Carrion Pit Area #5: Charlgar the Hill Giant Fighter 10 is listed has having the Greater Weapon Specialization feat.
Greater Weapon Specialization requires that you have at least 12 levels in fighter (see under Prerequisites on PHB page 95) in order to take this feat.
During Alastor Land's soliloquy before the Vault door, he references his "access to the tomb of Icosiol." This reference should be changed to the tomb of Zosiol, where he met his death.
|
This may not be an "error" as such, but I am wondering about how some of the CR calculations for the giants were set up. That the fire giant fighters in the Citadel are CR 14 apiece seems about right, and, by the same logic, it seems reasonable that Bram is CR 18 and Charlgar is CR 17. However, Kagro, with four more character levels than Bram, is the same CR; again, this isn't too unreasonable, as few of his extra special abilities are useful against the PCs. Still, he is significantly tougher than his lieutenant (a bit more hp, much better saves and AC), and CR 19 seems better to me.
However, why is the frost giant CR 18 with 16 levels of sorcerer? He's a super-tough melee fighter with good saves and a huge array of very useful spells. Surely he warrants a higher challenge rating - probably CR 20?
Creative Director
|
The CRs for monstes with character class levels are determined using the guidelies on pages 294-295. Basically, if a giant takes levels in a class that plays to his strengths (like fighter) the levels increase his CR by 1 for every level. If he takes class levels in a class that does not (like sorcerer), they increase his CR by .5 for every level until his class level = his hit dice, at which point the increase goes back to a 1:1 ratio.
The frost giant sorcerer may be a super tough melee fighter, but when he's fighting he's not spellcasting, and vice versa. Since these two skillsets don't work together, they don't increase his CR by nearly as much.
The DMG guideline on CR's and class levels work good for smaller stuff, but really fall apart at the higher HD critters. Theres no way a human Sorc 16 with 50 HP is CR 16, while a frost giant 16 sorc with 300+ HP, plus dozens of other benifits is only an 18. All he needs is a bunch of quickened spells to fight and cast and stomp and buff.
|
Creative Director
|
The DMG guideline on CR's and class levels work good for smaller stuff, but really fall apart at the higher HD critters. Theres no way a human Sorc 16 with 50 HP is CR 16, while a frost giant 16 sorc with 300+ HP, plus dozens of other benifits is only an 18. All he needs is a bunch of quickened spells to fight and cast and stomp and buff.
Quickened spells don't work for sorcerers, and at high level, hit points aren't nearly as important to survival as are saving throws and other defenses, but I can see your point.
More to the point, the CR system does indeed break down at high levels; a lot of a monster's effectiveness depends on the situation. A lone 20th level bard is certainly a less dangerous target than a lone balor, but give both groups ten CR 15 minions and suddenly the group led by the bard becomes MUCH tougher than the one led by the balor. Likewise, a dread wraith may only be CR 11, but against a group that has no clerics the dread wraith can cause an incredible amount of havoc. Throw in one cleric, and it becomes a non-encounter.
So in the end, we go for the midline, using the guidelines presented in the Monster Manual. For the most part, I find they're fairly accurate. If something's going to be tougher or easier for your particular group to handle, you should absolutely change the CR of the creature.
|
Creative Director
|
Carrion Pit Area #5: Charlgar the Hill Giant Fighter 10 is listed has having the Greater Weapon Specialization feat.
Greater Weapon Specialization requires that you have at least 12 levels in fighter (see under Prerequisites on PHB page 95) in order to take this feat.
Good catch. I'd suggest:
1: Let him keep the feat as is. Restricting these feats to fighters only seems silly; a bit too much of 1st edition's knack for defining characters by their limits rather than 3rd edition's knack for definining characters by their potential.
2: Replace that feat with Improved Critical (rock).
During Alastor Land's soliloquy before the Vault door, he references his "access to the tomb of Icosiol." This reference should be changed to the tomb of Zosiol, where he met his death.
Hmmm... the whole Alastor Land history doesn't sit well with me. It seems like a forced retroactive connection to the Whispering Cairn. He never truly gained access to the tomb until he was dead and now all of a sudden the PC's have Wind Duke blood? No, this sdoesn't sit well with me at all.
