I've just started the AoW AP, and am thinking more and more about running Shackled City also. However, how does it stack up? Is it better, or worse, or about the same?
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I have to be honest, I have loved Shackled City from the get-go in Dungeon, and started running my PCs through it before the hardcover came out. I've made tons of changes to the SCAP, but it's given me the framework and imagery for an amazing campaign.
I had originallly planned to run the Age of Worms AP as a "spin-off" series. However, as the adventures have come out, my enthusiasm has dimmed. To quote a game designer, it lacks traction with me and my game. But why? I have no straight answer, but I have a few ideas.
- the original imagery pitched in Dungeon was great! Kyuss, necromancer seeks to be a god! But I lost my enthusiasm in the practical application.
- The over-arching plot seems to be fragmented and disjointed compared to SCAP. Dragons, the rod of seven parts, the wind dukes - all good ideas, but they don't seem to tie directly into Kyuss.
- Names. I'm a name geek. Names of people and places have to evoke a sense of atmosphere to my game. Cauldron, the Cagewrights, and the Shackleborn all caught my attention, and the adventure kept me going. The names in AOWAP haven't had the same flair, I'm afraid.
- AOW seems to be missins a Sense of Wonder (tm) - an interdimensional portal to Carceri or a run-down mining operation? It seems to be less high-fantasy, which I would have expected (with Kyuss, godhood, and all).
With all this said, I wouldn't mind being a player in the Age of Worms, and I think a lot of effort has gone into it. It just hasn't struck a chord with me as a DM. Since I've already introduced the idea of the "Age of Worms" into my SCAP campaign (currently engaged in Secrets of the Soul Pillars), I'll likely use it as a very rough inspiration for a home-brew campaign afterwards ... that is, unless Adventure Path #3 comes out before we're done the Shackled City and it catches my imagination ...
I have seen the SCAP criticised for being in one location, a city called Cauldron, which is said to limit the the size of the campaign world because nearly everything happens there.
Well, I'm currently playing AoW and reading the SCAP hardcover in the hope of running it someday and I have to say that SCAP seems a bit more filled out than AoW. Now I'm not sure how much this has to do with it being a hardcover but I'm sure it's not just that.
As Archade says, SCAP is full of intriguing groups; Shalkeborn, Cagewrights, the Last Laugh, the Chisel etc etc..You can even attempt to join some of these groups by taking a prestige class, offering fantastic roleplaying opportunities when tasks the adventurers must complete do not comply with a groups belief.
In AoW, I feel that I am on a railroad, one that is keeping me going speedily in the direction of the path. In SCAP, the path kind of ambles along, making it feel more like a homebrew than an off the shelf product. With so many groups conspiring to do so many things, side adventures would be easy to arrange. And there are a huge amount of NPCs to throw at the PCs.
I don't know about you, but I love reeling off the names of people and for the players to know who they are. By comparison in AoW, NPCs begin to wain after the PCs leave Diamond Lake. You still get them, but the interaction is short before you're moving on to the next one. SCAP has you bumping into familiar faces all the time, sometimes under difficult circumstances.
And regarding the criticism of the size of the Cauldron universe? Well, TBH, you kind of forget that. What with trips to sites outside of the city and also to other planes, it's not too small at all.
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I dealt with the size (and let's face it, gp limit) of Cauldron by using the DMG II guild idea -- if you took the time to belong to a prominent guild (such as the Last Laugh, the Cusp of the Sunrise, etc) you got an increased GP limit. And still, once the players got teleport available as a spell, they'd pop out, grab milk, butter, and a ressurection spell, and be back quick as a wink ...
You summed up my feeling much better than I did -- SCAP feels more alive, organic, and real to me.
- AOW seems to be missing a Sense of Wonder (tm) - an interdimensional portal to Carceri or a run-down mining operation? It seems to be less high-fantasy, which I would have expected (with Kyuss, godhood, and all)
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That's hardly a fair comparison. If I remember the portal to Carceri didn't appear until near the end of SCAP. the rundown mining operation as you put it was in module two. AoW has gladiator fights. It brought back the Ulgurstatsa(sp?) and the Froghemoth! And did you see the picture of Zeech & his "servants" in the last issue?
AOW seems to be missins a Sense of Wonder (tm) - an interdimensional portal to Carceri or a run-down mining operation? It seems to be less high-fantasy, which I would have expected (with Kyuss, godhood, and all).
Bearing in mind what the previous poster brought up, also keep in mind that over the next (and final) adventures, we'll be getting down to the big event, which eventually culminates with appearances by Dragotha, the reborn Kyuss, and other nifty things. Also, we're likely going to use the use for both taht Talisman of the Sphere (assuming the characters kept it), and the Rod of Seven Parts (assuming the characters reatined the part they had), and the other nifty items thye've picked up along the way.
