I looked on WotC's site today, and found Acererak (Tomb of Horrors fame/infamy) is in a People of Waterdeep chapter.
Noooo, Mr. Let's Kill Greyhawk As Fast As We Can! Acererak is not a Realms figure.
WotC's zeal to purge all traces of Greyhawk from the fabric of D&D saddens me. I'm guessing somewhere in 4/e they'll start describing Mordenkainen as a peer (or apprentice!) of Elminister, or just eliminate the name entirely.
You should know that I'm just plain cranky today -- don't take my ranting too seriously :(
Regards,
Jack
I was on Enworld and there is a post "I am quiting FR." The reason- he does not have room to place anything outside of FR, such as a dungeon article and have it make sense. At least to him. Let's hope there is a reprisal of real sword and sorcery. I think Iron Heroes is most easily placed into Greyhawk and it has been popular. I prefer less hands in the cookie jar to make it a mess.
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Its a crime what they are doing to
Greyhawk. I refuse to support Ebberron in any form including correctly spelling it. WotC is a bunch of money-grabbing bastards who could care less about the rape and wholesale dismantling of a treasured campaign setting.
I have a bit of a sore spot when it comes to this subject.
FH
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I have to say that I love Eberron (or Ebberon, for you FH! ;)
But recently I came to realize that Greyhawk is a really great setting. I once had the first boxed set, but can't find it anymore and presently I am searching stuff about GH in eBay and elsewhere.
I don't care if WotC support it or not, as long as Erik, James and some others at Paizo support it. If I am correct, they love Greyhawk and therefore, we will always get some great GH-stuff in form of adventures (there are a lot of authors out there who love GH.)
After reading all available parts of George R.R. Martins "Song of ice and fire" I love to get back to a somewhat less magic oriented setting, and GH seems to be a good place for it...
I don't care if WotC support it or not, as long as Erik, James and some others at Paizo support it. If I am correct, they love Greyhawk and therefore, we will always get some great GH-stuff in form of adventures (there are a lot of authors out there who love GH.)
I second that. I don't care what WOTC does. As long as Erik and Paizo still support Greyhawk, it is in better hands anyway!
I have to say that I love Eberron (or Ebberon, for you FH! ;)
For all my love of GH, I would love to dabble in Ebberon -- it seems very cool and very original.
I don't care if WotC support it or not, as long as Erik, James and some others at Paizo support it.
I'm with you 1000% here. Truth be told, I think Dungeon has given more total useable GH material than EGG & TSR ever did.
Regards,
Jack
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I'm with FH in thinking that WotC has made D&D about nothing more than how much cash they can rake in. For them, it is just a business. Although I think he was being a bit too nice when he called them money grubbing bastards. Unfortunately, anything more appropriate (as in true) would also be less appropriate (as in unsuitable for younger audiences).
Anyway, I also agree with Dryder, Voodoo Chili (love that name), and Tatterdemalion that as long as Paizo going to support Greyhawk, then the setting is in good hands. Unless those bastards at WotC decide to be butt heads and deny Paizo the right to publish anything Oerth related. I keep thinking that is the reason they reaquired the rights to Ravenloft, to keep anyone else from putting it out and us enjoying it. It sounds like something they would do.
Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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I suppose this is the appropriate spot to post about how WotC is a corporation in the business of publishing books and has always been about making money and that furthermore, taking actions for the express purpose of infuriating and disgusting their customers is not a particularly wise business model (unless you're Nirvana I guess), but I'm sure below the emotional reaction, we all know that anyway, so I'll skip that.
It always hurts to have a piece of fiction that you love pulled out from under you. I like to believe that things like this, and in particular with respect to Greyhawk, are cyclical. I remember when I started gaming in the late 80's, the general consensus among gamers was that Greyhawk was tired, stale, and full of silly names. It wasn't until 3e that I gave the setting a good look and realized the gem beneath the surface.
Anyway, I think this can be seen as a blessing in disguise. A lot of the time support for a setting means cataclysmic events (e.g., Krynn) to boost sales. Isn't it better to have GH ignored than to have it ruined through an epic "event" designed merely to boost sales?
Just because WotC quits supporting GH doesn't mean that it is, or will become, dead. The setting had high level friends capable of returning it from the great beyond.
Alright, first I am going to say that I like Eberron. There. I've said it.
I will say to those that vehemently against Eberron, yours are my feelings towards Forgotten Realms. I refuse to allow anything remotely FR in my game simply on principle.
Greyhawk has always been a strong love of mine. When I sold off all my 1st and 2nd Edition material, The Greyhawk boxed set and the Greyhawk adventures hardbound book were all that I kept, and still have.
I would wholeheartedly support WotC selling all rights to Greyhawk to the fine people over here at Paizo. Erik and the gang have done a fantastic job supporting it.
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Alright, first I am going to say that I like Eberron. There. I've said it.
I will say to those that vehemently against Eberron, yours are my feelings towards Forgotten Realms. I refuse to allow anything remotely FR in my game simply on principle.
Greyhawk has always been a strong love of mine. When I sold off all my 1st and 2nd Edition material, The Greyhawk boxed set and the Greyhawk adventures hardbound book were all that I kept, and still have.
I would wholeheartedly support WotC selling all rights to Greyhawk to the fine people over here at Paizo. Erik and the gang have done a fantastic job supporting it.
While our stances on Ebberan are different, I find myself in strong agreement on the idea of Paizo acquiring the rights to Greyhawk. That being said, it'll never happen. WotC would be arming someone to compete with their campaign settings and instead of people having a choice of different settings WotC would probably rather force-feed the campaign settings they want to promote to us. I am rather surprised that Wizards hasn't pulled the plug on Dungeon magizine's support of Greyhawk, but I highly doubt you will see a campaign setting for Greyhawk made for 3.5 or even 4.0 unless Wizards decides to hack up some junk and label it "Greyhawk". When it was TSR Hobbies they had people who cared more about promoting and nurturing the D&D name than WotC. WotC seems to only care about making a huge profit, and not what players want. Take the miniatures line as an example. I love the actual minis, but I refuse to buy them in any quantity because of the whole "gotta collect em all" mentality of the line. If I want to buy a beholder I shouldn't need to pay $30 online to get it. I should be able to go into my local hobby store and buy it. I am 35 yrs old, I don't want to open up 10 F**ing boxes and hope that 1 box holds what I need for my next session. WotC knows that most people feel this way but refuse to address the issue because it would stop people from buying the 10 boxes. I would still spend the same amount of money and not be frustrated if I could buy the figs in small packs of 5 or so minis with a theme and knew what I was getting. They could even charge a little more per fig over the $13 a box for 8 figs price. Basically Wizards is owned by Hasbro and is acting like Hasbro. Tear as much money as possible from the people as you can (Pokemon, anyone).