It's as if all the complaints on the message board of people worried that the Whispering Cairn does not seem to fit into the big picture led the Dungeon crew to insert this into their gameplan. While I'm happy with the "organic" nature of the adventure path (that is, things are not set in stone and there are people open to our feedback) this Alastor Land connection is just too forced.
Perhaps more conversations about how the other five pieces of the Rod of Seven Parts make their way into the party's hands.
I run AoW in Eberron, and one of the major changes I have made is Manzorian's role in the campaign. Manzorian is an extremely well placed member of the Chamber (as a member of the Arcane Congress) and uber-dragon. He witnessed Kyuss/Katashka's apotheosis as a young dragon, and has been working against the AoW ever since. He set the party up with Allustan (we had a TPK in TFoE) and has been running the whole show, following a portion of the draconic prophesy.
As 4 of the 5 characters that met Alastor are dead and the connection would be lost, IMC Manzorian will appear at this point and fill them in with the info that Alastor would normally provide. I am also dropping the Vaati/Order of the Storm bloodline, as the Draconic Prophesy fills this predetermined greatness role nicely.
----------------------------------------------------------------
(Rant Time)
The Whispering Cairn doesn't fit into the Kyuss plotline, and that is one of the things that makes it great. Not only is it one of the best, most challenging first level dungeon crawls I've ever seen, but it starts the campaign off on a completely different front. The characters motivation goes from "Treasure? Get it!" to "We are the only things that stands between salvation and complete ruin." This sets the stage for a lot of character growth, as the players find how deep in they actually are. Whispering Cairn also sets the stage for A Gathering of Winds, in which the PC's get a powerful weapon for the endgame.
Whispering Cairn sets the difficulty level for the AoW at "Wow, nasty," serves to get the PC's involved on a very basic level "We need coin to get out of Diamond Lake," and sets the stage for a more involved higher level adventure. It almost has a Planescape-esque unity of rings feel to it. As a relatively nasty DM (I seek an "Oh, crap" from my PC's every session) Whispering Cairn is what drew me to the AoW. I just wish it was followed by an equally engaging adventure.
TFoE was really a pace / tone / buzz-killer IMC. But then again, not every adventure can be as great as Whispering Cairn, The Champions Belt, The Spire of Long Shadows, A Gathering of Winds, Library of Last Resort, and Kings of the Rift...
To the designers and writers, keep up the great work! I drool over every new copy of Dungeon and my PC's are as engaged and happy as I've ever seen them (when they are not ducking for cover)
Rant over, I think thats six or seven coppers I owe you all...
Anarch of AoW
|
Creative Director
|
If having Alastor Land and the PCs be the carriers of the Wind Duke legacy doesn't work in your campaign, by all means you should cut it out. It's not meant to give the PCs an excuse to get into a new line of feats or prestige classes; it's purely and simply flavor. It can be cut without hurting the campaign's plot.
Thanks James! We are, afterall, the DM's :-D
Thanks again for a great campaign!
-Anarch
|
Knowing the high challenge level of the campaign and having read of many experiences at these forums, I'm expecting at least one or perhaps more of the current, original three party members to meet nasty ends at some point.
I like newly-introduced "joined by Vaati blood" concept, as it'll provide a mechanic to quickly bring new, replacement characters into the action if/when the reaper pays a visit. "Disturbing, prophetic dreams" in which new characters catch fleeting glimpses of the other characters and the death of previous PCs work well for me as transition-points, especially since we're playing in Eberron where the Draconic Prophecy could be playing a part in the heroes banding together--joined by the irresistible tug of fate and bonded through common, ancient blood.
Kind of brings a new meaning to the title "A Gathering of Winds", too, no?
Got it. Reading it. Loving it! Excellent high-powered fun.
I haven't read the whole thing yet but I definitely am digging it. The whole cinematic feel of dragons attacking a fortress of giants is very cool. More often than not these are monsters that are thrown into an adventure as "end bosses". The mother-of-all-carrion-crawlers is also a nice touch.
