If any DMs out there have a monk in the group kill the character at a low level...it gets outta hand fast.
Here are the latest debates that came up while my party's uber-monk grappled every opponent that they came across...
#1.) can a pinned opponent use a breath weapon?
#2.) can Flurry of Blows be used to make four grapple/pin attempts?
#3.) if a pinned/grappled opponent has multiple natural attacks, do they get an attempt to break the grapple/pin for each? If so, do they retain any remaining attacks after successfully breaking the grapple? For example, if somebody grapples a dragon (6 natural attacks) does the dragon get six attempts to break it? If the dragon does so on the second attack, can it make its remaining attacks?
Yes, the monk grappled a dragon...as well as a pyrohydra and a cloud giant to name a few. Someone really should look at the sort of chaos that can be wrought with these newfangled v3.5 rules.
If any DMs out there have a monk in the group kill the character at a low level...it gets outta hand fast.
Here are the latest debates that came up while my party's uber-monk grappled every opponent that they came across...
#1.) can a pinned opponent use a breath weapon?
#2.) can Flurry of Blows be used to make four grapple/pin attempts?
#3.) if a pinned/grappled opponent has multiple natural attacks, do they get an attempt to break the grapple/pin for each? If so, do they retain any remaining attacks after successfully breaking the grapple? For example, if somebody grapples a dragon (6 natural attacks) does the dragon get six attempts to break it? If the dragon does so on the second attack, can it make its remaining attacks?Yes, the monk grappled a dragon...as well as a pyrohydra and a cloud giant to name a few. Someone really should look at the sort of chaos that can be wrought with these newfangled v3.5 rules.
Well fortunatly I did in fact kill the Monk character early.
Still I have to really wonder if its concievable for a Monk to grapple a Dragon by the rules. That I would just have to see.
Well, a half-ogre monk can. My daugter's character, a half-ogre monk grapled a medium blue dragon a few months back, and pinned it so as to keep it from using its breath. She wasn't doing any damage, it it was slapping the heck out of her, but it allowed the rest of the group to hack it to pieces. Not exactly glorious dragon slaying, but it worked. But then again, a large sized monk has a massive advantage in grappling.
Persistent Righteous Might on a monk with the Monk's Belt can be a real killer
If you were to follow the rules then I suppose a monk could, potentially, grapple a dragon.
However, you could just make a common sense ruling that its not even possible for him to wrap his arms around a dragons wrist.
I would simply tell my player to forget it and move on. Sometimes, even though it may state it in the rules, you have to say NO.
ok, well first, yes a monk can flurry and get the additional grapple checks. Yes a Dragon can try to break the grapple with all of its natural attacks, and no if it breaks on the second attack it is done attacking,
persistant spell can not be applied to righteous might b/c it uses a spell slot 6 levels higher making that an 11th level spell, and the monk could not have righteous might cast on him the range is personal which means only the caster, unles it was out of a wand. that should clear things up for you.
A couple of notes when dealing with this.
- When you establish a Grapple you get to move into the grappled creatures space automatically - but any allies that opponent has get attacks of opportunity against you and you've lost your dexterity bonus so those attacks of opportunity have more chance to hit.
- If your grappling a creature thats larger then you you occupy all the spaces of the larger creature for purposes of determining if an ally of your opponent can attack you.
- You may grab a creature larger then you but you may not establish or maintain a hold on a creature two or more sizes larger then you. So a medium creature may grapple normally with a Large creature but may NOT establish or maintain a hold over a a huge or larger creature.
- ah ha I found an official quote on the natural weapons part of your question
"You can't attack with two weapons while grappling, even if both are light weapons. If you have multiple natural weapons, however, you can use all of them while grappling. In many cases, though, you're better off making an opposed grapple check to damage your opponent rather than making an attack with a natural weapon (see the section on damaging your opponent for details)."
- Here's another interesting quote.
"A spell-like ability has no verbal, somatic, material, focus, or XP components, so you can use one while grappling. To do so, you must succeed on a Concentration check; the DC for the check is exactly the same as it would be if you were casting a spell. See Rules of the Game for more information on spell-like abilities."
- Ah ha - more on the natural weapons part of your question.