FH
I've mentioned this before, but I think that each campaign setting has its fans. The GH fans aren't going to buy FR or Eberron just because WotC no longer supports it. It just means they won't be buying campaign supplements and will go elsewhere for compatible stuff. I personally think WotC is biting themselves in the ass with this decision. I really doubt a new GH hardcover WotC book would hurt the sales of the other settings, since they all have their fans. It's not like all the GH fans are going to drop their favorite campaign setting and go to FR or Eberron because "WotC no longer supports it."
Just because WotC quits supporting GH doesn't mean that it is, or will become, dead. The setting had high level friends capable of returning it from the great beyond.
My fear (though I hope I'm wrong) is that it might very well become dead :(
WotC owns GH lock, stock, & barrel. While opposition to the setting is usually fairly inoffensive, sometimes their policies have crossed over into overt hostility. I think that, if they believed FR or Eberron was suffering financially, they might pull the plug quickly and aggressively (though Living Greyhawk would likely be left unmolested).
Some thoughts :)
Jack
GH fan since before many of you were in diapers...
I learned to play D&D in that weird period when Greyhawk was on the outs and Forgotten Realms, Dragonlance, Spelljammer, Dark Sun and Planescape were in. That being said, I missed out on what appears to have been the glory days of Greyhawk - much to my chagrin, as there are many things about the setting I'm finding very appealing.
I like Eberron, though I probably never run a campaign in it. Some of the world concepts are intriguing (elemental binding), but that's about it.
It is my fervent hope that Paizo can continue to nurture the Greyhawk setting and revitalize that interest in a campaign setting that others would like to see dead and gone. Erik and all the cool folks here (and I'm including the forum members) have done more to spark my interest in Greyhawk than anything WotC has put out to date. May Paizo be allowed to continue to do such wonderful things like the Shackled City, Age of Worms, the Demonomicon, Campaign Classics, Core Beliefs and host of other articles too numerous to list and help us all revitalize and remember a campaign setting that helped give birth to all the settings that we all enjoy.
Take the miniatures line as an example. I love the actual minis, but I refuse to buy them in any quantity because of the whole "gotta collect em all" mentality of the line. If I want to buy a beholder I shouldn't need to pay $30 online to get it. I should be able to go into my local hobby store and buy it. I am 35 yrs old, I don't want to open up 10 F**ing boxes and hope that 1 box holds what I need for my next session.
Don't get me started on this BS.
My local hobby store has set up a counter where you can buy individual figures.
I also tend to look at other lines of miniatures, as I actually enjoy painting the figures.
While WotC may cease their support of GH, even if they retain the license, there would be plenty of user support. Heck, take a look at what the people who liked planescape did when 3.0 came out. They went out and started converting stuff, building prestige classes, feats etc.
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Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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Why can't I just make a Will save and not respond? Sigh.
When it was TSR Hobbies they had people who cared more about promoting and nurturing the D&D name than WotC. WotC seems to only care about making a huge profit, and not what players want.
I'm all for nostalgia, but TSR was not a name associated with warm and fuzzy gamer love back in the late 80's early 90's. TSR was not only just as greedy as WotC, but they were worse in terms of management. This is the company that tried jumping on the Magic bandwagon by producing spellfire. They cranked out multiple poor quality supplements each month, produced a raft of broken rules, and included references to other products to force you to purchase them. They smacked down websites for posting D&D related contents, including your own characters. They forced EGG out of the company in the early days and tried to prevent him from ever doing anything with the brand ever. I'm all for a trip down nostalgia lane, but TSR was not by any stretch of the imagination, a good and friendly company with the interests of D&D at heart. And, even assuming they were, they went BANKRUPT. I can't see following their business model as a key to the long term success of the hobby.
Take the miniatures line as an example. I love the actual minis, but I refuse to buy them in any quantity because of the whole "gotta collect em all" mentality of the line. If I want to buy a beholder I shouldn't need to pay $30 online to get it. I should be able to go into my local hobby store and buy it. I am 35 yrs old, I don't want to open up 10 F**ing boxes and hope that 1 box holds what I need for my next session. WotC knows that most people feel this way but refuse to address the issue because it would stop people from buying the 10 boxes. I would still spend the same amount of money and not be frustrated if I could buy the figs in small packs of 5 or so minis with a theme and knew what I was getting. They could even charge a little more per fig over the $13 a box for 8 figs price.
I agree as to the desirability of the current minatures line. I don't have any interest in playing the minatures game and I don't buy the boxes. WotC is copying what Wizkids did w/Mageknight (and, which made WizKids a ton of cash) to produce an alternate revenue stream, not to contribute to D&D.
That being said, I doubt "most people feel this way." If they did, WotC could just as easily switch to providing the product that "most people" want and thereby make more money. It doesn't make any sense to produce minatures in random packs when your customers don't buy them (or only buy them on the secondary singles market). Neither WotC nor TSR have ever had a successful minatures line. The options are not - WotC puts minatures in random packs or in packs organized for us in the game. The options are - WotC puts minature in random packs or WotC does not have a minatures line.
Just because WotC quits supporting GH doesn't mean that it is, or will become, dead. The setting had high level friends capable of returning it from the great beyond.My fear (though I hope I'm wrong) is that it might very well become dead :(
WotC owns GH lock, stock, & barrel. While opposition to the setting is usually fairly inoffensive, sometimes their policies have crossed over into overt hostility. I think that, if they believed FR or Eberron was suffering financially, they might pull the plug quickly and aggressively (though Living Greyhawk would likely be left unmolested).
Some thoughts :)
Jack
GH fan since before many of you were in diapers...
Here's my suggestion -
WRITE A LETTER - not an email, not a typewritten business letter, but a handwritten letter on that quaint stationary you can get at any decent stationary store (or even the hallmark store).
Businesses and governments set little store in mass produced email petitions and form letter drives, but handwritten letters show a level of concern among customers that they tend to at least give consideration to.
The letter should:
State that you are a customer, preferrably a repeat customer, and give examples of products you have purchased (and perhaps those you intend to purchase).
State your grievance clearly.
Ask them to remedy it (preferably stating concrete actions you'd like them to consider taking)
Provide contact information for them to reach you.
Convince your friends to write too. Make the letters brief, but personal - why greyhawk is important to you.
--
Seriously, I worked at the statehouse in Massachusetts for a little while, and the legislators always gave special attention to handwritten letters.
- Ashavan
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Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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My fear (though I hope I'm wrong) is that it might very well become dead :(
WotC owns GH lock, stock, & barrel. While opposition to the setting is usually fairly inoffensive, sometimes their policies have crossed over into overt hostility. I think that, if they believed FR or Eberron was suffering financially, they might pull the plug quickly and aggressively (though Living Greyhawk would likely be left unmolested).