I have to agree with the Alastor Land thing seeming too forced, if this had been alluded to much earlier I suppose it would have worked okay. As written it seems to crop up out of no where.
|
While we're on the topic of possible errors; I was curious. Dragons are immune to paralysis, and the whole concept of Kongen-Thulnir is about being a place that is a bane to dragons. Yet the primary form of ammo for the catapults are the crawler loads. Which are deadly because of their ability to paralyze flying foes...
So I am curious, was this an oversight or am I missing an obvious piece of the puzzle?
Chuck
Dragons are immune to paralysis,
Chuck
MM says creatures of the Dragon Type have "Immunity to magic sleep effects and paralysis effects" (p. 308).
IMO this is worded ambiguously--if your interpretation is correct it more or less pulls the rug out from under a major premise behind this adventure. (If dragons are immune to carrion crawler brain juice's effects, why would they have been nurturing so many carrion crawlers for so long in the carrion pit? And thus why would there be a Mother of all Carrion Crawlers to swallow the key and set up one of the main encounters of the adventure?)
However, I would be inclined to rule that dragons are immune to magical sleep effects and magical paralysis effects. Like elves, they have a certain kind of vitality that makes them resistant to these kind of magic, so they could not be paralyzed by a hold monster spell, but they could theoretically be paralyzed by the poison in the crawler loads, or arguably even by a ghoul's touch (which is listed as an extraordinary ability). Of course, with high save bonuses, high constitution, and lots of hit dice, adult dragons are still not terribly vulnerable to such attacks. (An adult red dragon (Fort +18) has about a 30% chance per exposure of succumbing to the DC 24 of the crawler loads). I don't see why dragons should be completely immune to paralysis like undead or constructs--they have bodies that work in a fashion fairly similar to most living vertebrate animals, but just happen to be exceptionally tough and resilient.
Perhaps a more official interpreter would care to offer a ruling?
|
Creative Director
|
Dragons are indeed immune to paralysis, and so are immune to crawler loads as well. Kongen-Thulnir's anti-dragon motif is the result of the tinkering of the Order of the Storm, but the place has more problems than that. The giant tribes who control the ruins change often; the civil war taking place in the city when this adventure takes place is a good example of this. The crawler loads are meant more to defend against giant tribes (invading from without or within) and to defend against adventuring parties bent on looting the place.
For dragons, they've got guylines and harpoons. There was a fourth defense (a sort of wing-ripping load like chain shot) that got cut for space reasons.
However, I would be inclined to rule that dragons are immune to magical sleep effects and magical paralysis effects.
PARALYSIS
Some monsters and spells have the supernatural or spell-like ability to paralyze their victims, immobilizing them through magical means. (Paralysis from toxins is discussed in the Poison section below.)A winged creature flying in the air at the time that it becomes paralyzed cannot flap its wings and falls. A swimmer can’t swim and may drown.
Bolded for edification. Seems pretty clear to me that poisons are treated seperately from magical paralysis which is what a dragon is immune to.
|
|
Thanks to everyone for their explanations (especially James and Greg V!). Overall, I wanted to let Greg know that this is one of the best adventures that I have had the pleasure of reading. In fact the whole Age of Worms (and the Shackled City hardcover) have been excellent reads. I happen to be one of those old school gamers that love epic-length, all-inclusive adventures. Yes, I even broke down and bought "The World's Largest Dungeon" and I just got the "Red Hand of Doom" in the mail! Keep up the good work guys!
And keep writing good stuff like this Greg V! Being from Oklahoma myself, and having played D&D for ever 27 years; it's great to know there are other RPG gurus in the Panhandle State. Of course, I'm a Yankee now, but it wasn't always so!
Chuck
Dragons are indeed immune to paralysis, and so are immune to crawler loads as well.
OK--looked at MM entry on "Dragon" and saw that the guidance there was worded more clearly.
For dragons, they've got guylines and harpoons. There was a fourth defense (a sort of wing-ripping load like chain shot) that got cut for space reasons.
James or Greg, would you mind posting defense #4 here, for those who want to make things a bit more interesting? I assume there are a couple of spots with dual catapult rigs designed to launch this weapon? (My recollection of chain shot is that it was two cannon balls attached by a chain. The two balls were shot simultaneously, sending the whole assembly spinning forward to cut down a line of troops or foul a ship's rigging.) A lot of the batteries on the map are too small for multiple catapults--although I suppose a special twin-arm device is not out of the question. So where would you put these on the map?