"Damage Your Opponent: You can make an opposed grapple check to deal damage to your opponent when grappling. If you win the opposed check, you deal nonlethal damage equivalent to an unarmed strike (1d3 points for Medium attackers or 1d2 points for Small attackers, plus Strength modifiers). If you want to deal lethal damage, you take a -4 penalty on your grapple check.
Monks (and a few other characters), deal more damage with unarmed strikes than other characters, and the damage is lethal. However, a monk can choose to deal their damage as nonlethal damage when grappling without taking the usual -4 penalty for changing lethal damage to nonlethal damage.
Whoa nelly ... check this bit out
If a creature has natural weaponry, it deals lethal natural weapon damage with a successful opposed grapple check (its natural weapons are just like unarmed strikes). A creature with natural weaponry can choose to deal nonlethal damage in a grapple by taking a -4 penalty."
So basically your dragons got its full array of weaponry - does not even take a penalty - it only takes a penalty in the unlikely event that it wants to do nonlethal damage. That Monk just took the full Dragon routine; claw, claw, bite, wing buffet, wing buffet, tail slap - that ought to make him think twice before deciding to do the Tango with a Dragon.
- OK here's some more official quotes on monsters and grappling.
"Monsters and Grappling
The rules don't say much about how monsters conduct grappling combat.
It's easiest, however, to allow a monster one grappling attack per natural weapon it has, provided that the natural weapon can hold on to the target in some fashion. The monster uses its listed grapple bonus when attacking with a primary natural weapon (or weapons) and its listed grapple bonus -5 for any secondary natural weapons. If the monster's grapple attack deals damage to a foe, the damage is lethal (unless the monster takes a -4 penalty to deal nonlethal damage) and equal to the damage rating for the natural weapon. For example, a troll grappling with a claw has a grapple bonus of +14 and deals 1d6+6 point of damage with the attack.
A slightly more complex method for handling grappling monsters is to allow the monster one grapple attack for every 5 points of base attack bonus it has. If the monster has natural weaponry, it deals lethal damage from one natural attack. The monster can use each natural weapon only once during its turn. If the monster's base attack allows it more grapple attacks than it has natural weapons, it must deal normal unarmed damage for any extra attacks.
Improved Grab: The improved grab special attack allows a monster to make a grab attack as part of a regular melee attack with a particular natural weapon (usually a bite or claw). If the attack hits, the natural weapon deals damage normally, and the monster immediately makes an opposed check to establish a hold. The attack doesn't provoke an attack of opportunity. Since the attack already dealt damage when it hit, a successful hold deals no extra damage. Each successful grapple check the attacker makes during successive rounds automatically deals the damage indicated for the attack that established the hold. (This works just like making a grapple check to deal damage.)
A creature with the improved grab special attack has the option to conduct the grapple normally, or simply use the part of its body it used in the improved grab to hold the opponent. If it chooses to do the latter, it takes a -20 penalty on grapple checks, but it is not considered grappled itself; the creature does not lose its Dexterity bonus to AC, still threatens an area, and can use its remaining attacks against other opponents. This is handy for really big monsters, such as giant squids and krakens.
When a creature gets a hold after an improved grab attack, it pulls the opponent into its space (rather than entering the foe's space). According to page 310 in the Monster Manual, the grabbed creature's involuntary movement does not provoke attacks of opportunity. A creature with the improved grab special attack and reach drags a grabbed foe a considerable distance.
A creature with the improved grab special attack can move without making an opposed grapple check, provided it can drag the opponent's weight. The creature's movement and the involuntary movement by anyone it drags along provokes attacks of opportunity normally.
Constrict: Creatures with the constrict special attack deal extra damage when grappling. Most creatures with this attack usually also have the improved grab special attack. A creature deals extra constriction damage when it first grabs a foe and establishes a hold. If the creature later makes a grapple check to deal damage to a creature in its grasp, it deals damage from the natural weapon it uses in the attack (if any) and extra constriction damage as well."
All the above pulled out of the Rules of the Game articles on Grappling over at the Wizards of the Coast website.
These rules are actually kind of nice for the harried DM - in some cases it offers a couple of options on how monsters work in a Grapple and pretty much leaves it up to the DM to decide whats the official word in his campaign while giving either interpretation something akin to official sanction. For myself I think I'll go with monsters having a separate attack for each natural weapon attack they happen to have. I don't want my players grappling Lions and I think that interpretation of the rules discourages the behavior best.