Some thoughts :)
Jack
GH fan since before many of you were in diapers...
It would be nice if they would at least let Dragon/Dungeon support GH. My guess (hope) is that GH would be treated like Spelljammer or Planescape. Those settings have a lot of unofficial fan support, and get an article or two in Dragon from time to time, but not much else. Alternately, if they let Paizo continue using GH with the names changed to protect the innocent, that would be nice. It would suck if they clamped down on the setting.
If I had to place a bet, I would think their current policy is indicative of their attitude generally - let GH sink out of sight slowly but surely. I doubt they will switch to an iron fisted clamp down.
The letter writing idea is probably a good one too. Maybe the Paizo folks will poke in and provide some insight as to the appropriate channels to utilize...
You guys want to freak out?
I'm actually planning to use the Greyhawk setting for the first time (ever) this weekend to start my new campaign!
Do I like to take my time or what?
Ultradan
I've been playing and DMing for nearly 10 years now, and never bothered with a published campaign setting until Eberron came out. I love the flavor of that setting, so I looked into the others, and have recently been running around in Greyhawk. Fun stuff. I don't think I'll ever run a FR game, though, unless WotC comes out with a statement to the effect of: "Everybody above level 10 is dead. Oh, and the drow are dead, too. All of them." Talk about annoying characters...
Everything about Eberron screams "OVERPOWERED"
I did, however, purchase the setting because there were some things from the book that I did want.
The Artificer class negates the need for ever needing a wizard/sorcerer or even a cleric. I may have misread it but they are able to create a wand or staff with any spell in it and get insane bonuses to doing so.
The warforged are a cool race, something different and are about the only thing that is balanced in that book. Action points? WTF? A feat to allow you to double the number of wearable and usable rings. F*** Eberron. I wish I hadnt bought the book retail :[
As I've stated many times before, I'm a relative newbie to D&D with only a little over two years under my belt. I've never taken much of a personal interest in Greyhawk to run campaigns in per se, however, I feel that it would be a true tregedy to lose this classical piece of D&D lore.
Regarding the Forgotten Realms: If you look in the setting, there are a number of people who are 10th level or lower in influential positions. But, don't get me wrong- I also feel that there is an overabundance of emphasis on high level NPCs, and of course, the drow. But, here's what I do when I get annoyed by them: I don't use them. The Forgotten Realms are plenty big enough to have an entire campaign run without the party ever meeting these famous uber-NPCs until Epic or near-Epic levels. I personally enjoy having a select few very notable people in the world that the party can identify with.
Imagine Star Wars without Darth Vader, Emperor Palpatine, and Luke Skywalker. Boring. But, could you run a very successful game in the Star Wars RPG without ever using them? I'm sure you could! Plus, these NPCs aren't EVERYWHERE. There's a few here and there, enough to make a dynamic, interesting background tapestry of Realmslore; they aren't on every block. Just because the books use them in such a way on frequent occassions doesn't mean anything. Uber-NPCs are great in literature, not in games.
The FR has a sort of self-policing action. Its influence on intrigue, if used correctly, makes sure that the Uber-NPCs can't step out and interact with the party, or other Uber-NPCs will counteract and the balance of power will shift. So, while it does happen, it is rare and not done without so much careful planning that the party will most likely not interact directly with the NPC at all if something does occur, but rather deal with minions and semi-related quests to stop the advances of Szass Tam (or whoever) in a more grass-roots fashion, while Elminster battles the lich himself. The important part is that they don't directly enter your game.
And they only inderictly enter in the fashion mentioned above when you choose to run a campaign featuring such a story!
The Uber-NPCs help to put a face on organizations and the world that is easily recognizale by the players.
Many have also stated that they prefer the lower-magic setting of Greyhawk. That's fine, and I'm all for that, don't get me wrong! But, I must say that there isn't actually THAT much magic in FR in a global sense. There are plenty of mages, priests, and whatever spell-slinging thing in general for any number of campaigns. The important thing to remember is the scope. These people rarely enter the lives of the ordinary people in any way shape or form. There's plenty to go around for stories involving the elite of the world (i.e. adventures and the adventurers who adventure in them!) without affecting the magic level available to Joe Commoner on the street (which is to say, none).
Again, I could be completely off base here, but this is, as I understand it, the semi-low magic aspect that you love about Greyhawk, correct? I mean no offense, and I am inexperienced in the ways of GH, so tell me if I'm wrong, please!
Oh, and the same goes for the drow- an interesting, vital piece of Realmslore that helps define the feeling of the setting, but not at all necessary to put into your game.
And finally, to conclude this whirlwind ramble of disparate viewpoints regarding various campaign settings, Eberron. I have yet to play in a successful Eberron campaign, but would enjoy giving the setting a chance. THAT'S high magic. It is important to realize, however, that Eberron is very much an ALTERNATE setting, not at all what is the norm of D&D as any gamer from anytime before Eberron knows it. It should remain as such, too. I'm sure there are parts of Eberron in which a lower-magic, magic-not-as-technology campaign could be set, and I would think that starting out novices to D&D in such a play style would be the best (actually, not using Eberron at all would be the best, but if you're hell-bent on Eberron...).
It's important for someone to understand the basics of D&D and what is commonly held to be its "core vision" before moving on to an alternate system like Eberron.
To conclude on a more agreeable point, I state again my dissatisfaction with the slow strangulation of Greyhawk at the hands of WotC, and hope that it is either revived (faithfully) or that some other corporate entity comes to possess it. The biggest part of why I'm not too inclined to run a campaign in it is that there's no coverage of the damned thing! Fix that, and you fix the disinterest problem that the setting seems to be facing, and is ultimately the cause for its downward cycle.
The biggest part of why I'm not too inclined to run a campaign in it is that there's no coverage of the damned thing! Fix that, and you fix the disinterest problem that the setting seems to be facing, and is ultimately the cause for its downward cycle.
Agreed - as much as I love the setting, the LGG didn't really introduce me well to the setting, although it did happily provide lots of flavorful bits that got the wheels turning. I'm sure all the information I want is covered in a dusty pre-3rd edition Tomes of Knowledge +5, but I
*WARNING - FANGIRL AHEAD*
want a pretty, shiny 300-400-500 page hardcover book, in color, with maps that inspire, world settings that intrigue me, prestige classes that make sense, setting descriptions that suck me in to such an extent that I can't wait to run home and read the book cover to cover without stopping.
*END FANGIRL RAVING*
Basically, I would like as much love and attention given to the setting as they did when updating the Forgotten Realms to third edition, and as much care and concern when providing us with Eberron.