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- AOW seems to be missing a Sense of Wonder (tm) - an interdimensional portal to Carceri or a run-down mining operation? It seems to be less high-fantasy, which I would have expected (with Kyuss, godhood, and all)----------------------------------------------------------------
That's hardly a fair comparison. If I remember the portal to Carceri didn't appear until near the end of SCAP. the rundown mining operation as you put it was in module two. AoW has gladiator fights. It brought back the Ulgurstatsa(sp?) and the Froghemoth! And did you see the picture of Zeech & his "servants" in the last issue?
Yeah the poster boy for the New Quaker Oatmeal Line. For me the AOWAP ended after Champion's belt because by then my group did'nt really care for Diamond Lake anymore (not like Cauldron) and will have protested having to return there yet again. (again unlike Cauldron)
And without SC, AoW would never have happened. I mean in a metaphysical, prophesy-linked way.
I think that one is bound to find inherent pros and cons to each Adventure Path. Though I have only read the first 2 adventures in the AoW path, I can say that they learned from the challenges of SC to solidify the vision that was to be found in AoW. The process had its refining after SC and will have another refining after AoW. Comparing the two stories and ending with which is better is a matter of taste, if you ask me.
-Neomorte
I've just started the AoW AP, and am thinking more and more about running Shackled City also. However, how does it stack up? Is it better, or worse, or about the same?
I prefer the SCAP, hands down. When Dungeon was running the SCAP, I fervently looked forward to every issue. I read, and re-read, every adventure. Not so with the AoWAP.
Archade and Orcwart did a bang up job of listing the things I didn't like about the AoWAP. With AoWAP, I stopped reading after the arena mod. I just haven't been able to get into it. It seems like the campaign is all over the map (in terms of plot) and one of the few things I didn't like from the SCAP (the Ebon Triad) made a comeback in AoW.
With the SCAP, you got to interact with some of the same PCs throughout the entire campaign. With AoWAP, it's like some people make cameos and then it's on to the next guy.
I could go on (and on) about what I like from the SCAP, but I'll just mention three more here: Cauldron to anchor the campaign, the expanded background and campaign information in the hard cover book, and the resources I've discovered through this board. It all combines to make an amazing campaign.
The first adventure of the AoWAP was OK and I absolutely loved the Diamond Lake write up. The Dragon support articles were cool, too, like the article on renovating the house and the potential cohorts/henchmen.
I'm sure I'll be going back through and reading (or re-reading) the mods, but right now SCAP is my AP of choice by far.
I have found that the Age of Worms AP is much more epic in scale. True, it fails to stay focussed in a single place, fails at this miserably, but it has a scope unmatched i think by anything that the Shackled City AP had. In the SCAP, the threat was primarily to Cauldron. If the heroes could save Cauldron, then the mission was complete. With the Age of Worms, however, PC's are forced to travel the realm seeking weapons to destroy Kyuss. It focusses much more on party unity than nostalgia towards a certain place, what with team names and such for the gladiator fight, and not to mention the terrors of Kyuss they must face in only the first couple of adventures. This has bound the party i'm dming together in a way that can only be considered heroic. In short, just a much more grand, epic AP, in my opinion.
Plus, what of the reappearance of Alastor Land in Kings of the Rift? That was truly a cool thing. The look on my players faces was priceless.
I think it comes down to taste. I loved SCAP which surprised me and I am currently running my characters through it. I also looked forward to AOW since SCAP was so well done. However as the AOW modules come out I am finding I am losing interest. For me personally I think its two things:
1) It feels like a much more horror inspired campaign. Which I personally don’t like.
2) Fighting worms doesn’t seem at all heroic to me. No matter how much you modify them. They are still just worms.
I was initially planning on following up SCAP with AOW. Now I have moved AOW down the list (probably run an Incursion campaign next). I will wait for the last few modules for AOW before deciding for sure.
Your mileage may vary.
I'll make the observation that SCAP got a huge polishing when they compiled it. Having started it from the magazines then picked up the book, I now wish I had waited till the book came out (of course I wasn't aware it would) before starting running SCAP. I'd recommend waiting till you see the AoW in book form before you really form an opinion of it if you're not already bound and determined to run it. I know I plan to buy the book and then either I or one of my friends will run it.
Both paths are fairly dungeon crawl heavy, with a bit of a reprieve in AOW's Prince of Redhand, and Library of Last Resort. I find it a little hard to believe that not one, not two, but almost four power groups are sharing real estate beneath a city in a dormant volcano. You have the gnomes of Jzadirune over the Malachite Hold of the dwarves, then there are Kopru Ruins separated from that and then further below that is the lair of the Cagewrights. Nobody would bump into each other? How far can you delve into a volcano, even a dormant one, before it gets a little dangerous to live there? Is it hot (and crowded) in this volcano or is it just me?
Both paths are fairly dungeon crawl heavy, with a bit of a reprieve in AOW's Prince of Redhand, and Library of Last Resort. I find it a little hard to believe that not one, not two, but almost four power groups are sharing real estate beneath a city in a dormant volcano. You have the gnomes of Jzadirune over the Malachite Hold of the dwarves, then there are Kopru Ruins separated from that and then further below that is the lair of the Cagewrights. Nobody would bump into each other? How far can you delve into a volcano, even a dormant one, before it gets a little dangerous to live there? Is it hot (and crowded) in this volcano or is it just me?