OK so to sum up...
[u]#1.) can a pinned opponent use a breath weapon?[/u]
I think yes, with the appropriate concentration check. A Breath Weapon is a Spell Like Ability and the Rules of the Game seemed to indicate that these were pretty much always usable even in a Pin so long as the appropriate concentration check was made.
[u]#2.) can Flurry of Blows be used to make four grapple/pin attempts?[/u]
Unfortunately I think that the rules support the concept that flurry of blows could in fact be used to get more attacks in terms of grabbing and pinning. The rules talk a lot about being able to make grapples for each separate attack taking into account their various penalties. Flurry of blows adds another attack - seems perfectly legal ... unfortunate that.
[u]#3.) if a pinned/grappled opponent has multiple natural attacks...[can they use them after breaking the grapple?].[u]
This one is really not covered well anywhere I could find. I think it can go either way and in this nebulous space you, as the DM decide.
One option is YES - the opposed grapple checks themselves don't actually involve actions so I'd think one could rule that the dragon is doing a full round attack and finish off its natural attacks. Once you let that fly in your campaign though it will work both ways - your monks going to be able to use his remaining attacks if he escapes a grapple as well.
That said NO is pretty good too - if the beasties have a number of natural attacks they can always try and rip their opponents limb from limb with most of their attacks and then use the last couple to try and break the hold.
|
Responses are inline.
If any DMs out there have a monk in the group kill the character at a low level...it gets outta hand fast.
This is why most intelligent enemies (like dragons) will not engage in melee combat if they can help it (i.e. Fly). Most dragons have been alive long enough to know the dangers of getting within reach of an enemy they don't know the strengths of.
The 3.5 FAQ is what will help you a lot when it comes to confusing grappling issues. Many questions are answered in it, and I'll list the associated page numbers for the FAQ in my responses below, if applicable.
#1.) can a pinned opponent use a breath weapon?
No. The text in the SRD states that the individual that pinned the opponent can, at his option, not allow the pinned person to speak. I would think if you can't speak, you can't use a breath weapon (your mouth is probably being held shut). (See SRD under "If You're Pinned By An Opponent".)
#2.) can Flurry of Blows be used to make four grapple/pin attempts?
Yes, but with the associated penalty to the extra attacks, if any exist. (FAQ, page 35.)
#3.) if a pinned/grappled opponent has multiple natural attacks, do they get an attempt to break the grapple/pin for each? If so, do they retain any remaining attacks after successfully breaking the grapple? For example, if somebody grapples a dragon (6 natural attacks) does the dragon get six attempts to break it? If the dragon does so on the second attack, can it make its remaining attacks?
Yes and Yes. If you have multiple natural attacks you can perform any of the actions listed under "If You're Grappling" that aren't specifically listed as Standard or Move actions, as indicated in the first paragraph in that list. The relevant sentence is:
"Some of these actions take the place of an attack (rather than being a standard action or a move action). If your base attack bonus allows you multiple attacks, you can attempt one of these actions in place of each of your attacks, but at successively lower base attack bonuses."
It is quite easy to envision the dragon attempting to shake the grappler off. Again, a dragon is not stupid (well at least not entirely stupid in the case of a white dragon) and if it can't seem to shake someone off, it could just take the -4 penalty on attack and choose to attack with all of its natural weapons in an attempt to kill the person grappling it.
Yes, the monk grappled a dragon...as well as a pyrohydra and a cloud giant to name a few. Someone really should look at the sort of chaos that can be wrought with these newfangled v3.5 rules.
I assure you there are many people playing D&D 3.5 out there (including myself) who don't see any major unbalancing issues with grappling monks. Pyrohydras and Cloud giants have natural attacks, why didn't they just take the -4 to attack the monk and attempt to kill him/her? Well, the hydra may not figure that out for a round or so (they're nto very intelligent), but a cloud giant sure is.
-Shawn S.
|
|
So basically your dragons got its full array of weaponry - does not even take a penalty - it only takes a penalty in the unlikely event that it wants to do nonlethal damage. That Monk just took the full Dragon routine; claw, claw, bite, wing buffet, wing buffet, tail slap - that ought to make him think twice before deciding to do the Tango with a Dragon.