Oh, and the drow are dead, too. All of them." Talk about annoying characters...
Tell me about it. "Here's the latest news about the realms! Drow, drow drow Elminster drow Harpers Drow. Now with 50% more drow!"
Like some others I started in that wierd time where Greyhawk was disappearing and Dragonlance, spelljammer and FR were the new kings. I like to call it the "late 80's - mid 90s" :)
The only conscious contact I ever really had with Greyhawk as player or DM was Temple of Elemental Evil, but I have always respected Greyhawk as the original setting. We played it for years hardly even realizing we were in Oerth. I think it had a nice low-key feel that always makes me think "classic D&D" and it felt as if all the basic D&D archetypes were welcome in greyhawk, unlike some settings.
It would be a pity if it disappeared, but this would mainly be a problem for new gamers who know only of Eberron. Older gamers like myself (and it seems most of the people here) are not dependant on any company to run Greyhawk in their games, and I think all Greyhwawk really needs is a little article every now and then in Dragon or Dungeon to make old gamers feel all fuzzy inside. IMHO the best thing about greyhawk was always the freedom. There wasn't a vast plethora of source material and a constantly updating setting and that was good. You could play Greyhawk confident that you knew what was going on and there were few fashions to follow, unlike *cough* the Realms *cough* where for a while you were nobody if you weren't a CG drow ranger.
Anyway that's a bit of a ramble but I guess what I'm trying to say is I like the fact that Greyhawk never changes. It comforts me...
A mention from paizo every now and again is good enough for me. Frankly I don't care if new players know about greyhawk or not; the important thing is I always will. Can't stop progress as they say.
Maybe I come at it from the other side of things, but the reason I love Greyhawk is because the setting isn't fleshed out -- except by ye ol' DM.
I enjoy filling in the gaps.
As wonderfully detailed as Realms, Eberron (and Judges' Guild Wilderlands, as well) are, I feel like I have to hop-scotch through those worlds to find a spot I can make my own.
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The biggest part of why I'm not too inclined to run a campaign in it is that there's no coverage of the damned thing! Fix that, and you fix the disinterest problem that the setting seems to be facing, and is ultimately the cause for its downward cycle.Agreed - as much as I love the setting, the LGG didn't really introduce me well to the setting, although it did happily provide lots of flavorful bits that got the wheels turning. I'm sure all the information I want is covered in a dusty pre-3rd edition Tomes of Knowledge +5, but I
*WARNING - FANGIRL AHEAD*
want a pretty, shiny 300-400-500 page hardcover book, in color, with maps that inspire, world settings that intrigue me, prestige classes that make sense, setting descriptions that suck me in to such an extent that I can't wait to run home and read the book cover to cover without stopping.
*END FANGIRL RAVING*
Basically, I would like as much love and attention given to the setting as they did when updating the Forgotten Realms to third edition, and as much care and concern when providing us with Eberron.
100% on target!!
Greyhawk started out as the "norm" for D&D. It wasn't a Low-magic setting but a gritty setting. A Dark Ages, deadly, magical world with Gothic type dungeons and gritty hack-n-slash dungeons. Temple of Elemental Evil pretty much sums up the feel of the world. A dark beauty she was, I will always remember her majesty.
Rest well my love, rest well. May you one day rise to glory and slay the infidels who sought to shackle you.
FH
I looked on WotC's site today, and found Acererak (Tomb of Horrors fame/infamy) is in a People of Waterdeep chapter.
Noooo, Mr. Let's Kill Greyhawk As Fast As We Can! Acererak is not a Realms figure.
WotC's zeal to purge all traces of Greyhawk from the fabric of D&D saddens me. I'm guessing somewhere in 4/e they'll start describing Mordenkainen as a peer (or apprentice!) of Elminister, or just eliminate the name entirely.
You should know that I'm just plain cranky today -- don't take my ranting too seriously :(
Regards,
Jack
Um... if you'll look at the Tome of Magic preview, all of the entries are something of Waterdeep. The noctumancy class is a monster. Geryon is a prestige class.
There was a mistake, causing them to put the chapter titles from the Waterdeep book in place of the actual Tome of Magic chapter headings.
The basis of this whole thread (OMG Acererak is in FR!) is totally false. I'm glad it's given the Greyhawk zealots and FR/Eberron haters out there a chance to vent... but it's not happening. Acererak is free of the filthy paws of that insidious Greenwood.
He is, however, still dead. Sorry 'bout that.
I think the original poster was looking at the preview for the Tome of Magic. There it lists several excerpts from the new book. The third item is:
Vestige: Acererak (from Chapter 2: People of Waterdeep)
At first, I thought this was blasphemy; then I looked further down the list ands saw:
Truename Magic Introduction (from Chapter 6: Monsters of Waterdeep)
"Turname Magic" in the Monster chapter?
This looks like one massive cut-n-paste error. Don’t Panic. I believe the Greyhawk icons are still safe (if regulated to a slow demise of legendary figures).
EDIT: Looks like Demiurge1138 beat me to it.
Well, Greyhawk was the first campaign setting I ever bought, waaaay back in the day, and it's still my favorite setting. Of course, I ignore everything that came out after Gary left, with a few exceptions like Maure Castle. I'm glad to see Paizo breathing life into the old warhorse with Age of Worms, however, and I hope they'll continue to publish adventures set in Greyhawk.
It's always been a little baffling to me why WotC didn't give Greyhawk a proper hardcover edition when 3.0 was released. That was galling.
My suspicion is that their market research told them that the younger demographic needed a more "anime" type world to sink their teeth into (and buy a ton of supplements for). Aesthetics have changed, as evidenced by the "punk" direction the art of D&D took. Putting the beloved WoG through that process would have ruined it, and the Realms were suffering from the same fatigue that Greyhawk did back in the late 80's. It's probable that WotC calculated an extensive line of new WoG material wouldn't draw enough new fans and would alienate old holdouts like me (they're probably right about that); hence Eberron.
Now, I am not an Eberron basher. I think there are a lot of good ideas in there, and Keith Baker is a talented writer, but for my tastes, Eberron suffers from the marketing meta-design injected into it. The whole video-game, psuedo-tech approach leaves me cold.
I don't think they'll kill Greyhawk, exactly. They may decide to let it languish in print limbo along with all the other TSR worlds, which is basically the situation since the revision was released.
But here's the most important thing - Greyhawk WILL NEVER DIE. It has too many fans who will resurrect it. The thing about Greyhawk is that it was never meant to be a highly developed and detailed setting. The real flavor of Greyhawk was mostly in the modules - the setting itself was just designed to serve as a base that anyone could use to then develop to their own tastes - which is exactly what I have done. What was I susposed to do, retrofit all my campaign events to accomodate something like "From the Ashes"? No, thanks.