The giants failed their Knowledge (arcana) check, and the dwarf rolled exceptionally well on his Bluff.
And you missed your Will save! Stick to your guns, man! :)
The SRD clearly states that paralysis from poison is different from paralysis effects. Accordingly they would be immune to poisons that cause unconciousness which I also don't think really fits.
Not sure where the surgical [*cough*] precision of 3.5 rules might lean but I think you had the right idea. <--- yeah that was a joke.
After all a dragons Fortitude save bonus is nothing to sneeze at.
It's funny that almost all of this thread is singing the praises of Greg's excellent adventure - anyone glancing at the messageboards would think that there was something wrong with it judging by the number of posts under an errors message.
Of course that makes me highly happy. Huzzah!
Chain (and bar) shot was used to destroy personnel and ship rigging, etc. They were two spherical balls connected by a chain or bar (obviously!). However, they were launched from a single cannon, not two. The "double cannon" idea simply ended up slaughtering the firing crew as synchronizing the two cannons could not perfected, and the chain whirled around the point of launch.
2: Replace that feat with Improved Critical (rock)....And now I can't get the image of Charlgar headbanging Beavis and Butthead-style while all his foes fall before him out of my head.
::rock::
I gave him leap attack.
When this giant charges he is gonna NUKE any PC he hits!
He never truly gained access to the tomb until he was dead and now all of a sudden the PC's have Wind Duke blood?
Crap. Wind Duke blood? I already set this up for a character in my campaign. Can anyone fill in some details about this event real quick, as I have to run a game in 2 days and haven't seen 133 yet?
He never truly gained access to the tomb until he was dead and now all of a sudden the PC's have Wind Duke blood?Crap. Wind Duke blood? I already set this up for a character in my campaign. Can anyone fill in some details about this event real quick, as I have to run a game in 2 days and haven't seen 133 yet?
A small detail, easily modified to suit your campaign. The PCs are assumed (along with Alastor Land, whose ghost reappears briefly) to have a touch of Vaati blood--they are descendents of the original caretakers of the Vaati tombs or some such. It should be easy to modify so that your Vaati-blood PC can feel special (assuming he lives that long).
Chain (and bar) shot was used to destroy personnel and ship rigging, etc. They were two spherical balls connected by a chain or bar (obviously!). However, they were launched from a single cannon, not two. The "double cannon" idea simply ended up slaughtering the firing crew as synchronizing the two cannons could not perfected, and the chain whirled around the point of launch.
Not visualizing the mechanics of this very well, though I see the problem with synchronization clearly. Did they load two balls into one cannon, or just hang the second ball out through the gun port and let it be pulled along by the first?
Okay as to the crawler loads. My tongue in cheek appears to not have definitively solved the crisis (go figure).
So as to the crawler loads. I'd say have them work on dragons or not as you see fit. Until some Sage Advice column or official errata comes out, there may not be an official answer (though in hindsight I suspect dragons are probably immune).
Unfortunately I think you are right. (I pulled out my books last night for a bit.) I think that in 3.0 ed you would be on pretty strong ground but in 3.5 rules it seems that dragons are immune to paralysis as the condition is defined rather than paralysis as a magical effect. Looking at remove paralysis and neutralize poison doesn't clarify anything either.
This is even more in a gray area when you consider that the carrion crawler as written in the MM doesn't even use poison (not sure if that is relevent but it's hard to make the case the poison is effective when a dragon can sit down to heaping pile of crawlers with little to worry about but if you chop off their heads and alchemy them up they suddenly get deadly!).
My guess is the original creator of carrion crawler brain juice should have stuck with poisons causing debilitation through ability damage instead of just picking a condition for the poison. (If I were to fix this I would say the poison causes your Dex to temporarily drop to 0 as the poison floods through your nervous system.)
Regardless, the adventure rocks and I hope you keep plugging along for Dungeon magazine, Greg.
Chain shot was all loaded in the barrel, the spheres being significantly smaller than the bore. Same with bar shot, the whole loaded like sliding a small set of dumbbells into the cannon. These were obviously not aerodynamic and very inaccurate, used only at close range.