This is not correct. Look at the 3.5 FAQ on page 20/21 where the Sage specifically uses an example regarding attacking with a light weapon (which is the same as attacking with a natural weapon in a grapple). If you have a natural weapon you can do one of two things with it:
1. Make an opposed grapple check to do lethal damage with that natural weapon.
2. Make an attack at -4 and do lethal damage. This does _not_ require a grapple check. It is simply a normal attack with a penalty to the attack roll.
This is important for creatures that want to damage an opponent that they have difficulty winning a grapple check against.
-Shawn S.
This is not correct. Look at the 3.5 FAQ on page 20/21 where the Sage specifically uses an example regarding attacking with a light weapon (which is the same as attacking with a natural weapon in a grapple). If you have a natural weapon you can do one of two things with it:1. Make an opposed grapple check to do lethal damage with that natural weapon.
2. Make an attack at -4 and do lethal damage. This does _not_ require a grapple check. It is simply a normal attack with a penalty to the attack roll.
This is important for creatures that want to damage an opponent that they have difficulty winning a grapple check against.
-Shawn S.
Hmm...
what version of the FAQ are you looking at? I went and downloaded the most recent version just before heading off to check the Rules of the Game articles. My version is 01/26/2006 and I don't see the section you are refering to. Page 20/21 seems to mostly be talking about Equipment and such like.The stuff in black italics above are direct quotes - I used cut and paste - from the Rules of the Game articles on Wizards site. Basically I'm fairly certian they are official except when they post something like TOTALLY UNOFFICIAL RULE: which they do sometimes do in that series of articles.
|
|
Hmm...
what version of the FAQ are you looking at? I went and downloaded the most recent version just before heading off to check the Rules of the Game articles. My version is 01/26/2006 and I don't see the section you are refering to. Page 20/21 seems to mostly be talking about Equipment and such like.
In that version of the FAQ (I had the older version but just downloaded the 1/26/2006 version to check the page) it is in the upper-left area of page 24 (which is only part of the answer that starts on page 23). It is answering a question about armor spikes.
-Shawn S.
OK I went back and read the articles again and I think you may be also correct... heres the relevant section.
"Attack Your Opponent: You can make an attack with an unarmed strike, natural weapon, or light weapon against another character you are grappling. You take a -4 penalty on such attacks.
You can't attack with two weapons while grappling, even if both are light weapons. If you have multiple natural weapons, however, you can use all of them while grappling. In many cases, though, you're better off making an opposed grapple check to damage your opponent rather than making an attack with a natural weapon (see the section on damaging your opponent for details)."
OK and the rules refer to a damaging your opponents section so lets get that into the descussion as well.
Damage Your Opponent: You can make an opposed grapple check to deal damage to your opponent when grappling. If you win the opposed check, you deal nonlethal damage equivalent to an unarmed strike (1d3 points for Medium attackers or 1d2 points for Small attackers, plus Strength modifiers). If you want to deal lethal damage, you take a -4 penalty on your grapple check.
Monks (and a few other characters), deal more damage with unarmed strikes than other characters, and the damage is lethal. However, a monk can choose to deal their damage as nonlethal damage when grappling without taking the usual -4 penalty for changing lethal damage to nonlethal damage.
"[i][b]If a creature has natural weaponry, it deals lethal natural weapon damage with a successful opposed grapple check (its natural weapons are just like unarmed strikes). A creature with natural weaponry can choose to deal nonlethal damage in a grapple by taking a -4 penalty."
OK so what do we got here...
It appears that one can attack with a natural weapon at -4 or you can make opposed grapple checks.
The first paragraph states that "In many cases, though, you're better off making an opposed grapple check to damage your opponent rather than making an attack with a natural weapon."
OK so maybe there are lots of cases where opposed grapple checks are a better option ... but many cases is not all cases --- presumably one exception to this general rule is if you happen to be a Dragon with a deep seeded desire to rip a monk thats grappling you limb from limb.