In short, whether Greyhawk survives depends on us, the gaming community, not some suits in Seattle or New York. Let them continue churning out the setting flavor of the week. When Eberron has gone the way of Dark Sun and Planescape, Greyhawk will still be around, because it's not based on passing fads or styles. That's why it's a CLASSIC.
I have to say, as the core setting to D&D I'm finding that Greyhawk is growing on me. Greyhawk has a universal feel in third edition, where, unlike all other settings, it's expanding on the world described in the core rules, rather than making up its own world.
Because of that, it has a certain authenticity to it. Faerun and Dragonlance might be cool because they're the worlds from the novels, and Eberron for being fresh and new, but I think most of us who started in third edition think of Greyhawk as the "real" setting of D&D.
My post here is going to be very vague for a very good reason. I'm in the know that WotC has recently approved some very GREYHAWK specific adventures. You might say quite a few.
There. That's all. Not going to get any more out of me.
That's fantastic news!
*WARNING - FANGIRL AHEAD*
want a pretty, shiny 300-400-500 page hardcover book, in color, with maps that inspire, world settings that intrigue me, prestige classes that make sense, setting descriptions that suck me in to such an extent that I can't wait to run home and read the book cover to cover without stopping.
*END FANGIRL RAVING*
Basically, I would like as much love and attention given to the setting as they did when updating the Forgotten Realms to third edition, and as much care and concern when providing us with Eberron.
That would be nice, and I would buy it in a heartbeat....but my GH campaign is getting all the homebrewed customization TLC that it needs. GH is like a piece of unfinished furniture--you can sit on it, but if you want to varnish it and painstakingly paint it by hand, you have to do that yourself.
...and that's why GH is #1 with me....and I ran a FR campaign for 15 years. I came back to GH with 3rd edition because the FRCS 3rd edition book was quite daunting and I wanted to quick launch a game.
I gave the FRCS to a friend and he's now running a FR campaign. It's like I have the best of both worlds--I get to run GH and play in FR.
I will eventually buy Eberron, because I managed to pick up Sharn for $6 on E-bay and it's pretty good. I might even eventually run an Eberron campaign, but I'm hesitant right now.
I'm all for nostalgia, but TSR was not a name associated with warm and fuzzy gamer love back in the late 80's early 90's. TSR was not only just as greedy as WotC, but they were worse in terms of management.
Anyone remember the film Major League and its sequel? I always think of TSR in exactly the same way. Some rich broad who knows nothing about gaming inherits the business from her dead husband and then proceeds to try and run it into the ground.
I thought I had resolved this but I think I still have a great deal of anger inside regarding what happened to my favorite hobby in the late 80's...the magic card trend was going to steal players away in any case, but TSR literally pushed gamers away with its incredibly bad products. Nightmare Keep stands as my personal most hated product of that era although I could name a dozen or so other really poor adventures compared to classics like Secret of Saltmarsh or Pharoah.
I looked on WotC's site today, and found Acererak (Tomb of Horrors fame/infamy) is in a People of Waterdeep chapter.
Noooo, Mr. Let's Kill Greyhawk As Fast As We Can! Acererak is not a Realms figure.
WotC's zeal to purge all traces of Greyhawk from the fabric of D&D saddens me. I'm guessing somewhere in 4/e they'll start describing Mordenkainen as a peer (or apprentice!) of Elminister, or just eliminate the name entirely.
You should know that I'm just plain cranky today -- don't take my ranting too seriously :(
Regards,
Jack
Um... if you'll look at the Tome of Magic preview, all of the entries are something of Waterdeep. The noctumancy class is a monster. Geryon is a prestige class.
There was a mistake, causing them to put the chapter titles from the Waterdeep book in place of the actual Tome of Magic chapter headings.
The basis of this whole thread (OMG Acererak is in FR!) is totally false. I'm glad it's given the Greyhawk zealots and FR/Eberron haters out there a chance to vent... but it's not happening. Acererak is free of the filthy paws of that insidious Greenwood.
He is, however, still dead. Sorry 'bout that.
Lol. Now thats funny.
Anyone remember the film Major League and its sequel? I always think of TSR in exactly the same way. Some rich broad who knows nothing about gaming inherits the business from her dead husband and then proceeds to try and run it into the ground.I thought I had resolved this but I think I still have a great deal of anger inside regarding what happened to my favorite hobby in the late 80's...the magic card trend was going to steal players away in any case, but TSR literally pushed gamers away with its incredibly bad products. Nightmare Keep stands as my personal most hated product of that era although I could name a dozen or so other really poor adventures compared to classics like Secret of Saltmarsh or Pharoah.
I really agree - the products coming out went from bad to worse to various levels of unbelievably inane.
That said I think the entire way this product is marketed is flawed. I think we should move over to some kind of subscription fee system and what we get for our subscriptions are continuously updated PDFs (that we download) so that rules are revised constantly while monsters, treasures, classes, prestige classes, feats and anything else I've missed are endlessly added and in potentially always revisable to make sure that they remain play balanced.
I love my hard covers but once I buy them the rules are kind of locked in stone - only an errata changes things and it can be hard to keep on top of the errata.
I think we should move over to some kind of subscription fee system and what we get for our subscriptions are continuously updated PDFs (that we download) so that rules are revised constantly while monsters, treasures, classes, prestige classes, feats and anything else I've missed are endlessly added and in potentially always revisable to make sure that they remain play balanced.
I can only assume you are joking.
Look, I understand the pen & paper rpg "industry" is desperate to produce a regular cash cow along the model of card games or WizKid minis, but if they did that exclusively, that would probably mark the end of my gaming purchases.
While the idea sounds tempting, it has several fatal flaws. For one thing, whether anyone believes it or not, there are still plenty of gamers who don't have the cash to shell out for a computer, but might get their parents to spring for a few D&D books. For another, it would be entirely reliant on your printer - not everyone games near a computer.
Last, but certainly not least, I'm only going to get to see a small, select preview of the product now, rather than being able to observe the whole thing at my FLGS to decide whether it's worth the full price or not. You can't always rely on word of mouth, as is evident to anybody who frequents an Internet forum. I mostly run for my group, which means more often than not, I'm the first one to consider a new game product.
I think miniatures are one way to generate regular revenue for game companies, but going completely to .PDF's would be a cruel blow to bibliophiles like me, and I'm willing to bet I'm not the only one who would howl at such a move.
Director of Narrative
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I think we should move over to some kind of subscription fee system and what we get for our subscriptions are continuously updated PDFs (that we download) so that rules are revised constantly while monsters, treasures, classes, prestige classes, feats and anything else I've missed are endlessly added and in potentially always revisable to make sure that they remain play balanced.
