I had a situation where a monster got a crit and then
got a 20 to confirm.
20 was not enough to hit the PCs armor class.
There is no ruling in the core books.
Everyone was arguing something else.
If you can crit. on the confirm roll can you also fumble?
Does this prevent first level characters from killing gods?
All that stuff.
I finally got them to accept a ruling that cancelled unhittable crits.
Once I was rested the next day I decided that 20s auto hit
but might be unable to crit.
It would not have changed the outcome of the battle.
I just don't want to waste an hour or two again on a rule
that the books describe both ways.
Is there an eratta sheet I can download somewhere?
I'm not sure what the offical ruling is, but I usually rule that a natural 20 on the confirm always confirms the critical. I my mind a natural 20 is always a hit whether it's rolled for the initial attack or a critical confirmation.
This is one of those things that doesn't really matter except for consistency. i.e. if NPCs can do it to them, they can do it to NPCs.
By the by how did the players know that the Critter needed a 20+ to hit???
I had a situation where a monster got a crit and then
got a 20 to confirm.
20 was not enough to hit the PCs armor class.
There is no ruling in the core books.
Everyone was arguing something else.
If you can crit. on the confirm roll can you also fumble?
Does this prevent first level characters from killing gods?
All that stuff.
I finally got them to accept a ruling that cancelled unhittable crits.
Once I was rested the next day I decided that 20s auto hit
but might be unable to crit.
It would not have changed the outcome of the battle.
I just don't want to waste an hour or two again on a rule
that the books describe both ways.
Is there an eratta sheet I can download somewhere?
I would rule that it would be a crit. A nat 20 is always a hit. So even if you rolling to comfirm a crit, is should count as a hit. There is a variant rule in one of the books that if you roll a nat 20, another nat 20 and then confirm the crit its an auto-kill.
I also wouldnt worry about them using that to kill gods, most gods probably would have inherent fortifaction or other ways to be immune to critical hits.
I had a situation where a monster got a crit and then
got a 20 to confirm.
20 was not enough to hit the PCs armor class.
There is no ruling in the core books.
The nat 20 is an auto hit and a crit-threat. On the second roll (to confirm the crit), a 20 isn't an auto hit since it's to confirm a crit. If they roll a 20 and add their attack bonus and it still doesn't hit the necessary AC, then it is just a hit. No crit.
There is no fumble rules.A natural 1 always misses. A natural 1 on the confirm to crit roll works the same as nat 20. Add the attack bonus, if it exceeds the AC then it confirms a critical hit. otherwise, it doesn't confirm the crit.
This is how we run it and the same way it works at conventions (RPGA). I'll look for the specific rules in the books.
I had a situation where a monster got a crit and then
got a 20 to confirm.
20 was not enough to hit the PCs armor class.
There is no ruling in the core books.
Yes, there is.
"When you make an attack roll and get a natural 20 (the d20 shows 20), you hit regardless of your target's Armor Class, and you have scored a threat. The hit might be a critical hit (or "crit"). To find out if it's a critical hit, you immediately make a critical roll--another attack roll with all the same modifiers as the attack roll you just made. If the critical roll also results in a hit against the target's AC, your original hit is a critical hit." PHB, page 140.
Since a natural 20 on an attack roll is a hit regardless of the target's AC, and critical rolls are attack rolls, a natural 20 on a critical roll hits against the target's AC, regardless of what that AC is.
Everyone was arguing something else.
If you can crit. on the confirm roll can you also fumble?
There are no fumbles in official D&D, and you are not "critting" on the confirmation roll; it's just a successful confirmation.
Does this prevent first level characters from killing gods?
No. Common sense and myriad other rules prevent that.
I finally got them to accept a ruling that cancelled unhittable crits.
Once I was rested the next day I decided that 20s auto hit
but might be unable to crit.
If the target can be critted at all, it will be critted on a natural 20 attack roll followed by a natural 20 critical roll.
I just don't want to waste an hour or two again on a rule that the books describe both ways.
Where do "the books" describe the rule a different way?
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I had a situation where a monster got a crit and then
got a 20 to confirm.
20 was not enough to hit the PCs armor class.
There is no ruling in the core books.Yes, there is.
"When you make an attack roll and get a natural 20 (the d20 shows 20), you hit regardless of your target's Armor Class, and you have scored a threat. The hit might be a critical hit (or "crit"). To find out if it's a critical hit, you immediately make a critical roll--another attack roll with all the same modifiers as the attack roll you just made. If the critical roll also results in a hit against the target's AC, your original hit is a critical hit." PHB, page 140.
Since a natural 20 on an attack roll is a hit regardless of the target's AC, and critical rolls are attack rolls, a natural 20 on a critical roll hits against the target's AC, regardless of what that AC is.
Everyone was arguing something else.
If you can crit. on the confirm roll can you also fumble?There are no fumbles in official D&D, and you are not "critting" on the confirmation roll; it's just a successful confirmation.
Does this prevent first level characters from killing gods?No. Common sense and myriad other rules prevent that.
I finally got them to accept a ruling that cancelled unhittable crits.
Once I was rested the next day I decided that 20s auto hit
but might be unable to crit.If the target can be critted at all, it will be critted on a natural 20 attack roll followed by a natural 20 critical roll.
I just don't want to waste an hour or two again on a rule that the books describe both ways.Where do "the books" describe the rule a different way?
you hit head on. if it can b e critted at all, then a nat 20 will hit regardless as to whether they could hit its AC normally or not. just be glad that you don't use the rule where they could roll again to confirm an instant kill. can you imagine the headaches that would cause?
OK--but odds of two 20s in a row is 1 in 400. Odds of three twenties in a row is 1 in 8,000. Sure, it might happen once or twice in your gaming career, but I don't think I've seen it yet.