Rules are great every game needs them - but grapple a dragon. Well I guess its possible if the dragon is young enough - from the nature of the posts I am assuming the dragon is full grown. Even using the rules an dragon is going to get a size bonus on the grapple of around +8 to +12, and has a strength in the 30s. The rules explicitly state that you can't hold a creature two size categories larger.
Basically if someone tried it (that wasn't within 2 size categories - I would rule 0 that the attempt would be ill conceived at best - and probably rule that the creature could with a successful touch attack (should be pretty easy for a dragon) throw the character into the wall doing a lot of fall damage.
Rules are important - they are also subject to interpretation. I would try to interpret them to make sense in the world I was running, rather than let a player rules lawyer themselves into something ridiculous.
Rules are great every game needs them - but grapple a dragon. Well I guess its possible if the dragon is young enough - from the nature of the posts I am assuming the dragon is full grown. Even using the rules an dragon is going to get a size bonus on the grapple of around +8 to +12, and has a strength in the 30s. The rules explicitly state that you can't hold a creature two size categories larger.
Basically if someone tried it (that wasn't within 2 size categories - I would rule 0 that the attempt would be ill conceived at best - and probably rule that the creature could with a successful touch attack (should be pretty easy for a dragon) throw the character into the wall doing a lot of fall damage.
Rules are important - they are also subject to interpretation. I would try to interpret them to make sense in the world I was running, rather than let a player rules lawyer themselves into something ridiculous.
Yeah we grapple huge things alot in my campaign but they are climb checks and not grapple checks and the creature is not hindered usually.
To the breath weapon issue. Can it fire on off while grappling? yes. Can it fire when pinned? NO WAY. When your pinned you are helpless and anyone not grappling you can just waltz over and finish you off. So while pinned the ONLY thing you can do is try to break free. At least thats what I'm remembering for what little that's worth.
A few points after reading through MM and DMG.
A dragon's breath weapon is a supernatural ability (not spell-like) and does not suffer an attack of oppurtunity. therefore IMO would not require a concentration check to use in a grapple.
The breath weapon can be used even if the creature cannot breath; although with its mouth pinned shut ....?
When pinned you are immobile not helpless. You cannot coup de grace someone who is pinned.
igi
|
|
To the breath weapon issue. Can it fire on off while grappling? yes. Can it fire when pinned? NO WAY. When your pinned you are helpless and anyone not grappling you can just waltz over and finish you off. So while pinned the ONLY thing you can do is try to break free. At least thats what I'm remembering for what little that's worth.
This is not correct. Read the rules again. If you are pinned you are NOT helpless and cannot be coup de grace'd ("finished off"). Can someone walk up and stab you? Sure, but it is no different from stabbing someone that is grappled.
Careful with declaring things that do not follow the rules as fact. That is half the reason people get confused about how grappling works.
-Shawn S.
Well, a half-ogre monk can. My daugter's character, a half-ogre monk grapled a medium blue dragon a few months back, and pinned it so as to keep it from using its breath. She wasn't doing any damage, it it was slapping the heck out of her, but it allowed the rest of the group to hack it to pieces. Not exactly glorious dragon slaying, but it worked. But then again, a large sized monk has a massive advantage in grappling.
Nice story :)
It's like a bit of gritty realism thrown into an otherwise high-fantasy/heroic game.
I'm taking martial arts for the first time in my life, and we're quickly learning that real-life fighting is not at all what we see in movies -- it's chaotic, ugly, and just pain brutal.
Regards,
Jack
It's like a bit of gritty realism thrown into an otherwise high-fantasy/heroic game.
Well for my two cents "gritty" realism would be the dragon rewarding the grapple attempt by stepping on the character with - what is a dragon a few tons - and crushing them like a grape.
But as I have said whatever works for the folks around the table.
To be fair it was only a young adult and he was Large - I didn't know the two size rule, though.
To the breath weapon issue. Can it fire on off while grappling? yes. Can it fire when pinned? NO WAY. When your pinned you are helpless and anyone not grappling you can just waltz over and finish you off. So while pinned the ONLY thing you can do is try to break free. At least thats what I'm remembering for what little that's worth.This is not correct. Read the rules again. If you are pinned you are NOT helpless and cannot be coup de grace'd ("finished off"). Can someone walk up and stab you? Sure, but it is no different from stabbing someone that is grappled.