I can only assume you are joking.
While the idea sounds tempting, it has several fatal flaws. For one thing, whether anyone believes it or not, there are still plenty of gamers who don't have the cash to shell out for a computer, but might get their parents to spring for a few D&D books. For another, it would be entirely reliant on your printer - not everyone games near a computer.
I personally can't stand reading books on the computer. And if I like something I will just buy the book instead of spending whatever $$ on ink and paper that it takes to print it out and then carry a silly binder to my games.
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as much as you guys are going on about the drow....let's not forget what setting actually introduced them.
that's right, it was Greyhawk.
now...don't get me wrong, i love Oerth as much as the next person on this thread, but if we're gonna stroll down memory lane, let's not forget that.
but once again, this just goes to show the power of the setting...that a race could captivate so many people on such a world-wide level to the degree that it has inspired/generated such love/hate of them. and they were but a minor...not even minor, but a sub part of the setting.
bottom line...it's up to us to prevent this grand lady from dying out completely. they may take my love and my land, but i'm still capable of making mine Greyhawk!
sorry..too many years reading Marvel Comics...but that's something for another thread....
as much as you guys are going on about the drow....let's not forget what setting actually introduced them.
that's right, it was Greyhawk.
Indeed, but FR seems to include a disproportionately large amount of CG Drow running around on the surface weilding 2 scimitars...
I suppose a lot of my disagreement with FR comes from players that I've had in the past who were "FR rocks, everything else sucks, by the way I've got this new character I want to play, he's a drow ranger named Firrt...". Basically turned me off of the whole schebang. I've been likewise bored off of anything oriental (from the setting to the monk class).
Greyhawk seems to attract more... mature players, in my own experience. Eberron I like for other reasons. Other settings I'd play in a heartbeat: Dark Sun, Ravenloft, Planescape... and any of the homebrews I've cooked up, of course.
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Can I be controversial and say that I don't give a stuff about Greyhawk? While on a high-level intellectual plane, it would distress me to see any established game world fizzle out (but it happens, and I'm still managing somehow to carry on) I don't personally see anything especially interesting about Greyhawk. It seems a fairly bog standard sort of world which pretty much anybody could come up with these days.
Sure, it is the motherlode in terms of being the original setting that St Gary of Lake Geneva came up with. But so what? It embodies all of the cliches that "standard" D&D worlds possess (the basic level Tolkien rip-off, with it's fantasy version of West Europe/the Midwest, all of the Norse races, a general sort of cosiness, and so on). It really only has the benefit that, being fairly undeveloped, you can do what you like in it. But you can do that in any world you dream up.
Now, I have nothing against the support of Greyhawk. I respect people's nostalgia and warm feeling towards the setting. But I don't see anything really intrinsically interesting about the setting. I am probably talking from a position of ignorance, as I only really got into D&D round about 3.0E. But other than "Man, I have great memories from back in the 80's", I haven't really seen any compelling reasons why it should survive over and above, say, Dark Sun.
And for those castigating WotC - hey, if it wasn't for WotC there would be no D&D. As has been pointed out above, TSR went bust - they didn't make enough money. Where were all those gamers out there, putting their hands in their pockets to fund the hobby? Why couldn't you save TSR? Because it was a business that didn't respect the commercial realities.
WotC can't afford to dilute their marketing effort on a multiple of settings. That is no fun at all if they decide to ditch your favourite setting. But if they don't make profits, they won't make the product. It's a simple as that. Don't rely on some sort of "community spirit" to keep things going - it didn't work for TSR. I don't really like the fact, for example, that all WotC do is produce a series of expensive hard-bound books of variable quality, and very few adventures (which, after all, is what the game is about). But there are hard commercial reasons for them so doing. You can't get around it - they have to make money for the game to survive.
Personally, I live in fear of Hasbro pulling the plug on WotC and the game we all love, maybe because it doesn't generate enough return on capital or whatever - that is how modern businesses operate. So a bit less complaint about money-grubbing businessmen (who are just doing their job) and a bit more appreciation of the commercial realities might help.
Sorry to seem a little intemperate, but I am an accountant as well as a gamer, and I get frustrated by people always complaining about how bad WotC are (I have no connection with the organisation, by the way). They are putting money into the game and we are seeing the benefit, and they have been very enlightened about the Open Gaming Licence too, in that it means there is much more product coming off the production lines for D20 and D&D. Greyhawk has been a casualty of market forces - sad, but then again, that's business.
I can only assume you are joking.
No, not really - there my be kinks in my idea that need to be worked out but it wasn't a joke.
Look, I understand the pen & paper rpg "industry" is desperate to produce a regular cash cow along the model of card games or WizKid minis, but if they did that exclusively, that would probably mark the end of my gaming purchases.
They in fact must produce a cash cow or go under - Nature of the capitalist system. I guess we could argue that they ought to be altruists and be willing to make less money but create nothing but good content but I think that this really is just not likely to happen.
Hence I'm looking to 'channel' there efforts into making the game as good as it possibly can be instead of encouraging them to actually damage the product with endless supplements.
Now its not that I hate all supplements - if that were the case I'd buy the three core books and be done with it. I like the supplements but once their added we get an ever more fractured game with rules, classes etc. spread all over the place and, of course, rules that need a little fudging never get the proper attention they deserve.
I know from designing a wargame in which I made play testing a huge priority that it can't really be done perfectly in house and that it takes a lot of time. There is essentially a point of diminishing returns were you ship the product and in the end the customer base finds stuff you and your co-developers never even dreamed of.
So D&D can't really be playtested until its out on the street and interacting with the rest of the products out there.
While the idea sounds tempting, it has several fatal flaws. For one thing, whether anyone believes it or not, there are still plenty of gamers who don't have the cash to shell out for a computer, but might get their parents to spring for a few D&D books. For another, it would be entirely reliant on your printer - not everyone games near a computer.
Still computers are pretty much everywhere. There are a number of ways of getting access to one even if you personally don't happen to have one in your house. Really we are getting to the point were probably some extremely high percentage of the players, in the western world anyway, have a computer or have access to a computer.
Last, but certainly not least, I'm only going to get to see a small, select preview of the product now, rather than being able to observe the whole thing at my FLGS to decide whether it's worth the full price or not. You can't always rely on word of mouth, as is evident to anybody who frequents an Internet forum. I mostly run for my group, which means more often than not, I'm the first one to consider a new game product.
I think your missing what I'm arguing for. There is no real new product to review in FLGS, you own all the product via your subscription fee, all of it is integrated together into one very large rule set thats constantly being tinkered with to improve it and squash the problems. There is no longer any such thing as version 3.5 and there won't be a version 3.75 - the rules are constantly modified and adjusted to make sure that it all works together while the monsters, magic, feats and even whole adventures etc. are added to create ever expanding content. The constantly expanding content plus perpetual refinement of the rules is done to keep us coughing up the subscription fee.