This brings up another similar question: what happens if the player (wielding a rapier, which has a critical threat range of 19-20) rolls a natural 20, but then on a confirm rolls 19, when the target has an AC of 20? Does he confirm the critical?
I ruled that he hit, but hey, I'm a nice guy.
This brings up another similar question: what happens if the player (wielding a rapier, which has a critical threat range of 19-20) rolls a natural 20, but then on a confirm rolls 19, when the target has an AC of 20? Does he confirm the critical?
I ruled that he hit, but hey, I'm a nice guy.
Hate to say it, but I think you misruled by RAW. Confirm has nothing to do with crit range, but requires a roll that would hit the creature's AC. Natural 20 hits, but if the 19 was after modifiers and the AC was 20, technically it shouldn't be a crit.
Of course, rule one applies--if you say it's a crit it's a crit.
This brings up another similar question: what happens if the player (wielding a rapier, which has a critical threat range of 19-20) rolls a natural 20, but then on a confirm rolls 19, when the target has an AC of 20? Does he confirm the critical?
I ruled that he hit, but hey, I'm a nice guy.
Well, if the roll of 19 would have added up to the target's AC with the rest of the modifiers, of course. But there's no rule of a natural 19 auto hitting, whereas there most definitely is with a 20.
FYI to the original poster, deities have such incredible Damage Reduction (ranging from DR 10-50/epic) that a natural roll of a 20 that would normally hit, will probably not deal any damage without any epic level weapon. And since Deities have these things called salient abilities which include every attack counting as if they had rolled a natural 20, the offending party is mostly likely toast when the deity in question makes its rolls to confirm a slew of critical hits along with things like Power Attack and whatever else it happens to feel in the mood to do (Heironeous, for example would deal a minimum of 98 points of damage on a single crit hit without anything else added).
And, BTW, I agree with the previous majority that another 20 to confirm a critical hit will get her done.
This brings up another similar question: what happens if the player (wielding a rapier, which has a critical threat range of 19-20) rolls a natural 20, but then on a confirm rolls 19, when the target has an AC of 20? Does he confirm the critical?
I ruled that he hit, but hey, I'm a nice guy.
First of all, a rapier has an 18-20 threat range.
A threat and an auto-hit are two different things. ONLY a natural 20 is an auto-hit, regardless of threat range. That means if you get a roll other than a 20 that would normally be a threat, but it's short of the target's AC, you miss.
Most people understand that much. What seems to confuse people (in this thread and elsewhere) is that A CONFIRMATION ROLL IS NO DIFFERENT FROM ANY OTHER ATTACK ROLL, except that the end result of succeeding is a little different. People expect them to be more complicated than that, and confuse themselves by assuming they must be more complicated than they are. They're very simple. Any rule, including the one above, that applies to attack rolls, applies in exactly the same way to confirmation rolls.
So as others have pointed out, you have an auto-hit but no confirmed critical in the situation you asked about.
And in conclusion, what the Tarterus is this thread doing on the Age of Worms board?
So refer me to the proper board.
I'll go with the second 20 auto confirms now,
but anyone who mentions crit. fumbles gets their character
hit by 10 points smite damage.
This happened in Spire of the Long Shadows with the army of devils ambush.
IMC, that second nat 20 would have resulted in a crit. I think that RAW, but how I would have played it, anyway. Same if it had happened to PC, too.
My question is under what circumstances, if you are running AOW, did you come across a situation where the listed monsters could not hit the PC's by rolling a 20?
A 20 is an auto-hit, a 20 on the confirm is a crit. Anything below 20, ad mods then see if it beats the AC. That's what I do.
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As an old DM that is new to 3rd edition, this exact topic has been bouncing around in my head for weeks. I think this thread finally cleared it up for me though. My big concern was the threat range(19-20 etc..) and if you scored a "hit" and a possible "confirmation roll" on a nat19 when the target's AC is 20 or above. I understand now that a roll of nat19 only results in a possible "confirmation roll" if nat19+bonus is a high enough roll to hit the target's AC. Someone above mentioned that we are making this more complicated than it is, and that is exactly what I have been doing. Of course I could be totally wrong now and think that I have it right...
I understand now that a roll of nat19 only results in a possible "confirmation roll" if nat19+bonus is a high enough roll to hit the target's AC. Someone above mentioned that we are making this more complicated than it is, and that is exactly what I have been doing. Of course I could be totally wrong now and think that I have it right...
No, you have it right.
It is cleared up.
To clear up the other points.
I still want to know where to ask the next rules question.
The PCs were being attacked by Devils, some of which could not
hit some PCs on a 20.
I had the Pit Fiend who wanted the next part of the rod
send some minions to the PCs with the instructions to not
come back without the part of the rod.
How could I make future devils uncrittable?
Fortification Armor, feats, or fiendish races?
The Devils did start trying to establish flank.
Is there a module that takes place on the astral
plane or some lower plane in Dungeon that I can use
if the PCs come after him?
One where all their magic items don't work would be preferred.
IIRC, ice devils are sent. They would hit an AC34 with a 20 - that's a pretty respectable AC for 10th level. The pit fiend should send better minions to do his will, next time.
There is an optional rule that calls nat 20's for skill checks, confirms, et al as being treated as 30 (and nat 1's as -10). Would this solve your dilemma? We use it IMC.
IIRC, ice devils are sent. They would hit an AC34 with a 20 - that's a pretty respectable AC for 10th level. The pit fiend should send better minions to do his will, next time.
There is an optional rule that calls nat 20's for skill checks, confirms, et al as being treated as 30 (and nat 1's as -10). Would this solve your dilemma? We use it IMC.
Ice Devils. I'll have to make counters.
It was my mistake using only figures.The really powerful devils don't have figures yet.