Careful with declaring things that do not follow the rules as fact. That is half the reason people get confused about how grappling works.
-Shawn S.
Yeah I just double checked awhile ago. My bad, thats why I put the disclaimer. Looking back I can't figure out why I was so sure on that one...........
A few points after reading through MM and DMG.
A dragon's breath weapon is a supernatural ability (not spell-like) and does not suffer an attack of oppurtunity. therefore IMO would not require a concentration check to use in a grapple.
The breath weapon can be used even if the creature cannot breath; although with its mouth pinned shut ....?
When pinned you are immobile not helpless. You cannot coup de grace someone who is pinned.
igi
Dragon Breath is Supernatural not Spell Like ... your right of course - my bad.
I went searching for rules regarding Supernatural Abilities in Grapples and did not really find any. That said the rules for supernatuarl abilities say they can't be disrupted by combat and don't require concentration checks.
I'd still say a Dragon can breath while grappled or pinned. The closest equivalent to supernatural abilities that the rules clearly cover are spell like abilities and a supernatural ability is in many ways analagous to a spell like ability except that it can't be interupted and requires no concentration - in other words its very similier but even easier to utilize by the wielder and more difficult to stop by any opposition. Therefore it stands to reason that if one can use a spell like ability while grappled or pinned one can surely use a supernatural ability.
|
|
I'd still say a Dragon can breath while grappled or pinned. The closest equivalent to supernatural abilities that the rules clearly cover are spell like abilities and a supernatural ability is in many ways analagous to a spell like ability except that it can't be interupted and requires no concentration - in other words its very similier but even easier to utilize by the wielder and more difficult to stop by any opposition. Therefore it stands to reason that if one can use a spell like ability while grappled or pinned one can surely use a supernatural ability.
It is purely a matter of interpretation to rule the way you are suggesting because no where does it *specifically* state that you can't use a breath weapon while pinned. However, I would argue that it is easier to speak than it is to use a breath weapon and the rules for being pinned say that you can be stopped from speaking. To me that means you can be stopped from using a breath weapon also.
-Shawn S.
It seems to me that if a PC wants to try to stop a gout of flame by placing his hand over it, I won't bother asking for a reflex save.
It is purely a matter of interpretation to rule the way you are suggesting because no where does it *specifically* state that you can't use a breath weapon while pinned. However, I would argue that it is easier to speak than it is to use a breath weapon and the rules for being pinned say that you can be stopped from speaking. To me that means you can be stopped from using a breath weapon also.
-Shawn S.
From looking at the rules and how they classify abilities it looks like they favor the idea that breath weapons can be used while pinned. However as a DM and a player I like the idea of wrestling a dragon to the ground and clamping a dragons mouth shut to keep it from breathing fire. A breath weapon can't be stopped by meerly trying to distract the creature, but I'd make an exception for completly disabiling the body part responsible for expelling it.
It is purely a matter of interpretation to rule the way you are suggesting because no where does it *specifically* state that you can't use a breath weapon while pinned. However, I would argue that it is easier to speak than it is to use a breath weapon and the rules for being pinned say that you can be stopped from speaking. To me that means you can be stopped from using a breath weapon also.-Shawn S.
Thats not really my line of argument. I'm not saying you can use a supernatural ability because it does not specifically state that you can't. I'm saying that there are rules around that, while not specifically addressing the question, seem to have some bearing and that these rules are close enough to the question that they shed light on it.
Really I've got two slightly different arguments supporting the idea that one can use a supernatural ability while being grappled or pinned - I'll start with the weaker one.
Argument #1: Is that supernatural abilities are similar to spell like abilities except that they don't require concentration checks. Since the rules are clear that one can use spell like abilities with concentration checks it seems probable that one can likewise use a supernatural ability without a concentration check.
Argument #2: The rules state explicitly that supernatural abilities cannot be disrupted in combat on page 180 of the Players Handbook. I'd argue that grappling and pinning qualify as combat. If you agree with the premise that grappling and pinning is a form of combat then it stands to reason that the rules that say that a supernatural ability cannot be disrupted by combat would apply.
Finally, in terms of Dragons anyway, page 69 of the Monster Manual states specifically that Dragons can always use their Breath Weapon while grappling.