This whole discussion is giving me some great ideas for anti-dragon artillary.
This whole discussion is giving me some great ideas for anti-dragon artillary.
Thanks, me too! The only difficulty, I think, is that it's much more difficult to target accurately with a catapult than with a cannon. Although, if you can load five or ten bar- or chain-shot like loads into the catapult at once, you can perhaps create an area attack, requiring a reflex save to avoid getting hit by 1d6 or 1d10 of the objects--if they do a certain amount of damage they reduce the dragon's flying ability. Much like what Greg already posted, though.
|
|
Kinda of like using grapeshot (i.e. they would load lots of little round balls into the cannon and fire at troops. The idea being to disable and take out the troops. It wasn't so much to kill but more to maim. It was also a very powerful psychological weapon too. If the enemy was using grapeshot against you, chances were a lot of people weren't going to be 'walking' away.) Another idea might be since the order of the storm was involved (,and they were mainly high level druids,) then have the giants with ammo for the cataputs that are magically empowered ammo that is enchanced with an entangle type spell that if it hits a target it tries to grapple it. Would work wonders on flying dragons or anything else trying to fly in.
Tallknight
What about a weighted net? It folds up like the net in the PH, has 4-6 weights which help the net to spread as it flies through the air--a big net could effectively target a fairly large area, allowing 30-50 feet from launch point before it spreads out properly. If dragon in area fails reflex save, it is entangled and can't flap its wings--if it makes the save its flight is hampered. Just an idea. (Probably a lot of work to make for a one shot weapon, but they could be recovered after the battle by any giant who doesn't mind hiking to the bottom of the canyon and untangling nets from two week dead dragon carcasses.)
|
|
Funny that you mention that. One of the early ideas was actually basically a big tanglefoot bag launched from the catapults. It just seemed too unlikely to hit, so I don't believe we pursued it. With the spread effect of a load of crawler heads, even with attack penalties, we figured that enough would be able to hit the dragons' low touch AC to be effective.
What can I say Greg V but that great minds must think alike ;-) although I would have to try play testing it to see how it works in play. Seeing as how Dragons are not renown for being aerobatically inclined. Powerful flyers yes but not quick turners in most cases.
Tallknight
I don't have it yet, so I'm just shooting from the hip based on what I've read in the previous adventures, but didn't the dragons start up their assault after Dragotha learned of the place in "Library of Last Resort"? That would explain why the giants have spent years cultivating these cool weapons that suddenly don't work so well.
One thought I had was a contact poison which does Dex damage.
Ironically dragon's bile poison (which is a contact poison) does Strength damage. I could certainly see the enterprising dwarf whip up some of that (from ample dragon corpses lying around) which combined with the 'harpon-and-rocks' you could overcome that encumberance threshold quicker.
Of course the easiest retcon would simply change the carrion crawler loads to do Dex damage, the bane of all dragons. A couple of hits from contact poison doing 3d6 Dex damage would do the trick.
Friends,Gamers,Fellow DM's, lend me your eyes,
I come to bury Kings of the Rift not to praise it
The evil that men do lives after they are published;
The good is oft second guessed to the cutting room floor.
My big beeef with this adventure is:
Where is the beef, er loot!
Aside from some high powered items on some of the protagionists and a cool flametongue lying under some bedding there is no cool loot.
I read through the whole adventure knowing there is a super cool vault and all I get was some lousy phylactery?!
I emphasize with the angry frost giant sorcerer. I am tempted to use "Return to White Plume Mountain" and steal an item or two from the end of that and put it in the vault as well. I just can't see the druiids going through all the expense of building this super hard to get into vault with all the extra room not throw in a few extra goodies that they thought should be locked away for safekeeping.
Aside from that, I did enjoy parts of the adventure, particularly the mother of all carrion crawlers..nice touch...no treasure there either..
Anyway, all this rambling makes me wonder off topic whether the Druids of the Storm were related to the druids in White Plume Mountain or whether the idea was copied given that Dragotha originated from those adventures.
I just finished reading the adventure yesterday, and I like it very much. It has a very heroic feel to it - how much more heroic than battling dragons and giants (and lots of both!) at the same time can it get ?
