personal opinion.
This movie rocked. It got me really charged up, and ready to get more involved in politics, even if it is only possible for me at the local level to exact change for the better.
Fantastic stuff. More movies like this, Syriana, Good Night and Good Luck, Crash, Thank You For Smoking, Who Killed the Electric Car, An Inconvienent Truth should be made. Mostly V was great cause it did what a lot of the others I listed above did politically while still being a total thrill-ride and joy to be sucked into (Syriana and Good Night and Good Luck are also heavily political and very very well done and enjoyable to watch actually).
Go V!!!
"Remember remember the 5th of November..."
If you go in for politically challenging movies, check out Lord of War with Nicholas Cage. It's some of the best stuff I've seen.
If you go in for politically challenging movies, check out Lord of War with Nicholas Cage. It's some of the best stuff I've seen.
This movie is awesome!!! I knew I was leaving a really good one off my list from last year and this was it! Thanks Heath! Crazy-political and really good movie.
I forgave Natalie Portman for all three Star Wars prequels after seeing V for Vendetta.
I forgave Natalie Portman for all three Star Wars prequels after seeing V for Vendetta.Dude! Did you see the Professional?
Cinematic masterpiece
Jean Reno rules.Cinematic masterpieceI forgave Natalie Portman for all three Star Wars prequels after seeing V for Vendetta.Dude! Did you see the Professional?
Ronin. With Jean Reno & Robert de Niro. Fantastic movie. One of the first movies I saw with my sweetie when we started going out.
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Ronin. With Jean Reno & Robert de Niro. Fantastic movie. One of the first movies I saw with my sweetie when we started going out.Jean Reno rules.Cinematic masterpieceI forgave Natalie Portman for all three Star Wars prequels after seeing V for Vendetta.Dude! Did you see the Professional?
Robert de Niro rules.
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This is quite possibly one of the finest films I've seen in the past year or two. It was stunning, well done,and politically challenging.
Art exists for several purposes, but if it does not raise the level of debate on important issues, and challenge misuse of authority in a time as violent and corrupt as our current, then it is a waste of effort in my personal opinion.
This movie rocked. It got me really charged up, and ready to get more involved in politics, even if it is only possible for me at the local level to exact change for the better.
Fantastic stuff. More movies like this, Syriana, Good Night and Good Luck, Crash, Thank You For Smoking, Who Killed the Electric Car, An Inconvienent Truth should be made. Mostly V was great cause it did what a lot of the others I listed above did politically while still being a total thrill-ride and joy to be sucked into (Syriana and Good Night and Good Luck are also heavily political and very very well done and enjoyable to watch actually).
Go V!!!
"Remember remember the 5th of November..."
I would add movies that have a moral or social theme, like "Brokeback mountain", "mystic river", "million dollar baby", Ken Loach's movies, and also many movies from the 30s to the 60s.
However, I have seen "V for vendetta", I had read the comics several times (I don't really like comics, but I had enjoyed this one very much), and I think that if the comics is really great, the movie is quite good also !!
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I found the irony in the politics absolutely delicious, particularly since it seems to have gone over the heads of so many of the fans. Simply:
The book posed the question, "Is the violence and death necessary to overthrow an oppressive dictatorship, and the subsequent period of anarcy and the violence and death associated with it, justified by the potential free society that can arise from the anarchy?" However, it didn't answer the question, it just left it to the readers to make up their own minds.
The movie, by taking such a ham-handed approach in both presenting the "background" to the oppressive dictatorship depicted, and in giving such a definitive answer, has, rather than being just a simple political lampoon of a particular administration, become instead a justification of everything said administration has done.
A truly delicious irony indeed!
The only thing that could possibly exceed it would be if that is what the Wachowski Brothers intended, making it an equal satire on the fans of such movies that focus more on cheap moralizing instead of entertaining.
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I just liked the little touch with the Stan Getz songs playing when she woke up in each of their respective houses. I think the first one was "The Girl From Ipenema," about longing for a girl you'll never have, and the second one was "Quiet Nights of Quiet Stars" I think; they're both off the same album, with Getz, Jobim and Gilberto doing bossa nova.
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If you go in for politically challenging movies, check out Lord of War with Nicholas Cage. It's some of the best stuff I've seen.This movie is awesome!!! I knew I was leaving a really good one off my list from last year and this was it! Thanks Heath! Crazy-political and really good movie.
Woah. Completely missed that. I dig it the most.
I can't wait to read #140--bullywugs and stilts--that's got to be good.|
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The movie, by taking such a ham-handed approach in both presenting the "background" to the oppressive dictatorship depicted, and in giving such a definitive answer, has, rather than being just a simple political lampoon of a particular administration, become instead a justification of everything said administration has done.
How so? I don't really think they pulled punches with presenting V as a monster; a badass, intelligent monster, to be sure, but still quite assuredly morally ambiguous. Maybe I don't understand your comment, as I'm not sure what you see as a justification.