I haven't gotten to the Kopru Ruins yet, but they name does imply age. In the first two instances though they were at one point in the past linked, and both are abandoned (a relative term) in the current timeline being used by the same core group of squatters.
I bought the SCAP hardcover read it, and it is now rotting on my shelf while I run AOW (which I am loving). Why did I not run SCAP?
*the one city felt hard to tackle on the first adventure, it did not seem "contained enough", I like to feel my way in, a couple npc's at a time.
*this book had no campaign synopsis, that hurts having to read a whole adventure to get the jist of it. it didnt even have an adventure synopsis... When I read adventures, these are the first things I want to read, not the history of some god/group my players will likely never know about...
*some of the adventures seemed kind of repetitive, "my there are a lot of dungeons under buildings in this city"
Nevertheless I want to run it, maybe after AOW. Maybe if I get a little more confidence. It defintely seems like you'd better be good at roleplaying NPC's with SCAP. AOW does not have this problem, even if you gloss over Allustan, Tenser ect, the adventures are still exciting.
I find it a little hard to believe that not one, not two, but almost four power groups are sharing real estate beneath a city in a dormant volcano. You have the gnomes of Jzadirune over the Malachite Hold of the dwarves, then there are Kopru Ruins separated from that and then further below that is the lair of the Cagewrights.
I never looked at all of them as power groups. I felt like the gnomes of Jzadirune and the dwarves of the Malachite Fortress were just a couple more neighborhoods in Cauldron. Neither complex is a sprawling settlement.
To put this in perspective, the town of Cauldron is roughly 4400 feet in diameter and Jzadirune is about 200 feet in length, so it's less than 5 percent of the distance from one edge of Cauldron to the other; the Malachite Fortress is even smaller. The base of the volcano will be a lot larger than the caldera and from what little I've gleaned in reading about volcanoes, they tend to be several thousand feet in height, minimum, and have long, gentle slopes. This means there is a LOT of real estate to get lost in.
The underdark isn't like Cauldron, either. The Malachite Fortress has exactly two entrances: the lift to Jzadirune and the doors to the underdark. It's pretty easy to never see your neighbor -- or even know they're there -- if you have even just 10 feet of rock between the two of you.
The most basic reason that no one's going to bump into each other is the timing issue. This is pared down from the campaign timeline:
-1,000 years ago -- kopru driven from area by spellweavers
-75 years ago -- Jazdirune abandoned
-31 years ago -- Cagewrights settle into Shatterhorn
-10 years ago -- Malachite Fortress abandoned
-9 years ago -- Triel murders fellow guard
Basically, Jzadirune is empty by the time the Cagewrights move in and the Malachite Fortress is empty by the time the Ebon Triad move in. (Though I'm not sure exactly when the Cagewrights moved in to the Fiery Sanctum. They, too, might have moved in after Zenith left the Malachite Fortress.)
Finally, I don't know what state the volcano's in when the campaign starts. It may be almost dead and pose very little threat to anyone, leaving a lot of space under Cauldron. Until the Cagewrights get a hold of it, that is. :-)
"my there are a lot of dungeons under buildings in this city"
Yeah, but it's all in how you handle it... For my run-through, I'm conveying the age and changes of Cauldron as akin to New York City--there are all sorts of hidden under-layers to the city, and while the surface seems nice, there is much hidden and horrible in the city's past/underbelly (physically and metaphorically). It's a city that once tried to expand down, but couldn't sustain what the people found deep in the volcano... that's some cool mood IMO.
Cheers,
Andrew
p.s. To stay on topic, I haven't seen the AoW path... But the SCAP is great fun to run. And I liked having to read the whole thing to understand the intricacies of what was happening--a plot synopsis (any more than what there is in the start of the book already) would be kind of crummy it seems to me.
I've just started the AoW AP, and am thinking more and more about running Shackled City also. However, how does it stack up? Is it better, or worse, or about the same?
I've run Shackled City through Secrets of the Soul Pillars (13th level) and Age of Worms through Three Faces of Evil (5th level). They are both phenomenal campaigns.
Shackled City has the more realized settings (Cauldron). It has two interwoven story arcs (Cagewrights and Adimarchus) that are sometimes hard to understand. The low and medium level adventures are quite interesting. The high level adventures are sometimes criticized for being a series of fights against singularly powerful NPCs.
Age of Worms has the more realized backstory, incorporating huge chunkcs of D&D history (Kyuss, Wind Dukes, Rod of Seven Parts, Hand of Vecna, Dragotha, etc). As others have mentioned, it is a more epic story (the fate of the world is at stake). Several things I really like about it are the consistent artwork, the huge number of new monsters, and the variety of encounters (designed to allow every character class to shine). The high level adventures include a siege of a giant city by a flight of dragons, an island of gargantuan monsters, and one of the most disturbing dinner parties I've ever seen.
Personally, I plan on running Age of Worms (or parts of it) more than once. I'm not sure I will run Shackled City again.