Well, according to that page, it goes back to the "providing it makes a concentration check" as noted above. However, the comment comes after mentioning that its crushing and snatching abilities are covered as per grappling. In other words, I beleive this was mentioned so that if the dragon grapples someone, or if it is grappled in order to do damage, it can still breathe. One way or the other, in my campaign, if you can grapple a dragon (and a half-ogre monk, being large, can grapple a medium young blue dragon), and you opt to pin it, you can keep its mouth clamped shut. I was actually quite pleased with the way the players came up with tactics to deal with the beast quickly, especially since it nearly killed the cleric and knocked the sorcerer out cold in the first round with its breath.
But, then again, mine was the second monk in this thread to get into a rumble with a dragon, and I can't speak to how that particular cage match might have gone down.
Well, according to that page, it goes back to the "providing it makes a concentration check" as noted above. However, the comment comes after mentioning that its crushing and snatching abilities are covered as per grappling. In other words, I beleive this was mentioned so that if the dragon grapples someone, or if it is grappled in order to do damage, it can still breathe. One way or the other, in my campaign, if you can grapple a dragon (and a half-ogre monk, being large, can grapple a medium young blue dragon), and you opt to pin it, you can keep its mouth clamped shut. I was actually quite pleased with the way the players came up with tactics to deal with the beast quickly, especially since it nearly killed the cleric and knocked the sorcerer out cold in the first round with its breath.
Not sure what you are getting at with the first sentance.
Supernatural abilities cannot be disrupted (glossary of PHB) therefore you do not need to make concentration checks to use a breath weapon, ever."Creatures that cannot breath can still use a breathe weapon" DMG. This could be interpreted as: Breath weapons also function even if the dragon cannot breath (although this goes against the 3.0 Draconomicon).
At any rate you could argue that as long as the dragon is capable of getting even the smallest gap between its lips it is capable of using a breath weapon. And if you are so fortunate as to be holding the dragon at that time then you get no save.
igi
Well, according to that page, it goes back to the "providing it makes a concentration check" as noted above. However, the comment comes after mentioning that its crushing and snatching abilities are covered as per grappling. In other words, I beleive this was mentioned so that if the dragon grapples someone, or if it is grappled in order to do damage, it can still breathe...
Well your the DM and if you say the Dragon can't use its breath weapon then it can't. I don't question that.
That said the part on p. 69 being referred to says that a dragon can always use its breath weapon, as well as its spells and spell like natural abilities, provided it succeeds on concentration checks.
I think the requirement for concentration checks are in regards to the second part of the sentence - without this caveat the sentence would say that a dragon did not need to make concentration checks to use spell like natural abilities or spells while grappling so the last part of the sentence about the concentration checks is required. Since supernatural abilities don't require concentration checks a dragon can presumably just always use this ability.
I only meant that the paragraph isn't the most clear in its explanation, but then again, neither was my post.
I was the DM, so I was the one that ruled that the pin would keep it from breathing.
I think that the "breath weapon not requiring breath" has to do explaining undead with breath weapons, as well as creatures that for whatever reason are being sustained without breathing, so as to indicate that they can still breathe.
persistant spell can not be applied to righteous might b/c it uses a spell slot 6 levels higher making that an 11th level spell
The character in question has Extra Turning and Divine Metamagic (burn 6 turn attempst to knock off those pesky six levels)
|
|
I really don't think this comes down to a "letter of the rules" argument at all, I think it comes down to the "spirit of the rules". Being as this is the case, anyone can argue that by the RAW (Rules As Written) a dragon can still breathe while grappled and pinned.
For my part, however, if any PC has got the courage to grapple and pin a dragon (who was foolish enough to get close to an opponent which it did not know the strengths of in the first place) then I'd let them keep it from using it's breath weapon. After all, there are no rules saying that speaking is a supernatural or extraordinary ability, yet the rules under "If You're Pinned By An Opponent" say you can keep someone from speaking. As I said before IMO it is easier to speak then it is to use a breathe weapon, let alone *aim* a breathe weapon with any effectiveness.
To me it just makes the most sense and would probably provide the most fun for the players.
-Shawn S.
People can do wha they want, but as a DM if someone wanted to grapple something big enough to be ridden - well it would go badly for the character.