As mentioned earlier in this thread, the graphic novel and the movie are two distinctly different creatures, both of which are enjoyable and meaningful in their own ways.
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How so? I don't really think they pulled punches with presenting V as a monster; a badass, intelligent monster, to be sure, but still quite assuredly morally ambiguous. Maybe I don't understand your comment, as I'm not sure what you see as a justification.
As mentioned earlier in this thread, the graphic novel and the movie are two distinctly different creatures, both of which are enjoyable and meaningful in their own ways.
The moral question presented is intended as:
"Is the chaos and death caused by the period of anarchy following the removal of an oppressive dictator justified by the end of the oppression, and the potential of creating a democratic government?"The novel doesn't present an answer, just the circumstance.
The movie presents a very definite positive answer.
By doing so, it justifies certain actions taken by figures it insinuates as the model for its evil dictator.
I liked the movie, quite a bit. That was one element that made it more enjoyable to me. I just see different characters representing different people.
How so? I don't really think they pulled punches with presenting V as a monster; a badass, intelligent monster, to be sure, but still quite assuredly morally ambiguous. Maybe I don't understand your comment, as I'm not sure what you see as a justification.
As mentioned earlier in this thread, the graphic novel and the movie are two distinctly different creatures, both of which are enjoyable and meaningful in their own ways.
The moral question presented is intended as:
"Is the chaos and death caused by the period of anarchy following the removal of an oppressive dictator justified by the end of the oppression, and the potential of creating a democratic government?"The novel doesn't present an answer, just the circumstance.
The movie presents a very definite positive answer.
By doing so, it justifies certain actions taken by figures it insinuates as the model for its evil dictator.I liked the movie, quite a bit. That was one element that made it more enjoyable to me. I just see different characters representing different people.
[SPOILERS TO FOLLOW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!]
Hey Samuel,
I'm really confused by your posts, so help me understand if you have the time to. How did the movie justify Suttler's actions? Or any dictator's? I am confused and really want to understand you're point. I just rewatched this last night and loved it for the way it challenges our current administrations misuse of fear and authority.
I agree the graphic novel is very very different from the movie, but I didn't see the movie as ham-handed as much as it took a strong political stance and a relevant one in my opinion. Maybe I'm missing something.
I'll take a stab. By making the oppressive movie English government look like the popular preception of ....let's say the current U.S. administration (wire tapping, domestic spying, media control, neo-conservative hardline values, the use of fear as an agent of control, etc...) they set up the evil government/empire that needs to be torn down argument. Everyone in the audience looks to someone to bring the dictator to heel. Regime change.
Flashback a few years: What was it that the US hoped to do in Iraq? Regime change. Why? To over turn a cruel dictator who dabbled in: domestic spying, media control, hardline values, the use of fear as an agent of control. In this light the character V is both representing the current image of US government's war on Sadam as well as the moviemakers' war on Bush. One must admit that V is very unilateral in his approach.
I don't necessarily agree that this is justification of V's actions. The way the movie is shot you are supposed to come away liking him and hating the government to be sure, but let's face it he set up a girl (or someone to whom something "stupid" would happen to) to be killed by a government flunky with a gun. Some would argue that the 9/11 attacks set up Sadam to be knocked down in a similar way. That idiot with the gun doesn't represent the whole of the movie government anymore than the hi-jackers represented Iraq.
Was it worth the price to topple a dictator? Who's the dictator? Who's the terrorist? As always I think history will be the final arbater. The movie leads you to think we get a democratic ending rather than the Reign of Terror (everyone marching through the public square the ghosts of the martyred appearing in the crowd, etc...), though in the history of the world the Reign of Terror ending is much, much more common.
As they say, when one looks into the darkness, the darkness occasionally looks back.
GGG
Do you have darkvision? I don't think you can see the darkness if you don't.
GGG
Flashback a few years: What was it that the US hoped to do in Iraq? Regime change. Why? To over turn a cruel dictator who dabbled in: domestic spying, media control, hardline values, the use of fear as an agent of control.
You mean Bush hoped to make a ton of cash for his cronie friends don't ya?
Some would argue that the 9/11 attacks set up Sadam to be knocked down in a similar way. That idiot with the gun doesn't represent the whole of the movie government anymore than the hi-jackers represented Iraq.
Except Iraq had nothing to do with 9/11 whatsoever. Al Qaeda doesn't even operate in Iraq...never has. No matter what that stupid "Marine" movie says. :-)
I really don't catch any allusion to Iraq whatsoever in V. For one, they show the British Government as once being a democracy and a "good" nation that has descended into dictatorship out of fear. This is a direct allusion to U.S.
Iraq was never a democracy. I don't see the connection at all.
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I really don't catch any allusion to Iraq whatsoever in V. For one, they show the British Government as once being a democracy and a "good" nation that has descended into dictatorship out of fear. This is a direct allusion to U.S.
Iraq was never a democracy. I don't see the connection at all.
Not according to Baathist propoganda.