Probably they try and get a sense as to what their subscribers want by doing online polls etc. if they make bad choices then the subscribers as a whole throw a hissy fit and they fix them - their goal has to be catering to whats wanted because there is always a danger that we just print out everything as is and cancel our subscription - on the other hand so long as they do a good job with the uber game then they have a cash cow from all the D&D players paying a their subscription fee. Its sort of like a MMORPG in that MMORPGs have constantly refining rules and every one is playing with the same rule set (barring house rules) but the rule set changes over time to fix problems as well as add new content.
I think miniatures are one way to generate regular revenue for game companies, but going completely to .PDF's would be a cruel blow to bibliophiles like me, and I'm willing to bet I'm not the only one who would howl at such a move.
The problem is that they are making endless streams of books and the game is getting ever more convoluted - even good new product makes the game that much harder to run and we end up with ever more of a mess as spells, feats and everything else - including actual rules and rule fixes scattered over an ever expanding set of books. The game gets ever more top heavy, inevitably, and the only fix is a whole new edition which then just starts the process over - alternatively we reach a point as a group of consumers were we are unhappy with the new product and less and less of us buy the new product because we can't handle any more new material anyway - WotC goes under. Of course they will make a stab at a 4th edition rather then actually go under but thats not going to be pretty - they split the community, and good, when they do that. I guess what I'm saying is that their business model is inherently unsustainable - inevitably really they destroy the product and the general community. I'm proposing a business model that instead of ultimately destroying the game would try and perpetually improve it while making money (which is the bottom line when push comes to shove) by having the community pay them to properly maintain and improve the game via a subscriber fee.
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That said I think the entire way this product is marketed is flawed. I think we should move over to some kind of subscription fee system and what we get for our subscriptions are continuously updated PDFs (that we download) so that rules are revised constantly while monsters, treasures, classes, prestige classes, feats and anything else I've missed are endlessly added and in potentially always revisable to make sure that they remain play balanced.
I love my hard covers but once I buy them the rules are kind of locked in stone - only an errata changes things and it can be hard to keep on top of the errata.
I think there is a lot to this idea - but it is a relatively unusual business model for this sort of thing, so I wonder if the "suits" would go for it. The devil, of course, would be in the detail.....
I think the comparison with MMORPGs is interesting, though there is a big difference - the rules for the computer games are effectively "invisible" - you wander through the gameworld and the computer does the hard work for you. The "talents" (to use WoW as an example) and other aspects may get updated, but apart from that the rules don't come very often into your game experience.
It's different for a tabletop RPG - rules are a big deal, and if they are updated constantly there could be problems with version control between players and disagreements about whether such a change is a good idea, viable, and so on.
But that is a caveat rather than an objection. You can avoid the need for continuous new editions - I, for one, would be deeply irritated if 4.0E arrives, as I have already bought the rulebooks for 3.0 twice. And I am sure the above comments can be dealt with pretty easily if there is a clear communication to subscribers as to which sections are changing, when, and so on.
I agree that there can be very few gamers without computer access, and this could be the way to go. Jeremy - lets's talk about a business plan..... :-)
I personally can't stand reading books on the computer. And if I like something I will just buy the book instead of spending whatever $$ on ink and paper that it takes to print it out and then carry a silly binder to my games.
Actually I hate reading books on the computer screen as well - books are meant to be read in bed or on the subway. But what I am talking about is not really just a PDF of a book. Its more like taking the concepts incorporated in Crystal Keeps SRD and applying it to all the products of the game - but also keeping a more readable format for the rules as well. It says something that I now mostly jump to Crystal Keeps SRD for rules instead of grabbing the Players Hand book - because Crystal Keep incorporates the errata its actually a more reliable source. The Players Handbook however is in an easier to read format. What I want combines these two concepts and applies them to the entire game.
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That said I think the entire way this product is marketed is flawed. I think we should move over to some kind of subscription fee system and what we get for our subscriptions are continuously updated PDFs (that we download) so that rules are revised constantly while monsters, treasures, classes, prestige classes, feats and anything else I've missed are endlessly added and in potentially always revisable to make sure that they remain play balanced.I love my hard covers but once I buy them the rules are kind of locked in stone - only an errata changes things and it can be hard to keep on top of the errata.
Obviously you are a fan of paying monthly for MMORPGs. I refuse to play them due to the subscription and D&D ruleset would be the same in my book. I want to buy a finished product, in a book or box, that allows me to play a game. I don't mind buying an expansion pack or supplemental rulebook, but I will not pay monthly or yearly for a game. I think that WotC should stop making 9 million rulebooks and publish several of the different campaign settings, and focus on making large scale adventures and players guides for each setting that they publish. Greyhawk, Darksun, Planescape, Dragonlance, whatever, instead of me buying 4 books and the corebooks I would buy all the books associated with a couple of settings. I would buy every Greyhawk book made, every Dark Sun book made, and probably every book from 1 or 2 more settings depending on the groups overall preference. One of the coolest things about 80's D&D was if you started getting bored with a setting, you could change settings and It was like a whole new game, new world, new creatures, new magic, etc. Now its either Ebberron or The Realms unless you want to update older rulesets to 3.5. Making a homebrew world is extremely time consuming and I just don't have the time, so I need someone to make one for me. I don't like Ebberron and I am not too keen on Forgotten Realms either. I am s**t out of luck in WotC's eyes. I want a choice of settings, I don't want to be force fed something and told that its good. I don't need "Races of Stone" or "Stormwrack" types of books, even if they are good. I have rules to use, I need places to use those rules.
FH
My post here is going to be very vague for a very good reason. I'm in the know that WotC has recently approved some very GREYHAWK specific adventures. You might say quite a few.
There. That's all. Not going to get any more out of me.
I'm assuming you mean for publication in Dungeon Magazine? If you didn't then that means WotC is planning on publishing new Greyhawk material. If you did, then it's just more of the same, which I'll gladly take instead of nothing at all.
Although, the phrase "quite a few" could imply a new adventure path based on Greyhawk.
Can I be controversial and say that I don't give a stuff about Greyhawk? But I don't see anything really intrinsically interesting about the setting. I am probably talking from a position of ignorance
It's okay NOT to be a GH fan. Like I said, every setting has their fans. You won't buy GH stuff, the GH fans may not buy stuff for another setting. It's like the whole Ford vs. Chevy thing, IMO. WotC's rewrite of D&D history to phase out GH is just as wrong as Chevy no longer making parts for the Citation.