But it seems to be quite hard. Sure, the PCs should be level 18 to get into it, but the overall CRs seem pretty tough. There seem to be a lot encounters with CR 20. Or is it just my perception ?
Stefan
I just finished reading the adventure yesterday, and I like it very much. It has a very heroic feel to it - how much more heroic than battling dragons and giants (and lots of both!) at the same time can it get ?
But it seems to be quite hard. Sure, the PCs should be level 18 to get into it, but the overall CRs seem pretty tough. There seem to be a lot encounters with CR 20. Or is it just my perception ?Stefan
Nearly all of the modules in this AP have several extremely tough encounters--starting with the acid beetles and mad slasher in WC. In this one, though, most of the tough encounters can easily be modified by the DM. With dragon encounters, start with what you think is a manageable number of dragons given the PCs current state, and if it looks like the PCs are having it too easy, you can very easily drop in some reinforcements. Since the whole city is under siege by "more dragons than the PCs can handle," I don't think you should consider the numbers in the published adventure as more than a guide. You can describe lots of dragons flying around using their breath weapons, battering buildings with their tails, feasting on hapless bugbears and trogs that they catch in the open, occasionally being shot down by giant artillery or crashing into the protective cables, flying to temporary perches on the opposite side of the canyon, etc. Make it clear that the PCs need to use stealth to get around unless they want to fight half a dozen or more dragons. And regardless, make sure to hit them with a few dragons when the cross a bridge, attempt to climb or fly down to the lower city, etc.
As for giants--there are very few giants that are not amenable to diplomacy in this module--and players should be rewarded for using that approach. Their mission is not, after all, to slaughter every last giant, but to recover/destroy the phylactery. And to accomplish that, it's much easier if they talk to some giants instead of slaughtering them--that way they'll know where to start looking. Also, the giants are mostly entrenched in various buildings, and there are only a few buildings the PCs need to enter to accomplish their mission. So the PCs could alternatively dodge thrown boulders and ballista shots through most of the city with few direct confrontations--using stealth and protection magic to minimize their exposure even to these hazards. The only really necessary confrontations are in the Citadel of Weeping Dragons and the Carrion Pit, and even some of those might be avoided or made easier with the help of diplomacy.
So, the battles with the named dragons and with the marilith in the Citadel, and perhaps the Mother Crawler are toughest. And there might be a huge battle in the phylactery vault depending on how the PCs handle the fabler, Kagro, and Vercinabex Tor--if they've failed to dispose of these beforehand, they might be hard pressed to fight one or more of these characters on top of Brazzemal the burning. But it's the climactic scene--would you have it any other way?
So, the battles with the named dragons and with the marilith in the Citadel, and perhaps the Mother Crawler are toughest. And there might be a huge battle in the phylactery vault depending on how the PCs handle the fabler, Kagro, and Vercinabex Tor--if they've failed to dispose of these beforehand, they might be hard pressed to fight one or more of these characters on top of Brazzemal the burning. But it's the climactic scene--would you have it any other way?
That were some very good hints for modifying the adventure, thanks.
The climactic battle with all those you mentioned above, and perhaps the two Raam as well and the negative effects of the Phylactery seems to me to spell doom for pretty much any group, even if they should be higher than level 18. But it would surely make for an impressive and unforgettable scene, even in case of a TPK (which does not need to be the end of it, at these levels).Just as an aside: The Raam don´t happen to be inspired by the Rom from the Al-Qadim setting, or do they ? ;-)
Stefan
Chain shot was all loaded in the barrel, the spheres being significantly smaller than the bore. Same with bar shot, the whole loaded like sliding a small set of dumbbells into the cannon. These were obviously not aerodynamic and very inaccurate, used only at close range.
You can find some illos of chain & bar shot here.
|
Creative Director
|
Just as an aside: The Raam don´t happen to be inspired by the Rom from the Al-Qadim setting, or do they ? ;-)
Stefan
Yup! The original monster's name was "Rom" but since we here at Paizo are too obsessed about copying names from comic books and we got called out on Kilraven earlier... we changed the spelling slightly but kept everything else.