They liberated Iraq from a corrupt monarchy and made it a progressive democracy. That everyone loved Saddam was jut proof of how good their government was.As for his "excesses" they were all justified by emergency situations like assassination attempts by anti-democratic forces.
Amazing how things can be confused when you move from documentary to "allusion" and "perception," isn't it?
And interesting how justifying the chaos and death that follows from removing a dictator can be applied to different situations.
I really don't catch any allusion to Iraq whatsoever in V. For one, they show the British Government as once being a democracy and a "good" nation that has descended into dictatorship out of fear. This is a direct allusion to U.S.
Iraq was never a democracy. I don't see the connection at all.Not according to Baathist propoganda.
They liberated Iraq from a corrupt monarchy and made it a progressive democracy. That everyone loved Saddam was jut proof of how good their government was.
As for his "excesses" they were all justified by emergency situations like assassination attempts by anti-democratic forces.Amazing how things can be confused when you move from documentary to "allusion" and "perception," isn't it?
And interesting how justifying the chaos and death that follows from removing a dictator can be applied to different situations.
That's reaching pretty hard in my opinion. First off, the whole "Three Waters" conspiracy seemed much more a reference to 9/11 conspiracy theories to me.
Additionally V is British. He's a citizen of his regime exacting change, not a foriegn power asserting control over some other sovereign nation (America's removal of Saddam). The movie is about revolution, not about hostile military takeover by a far superior foreign force.
This is just my opinion, and again one of the fun things about "allusion" and "perception" is exactly that it allows for multiple interpretations. But in my opinion, this movie does not in any way at all support U.S.'s removal of Saddam from power.
And also - documentaries certainly don't tell the "truth" either in my opinion, they just offer a perspective. So does this movie.
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That's reaching pretty hard in my opinion. First off, the whole "Three Waters" conspiracy seemed much more a reference to 9/11 conspiracy theories to me.
Except the 9/11 conspiracies are false.
Which would mean the response in the movie wasn't simply a government plot.Which would mean V wasn't created by the government?
Indeed, that is reaching rather hard.
Additionally V is British. He's a citizen of his regime exacting change, not a foriegn power asserting control over some other sovereign nation (America's removal of Saddam). The movie is about revolution, not about hostile military takeover by a far superior foreign force.
And there aren't Iraqis who wanted Saddam out of power?
The movie is about violent change of government. There is no actual revolution. There are merely a number of terrorist attacks that destroy the existing government.This is just my opinion, and again one of the fun things about "allusion" and "perception" is exactly that it allows for multiple interpretations. But in my opinion, this movie does not in any way at all support U.S.'s removal of Saddam from power.
And mine is that it does justify the removal of Saddam from power, whether it intended to or not. And I find that amusing.
Except the 9/11 conspiracies are false.
In your expert opinion? I'm not saying they are true mind you. I'm saying that was the obvious allusion made by the Wachowski brothers in the movie.
Which would mean the response in the movie wasn't simply a government plot.
Except it was. In the "world" of the movie they made that quite clear.
Which would mean V wasn't created by the government?
Now you're just being obtuse. In the movie he was indeed created by the government. If not, how was he created? What evidence in the movie supports another source for his creation?
Additionally V is British. He's a citizen of his regime exacting change, not a foriegn power asserting control over some other sovereign nation (America's removal of Saddam). The movie is about revolution, not about hostile military takeover by a far superior foreign force.
And there aren't Iraqis who wanted Saddam out of power?
The movie is about violent change of government. There is no actual revolution. There are merely a number of terrorist attacks that destroy the existing government.
I guess the entire population of the city showing up in V masks was in my imagination.
The removal of Saddam was not done by Iraqis whether or not they wanted to do it. It was done by a superior invading military force. This is different from the movie. Are you gonna tell me I'm wrong?
This is just my opinion, and again one of the fun things about "allusion" and "perception" is exactly that it allows for multiple interpretations. But in my opinion, this movie does not in any way at all support U.S.'s removal of Saddam from power.And mine is that it does justify the removal of Saddam from power, whether it intended to or not. And I find that amusing.
Fair enough...agree to disagree we shall.
All I know is that Stephen King's It was a stinging endictment against snarky IT professionals (Pennywise translated into binary spells 011011110 which upside down reads stephenki) and the line "They all float down here" was clearly a rebuke to how the Marshall Plan invariably led the European aquatic car boom of the late 80's.
Who buys aquatic cars? That's right... only IT professionals. See how it all spirals back to a core truth? The more you deconstruct, the you see the angels in the angles.
Regardless of whether it is a government-made Frankenstein's monster or a superior invader form another world the fact does remain that both V and the government he fights against, Saddam's Iraq and our real-life White House (if the truth is to be believed about either) all use heavy handed tactics (torture, double-dealing, assassination, manipulation, lies, etc...) to get what they want, which in the mind of most of them is a better world. V takes part in all these during the course of the movie even though he is also the guy we are rooting for. From where I stand you are both right.
GGG