I think there is a lot to this idea - but it is a relatively unusual business model for this sort of thing, so I wonder if the "suits" would go for it. The devil, of course, would be in the detail.....
I agree that the devil is in the details and of course its a really unusual system. Lots of refinements would inevitably be needed. Still it seems to me that this is one method of saving the game from the coming train wreck - and maybe I'm wrong about this whole thing ultimately destroying itself, but I really can't see how they can keep going the way they are going and survive - at some point I stop buying Monster Manuals - I just don't need Monster Manual XIV, nor am I all that interested in Magic of Icarnium III. One way or another we end up at 4th edition - which is the fall back position for when the hardbounds no longer sell however I don't see how a 4th edition can not but horribly fracture the community and cause a great deal of anger.
I think the comparison with MMORPGs is interesting, though there is a big difference - the rules for the computer games are effectively "invisible" - you wander through the gameworld and the computer does the hard work for you. The "talents" (to use WoW as an example) and other aspects may get updated, but apart from that the rules don't come very often into your game experience.
Well I was reaching with the comparison to MMORPGs. The various analogies I could come up with were MMORPGs; For their integrated rule set that changes over time, Crystal Keeps SRD which also has the rule set and its constantly updated, but it does not include all the content and it is a lousy format for a relaxing way to learn the game or even brush up on whole subsections of the rules - its great for spot checks of the rules however. Our subscriber fee would be well earned if they also worked to maintain a database akin to Crystal Keeps SRD but incorporating all the rules. That said it is no replacement for such things as in depth discussion on adventure design found in the DMG or the long version of how combat works found in the Players Handbook. My final thought for an analogy was the GAAP with its constantly evolving rules subset but its a lousy analogy - you know what GAAP is but most people reading this probably don't. I only know what it is because I own a bookstore that sells them.
It's different for a tabletop RPG - rules are a big deal, and if they are updated constantly there could be problems with version control between players and disagreements about whether such a change is a good idea, viable, and so on.
Well keep in mind that I think that one of the main motives for them to update the rules is that the consumer base is telling them that they totally dropped the ball on the rule in question and hence they are reacting as opposed to shoving things down our throat. In any case in your home game you can always do whatever the heck you want - just like we can today. I run a homebrew myself and Dwarves can't cast spells - I would never expect that this homebrew rule would ever be official - in the rules that I subscribe too it will say that Dwarves can be Wizards, I'll just have a some kind of notes for my personal players saying how my game differs from the orthodox game we are all subscribed to.
Your right of course that there will be disputes and long argument threads - but considering the freedom WotC will have to slightly tweak things I suspect more people will be happy more of the time then is the case currently - Warlock is a cool class but many people think its unbalanced while many feel that it is more or less fine - my bet is its very slightly unbalanced a little tweak here and there and most of us would probably fall in line with it as a perfectly viable class. Currently its hard to tweak the class - at best we end up with some errata somewhere but with the model I'm talking about its comparatively easy. However in the end there will always be disputes - when there is no clear consensus among the gaming community then WotC makes the final call - they can always come back later if things need tweaking.
But that is a caveat rather than an objection. You can avoid the need for continuous new editions - I, for one, would be deeply irritated if 4.0E arrives, as I have already bought the rulebooks for 3.0 twice. And I am sure the above comments can be dealt with pretty easily if there is a clear communication to subscribers as to which sections are changing, when, and so on.
Oh definitely communication would be a key component. Something like a news section that highlights whats been modified as well as point us in the direction of whatever new content is available - got to keep the subscribers happy!
I agree that there can be very few gamers without computer access, and this could be the way to go. Jeremy - lets's talk about a business plan..... :-)
The words 'Business Plan' give me the shakes - I made one a couple of years ago when my partners and myself decided to open a bookstore - it was a brutal experience and after a year we ultimately decided to fund the whole thing ourselves instead of going to banks - thus negating the main reasons behind making the business plan in the first place and eliminating the worst aspects of making it (arguing over wording and semantics - for hours on end).
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Obviously you are a fan of paying monthly for MMORPGs. I refuse to play them due to the subscription and D&D ruleset would be the same in my book. I want to buy a finished product, in a book or box, that allows me to play a game. I don't mind buying an expansion pack or supplemental rulebook, but I will not pay monthly or yearly for a game. I think that WotC should stop making 9 million rulebooks and publish several of the different campaign settings, and focus on making large scale adventures and players guides for each setting that they publish. Greyhawk, Darksun, Planescape, Dragonlance, whatever, instead of me buying 4 books and the corebooks I would buy all the books associated with a couple of settings. I would buy every Greyhawk book made, every Dark Sun book made, and probably every book from 1 or 2 more settings depending on the groups overall preference. One of the coolest things about 80's D&D was if you started getting bored with a setting, you could change settings and It was like a whole new game, new world, new creatures, new magic, etc. Now its either Ebberron or The Realms unless you want to update older rulesets to 3.5. Making a homebrew world is extremely time consuming and I just don't have the time, so I need someone to make one for me. I don't like Ebberron and I am not too keen on Forgotten Realms either. I am s**t out of luck...
That said I think the entire way this product is marketed is flawed. I think we should move over to some kind of subscription fee system and what we get for our subscriptions are continuously updated PDFs (that we download) so that rules are revised constantly while monsters, treasures, classes, prestige classes, feats and anything else I've missed are endlessly added and in potentially always revisable to make sure that they remain play balanced.I love my hard covers but once I buy them the rules are kind of locked in stone - only an errata changes things and it can be hard to keep on top of the errata.
I agree - that is what I want. But TSR tried that approach and went bust. I think Jeremy's point is very prescient - the business model as it stands is bust no matter how you look at it. It's an invidious position for a gamer to be in - we are a minority interest, and as such the economics of the situation don't seem to be playing out in our favour. :_(
We may just have to cut our coat according to the cloth. FH - let me ask you a question - what would you prefer: a subscription service or nothing at all? I'm not saying that Jeremy's throw-away comment about a subscription service is necessarily the way forward, but we need a reality check here. The "glory days" of D&D drove the premier purveyor of RPGs into the ground. We are all "sh!t out of luck" - that is the hand we have been dealt. You can't buck the market.
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Ok, a bit off-topic (sorry! But thought it a good place to ask):
Can anybody give me advice on which material I (as someone who just realized how cool GH really is) should try to buy in order to get the FEELING and the knowledge to keep up with you guys and to get to know what's going on in GH?
Modules, accessory and what-not...
If you don't want to hijack this thread - you might eMail me this info: dryder@t-online.de
Can I be controversial and say that I don't give a stuff about Greyhawk? ...
No, you can't :P
It's okay NOT to be a GH fan...
No, it's not :P
(I'm joking, of course)